Nope. 5 year younger Hanabi>>Genin Hinata who held back her potential. Same Hinata>>>>>Hanabi when she actually tries and isn't held back by herself. Almost tagging Neji with 4 attempts = tagging Hanabi neg diff. Nuff said.
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Considering that Neji is the guy that wouldn't get a clean tag from the likes of even weightless Lee w/1st Gate speed boost on top. Kid Hanbi gets tagged easily after that same move.
Hanabi from the Last Vs CE1 Hinata is a good comparison , and Hinata stomps if she fights her as she did Neji. Its that simple.
Nope. 5 year younger Hanabi>>Genin Hinata who held back her potential. Same Hinata>>>>>Hanabi when she actually tries and isn't held back by herself. Almost tagging Neji with 4 attempts = tagging Hanabi neg diff. Nuff said.
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Considering that Neji is the guy that wouldn't get a clean tag from the likes of even weightless Lee w/1st Gate speed boost on top. Kid Hanbi gets tagged easily after that same move.
Hanabi from the Last Vs CE1 Hinata is a good comparison , and Hinata stomps if she fights her as she did Neji. Its that simple.
Not relevant to it, but Salamander is a troll greater than any other. In another thread, someone put a manga scan to support their claim Hinata was supposed to have hair color similar to Hyuga and his rebuttal to that canon manga scan was more or less "Naruto cannot tell color" And he was serious about it. The nerve xD
Same applies to Neji, and don't @ me with him being Branch member, that is ultimately irrelevant especially with Hiashi drastically changing as a person.
It was always above Hinata's that's the point it didn't need re-affirmation. Only Hinata would need the confirmation she surpassed Hanabi in part 2, the last (via statement) or part 3. You speak as if releasing chakra from singular limbs is a feat relative to the ability to release chakra from all over.
So you are saying Bolt is faster than The Last Naruto since his animation speed against Nue is faster than Naruto's animation speed against Tenseigan Puppets? :lol
Different shows different rules stop with your flawed fanfics.
Animation speed doesn't matter in terms of speed just as after images in the manga don't matter in terms of speed, unless you want to tell me Hinata and Neji were moving so fast they created after images of themselves
Kishi's showing different motions not after images you'd know that if you knew Kishi's drawing style.
Anyway kishi was directly involved with the last, including editing so the speeds being different is to show variance in speed. No amount of fanfic or excuse could ever change that.
The fact that kishi was involved even in the editing and didn't write a manga for it. The fact there is a ddifference in speed its to indicate difference in ability
Kishi was invloved with all of it including the editing. Stay mad and know the puppets who were fighting Hinata were slower unless you can show otherwise.
I'm done I can't be bothered repeating myself.
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Me when I read LB's fanfics and excuses.
That's a warp Salamander signing out(this thread). You may spout as much fanfic as you like.
Just a thought for u to consider fully before replying.
-Hiashi said the Rotation is taught by the head of the clan to the heir , only.
-Hinata was the heir and Hanabi is the heir.
-Both Hinata and Hanabi knew of Rotation as Hiashi's move which means he was demonstrating it to his heirs at different points in time.
-Neji was shown literally training to perfect his Rotation showing that it takes actual training and not some oral cheat code which somehow unlocks perfect use of every Tenketsu after hearing. Neji's feat of re-creating Rotation wouldn't be so impressive if all he needed to do was over-hear a special cheat code being told to Hinata or Hanabi when Hiashi demonstrated the Rotation. This scan literally addresses the difficulty.
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-If all it took was a simple oral lesson for Neji to learn how to release Chakra from every Tenketsu , then Tenten wouldn't imply that Neji took hits from her weapons before he "PERFECTED' it.
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So yea , i dont really see what u can bring to the table to contest my stance with so much logical support from the Manga , but i'll handle it when it comes.
Hm Nice idea. But however. Even if she had the potential to be the greatest Hyuuga ever she missed the opportunity. She was too kind towards her enemys and was not an eager natural talent like Neji. Never mind she decided to choose another way to become a Ninja and skip the family tradition.
Because Kishi wanted to show Neji's level of Chakra control for his age. Jonin find it hard which hints that even Hyuga Jonin would find it hard to do wat Neji did. Simple.
Nope it only puts Neji's Chakra control> the usual Jonin and Hyuga. Fact of the matter is Chakra emitted from only a few Chakra points in the palm is difficult to control for even Jonin. Chakra emitted from every single Tenketsu would be much , much harder. This applies to other Hyuga also.
