Hiruzen > Hashirama Proof!

[USSJ Future Trunks]

ra who is weaker than Hashirama; is able to solo 5 kages

you put so much empahsis on the power of edos yet forget edo madaras far stronger than VOTE madara

hiruzen doesnt even know the full extent of hashiramas power. nobody knows. thats why hashiramas power was a myth. the very few that did know tried to tell others and were dismissed because nobody thought such a powerful shinobi could exist.

or they thought he was way stronger than the reality. legends of the past are always exagerrated. hiruzen was completely confident in being able to defeat edo hashirama when hashi looked exactly as hiruzen remembers him.

 

[randomuno]

hiruzen doesnt even know the full extent of hashiramas power. nobody knows. thats why hashiramas power was a myth. the very few that did know tried to tell others and were dismissed because nobody thought such a powerful shinobi could exist.

Oh God! What non-sense is this? Hiruzen knew Hashirama's power better than anyone else. Hashirama was Hiruzen's ****ing teacher!

or they thought he was way stronger than the reality. legends of the past are always exagerrated. hiruzen was completely confident in being able to defeat edo hashirama when hashi looked exactly as hiruzen remembers him.

Exactly! Hashirama was Hiruzen's teacher after all!

 

[EliteKakashi]

I will never figure out why people try and argue whose stronger when they're both god-like ninja who earned reputations most could never dream of...there is no definite answer to who is stronger and there never will be. No sense in arguing about something that can never be resolved.

 

[randomuno]

I will never figure out why people try and argue whose stronger when they're both god-like ninja who earned reputations most could never dream of...there is no definite answer to who is stronger and there never will be. No sense in arguing about something that can never be resolved.

Show me one solid evidence that Hashirama is stronger than Hiruzen. Hiruzen fought Edo-Hashi+Edo-Tobi+Orochimaru when he wasn't even at his prime. Saying that Hiruzen and Hashi are equal, is like saying Naruto and Tenten are equal.

 

[EliteKakashi]

you put so much empahsis on the power of edos yet forget edo madaras far stronger than VOTE madara


or they thought he was way stronger than the reality. legends of the past are always exagerrated. hiruzen was completely confident in being able to defeat edo hashirama when hashi looked exactly as hiruzen remembers him.

Aren't you that same guy who created that thread hating on Hiruzen stating bullshit like he was scared when the kyuubi and was "crying" for Minato?

...Yep, you are.

You must be registered for see links

One heck of an about-face you're pulling here, lol.

 

[Nooby Kyuubi]

Oh God! What non-sense is this? Hiruzen knew Hashirama's power better than anyone else. Hashirama was Hiruzen's ****ing teacher!

yeah but would you think a teacher would go 100% on his pupil? this thread has been made many times before btw :sy:

 

[EliteKakashi]

Show me one solid evidence that Hashirama is stronger than Hiruzen. Hiruzen fought Edo-Hashi+Edo-Tobi+Orochimaru when he wasn't even at his prime. Saying that Hiruzen and Hashi are equal, is like saying Naruto and Tenten are equal.

I would have been willing to actually entertain you, but that statement right there let me know all I needed to.

 

[lol99]

yeah but would you think a teacher would go 100% on his pupil? this thread has been made many times before btw :sy:

lol yeah thats right

i dont think hashirama needed to go full power on anyone other than madara

 

[randomuno]

I would have been willing to actually entertain you, but that statement right there let me know all I needed to.

No really. I am pretty open-minded. But I haven't come across a single piece of credible evidence, sir, that proves that Hashi is stronger than Hiruzen. It intrigues me to think how much powerful Hiruzen-prime would have been. Please read my opening post, I started out very patiently, but many people flamed on me without presenting a single piece of evidence.

So please present arguments, if you can. I always am on lookout for right knowledge!

 

[Nooby Kyuubi]

But isn't that all the fun?

yeah but these theories (hiruzen>hashirama) seem to really tick me off, but i'm maintaining my composure

lol yeah thats right

i dont think hashirama needed to go full power on anyone other than madara

yeah madara is the only one madara would really need to go all out on.

 

[randomuno]

Hashirama was indeed VERY VERY great. He had two unique abilities:

1) Ability to restrain tailed beasts - this one helped him establish balance between villages and end war.
2) He was able to create forests. He was a pro-environment man. Wish we had a Hashirama in real-world.

Hashi probably did more service to the world than ALL THE OTHER KAGES combined

However, does that make him the strongest? Manga says no.

yeah but would you think a teacher would go 100% on his pupil? this thread has been made many times before btw :sy:

Even his Edo-tensei did not go 100% on his pupil?

Also note that Hiruzen was pretty confident about handling Hashi and Tobirama and Orochimaru. This Hiruzen had chakra levels of a genin - he couldn't even use kage bunshin. Just imagine what would have happened if Hiruzen was in his prime. It is for a reason he was called Shinobi no kami - the god of all shinobi.

