-> Hirashin users lose to EMS Madara

[Behemoth55]

However, the area can coenclose no big surface. Otherwise Minato would have selected absolutely a strategically better point to attack there.

Spoiler

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[Minator93]

@ #1) Speculation.

@ @2) ...

@#3) Those tiny spikes aren't responsible for Susano'o. You're being fooled by the time skip between panels. By the time the final panel [after teleportation] was shown, they were already being teleported Minato's Kunai. Susano'o was evaporated between then. We've already seen how Obito's Omnyoudon works: those tiny spikes could never have destroyed the large chunk of Susano'o that you're supposedly saying was left behind. You're pulling at straws.


@#4) Let me get this correctly, Minato_R3: You're under the belief that Tobirama and Minato's Chakra pools are comparable to Madara's?

"Because a character has never been seen facing a particular jutsu, it automatically means it can't work on them"

Your reasoning ^ is fallacious. You'll have to do better, in order to entertain me. ​

1. Not speculating. Manga facts aren't speculation.

2. The Hiraishin User can teleport to or teleport something after the chakra link or a physical contact is formed.

3. Susanoo can't evaporate at FTG's speed and that's clear as a day. We've already seen it many times that it takes time for a Susanoo to evaporate, can't be compared with FTG's speed which technically [it's a space time ninjutsu] is greater than speed of light. This right here is a non-refutable thing. Also Susanoo is nothing but users chakra which can be used by the Hiraishin users against Susanoo User to form the said chakra link and deal with it by 4 ways I had listed.

4. Madara himself put Tobirama on his level. Also I think that Naruto posses a larger chakra pool than Madara. His father Minato is a perfect Sage as senn even though he's not as skilled as Naruto but the fact remains that he has achieved a perfect sage mode, now what do we know of perfect SM?

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Minato's better than Tobirama who is on EMS Madara's level [said by Madara himself]

4.2 If that's so then Minato 1-shots Madara with sound genjutsu because Sound Genjutsu bypasses even the Susanoo and doesn't affect the user or SM user which Minato is [thanks to Ma and Pa] and Madara isn't.

Two can play the Genjutsu game. Minato falls to visual genjutsu by you, then Madara gets 1-shotted by sound Genjutsu.

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Hope you can still dance.

 

[Behemoth55]

4.2 If that's so then Minato 1-shots Madara with sound genjutsu because Sound Genjutsu bypasses even the Susanoo and doesn't affect the user or SM user which Minato is [thanks to Ma and Pa] and Madara isn't.

Even Tendō could stop Shima and Fukasaku to use Magen Gama Rinshō, because this Genjutsu needs a lot of Senchakra. Madara on the other hand has the Mangekyo Sharingan and the ability to see through Jutsu(Genjutsu included).
Minato himself doesn't even have a Genjutsu.


Not speculating. Manga facts aren't speculation.

 

[Gold Lightning]

Even Tendō could stop Shima and Fukasaku to use Magen Gama Rinshō, because this Genjutsu needs a lot of Senchakra. Madara on the other hand has the Mangekyo Sharingan and the ability to see through Jutsu(Genjutsu included).
Minato himself doesn't even have a Genjutsu.


Not speculating. Manga facts aren't speculation.

if they're attached to Minato's shoulders them they won't be taken out so easily. By your logic, sasuke and itachi should have been able to see through Kabutos genjutsu.

 

[Minator93]

Even Tendō could stop Shima and Fukasaku to use Magen Gama Rinshō, because this Genjutsu needs a lot of Senchakra. Madara on the other hand has the Mangekyo Sharingan and the ability to see through Jutsu(Genjutsu included).
Minato himself doesn't even have a Genjutsu.

Not speculating. Manga facts aren't speculation.