But Hyuga Jonin are different from regular Jonin. They have the means to be able to do the technique if taught while regular Jonin don't. Remove "chakra points" from that scan and the meaning of the statement doesn't change.
Emitted chakra is difficult to control and Jonin generally can only control chakra like that for use from a single limb. The fact water walking requires expelling chakra from two limbs at a time shows the difficulty is not ascribed to expelling chakra but controlling expelled chakra as mere genin have little to no difficulty learning the water walking exercise.
Not to mention Kakashi for one has shown not only to be able to utilize the chakra from two limbs, he can also apply Nature transformation to both breaking the difficulty threshold completely from that scan and yet you will put Genin Neji's CC over his because he has the ability to expel from all tenketsu while Kakashi doesn't?
The bold is correct yes. But you can't just claim that underlined in the bold. Kakashi can use chakra from two limbs at a time as opposed to the one limb which is the difficulty stated. He thrashes the only difficulty made known in that scan. But he still can't use rotation? Why? He doesn't have the ability to. Nothing suggests if he had gentle fist, he wouldn't be able to use Rotation.
Nope , Kishi is clearly saying that controlling Chakra emitted from every tenketsu is super difficult as Jonin find it hard using much fewer Tenketsu. Neji can release the Chakra from every single one and control it perfectly to do watever. Thats his feat of Chakra control noted by Kishi.
Clearly releasing Chakra from Tenketsu in the way Neji does is much different from Naruto/Sasuke using Chakra to stick to Trees/water. Them doing wat they did doesn't mean they can also emit Chakra from hands/feet to block attacks using that same Chakra utilization. Its more than simply the release of Chakra.
Now we're saying the same thing but you're still not seeing where you're not applying this.
The bold is exactly and most definitely correct. The release of chakra has no difficulty. Neji having the know how to use all his tenketsu to release chakra before controlling it is not enough to put his Genin self's CC over every Jonin in the series when Jonin don't have the know how to use all their tenketsu.
If they did, releasing would pose no difficulty for them all as we know they can emit chakra from two limbs with no difficulty (Water walking) but controlling the chakra that's released is where the difficulty with respect to control comes in. And someone like Kakashi and the entire Hyuga main house have broken that difficulty threshold and all with the exception of Hyuga head and heir cannot use rotation.
This isn't logical bro. What do u think changed for him to decide to teach her? him taking years upon years to soften up doesn't make sense when the 4th War was the most logical time to teach her. Especially if we followed ur logic where all she needed was to simply "hear a few words?" to unlock it.
Naruto said Neji was going to change the Hyuga. Which implies that Neji was destined to be the leader.
That first paragraph would only be correct if you can say for certain Hiashi knew the 4th war was coming and there's no way he would have known until the countdown to 4th war arc when info had reached all villages and that arc was immediately followed by the start of the 4th war.
Not to mention if we were to use this protection for family which i think you're trying to push as a reason for Hiashi teaching her, then it should have been stated or hinted somewhere that Hizashi could also use Rotation seeing as he and Hiashi would have participated in the 3rd war. Also note that the DB more or less puts Hizashi's chakra control on the same level as Hiashi's yet the former could not use Rotation.
I also have no issue with believing it would take Hinata longer than Neji did to learn Rotation.. I just don't believe it would take months upon months for absolutely no reason.
Highly doubt the bold. Naruto said that in part 1 but we know as at the Pain arc, Hiashi was away with Hanabi so she could get accustomed to heir matters.. i believe stated by Kishi himself.
-That isn't a reason. Hanabi just wasn't capable of Rotation in the Last which only helps my arguemnt and weakens ur stance of a simple oral lesson being the key to Rotation. Why did Hanabi the heir not have it then? Unless ur gonna tell me Hiashi needed to soften up a couple more years before teaching her too , despite being the heir.
-There is literally no logical reason why Neji wouldn't even try teaching her the Rotation before p2 or before the War. Zero logic in regards to such a notion. There is ntn that states exactly when Hinata learnt Rotation either. Could've been before or after the Last , but the point is she simply wasn't on Neji's level of skill and this fact couldn't have been made any more clear by the author.
