Hiruzen (god debate)

[obscoral]

hiruzen = god of those fools who believe he is a god

 

[Owarij]

hiruzen = god of those fools who believe he is a god

so the whole of konoha and other villages?

 

[glamo]

Guys, let's think this through.Hiruzen defeated Hashirama and Tobirama in part 1 who i believe were at full strenght, only that Kishi didn't know how to make them that powerful without introducing the Bijuu's, the Senju clan etc first.So I believe that a part 2 Hiruzen is still more powerful than both 1st and 2nd Hogakes and the only reason Hashi is so hyped is because he is Senju and you know the whole Senju vs Uchiha story, for the plot.Besides, maybe Madara didn't even know prime Hiruzen, that's why he never talked about him

 

[iknowwhotobiis]

The manga has made it very clearly who is the stronger between the two. I do not see people tomb raiding for hiruzen dna...

 

[Thewargoeson]

he cant do ftg he would have used it who wouldnt use it and saying oh it doesnt fit his style thats just stupid all he has to do is mark a place.
if he did know ftg then it most likely would be the one his body guards know and he cant do chidori as he needs lightning style and when it says all konaha jutsu i believe it means the standard jutsu like shadow clone its the jutsu the village created not just a single shinobi

its possible tht tht is the FTG he knew, but its still an FTG
i rly dont think ud be hailed as a god for knowing the standard jutsu's. anyone can do tht. as far as the elements he can use. im assuming all. since he was said to know all existing konoha ninjutsu, tht wud include a wind,fire,earth,lightning, and water technique

hiruzen prime = jiraiya as a genin/chunin, if youre going to reference jutsu's at least do so with those that actually existed during the time hiruzen was known as the professor or those that arnt inherited by blood

people talking about raikiri and blood line limits :sy:

He was known as the professor his whole life and as we know he never stopped learning ninjutsu (rds). as i said in the thread, "he can use all existing konoha ninjutsu except for KG (blood line limits).
and raikiri isnt a KG its a jst a lightning technique

 

[obscoral]

so the whole of konoha and other villages?

a proof of whole konoha and other villages believing hiruzen is god?

U_U

 

[AlexXx]

hmmm you cant even call so6p god. he is more like abraham. you know why

 

[Thewargoeson]

The manga has made it very clearly who is the stronger between the two. I do not see people tomb raiding for hiruzen dna...

how as it made it clear?
people tomb raided hashi bcuz his cells are unique and with them u cud get to knew ninjutsu.
it doesnt mean he's stronger? it means he had a KG everyone wanted. they wudnt tomb raid hiruzen cuz all his strength came from pure talent. he had no KG (for all we know)

 

[yuan of cruxis]

Don't get me wrong, Hiruzen was strong, but I just don't think he's a god Shinobi like Hashirama.

Hashirama cant compare to Hiruzen
Hiruzen both him and his brother

 

[Strata Uchiha]

A = Plural

there were TWO god of shinobi's in this manga

hiruzen and so6p.. that's why plural was used..

as for your existing..
ORO used past tense... existing means operating at a current time..

Hiruzen no longer knew all the existing justu of the leaf.. But at ONE TIME in the past.. he knew them all and was given the title professor by konoha villagers

Moreover, Kishimoto is a TROLL!!!

We don't know really what Hiruzen can do because he's only been in "one" fight when he's "old and busted."

We're never gonna get to see what he could do in his prime. I kid you not, if we saw what he could do in all of his "godly glory" then people would be on the Hiruzen's bandwagon so fast!

Also, not many Kage's can come out of retirement and fight the creme de la creme shinobi like Orochimaru and Hashirama/Tobirama at the same time.