Tendo is a dead corps with Rinnegan which is connected to Nagato who himself never fell for any jutsu, EMS Madara however is a living body. And Sound Genjutsu already bypassed Susanoo and pretty much ended Uchiha Brothers. Now theses are the facts and not a speculation like " Madara on the other hand has the Mangekyo Sharingan and the ability to see through Jutsu(Genjutsu included)." I wonder if he could see though Tobirama's Hiraishingiri :rolleye: if he could his brother might have been saved. I also wonder if Sasuke could see threough jutusu because he doesn't seem to understand half of all jutsus Lol Even Itachi failed to grasp few jutsus and he was said to be the best!

 

[Waltz]

1. Not speculating. Manga facts aren't speculation.

2. The Hiraishin User can teleport to or teleport something after the chakra link or a physical contact is formed.

3. Susanoo can't evaporate at FTG's speed and that's clear as a day. We've already seen it many times that it takes time for a Susanoo to evaporate, can't be compared with FTG's speed which technically [it's a space time ninjutsu] is greater than speed of light. This right here is a non-refutable thing. Also Susanoo is nothing but users chakra which can be used by the Hiraishin users against Susanoo User to form the said chakra link and deal with it by 4 ways I had listed.

4. Madara himself put Tobirama on his level. Also I think that Naruto posses a larger chakra pool than Madara. His father Minato is a perfect Sage as senn even though he's not as skilled as Naruto but the fact remains that he has achieved a perfect sage mode, now what do we know of perfect SM?

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Minato's better than Tobirama who is on EMS Madara's level [said by Madara himself]

4.2 If that's so then Minato 1-shots Madara with sound genjutsu because Sound Genjutsu bypasses even the Susanoo and doesn't affect the user or SM user which Minato is [thanks to Ma and Pa] and Madara isn't.

Two can play the Genjutsu game. Minato falls to visual genjutsu by you, then Madara gets 1-shotted by sound Genjutsu.

---

Hope you can still dance.

Susano'o would be evaporating at FTG's speed as that is the speed at which it was traveling. It's not impossible for a shinobi to make bodily functions while traveling at such speeds. Tsunade and Ei while being transferred were capable of forming a kick to counter both Mu and Madara without either noticing this happen. It is not that they are that fast but that they were moving at the transfer speed. The faster an entity move, the more time slows down around it. If FTG was faster than the speed of light then Minato would be able to time travel, hoping your familiar with Einsteins work and the Mechanics of Hirashin.

Madara put Tobirama on his level? Funny....You're quite the subtle individual to be selectively using information but it will amount to nothing. Truth is, Tobirama never stood a chance against Madara. ​

Minato's better than Tobirama who is on EMS Madara's level

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You never fail to amuse me. ​

FTG user can decide what to teleport

Minato already showed to capacity to decide what to teleport regardless if he made a direct/indirect contact with a target, as shown when he teleported Kyubi while leaving Gamabunta behind despite Gamabunta was actually the one he made contact with [

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He did the same thing while saving Naruto and Sasuke against Jubito. Jubito was indirectly connected to him through Naruto and Sasuke(by grabbing their heads to crush them), yet Minato left them behind

So if contact is made with Madara's Susanoo, he can directly teleport Madara outside since Madara is indirectly connected through the Susanoo chakra

Yeah, here lies the subjectivity. ​

Nice thread Waltz. You know I don't like you, but still nice.

It would have been nice had you introduced the element of intricate Chakra connection. Susano'o is more or less an outward, ethereal manifestation of the inner chakra network, metamorphosed into a colossal form via the reaction from the Twin-MS. It, in other words, is intricately connected to where the user's Chakra Reserves lie. For example, it was shown to fluctuate in the exact same manner as Itachi's Chakra's were dwindling during his fight with Hebi Sasuke. Or how Taka Sasuke's Susano'o lost its tier as soon as his reserves dwindled.

My point being, there is no evidence to suggest that FTG has any workings beyond chakra manifestations that are not intricately connected. It warping away a form that rises and falls in credence with user's chakra is a far-fecthed logic, unsupported by manga.

Good thread regardless.