-Body-blow doesn't simply expel Chakra as the Chakra can literally be controlled into a full body Gentle fistattack , or can be used to block and/or redirect physical attacks. Mastering this is the key to Rotation and Kishi made sure to ascribe great difficulty in releasing and controlling chakra from even a few Chakra-points much less all.
"Neji is a genius" or "Its Hinata" are ur arguments not mine.
- It doesn't weaken my argument though. There probably would be an order to learning techniques which we don't know. They aren't just going to teach each and every technique to all clan members at once. Exclude Neji and you will see this. Why would Vacuum palm which looks like the most basic Hyuga tech make its intro in part 2? The Last Hanabi was even holding up a Kunai which isn't symbolic with the Hyuga style suggesting at that point she had only the taijutsu capabilities and nothing else. Not even Vacuum palm.
- Neji was teaching her before part 2 and she couldn't at least expel chakra from any other limb which has no difficulty? Why?
- You don't need Gentle fist for chakra to be able to block physical attacks [
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- Very well. What is your reason then that Neji took a month to learn a tech and Hinata took years?
Hinata and Hanabi knew the Rotation by simply seeing it. Hanabi said "Father , thats your..".
- Neji literally re-created the Jutsu which means he didn't even need to see it just as the Hyuga who created the Rotation never needed to see it in action before creating it.
-Besides , even if we assumed Neji saw Hiashi use it , doesn't change the fact that Hiashi would've taught the heirs the oral code u find so simple to unlock the use of Rotation as he was clearly demonstrating the tech on multiple occasions for them know it by sight. Again Rotation needing a easy to learn oral code to give the user advanced Chakra control doesn't make sense. Especially since ur completely ignoring difficulty.
The first statement is giving Neji too much credit. So Neji tried to create new techniques for himself and just happened to create Rotation and 64 palms which the main house uses? Same name and all?
I don't believe i've said or implied the oral code gives advanced chakra control. The whole reason for this argument was my trying to prove 64 palms is more difficult to master than Rotation. Rotation requires an oral code which i've postulated to be how to release chakra from all tenketsu. Post releasing the chakra from all tenketsu is where the difficulty in that scan comes in.
Can you control the chakra you released from all tenketsu? That's all.
If the Hyuga main house has already shown chakra control surpassing the difficulty of one limb at a time, then it doesn't seem logical it will take years upon years to be able to control the chakra from all tenketsu for spinning. 64 palms however requires more for it to be used. But it also doesn't mean learning 64 palms would take years to master either.
Because Rotation was only the beginning. The word "true" is added because he's about to show his full power which is why Tenten says "Thats Neji's defense" after he showed the Rotation.
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Why do u think Tenten then said , "And thats not the end of it"? Because clearly Rotation wasn't the end of the show and only the beginning. Rotation+64=Neji's true show of strength. Rotation alone=the beginning.
Rotation alone isn't the beginning as she says that before he executes 64 palms and she isn't joining the techniques as one show of strength either. That Neji's true show of strength is only beginning means whatever he did prior was also a show of strength but what he's about to do is a tier higher hence "true"
Again. Rotation was also said to be THEhigh grade Taijutsu that made his genius known at that time putting Rotation on that same exact level of proof as 64 palm.
-I just told u why. 64 palms is based on more physical ability than Chakra control. Hinata could use 32 palms before 64 and likely stuggled her way to reach 32 by the War , yet her having 32 palms doesn't give her the CC control for Rotation , and this clearly didn't change instantly after she finally used 64 palms fully. Hinata using TLF which is a chakra control ability didn't mean she could instantly pull off 64 palms.
In terms of Chakra control , obviously Chakra strings require much more than Leaf hurricane. Byakugou would obviously be harder for Sakura in terms of CC compared learning Tsunade's physical moves/kicks.
A good certificate (Rotation) highlights something positive to prospective employers but doesn't prove assurance of being able to deliver the goods as tangible work experience (64 Palms) would.
And having one aspect of a technique greater in X than another which has an aspect greater in Y than the first technique doesn't mean they can't be compared. Puppetry is C-rank while Leaf Hurricane is B-rank. C-ranks are Chunin level techs while B-ranks are Jonin level techs. The higher ranked one is going to be more difficult to master irrespective of one aspect greater than the other or not.
Just a thought for u to consider fully before replying.
-Hiashi said the Rotation is taught by the head of the clan to the heir , only.
-Hinata was the heir and Hanabi is the heir.