 

[iknowwhotobiis]

how as it made it clear?
people tomb raided hashi bcuz his cells are unique and with them u cud get to knew ninjutsu.
it doesnt mean he's stronger? it means he had a KG everyone wanted. they wudnt tomb raid hiruzen cuz all his strength came from pure talent. he had no KG (for all we know)

First, you do not have enough information on hiruzen to say it was pure talent. Hashirama cells are wanted not only because of the KG. They empower other jusus such KA, izanagi and probably izanami. They can surpress bijuus chakra, empower one´s physical strength and can make one immortal (as hinted by tsunade). She said something along the lines tobi might be immortal if he does have access to hashi cells. And i have not touched the fact that he was the most powerful shinobi during the war time and beat madara + kyuubi. Now please tell me what is hiruzen prime and power. Besides the "knowing all existing jutsus" power because even kakashi knows a 1000 and he is not top 10 imo.

 

[yuan of cruxis]

Hashirama was god, Hiruzen wasnt. End

So Hiruzen beat a God and that Gods brother at the same time

Well i didnt think something could trancend a God

 

[Owarij]

First, you do not have enough information on hiruzen to say it was pure talent. Hashirama cells are wanted not only because of the KG. They empower other jusus such KA, izanagi and probably izanami. They can surpress bijuus chakra, empower one´s physical strength and can make one immortal (as hinted by tsunade). She said something along the lines tobi might be immortal if he does have access to hashi cells. And i have not touched the fact that he was the most powerful shinobi during the war time and beat madara + kyuubi. Now please tell me what is hiruzen prime and power. Besides the "knowing all existing jutsus" power because even kakashi knows a 1000 and he is not top 10 imo.

kakashi knows 1000 jutsu

hiruzen knows like over 2000.. 1000 of them being genjutsu alone..

Hiruzen prime has 5's all across the border.. kakashi doesn't have that..
hiruzen has more experience and has enma..
the summoning that if kishi went along with the monkey king myth..

would have 72 transformations (We saw 2 in the manga, staff and cage)
would have water release, wind release, and can combine them both to make cloud release..


Kishi said that both hiruzen in prime and enma together were a undefeatable powerhouse

First, you do not have enough information on hiruzen to say it was pure talent. Hashirama cells are wanted not only because of the KG. They empower other jusus such KA, izanagi and probably izanami. They can surpress bijuus chakra, empower one´s physical strength and can make one immortal (as hinted by tsunade)

Wrong on a few counts, hashirama's dna can't make any human immortal..

his dna is wanted because it's special, he has a bijuu suppressing ability, and for uchihas, it empowers their uchiha abilities..

what point are you really trying to make?
Just because juugo has a cool ability to absorb nature energy, and lets say sasori doesn't
does that mean juugo> sasori?
For fk sakes , it's a kkg, that has NOTHING to do with anything.... They want his dna because he's a descendant of the so6p, and it has nifty abilities.. NONE of which made him any god or strongest ninja

How as it made it clear?
people tomb raided hashi bcuz his cells are unique and with them u cud get to knew ninjutsu.
it doesnt mean he's stronger? it means he had a KG everyone wanted. they wudnt tomb raid hiruzen cuz all his strength came from pure talent. he had no KG (for all we know)

Jeez, i don't get how people don't understand this...
Hashirama was NOT the strongest ninja ever, even KABUTO said that..

a proof of whole konoha and other villages believing hiruzen is god?

Read databooks 1,2 and 3

read iruka's statement in the manga and kabuto's statement in the manga , then come back to me

And noone thought he was an actual god... he was praised for being a shinobi god.. even his summoning enma said before he died, that he has mastered all forms of shinobi combat before his end..

 

[Prime Rib]

people dont understand the term "god of shinobi" and they think sense he died fightning oro that he wasnt good? umm hello dumbasss people this guy was like over 70 years old. not only that did you not notice he was able to take on oro the first and 2nd hokage all together?? yeah so imagine this guy in his prime so gtfo haters

 

[yuan of cruxis]

First, you do not have enough information on hiruzen to say it was pure talent. Hashirama cells are wanted not only because of the KG. They empower other jusus such KA, izanagi and probably izanami. They can surpress bijuus chakra, empower one´s physical strength and can make one immortal (as hinted by tsunade). She said something along the lines tobi might be immortal if he does have access to hashi cells. And i have not touched the fact that he was the most powerful shinobi during the war time and beat madara + kyuubi. Now please tell me what is hiruzen prime and power. Besides the "knowing all existing jutsus" power because even kakashi knows a 1000 and he is not top 10 imo.

