-> Hirashin users lose to EMS Madara

[Slaeht]

I'm not seeing where you're getting an alternate interpretation; is it possible that you could detail your thoughts? How does Yin equate to Chakra? How does this differ from the Yin which is molded within individuals..?

Chakra is molding of the physical and spiritual energies that is contained in the

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and transmitted by the

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. The Inner Coils allow chakra to travel throughout the body, manipulate a particular tenketsu or group of tenketsu, and reconstruct chakra into various forms. This particular reconstruction of chakra is a

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, and it requires a specific amount or ratio of physical energy and spiritual energy to create the wanted result. Ninjutsu, Genjutsu, certain Taijutsu, Fūinjutsu, Senjutsu, and Juinjutsu are all categorized jutsu’s which require t a specific ratio of the physical and spiritual energies to enact.

Yin is Inton, a higher ratio of spiritual energy than physical energy, and governs the imagination forming the basis of Yin-Release. Whereas spiritual energy is consciousness or the mind and devoid of physical energy, Yin or Inton is comprised of both energies and is predominantly fueled by spiritual energy and physical energy is the ancillary energy needed to sustain the essence of Yin/Inton. Fundamentally, Yin cannot exist without both the spiritual and physical energies like Yang, which is Yōton; but unlike Yin or Inton, Yang/Yōton is a higher ratio of physical energy than spiritual energy, and governs the vitality used to breathe life into forms forming the basis of Yang-Release. Like Yin, Yang cannot without both the physical and spiritual energies. The difference between the two is while Yin operates on imagination which is chiefly spiritual energy, it needs physical energy to necessitate it or grow its imaginings from; while Yang operates on vitality, which is chiefly physical energy, it needs spiritual energy to necessitate it or provide an outline to which life can be breathe into—which is

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to remember.​

 

[Memento Mori]

Most of what I read was purely speculation. You concluded that Minato or Tobirama will lose because of these following factors

1. Madara controls Susano'o like a remote.
2. Tagging Susano'o is redundant
3. Link between Susano'o and the user is misunderstood
4. They will fall because of genjutsu

These 4 listed above are your main argument. No matter how many times I read it, it is all about Susanoo and it's properties. You are implying that they will lose Madara just because they can't get inside Susanoo. Can we conclude the battle just by these factors alone?



While there are evidence to support that Minato has a large chakra pool, you downplayed it by saying it can't rival Madara's chakra pool. You are speculating because there is no single scan comparing their chakra pools. It is your belief that Madara has higher chakra pool. There is no way for us to guage their chakra pools if both of them was shown to have large chakra pool. How did you determine that Madara has a higher chakra pool? Right! It's your opinion.



He already loses to Hashi even with Kyuubi. This alone nullifies your argument of him having an inevitable victory. Minato has a contract seal



You're ignoring the fact the he's facing the fastest shinobi with FTG. One touch and it's over



Speculation. It could happen and it could not happen. He was not able to utilize the Sharingan against Hashi who is slower than his brother



Speculation. We have not seen Minato getting caught in a genjutsu and you're saying like capturing Minato in a genjutsu is as easy as abc when in fact Madara failed to use genjutsu on Hashi which is slower than Minato

So, saying that Madara wins because they can't get past Susanoo is pure BS! Why?

1. You're ignoring the fact that maintaining Susanoo takes a lot of chakra
2. You're implying that Madara will be hiding inside Susanoo the whole time.
3. You're ignoring the fact that whatever jutsu he will launch against Minato will be redirected back at him
4. We saw that Madara do taijutsu battle even against several opponents.
5. A clone from Hashi was able to sneak and stab him. I wonder how difficult for a FTG user to be near him
6. You're ignoring the fact that Minato can transfer his chakra
7. You're ignoring the fact that Minato can seal chakra
8. You're ignoring the fact that Madara can't defend Gamarinsho with his Susanoo
9. You're ignoring the fact that FTG has radius
10. You're ignoring the fact that he will get Obitoed once he will allow the kunai to pass

There are lots of factors to determine the outcome of a battle but there's one thing you fail to analyze. He can't win a battle if he can't hit his opponent. This is common sense. No one can win a fight if the attacks can't land.

Can you at least answer this.

1. How can he harm Minato when Minato has ST barrier capable of redirecting his attacks and has the speed to avoid attacks? Can he win without hurting Minato?