-Both Hinata and Hanabi knew of Rotation as Hiashi's move which means he was demonstrating it to his heirs at different points in time.
-Neji was shown literally training to perfect his Rotation showing that it takes actual training and not some oral cheat code which somehow unlocks perfect use of every Tenketsu after hearing. Neji's feat of re-creating Rotation wouldn't be so impressive if all he needed to do was over-hear a special cheat code being told to Hinata or Hanabi when Hiashi demonstrated the Rotation. This scan literally addresses the difficulty.
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-If all it took was a simple oral lesson for Neji to learn how to release Chakra from every Tenketsu , then Tenten wouldn't imply that Neji took hits from her weapons before he "PERFECTED' it.
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So yea , i dont really see what u can bring to the table to contest my stance with so much logical support from the Manga , but i'll handle it when it comes
Yes it would require training. No tech in the entire series is learnt off the bat. That is fact. What i'm saying is the oral thing needed to be taught is how to release chakra from all tenketsu. Releasing chakra has zero difficulty. The scan says "they generally can only control chakra from one limb at a time" not "they generally can only release chakra from one limb at a time" Water walking/tree climbing is proof of this.
Hyuuga Hizashi
Hidden Leaf, Jounin
Ninja Registry Number: 005160
Birthdate: January 8 (32 years old at death; Capricorn)
Height: 176.5 cm Weight: 66.3 kg Blood type: B
Specialty Jutsu: Taijutsu, Byakugan
Statistics
Ninjutsu: 3.5
Taijutsu: 4.5
Genjutsu: 2
Intelligence: 3
Strength: 4
Speed: 4
Stamina: 4
Hand Seals: 5
“With your permission, allow me to do this…
The man whose tragic fate defied destiny
Existing for the sake of protecting the main family, decisions of defiance are not permitted for the branch family. [Hizashi is] Hiashi’s younger twin brother who lived bearing that sad fate. At one point, despite that he hated the main family, at the end of his life he had wanted to protect Konoha, the home of his beloved son Neji, and so he chose a fate that was considered a death a for the sake of protecting the main family, and went to die honorably.
Like his older twin Hiashi, he excelled in taijutsu and chakra control. He surpassed Hiashi in terms of physical strength.
This was the “freedom” that Hizashi finally obtained.
He resented the main family, and even suffered for it at times.
The bold put Hizashi's chakra control and Taijutsu on the same level has Hiashi. If they were inferior, it would have been stated as it says right there that he surpassed his brother in Physical strength. Which means Hizashi could also probably do Wall palm just like Hiashi yet he couldn't use Rotation why? Probably because he couldn't figure what was needed to release from all tenketsu which isn't related to chakra control.
Again, Rotation requires releasing chakra first. The control comes after and that's where the difficulty comes in. "Chakra that is emitted is difficult to control"
In that other thread, you were using the fact Neji was the only one aside from Hiashi that was shown utilizing all his tenketsu as proof that Rotation is extremely difficult to learn. And i've been trying to tell you releasing chakra alone has no difficulty. Neji just happened to figure out how to release from all his tenketsu. Other Hyuga's didn't but it doesn't mean they couldn't if they were taught.
Yeah, no. Hinata>>Hanabi just because we haven't seen much of Hanabi. It's Twin Lion Fist vs Rotation, but Hinata has still more experience. I'm not saying Hinata is the stronger Hyuuga, but that's exactly what I'm saying. To say who's the strongest is a bit unnecessary. We still need a proper Hyuuga development afterall/
But Hyuga Jonin are different from regular Jonin. They have the means to be able to do the technique if taught while regular Jonin don't. Remove "chakra points" from that scan and the meaning of the statement doesn't change.
Them having the means to use the tech doesn't mean the control and release of Chakra emitted from every tenketsu becomes any easier. This is why no other adult Hyuga figured it out by chance , even if they saw how it worked in action . Its simply a different type of Chakra control that was never fully explained.
Neji didn't just happen to figure out how to release from any/all his tenketsu. Tenten hints that before Neji's defense became "perfect" with training , he received scratches beforehand..
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The only logical ways he could've received scratches is if he wasn't able to release chakra and control/harden it from every tenketsu simultaneously, which lead to his body getting scratched in the earlier stages of training. It makes sense that Neji at the very start could only release and utilize Chakra from only his hands and feet until he unlocked the rest or learnt how to control and harden his whole defense which explains Tenten saying its now perfect as her attacks come from every possible angle.