 

[randomuno]

Tobirama one shots all.

Are you serious? or are you trolling? Old-man Hiruzen defeated Edo-Tobirama; Edo-Hashirama and Orochimaru-prime at ONCE!

 

[FizzyDrink]

WHY WON'T PEOPLE LISTEN!!!!!

There is NO proof on either side saying that one is better than the other. The only proof that is valid is either Kishi himself saying it, or if we know all of their powers, and compare them based off of their actual abilities. That is the only way. The opinion of random villagers/ninja have no actual validity. Deal with this all you Hiruzen/Hashi fans! Seriously.

Oh, and just so you know, Hiruzen lost against Orochimaru. Just saying! That in no way constitutes as actual proof for your claim.

 

[EliteKakashi]

No really. I am pretty open-minded. But I haven't come across a single piece of credible evidence, sir, that proves that Hashi is stronger than Hiruzen. It intrigues me to think how much powerful Hiruzen-prime would have been. Please read my opening post, I started out very patiently, but many people flamed on me without presenting a single piece of evidence.

So please present arguments, if you can. I always am on lookout for right knowledge!

...

Why do I do this to myself?

Anyway..

I don't really look at it as there being a "strongest hokage". I do think, with the knowledge we have at this point, that the 3 that can be considered as such are Hiruzen, Hashirama and Minato. I love what Tsunade has shown against Madara, but I don't think she's on their level. Her medical skills combined with her great(though, like I stated, not on their level) power makes her a fantastic person to be a kage, but she just lacks a little too much to be put on their level.

Tobirama hasn't shown anything. We know he has an imperfect version of edo tensei, space/time ninjutsu on levels similar to that of Minato and his suiton mastery, but we haven't seen anything out of him in battle, really. His battle vs Hiruzen he didn't show very much at all.

Now that that is out of the way, the way I view Hiruzen, Minato and Hashirama is an "advantage" type of scale. I made a post in that thread I linked earlier about USSJ's hate thread on Hiruzen that I'll quote some from:

I don't personally think there is a strongest hokage. Hiruzen has an advantage over Hashirama with Enma, Hiruzen has no answer(that he's shown) to Minato's speed, Minato has nothing that can hurt Hashirama. His speed will be useless, Hashirama would just outlast him.

Simplified version:

Hiruzen has advantage over Hashirama
Minato has advantage over Hiruzen
Hashirama has advantage over Minato

It's like every single matchup of characters with relatively equal skill/power. Minato having an advantage over Hiruzen does not mean Minato is infinitely better or that Hiruzen is weak, it just means that Minato has a certain skill that would work well vs Hiruzen. Same for Hiruzen/Hashi, Hashi/Minato.

If you want to read that entire post, in response to USSJ's hate on Hiruzen, here:

You must be registered for see links

This does not mean I think Hiruzen > Hashirama, Minato > Hiruzen and Hashirama > Minato, it means I think they hold certain advantages over one another. If they were to go all out in battle, there's no telling what would happen, but just basing off what we've seen, those are the advantages I personally see.

I explained later on in that same thread the way I feel Kishi is doing the hokages:

Hiruzen had his time of hype. God Of Shinobi, knowing all techniques in konoha, etc, etc. Just because it was a while back doesn't make it any less relevant. It's Hashirama's turn to receive hype, but for whatever reason, people such as yourself feel the need to turn it in to "well Kishi is stating Hashirama > every hokage", when it's ever so clearly not the case.

If you'd pay attention to the patterns in the series this wouldn't be an issue for you.

I don't believe Kishi has a truly strongest hokage..yes, there are statements for Hiruzen saying that, but there's also statements for Minato(such as Kakashi saying Naruto is the only one who can surpass him), and Hashirama(Madara saying he's the strongest shinobi ever).

As I stated some in that post, and I'll go a little further in to in this one is that each Hokage has had a hype period. This is currently Hashirama's. We had Hiruzen's in part 1, Tsunade now in this war(she had a little in part 1, but she was mostly an unknown), Minato's not too long ago and maybe someday we'll get Tobirama, but he's been credited with edo tensei, suiton mastery and space/time ninjutsu, so I dunno, maybe that's as far as Kishi wants to go with him.

I don't believe one character's hype in regards to power > another(well..I do think Minato/Hiruzen/Hashirama > Tsunade, but that is because Tsunade isn't supposed to be about power).

So no, you're not getting what you're looking for in the sense of "proof that Hashirama > Hiruzen", but you're getting my opinion(that I think is truly Kishi's intent) that those 3 are on equal levels in power.

 

[Nooby Kyuubi]

Even his Edo-tensei did not go 100% on his pupil?