2. How can he defend against Gamarinsho?

Well said my friend^^^^^^^^^^

 

[The ProphecY]

Most of what I read was purely speculation. You concluded that Minato or Tobirama will lose because of these following factors

1. Madara controls Susano'o like a remote.
2. Tagging Susano'o is redundant
3. Link between Susano'o and the user is misunderstood
4. They will fall because of genjutsu

These 4 listed above are your main argument. No matter how many times I read it, it is all about Susanoo and it's properties. You are implying that they will lose Madara just because they can't get inside Susanoo. Can we conclude the battle just by these factors alone?



While there are evidence to support that Minato has a large chakra pool, you downplayed it by saying it can't rival Madara's chakra pool. You are speculating because there is no single scan comparing their chakra pools. It is your belief that Madara has higher chakra pool. There is no way for us to guage their chakra pools if both of them was shown to have large chakra pool. How did you determine that Madara has a higher chakra pool? Right! It's your opinion.



He already loses to Hashi even with Kyuubi. This alone nullifies your argument of him having an inevitable victory. Minato has a contract seal



You're ignoring the fact the he's facing the fastest shinobi with FTG. One touch and it's over



Speculation. It could happen and it could not happen. He was not able to utilize the Sharingan against Hashi who is slower than his brother



Speculation. We have not seen Minato getting caught in a genjutsu and you're saying like capturing Minato in a genjutsu is as easy as abc when in fact Madara failed to use genjutsu on Hashi which is slower than Minato

So, saying that Madara wins because they can't get past Susanoo is pure BS! Why?

1. You're ignoring the fact that maintaining Susanoo takes a lot of chakra
2. You're implying that Madara will be hiding inside Susanoo the whole time.
3. You're ignoring the fact that whatever jutsu he will launch against Minato will be redirected back at him
4. We saw that Madara do taijutsu battle even against several opponents.
5. A clone from Hashi was able to sneak and stab him. I wonder how difficult for a FTG user to be near him
6. You're ignoring the fact that Minato can transfer his chakra
7. You're ignoring the fact that Minato can seal chakra
8. You're ignoring the fact that Madara can't defend Gamarinsho with his Susanoo
9. You're ignoring the fact that FTG has radius
10. You're ignoring the fact that he will get Obitoed once he will allow the kunai to pass

There are lots of factors to determine the outcome of a battle but there's one thing you fail to analyze. He can't win a battle if he can't hit his opponent. This is common sense. No one can win a fight if the attacks can't land.

Can you at least answer this.

1. How can he harm Minato when Minato has ST barrier capable of redirecting his attacks and has the speed to avoid attacks? Can he win without hurting Minato?

2. How can he defend against Gamarinsho?

Very true^^! This thread is so 1-sided as if the OP just love Madara so much or just underestimating the true potential of S/T technique.

Great counter anyways...

 

[Brother Numpsay]

10. You're ignoring the fact that he will get Obitoed once he will allow the kunai to pass

ajpn920 put up a really good point here.

If your premise is to remove the FTG seal by simply removing Yōton, the users can still take advantage of this instant teleport before or Obitoed him with kunai transport.

We can't deny that FTG has a radius to teleport around their destination of the tag so stating "Susano'o could remain intangible to allow the Kunai to pass right through" would mean the FTG user is still a threat, as shown what happen to Obito.

I believe you are over estimating the time for Sussanoo to rebuilt the portion that was removed by Yoton. When we saw how Danzo created a gap to enter Susanoo, Sasuke was force to counter Danzo, so he wouldnt take advantage of the gap he forcibly removed[

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].

I have never seen a case where Sussanoo instantly reshape the portion that has been removed, middle of battle wise. (Re reading the Gokage fight)

Edit: Re read the fight:

1.All the damage input Susanoo gain took time to recover.
2.Madara needed to recreate Susanoo to restore its shape, after he completely removes it first.


All this suggest FTG can take advantage of the intangibility.

 

[Behemoth55]

Can he win without hurting Minato?

Madara can easily mix up Minatos Hiraishin Kunai on the entire battlefield with his Uchiwa, Susanoo or a Katon like that:

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....and can take advantage of that.

If Minatos Kunai aren't outside of this range, he's toast anyway. Even a simple Katon-Jutsu of Madara is this strong.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

Madara rules. he wins by default. thats the truth

 

[Valhorus]

Madara can easily mix up Minatos Hiraishin Kunai on the entire battlefield with his Uchiwa, Susanoo or a Katon like that:

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....and can take advantage of that.

If Minatos Kunai aren't outside of this range, he's toast anyway. Even a simple Katon-Jutsu of Madara is this strong.

He can just threw new ones after that.

 

[TrollingSage]

Madara can easily mix up Minatos Hiraishin Kunai on the entire battlefield with his Uchiwa, Susanoo or a Katon like that:

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....and can take advantage of that.