Nice thought, I've never examined it from that angle. ​

 

[Behemoth55]

Tendo is a dead corps with Rinnegan which is connected to Nagato who himself never fell for any jutsu,

That doesn't change anything. Tendo stopped Fukasaku and Shima before they could use Magen Gama Rinshō, otherwise their Genjutsu would have affected the flow of chakra in his body and Nagato coudn't have controlled him anymore with Kokushin.

EMS Madara however is a living body. And Sound Genjutsu already bypassed Susanoo and pretty much ended Uchiha Brothers.

Even Shikamaru could break Mateki Mugen Onsa. Sure, that Jutsu would have ended the fight. That's why Sasuke and Itachi could use furthermore Dōjutsu and talked with Kabuto about the weather.

Now theses are the facts and not a speculation like " Madara on the other hand has the Mangekyo Sharingan and the ability to see through Jutsu(Genjutsu included)."

To see through Illusions is basically an ability of the Sharingan, Minator. That's no speculation.

 

[TrollingSage]

That doesn't change anything. Tendo stopped Fukasaku and Shima before they could use Magen Gama Rinshō, otherwise their Genjutsu would have affected the flow of chakra in his body and Nagato coudn't have controlled him anymore with Kokushin.


Even Shikamaru could break Mateki Mugen Onsa. Sure, that Jutsu would have ended the fight. That's why Sasuke and Itachi could use furthermore Dōjutsu and talked with Kabuto about the weather.


To see through Illusions is basically an ability of the Sharingan, Minator. That's no speculation.

Itachi and Sasuke cast gen jutsu on each other to counter gen jutsu. We're talking about EMS Madara, alone. That fact is completely irrelevant.

 

[Bogard]

Yeah, here lies the subjectivity. ​

So basically your entire thread is about the capacity of the Hiraishin user to counter Susanoo and when i show you how easily it is and you can't counter, you ignore the argument by implementing a scenario where the hiraishin user would magically not touch Susanoo?

 

[Minator93]

Susano'o would be evaporating at FTG's speed as that is the speed at which it was traveling. It's not impossible for a shinobi to make bodily functions while traveling at such speeds. Tsunade and Ei while being transferred were capable of forming a kick to counter both Mu and Madara without either noticing this happen. It is not that they are that fast but that they were moving at the transfer speed. The faster an entity move, the more time slows down around it. If FTG was faster than the speed of light then Minato would be able to time travel, hoping your familiar with Einsteins work and the Mechanics of Hirashin.

Madara put Tobirama on his level? Funny....You're quite the subtle individual to be selectively using information but it will amount to nothing. Truth is, Tobirama never stood a chance against Madara. ​

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You never fail to amuse me. ​

Yeah, here lies the subjectivity. ​

Nice thought, I've never examined it from that angle. ​

The thing is Zetsu already confirmed that Obito travels @ light's speed and I have that scan, I also have scan which proves Hiraishin being faster than Kamui.

Einstein's theories doesn't work in Kishimoto's manga sadly. Heck if Kishimoto knew Einstein, he wouldn't have been a mangaka Lol

Susanoo being undone @ a speed grater than light's is impossible, it was left where Obito was.

 

[Behemoth55]

Itachi and Sasuke cast gen jutsu on each other to counter gen jutsu. We're talking about EMS Madara, alone. That fact is completely irrelevant.

I mean that:

(Translated from the databook)

An other ability of the Sharingans is his connection with Genjutsu. It strengthens the illusions of the user and relieves to this as a countermove escaping hostile illusions.

 

[TrollingSage]

So basically your entire thread is about the capacity of the Hiraishin user to counter Susanoo and when i show you how easily it is and you can't counter, you ignore the argument by implementing a scenario where the hiraishin user would magically not touch Susanoo?

In a nutshell. Eventhough there hasn't been a single instance in the manga where a susano user has selectively made only some parts of his susano intagible.

 

[Behemoth55]

In a nutshell. Eventhough there hasn't been a single instance in the manga where a susano user has selectively made only some parts of his susano intagible.

Would Susanoos sword matter in your opinion?

 

[TrollingSage]

Would Susanoos sword matter in your opinion?