Releasing chakra from everywhere has zero difficulty. The scan says "they generally can only control chakra from one limb at a time" not "they generally can only release chakra from one limb at a time" Water walking/tree climbing is proof of this.
"they generally can only release chakra from one limb at a time" is something i never even implied. Releasing normal chakra from the hands/feet and doing ntn with it is wat requires zero difficulty. Releasing Chakra from every single Tenketsu and using it to block physical attacks from every and anywhere is what i keep saying requires difficulty.
Why do u think Kishi mentioned the words "Jonin , control , utilize and difficulty" ? Because Neji is also controlling and utilizing the released Chakra from every tenketsu simultaneously. Even Genin/chunin can utilize chakra for water-walking while also using the other limbs for jutsu. Releasing the chakra from anywhere/everywhere and actually using it for the defense or offense is something different.
Emitted chakra is difficult to control and Jonin generally can only control chakra like that for use from a single limb. The fact water walking requires expelling chakra from two limbs at a time shows the difficulty is not ascribed to expelling chakra but controlling expelled chakra as mere genin have little to no difficulty learning the water walking exercise.
The mere fact that genin find water walking easy should tell u that ur logic is missing something in this comparison.
-Difficulty is ascribed to both the release and control of the chakra from every tenketsu . Neji didn't just all of a sudden have the ability to release Chakra from everywhere until he gradually mastered Gentle fist hence this panel..
Not to mention Kakashi for one has shown not only to be able to utilize the chakra from two limbs, he can also apply Nature transformation to both breaking the difficulty threshold completely from that scan and yet you will put Genin Neji's CC over his because he has the ability to expel from all tenketsu while Kakashi doesn't?
The bold is correct yes. But you can't just claim that underlined in the bold. Kakashi can use chakra from two limbs at a time as opposed to the one limb which is the difficulty stated. He thrashes the only difficulty made known in that scan. But he still can't use rotation? Why? He doesn't have the ability to. Nothing suggests if he had gentle fist, he wouldn't be able to use Rotation.
Kakashi isn't a usual/average Jonin nor is he a Hyuuga but i'll elaborate more below. What makes CE Neji different from all the other adult Hyuga who had the potential to use Rotation but never could? What else if not CC? Neji had no teacher and learning Rotation depends on Chakra control at least logically. Lets not convolute this by adding people like Kakashi to the comparison as Hinata , Neji and all the other Hyuga operate in the same realm of comparison.
People like Kakashi are more easily compared to Sasuke while still proving the point. Chakra released from the whole body was always held in high regard by Kishi and no doubt takes some form of Chakra control. Sasuke could emit Chidori from his whole body not just his hands , unlike Kakashi.
Now we're saying the same thing but you're still not seeing where you're not applying this.
The bold is exactly and most definitely correct. The release of chakra has no difficulty. Neji having the know how to use all his tenketsu to release chakra before controlling it is not enough to put his Genin self's CC over every Jonin in the series when Jonin don't have the know how to use all their tenketsu.
The release of Chakra from everywhere has no difficulty attached? Despite Neji needing to Master the gentle fist before he gains such a perk?
Never placed his CC over every Jonin. Just followed Kishi's guidline that jonin find it difficult to control emitted chakra from only the hands and feet putting Neji above the usual Jonin in raw CC. Neji needed to master the Gentle fist before he could emit chakra from his entire body , so any Hyuga who cant do this has less mastery than Neji.
If they did, releasing would pose no difficulty for them all as we know they can emit chakra from two limbs with no difficulty (Water walking) but controlling the chakra that's released is where the difficulty with respect to control comes in. And someone like Kakashi and the entire Hyuga main house have broken that difficulty threshold and all with the exception of Hyuga head and heir cannot use rotation.
As i said , its more than simply the release of Chakra as u need to be a Gentle fist master before u can emit chakra from the entire body.
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That scan literally says if Neji wasn't a master then he wouldn't have the ability. The oral code is clearly training for the mastery of gentle fist to gain the ability of chakra release from the entire body followed by the control.
That first paragraph would only be correct if you can say for certain Hiashi knew the 4th war was coming and there's no way he would have known until the countdown to 4th war arc when info had reached all villages and that arc was immediately followed by the start of the 4th war.