If Minatos Kunai aren't outside of this range, he's toast anyway. Even a simple Katon-Jutsu of Madara is this strong.

S/T Barrier easily takes care of that.

 

[ajpn920]

Well said my friend^^^^^^^^^^

Very true^^! This thread is so 1-sided as if the OP just love Madara so much or just underestimating the true potential of S/T technique.

Great counter anyways...

ajpn920 put up a really good point here.

If your premise is to remove the FTG seal by simply removing Yōton, the users can still take advantage of this instant teleport before or Obitoed him with kunai transport.

We can't deny that FTG has a radius to teleport around their destination of the tag so stating "Susano'o could remain intangible to allow the Kunai to pass right through" would mean the FTG user is still a threat, as shown what happen to Obito.

I believe you are over estimating the time for Sussanoo to rebuilt the portion that was removed by Yoton. When we saw how Danzo created a gap to enter Susanoo, Sasuke was force to counter Danzo, so he wouldnt take advantage of the gap he forcibly removed[

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].

I have never seen a case where Sussanoo instantly reshape the portion that has been removed, middle of battle wise. (Re reading the Gokage fight)

Edit: Re read the fight:

1.All the damage input Susanoo gain took time to recover.
2.Madara needed to recreate Susanoo to restore its shape, after he completely removes it first.


All this suggest FTG can take advantage of the intangibility.

Thanks guys

 

[ajpn920]

Madara can easily mix up Minatos Hiraishin Kunai on the entire battlefield with his Uchiwa, Susanoo or a Katon like that:

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....and can take advantage of that.

If Minatos Kunai aren't outside of this range, he's toast anyway. Even a simple Katon-Jutsu of Madara is this strong.

This is what i've been saying. He can't win without hurting Minato. ST barrier says hi to his offense

 

[Behemoth55]

This is what i've been saying. He can't win without hurting Minato. ST barrier says hi to his offense

Yes, you are right, Minatos Jikūkan Kekkei can teleport attacks. But we should also consider the sucess is dependent on the velocity of the incoming attack. After all Minato has to reposition himself and use hand seals. But yes, he could warp Madaras Kanton.
Actually, we could see the limit of Minatos chakra in chapter 503. Madara on the other hand could fight for 24 hours.

 

[A v i]

EMS Madara is canonically superior to Minato as well as Tobirama so there is nothing to discuss or prove here but nice thread.

1.If EMS Madara can manipulate his Susanoo parts like that then he should be able to bypass Hashirama's gates in that scan but he didn't which makes me belive that Madara used Rinnegan against Gaara to manipulate that sword.

2.Susanoo has 0 feats of being intangible for out side attacks.I mean Susanoo user can bypass it to use attacks such as

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even if they are inside of Suasnoo but that logic won't work for out side people and there is nothing that suggets that Suansoo users can pull this.

 

[iSpeak]

This is what i've been saying. He can't win without hurting Minato. ST barrier says hi to his offense

ST barrier would be a very poor choice for Minato to use in a 1v1 battle.

 

[Waltz]

@ajpn920: If they cannot bypass Susano'o, of course the battle can be concluded with that alone as indicates one thing: They will continuously attempt to breech Susano'o and use their Jutsu to evade or defend against Madara's technique's which would only conclude in a wastage of Chakra. For Minato, if he continually utilizes his techniques for this purpose he would quite naturally run out of chakra Madara. Rosae changed my mind on the Senju; Tobirama in that, his chakra pools would have the same fate as Minato's and that it is uncertain if he could actually keep up with Madara's potency and vastness of chakra.


Minato having the Contract seal doesn't amount to much as it would still result in him having multiple opponents and doesn't negate the Kyubi being re-controlled via the Sharingan. He would have no way to stop Madara form doing so as well unless he is able to get the Kyubi away from the location, which is a slim chance since there are no pre-requisites given in his favor such as an initial FTG radius. So Minato being the fastest Shinobi is a factor because...? Did he not fodder Tobirama without any difficulty or any implied used of Doujutsu? ​

Speculation. It could happen and it could not happen. He was not able to utilize the Sharingan against Hashi who is slower than his brother

@Bold: Then how is this speculation? An Ad Ignorantiam is no argument.​

We have not seen Minato getting caught in a genjutsu and you're saying like capturing Minato in a genjutsu is as easy as abc when in fact Madara failed to use genjutsu on Hashi which is slower than Minato