What do you mean?

 

[Valhorus]

So basically your entire thread is about the capacity of the Hiraishin user to counter Susanoo and when i show you how easily it is and you can't counter, you ignore the argument by implementing a scenario where the hiraishin user would magically not touch Susanoo?

It is easier to ignore than to counter that argument.

 

[Retsu]

I mean that:

(Translated from the databook)

An other ability of the Sharingans is his connection with Genjutsu. It strengthens the illusions of the user and relieves to this as a countermove escaping hostile illusions.

doesn't mean it can stop all hostile illusions, as evidenced by the fact that sasuke and Itachi could not break out of tayuya's sound based genjutsu without help from each other.

 

[Sennin of Logic]

It is easier to ignore than to counter that argument.

Isn't that the truth? I made a lengthy and detailed counter near the bottom page 2, yet no one ever addressed it.

 

[Bronze]

ok i think you have misunderstood something here -.-

i am saying that the mark on the Kunai has a radius -.-

minato can teleport to any seal as he wishes no matter how far the seal is away from him.. however! there is a distance around the seal in which minato can teleport to.. this here is the radius of the FTG mark on the kunai.. and as i have previously said this Radius can be utilised to minato's advantage

what you are basically saying is that minato can teleport to a kunai and then appear a thousand metres away from it.. or you are basically saying he appears directly on top of it... this is clearly not the case -.-

EDIT: anyways il be off at this point so if i dont reply it does not mean i am admitting defeat but i will address whatever further points you have to add later on..

Is there any Manga scan or Databook page supporting the claim you're making? Because I don't remember FTG requires a distance or radius.

Right, which is why I mention, logically, reasonably, and common sense. Water Dragon can still be dangerous.

Even the basic Suiton via Water Wave can be dangerous with Tobirama's pressurize skills.

If you want to go by logic, reasoning, and common sense...Tobirama's Suiton wont wash off Madara's Katon, something that you denied.

 

[Valhorus]

Isn't that the truth? I made a lengthy and detailed counter near the bottom page 2, yet no one ever addressed it.

True , my friend . Good arguments are getting ignored or delicately diverted .

 

[Waltz]

The thing is Zetsu already confirmed that Obito travels @ light's speed and I have that scan, I also have scan which proves Hiraishin being faster than Kamui.

Einstein's theories doesn't work in Kishimoto's manga sadly. Heck if Kishimoto knew Einstein, he wouldn't have been a mangaka Lol

Susanoo being undone @ a speed grater than light's is impossible, it was left where Obito was.

The bold is my issue and I would only agree to it if you're comparing Hirashin to Kamui's warp torque and not the actual time it takes to transport a warped object across dimensions or the same plane, whether reality or Kamui's plane.

@Underlined:

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A wormhole, also known as an Einstein–Rosen bridge, is a hypothetical topological feature of spacetime that would fundamentally be a "shortcut" through spacetime. A wormhole is much like a tunnel with two ends each in separate points in spacetime. For a simplified notion of a wormhole, visualize space as a two-dimensional (2D) surface. In this case, a wormhole can be pictured as the 2D surface of a tube that connects different parts of the surface. The mouths of a wormhole are analogous to the holes at either end of the tube in a 2D plane....

@Red: The only thing you have to support that statesmen is a scan segment of a wisp of Inton Energy [vastly inferior in size to what Sasuke would have left behind] slowly evaporating and no where near Obito's Omnyoudon. You should have realized by now that your everyday trollish approach isn't enough to convince me. You'll have to do better than to pull at straws.
​

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In a nutshell. Eventhough there hasn't been a single instance in the manga where a susano user has selectively made only some parts of his susano intagible.

...[

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So basically your entire thread is about the capacity of the Hiraishin user to counter Susanoo and when i show you how easily it is and you can't counter, you ignore the argument by implementing a scenario where the hiraishin user would magically not touch Susanoo?

Your argument, to which I never discredited is no certainty but rather a subjective scenario already addressed in my opening post. ​