Also note that Hiruzen was pretty confident about handling Hashi and Tobirama and Orochimaru. This Hiruzen had chakra levels of a genin - he couldn't even use kage bunshin. Just imagine what would have happened if Hiruzen was in his prime. It is for a reason he was called Shinobi no kami - the god of all shinobi.

nope, he didn't go 100% as an edo either. he was being controlled by oro so he had no free will, and if he did he wouldn't fight him anyway. i'm not going to go in depth since we don't know their true power at their prime but for madara to say only hashirama can beat him even at an edo state is something. basically, plot no jutsu and different power scales made hiruzen look like a boss, and he must be a boss don't get me wrong that's why he was a kage right? but compared to hashirama, sorry.

 

[randomuno]

...

Why do I do this to myself?

Anyway..

I don't really look at it as there being a "strongest hokage". I do think, with the knowledge we have at this point, that the 3 that can be considered as such are Hiruzen, Hashirama and Minato. I love what Tsunade has shown against Madara, but I don't think she's on their level. Her medical skills combined with her great(though, like I stated, not on their level) power makes her a fantastic person to be a kage, but she just lacks a little too much to be put on their level.

Tobirama hasn't shown anything. We know he has an imperfect version of edo tensei, space/time ninjutsu on levels similar to that of Minato and his suiton mastery, but we haven't seen anything out of him in battle, really. His battle vs Hiruzen he didn't show very much at all.

Now that that is out of the way, the way I view Hiruzen, Minato and Hashirama is an "advantage" type of scale. I made a post in that thread I linked earlier about USSJ's hate thread on Hiruzen that I'll quote some from:



If you want to read that entire post, in response to USSJ's hate on Hiruzen, here:

You must be registered for see links

This does not mean I think Hiruzen > Hashirama, Minato > Hiruzen and Hashirama > Minato, it means I think they hold certain advantages over one another. If they were to go all out in battle, there's no telling what would happen, but just basing off what we've seen, those are the advantages I personally see.

I explained later on in that same thread the way I feel Kishi is doing the hokages:



I don't believe Kishi has a truly strongest hokage..yes, there are statements for Hiruzen saying that, but there's also statements for Minato(such as Kakashi saying Naruto is the only one who can surpass him), and Hashirama(Madara saying he's the strongest shinobi ever).

As I stated some in that post, and I'll go a little further in to in this one is that each Hokage has had a hype period. This is currently Hashirama's. We had Hiruzen's in part 1, Tsunade now in this war(she had a little in part 1, but she was mostly an unknown), Minato's not too long ago and maybe someday we'll get Tobirama, but he's been credited with edo tensei, suiton mastery and space/time ninjutsu, so I dunno, maybe that's as far as Kishi wants to go with him.

I don't believe one character's hype in regards to power > another(well..I do think Minato/Hiruzen/Hashirama > Tsunade, but that is because Tsunade isn't supposed to be about power).

So no, you're not getting what you're looking for in the sense of "proof that Hashirama > Hiruzen", but you're getting my opinion(that I think is truly Kishi's intent) that those 3 are on equal levels in power.

This completely clears it up. So you are saying that Hashirama > Minato > Hiruzen > Hashirama. Now that makes a LOT of sense. Reading your post made a lot of sense. Thanks man!

How do I rep you? and friend you?

 

[TheSages456]

the moment someones power is stated to be a myth that means that people didnt believe in that persons strength. since people didnt believe in that persons strength, from that point on you evaluate feats and use common sense to figure out whos stronger.

any neutral person sees that hashirama is stronger than hiruzen.

there is two people:
for person 1, people have seen and called him the strongest but have never seen the other person.

for the 2nd person, his power was stated to be a myth which means that everytime someone heard about his strength they disregarded what they heard because they didnt think someone so strong could exist. this person also has superior feats and has defeated someone who is on another level to person 1.

 

[lol99]

think of it as this way

if kakashi had not been introduced along with naruto from the very beginning and had only been referred to by other characters you would have been amazed by it.
you would have thought oh its the copy ninja with a thousand techniques, he is super powerful and he can't be beaten

but since we know kakashi very well we know where he stands xd

Prime hiruzen is the same thing

and yes even the edo versions did not go full power

 

[EliteKakashi]

This completely clears it up. So you are saying that Hashirama > Minato > Hiruzen > Hashirama. Now that makes a LOT of sense. Reading your post made a lot of sense. Thanks man!

How do I rep you? and friend you?

No, I don't believe that to be 100% fact. Just that they have certain advantages over one another. In an all-out fight, anything could happen. You should read it more as Hiruzen=Hashirama=Minato.

 

[randomuno]

No, I don't believe that to be 100% fact. Just that they have certain advantages over one another. In an all-out fight, anything could happen. You should read it more as Hiruzen=Hashirama=Minato.

Okay, I am willing to go with that.