Your reasoning is entirely fallacious and subpar at best yet you claim that I am using a speculative approach. I'm questioning whether or not you understand what 'Speculation' is. You're essentially asserting that because a character has not used an element of their repertoire in a particular battle scenario against an opponent, that they cannot do so against another opponent in an entirely different battle scenario; to add to that you're saying that because a Character has not been caught in a specific jutsu that it is impossible for them to be caught, when in reality, both cases are opposite. I would like you to understand this, clearly: If Mintao is caught directly in Genjutsu; he faces the full effects. ​

1. You're ignoring the fact that maintaining Susanoo takes a lot of chakra
2. You're implying that Madara will be hiding inside Susanoo the whole time.
3. You're ignoring the fact that whatever jutsu he will launch against Minato will be redirected back at him
4. We saw that Madara do taijutsu battle even against several opponents.
5. A clone from Hashi was able to sneak and stab him. I wonder how difficult for a FTG user to be near him
6. You're ignoring the fact that Minato can transfer his chakra
7. You're ignoring the fact that Minato can seal chakra
8. You're ignoring the fact that Madara can't defend Gamarinsho with his Susanoo
9. You're ignoring the fact that FTG has radius
10. You're ignoring the fact that he will get Obitoed once he will allow the kunai to pass

-> 1) If you believe this then you do not understand the passive ability granted by the Eien-no-Mangekyo Sharingan
-> 2) Never stated or implied; only argued Hirashin vs Susano'o.
-> 3) Assumption, not truth. Perhaps you failed to understand how Madara counters Jikukan.
-> 4)...
-> 5) Cherry picking and a subtle assertion.
-> 6) Sides Kyuubi, this aid's him how exactly?
-> 7) Alright?
-> 8) Yet he can prohibit the Jutsu
-> 9) Which can be blown away by a single Destruction incarnate Sword swipe.
-> 10) False as it depends on the portion of Susano'o and this is only If he allows it to pass as he could negate it with his own Kunai or Susanoo's Katana.


Answering:

1 ->

Without any physical connection he freely manipulates a portion of his Susano'o. A critical ability many fail to consider which would easily allow Madara to best certain Hirashin jutsu. Jikūkan for example, would be the worst possible approach to long range Susano'o offences either with the Kyubi or without; such as a bombardment of Susano'o infused Biju-Dama as Madara could simply disperse their course to avoid linear effect of Jikūkan and then redirect them to the desired Target as well as attack simultaneously.

2 -> Killing the toads, blowing them away with Perfect Susanoo's Sword swipes, roasting them with Katon Jutsu, controlling them with the Sharingan...would you like me to continue?


Differently, I have not even begun to meddle with Madara's knowledge on Uchiha Kinjutsu and Rikudo Jutsu and Gunbai abilities. If you honestly think wither Minato or Tobirama has a chance, you are sadly mistaken. ​

 

[Behemoth55]

ST barrier would be a very poor choice for Minato to use in a 1v1 battle.

Which barrier anyway? You mean his Jikūkan Kekkai? In chapter 503 it was Kushina, who created the barrier.

 

[iSpeak]

Which barrier anyway? You mean his Jikūkan Kekkai? In chapter 503 it was Kushina, who created the barrier.

Yes im talking about his Jikūkan Kekkai

 

[Valhorus]

Which barrier anyway? You mean his Jikūkan Kekkai? In chapter 503 it was Kushina, who created the barrier.

Jikūkan Kekkai = Space - Time Barrier . The barrier used by Minato to teleport away TBB....I can't see when Kushina used that .

 

[ajpn920]

@ajpn920: If they cannot bypass Susano'o, of course the battle can be concluded with that alone as indicates one thing: They will continuously attempt to breech Susano'o and use their Jutsu to evade or defend against Madara's technique's which would only conclude in a wastage of Chakra. For Minato, if he continually utilizes his techniques for this purpose he would quite naturally run out of chakra Madara. Rosae changed my mind on the Senju; Tobirama in that, his chakra pools would have the same fate as Minato's and that it is uncertain if he could actually keep up with Madara's potency and vastness of chakra.


Minato having the Contract seal doesn't amount to much as it would still result in him having multiple opponents and doesn't negate the Kyubi being re-controlled via the Sharingan. He would have no way to stop Madara form doing so as well unless he is able to get the Kyubi away from the location, which is a slim chance since there are no pre-requisites given in his favor such as an initial FTG radius. So Minato being the fastest Shinobi is a factor because...? Did he not fodder Tobirama without any difficulty or any implied used of Doujutsu? ​