It doesnt make you immortal
It thats true Danzo wouldnt have died

 

[iknowwhotobiis]

kakashi knows 1000 jutsu

hiruzen knows like over 2000.. 1000 of them being genjutsu alone..

Hiruzen prime has 5's all across the border.. kakashi doesn't have that..
hiruzen has more experience and has enma..
the summoning that if kishi went along with the monkey king myth..

would have 72 transformations (We saw 2 in the manga, staff and cage)
would have water release, wind release, and can combine them both to make cloud release..


Kishi said that both hiruzen in prime and enma together were a undefeatable powerhouse


Wrong on a few counts, hashirama's dna can't make any human immortal..

his dna is wanted because it's special, he has a bijuu suppressing ability, and for uchihas, it empowers their uchiha abilities..

what point are you really trying to make?
Just because juugo has a cool ability to absorb nature energy, and lets say sasori doesn't
does that mean juugo> sasori?
For fk sakes , it's a kkg, that has NOTHING to do with anything.... They want his dna because he's a descendant of the so6p, and it has nifty abilities.. NONE of which made him any god or strongest ninja

yes I undestand hiruzen was extremely powerful but the manga does not provide enough evidence to clearly say hiruzen > hashirama because in my eyes hashirama power derived from his hype i know, It is still greater than hiruzen´s in his prime.

And please can you provide the source for Kishi said that both hiruzen in prime and enma together were a undefeatable powerhouse

So you are saying tsunade was wrong when she said madara might be immortal "tobi" if he has access to hashi cells?!

Well even if enma had 72 transformation, cloud release, and hiruzen knew over 9 thousand jutsus. I would still say hashi is stronger because he is a direct descendant of the so6p. That is my opinion on the matter.

It doesnt make you immortal
It thats true Danzo wouldnt have died

danzo was imperfect. He could not even control the first cells properly as it consumed wayyy too much chakra. And he only implemented in his arm not the whole body.

 

[Owarij]

yes I undestand hiruzen was extremely powerful but the manga does not provide enough evidence to clearly say hiruzen > hashirama because in my eyes hashirama power derived from his hype i know. It is still greater than hiruzen´s in his prime.

Hashirama' Hype , is NOWHERE better than hiruzen's hype


1) God of shinobi - That alone beats anything hashirama has ever had... There has been only two shinobi gods,, so6p and hiruzen..
For people to have called hiruzen a shinobi god , means he had to have mastered all the elements, and done things normal ninja couldn't do...


For hashirama's hype, what does he have?- Stronger than the 5 kage


Hiruzen was also said to be stronger than the 5 kage IN HIS old age... now imagine his prime


Hashiirama has- His strength seemed like a fairytail to some

In that scan, right after that, you clearly see kabuto say all the other ninja who are on his level are currently DEAD/Not alive anymore

^ So this man was in no way the strongest... if there are other ninjas who could compete with him, who are dead

list them.. List who you think kabuto was talking about..

And please can you provide the source for Kishi said that both hiruzen in prime and enma together were a undefeatable powerhouse

Go Find enma's databook article, it's under that

because he is a direct descendant of the so6p. That is my opinion on the matter

So all descendants of the so6p are the strongest? :S

tsunade? is senju, explain her.. nawaki, obito, those konoha police uchiha people itachi beat...
your reasoning is flawed ... but it's your opinion so meh

Spoiler

The Monkey Ancient Sandaime Hokage summons by means of a blood pact. A war veteran and a powerhouse, he was always to be found as Sandaime's right hand man, together with him on the battlefield they were undefeatable. His fighting strength and the brilliance of his combat experience leave no leeway to imitators.
Enma's connection with Sandaime is built on deep and cordial trust, enough for him to bluntly offer his advice on occasion. Rather than master-servant their relationship should be depicted as that of a unique couple of brother-in-arms. As he was involved even in Sandaime's fate with Orochimaru, he has a profound understanding of his heart's suffering.