@Bold: Then how is this speculation? An Ad Ignorantiam is no argument.​

Your reasoning is entirely fallacious and subpar at best yet you claim that I am using a speculative approach. I'm questioning whether or not you understand what 'Speculation' is. You're essentially asserting that because a character has not used an element of their repertoire in a particular battle scenario against an opponent, that they cannot do so against another opponent in an entirely different battle scenario; to add to that you're saying that because a Character has not been caught in a specific jutsu that it is impossible for them to be caught, when in reality, both cases are opposite. I would like you to understand this, clearly: If Mintao is caught directly in Genjutsu; he faces the full effects. ​

-> 1) If you believe this then you do not understand the passive ability granted by the Eien-no-Mangekyo Sharingan
-> 2) Never stated or implied; only argued Hirashin vs Susano'o.
-> 3) Assumption, not truth. Perhaps you failed to understand how Madara counters Jikukan.
-> 4)...
-> 5) Cherry picking and a subtle assertion.
-> 6) Sides Kyuubi, this aid's him how exactly?
-> 7) Alright?
-> 8) Yet he can prohibit the Jutsu
-> 9) Which can be blown away by a single Destruction incarnate Sword swipe.
-> 10) False as it depends on the portion of Susano'o and this is only If he allows it to pass as he could negate it with his own Kunai or Susanoo's Katana.


Answering:

1 ->



2 -> Killing the toads, blowing them away with Perfect Susanoo's Sword swipes, roasting them with Katon Jutsu, controlling them with the Sharingan...would you like me to continue?


Differently, I have not even begun to meddle with Madara's knowledge on Uchiha Kinjutsu and Rikudo Jutsu and Gunbai abilities. If you honestly think wither Minato or Tobirama has a chance, you are sadly mistaken. ​

If they cannot bypass Susano'o, of course the battle can be concluded with that alone as indicates one thing: They will continuously attempt to breech Susano'o and use their Jutsu to evade or defend against Madara's technique's which would only conclude in a wastage of Chakra

Who's wasting chakra? They will be wasting chakra if they can't bypass Susanoo? You mean to say that Madara who is hiding inside Susanoo plus his offensive attacks is not wasting chakra? So Minato who can just use his speed to avoid attacks from Madara will be wasting chakra. I don't see any logic into this.

They will continuously attempt to breech Susano'o and use their Jutsu to evade or defend against Madara's technique's which would only conclude in a wastage of Chakra

I thought you said that you are not using speculative approach. Do you think that Minato who perhaps the best analyst in the manga will continue to attack even knowing that his attacks are useless? Even a normal person can use common sense in this scenario.

If you know that you can't break a wall just by punching, will you continue to punch that wall? You are speculating again that Minato and Tobirama will continue to attack Madara even if their jutsu can't damage Susanoo.

If Mintao is caught directly in Genjutsu; he faces the full effects

Only if Minato is caught. IF! If Madara deactivates his defense then speedblitz gg. See what we can do with this IF. You're IF can't help Madara win this battle because this IF can go both ways

Killing the toads, blowing them away with Perfect Susanoo's Sword swipes, roasting them with Katon Jutsu, controlling them with the Sharingan...would you like me to continue?

How exactly can Madara bypass ST barrier? If Susanoo can tank attacks so is ST barrier. On top of tanking an attack, it can redirect attacks making Madara's attack his attack. If Madara can't bypass ST barrier then how can he blow away Ma and Pa?


You fail to see that Minato has higher chance of hitting Madara than Madara hitting Minato. Both of them have good defense. Take away both their defense and we can conclude that touching Madara is as easy as counting 123.

 

[Memento Mori]

Yes, you are right, Minatos Jikūkan Kekkei can teleport attacks. But we should also consider the sucess is dependent on the velocity of the incoming attack. After all Minato has to reposition himself and use hand seals. But yes, he could warp Madaras Kanton.
Actually, we could see the limit of Minatos chakra in chapter 503. Madara on the other hand could fight for 24 hours.

which limit are you talking about in chapter 503????
minato was low on chakra that time because he is using his chakra to suppress ninetails during naruto's birth

 

[A v i]

Minato having the Contract seal doesn't amount to much as it would still result in him having multiple opponents and doesn't negate the Kyubi being re-controlled via the Sharingan. He would have no way to stop Madara form doing so as well unless he is able to get the Kyubi away from the location, which is a slim chance since there are no pre-requisites given in his favor such as an initial FTG radius. So Minato being the fastest Shinobi is a factor because...? Did he not fodder Tobirama without any difficulty or any implied used of Doujutsu? ​

If your talking about Madara owning Tobirama in recent chapter then that bold part is nothing more than pure BS.He has Hashiramas SM and Rinnegan for crying out loud.Madara ain't owning Tobirama in a CQC battle without those two abilities. When it comes to basic skills they are all more or less on par with eachother.