The Monkey Ancient who travelled across a world of extreme chaos and conflicts alongside Sandaime!!

-That ain't like you... What's going on?

Picture comments

-He understands the pain of Sandaime, who was unable to stop Orochimaru when he was starting to develop his inhuman, amoral techniques.

-Sandaime fell protecting Konoha from Orochimaru's evil schemes. Enma took care of the one who'd been his brother-in-arms for so long in his last moments.

 

[iknowwhotobiis]

Hashirama' Hype , is NOWHERE better than hiruzen's hype


1) God of shinobi - That alone beats anything hashirama has ever had... There has been only two shinobi gods,, so6p and hiruzen..
For people to have called hiruzen a shinobi god , means he had to have mastered all the elements, and done things normal ninja couldn't do...


For hashirama's hype, what does he have?- Stronger than the 5 kage


Hiruzen was also said to be stronger than the 5 kage IN HIS old age... now imagine his prime


Hashiirama has- His strength seemed like a fairytail to some

In that scan, right after that, you clearly see kabuto say all the other ninja who are on his level are currently DEAD/Not alive anymore

^ So this man was in no way the strongest... if there are other ninjas who could compete with him, who are dead

list them.. List who you think kabuto was talking about..



Go Find enma's databook article, it's under that



So all descendants of the so6p are the strongest? :S

tsunade? is senju, explain her.. nawaki, obito, those konoha police uchiha people itachi beat...
your reasoning is flawed ... but it's your opinion so meh

Didnt the OP just clarify that he was regarded as a god meaning that they were more?! And there is no where in the manga that has stated that the there are only two. Yes hiruzen has been said to be the strongest hokage among the 5 but madara said hashi is better than the 5 kages together (a major difference). In addition, there is no one alive from hashi era (i could be wrong) besides kakuso I think. So he probably has been forgotten since he is only a fairly tale. While hiruzen is from this current era so obviously this generation will regard him as a god or whatever you want to call him. Only a person from hashi era (madara) knows how powerful he was.

Regarding your other points, no the other senju are not the strongest because the blood gets thinner with every generation. Tobirama + hashi were probably born with extra life force hence thats why they seek for hashi cells and not senju cells.

 

[Owarij]

Didnt the OP just clarify that he was regarded as a god meaning that they were more?! And there is no where in the manga that has stated that the there are only two of gods. Yes hiruzen has been said to be the strongest hokage among the 5 but madara said hashi is better than the 5 kages together (a major difference). In addition, there is no one alive from hashi era (i could be wrong) besides kakuso I think. So he probably has been forgotten since he is only a fairly tale. While hiruzen is from this current era so obviously this generation will regard him as a god or whatever you want to call him. Only a person from hashi era (madara) knows how powerful he is.

wtF?

There are elders in the village, dazno is dead now, but he lived in hashi and tobirama's time, he was on tobirama's squad...
all the daiymo are extremely old

jiraya, tsunade and orochimaru all remember him.. MANY people would have seen tobirama and hashiram..

you think everyone in the village is 30 years and less?...

You do realize there are konoha history books, lessons?on the hokage?

How do you think Minato knows tobirama was a skilled s/t jutsu

how do you think kakashi knows about hashirama?

god

Didnt the OP just clarify that he was regarded as a god meaning that they were more?

There are only two shinobi godsd in this manga, SO6P and hiruzen... This is why plural was used , try again

 

[iknowwhotobiis]

wtF?

There are elders in the village, dazno is dead now, but he lived in hashi and tobirama's time, he was on tobirama's squad...
all the daiymo are extremely old

jiraya, tsunade and orochimaru all remember him.. MANY people would have seen tobirama and hashiram..

you think everyone in the village is 30 years and less?...

as any of those elders stated that hiruzen is a god or the strongest?! I dont think so.

I meant people that saw him during the war time before konoha was established.