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But its clear that days passed after the info reached the villages before the 4th war. No reason Hiashi or Neji wouldn't also start teaching her after Pain destroyed the village and before.
Not to mention if we were to use this protection for family which i think you're trying to push as a reason for Hiashi teaching her, then it should have been stated or hinted somewhere that Hizashi could also use Rotation seeing as he and Hiashi would have participated in the 3rd war. Also note that the DB more or less puts Hizashi's chakra control on the same level as Hiashi's yet the former could not use Rotation.
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Clearly a different timeline with a different status quo. Hizashi's dad would have no reason to break tradition and teach him along with Hiashi unlike in this timeline where Hiashi already changed..
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Learning how to release Chakra from every tenketsu is based on some form of Chakra control. Learning how to perfect it and use it for defense is based on Chakra control.
Bold: Noted , now explain in ur opinion a logic reason for how Hiashi having the ability to control his Chkara perfectly doesn't give him overall better chakra control than his brother?
I also have no issue with believing it would take Hinata longer than Neji did to learn Rotation.. I just don't believe it would take months upon months for absolutely no reason.
Highly doubt the bold. Naruto said that in part 1 but we know as at the Pain arc, Hiashi was away with Hanabi so she could get accustomed to heir matters.. i believe stated by Kishi himself.
Hinata was said to be a Master of gentle fist in the last and again as an adult. The last is two or so years after the series end. I have no problems thinking it took her from p2 to the Last movie , because based on ur logic she needed the oral lesson to even learn it in the first place no matter wat. So ur logic is fully based on wat year Hiashi decided to teach her.
Yet u claim Hiashi wouldn't break the heir tradition to try teaching her in p2 , while also saying he must of softened up and broken tradition years later by teaching adult or Last Hinta who wasn't the Heir. Hiashi aleady softened after the events of p1 and if special knowledge needed to to passed to unlock the use of tenketsu then Hiashi would've already told it to his heirs hence their knowledge of rotation in p1.
Bold: Naruto said it in the 4th war. He said Neji was going to change the Hyuga , not him. This hints that things were at best in motion for change. Hiashi being away at the Pain arc doesn't and wouldn't stop him from having left the secret knowledge with Hinata before or after the arc.
- It doesn't weaken my argument though. There probably would be an order to learning techniques which we don't know. They aren't just going to teach each and every technique to all clan members at once. Exclude Neji and you will see this. Why would Vacuum palm which looks like the most basic Hyuga tech make its intro in part 2? The Last Hanabi was even holding up a Kunai which isn't symbolic with the Hyuga style suggesting at that point she had only the taijutsu capabilities and nothing else. Not even Vacuum palm.
Why would he even show both of them the Rotation if he wasn't trying to give them some knowledge on it? Hanabi having only Taijutsu capabilities by that time w/ no defense despite being Heir should show u that its difficult to learn Rotation even with the knowledge on how to release Chakra.
-Nobody said Hiashi tried teaching them everything at once nor that he would even try teaching it to all clan members. Rotation is only passed to the Heir. Hinata knows of his Rotation and was the Heir. Hiashi trained her in Gentle fist for years before Hanabi. Then comes Hanabi who also knows of his Rotation and is the Heir. All evidence supports my logic that Hiashi tried teaching his heirs about the Rotation.
Thats an upgraded puppet. We dont know how Chyo made it nor how it works so why even mention it? Show a normal human using it without any puppet techs lol.
The first statement is giving Neji too much credit. So Neji tried to create new techniques for himself and just happened to create Rotation and 64 palms which the main house uses? Same name and all?
I don't believe i've said or implied the oral code gives advanced chakra control. The whole reason for this argument was my trying to prove 64 palms is more difficult to master than Rotation. Rotation requires an oral code which i've postulated to be how to release chakra from all tenketsu. Post releasing the chakra from all tenketsu is where the difficulty in that scan comes in.
Agreed. Neji simply re-created it after either hearing about it or seeing Hiashi show his heirs at different points in time..
-Tenten confirms that Neji's defense was perfected on this day meanwhile he had already perfected 64 Palms.
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No reason for 64 palms being harder to master for Neji when the Rotation was the last thing being perfected before heading out along with the fact that Neji could already hit tenketsu mid-combat back in the CE prelims. Again 64 Palms is based on raw physical ability.
If the Hyuga main house has already shown chakra control surpassing the difficulty of one limb at a time, then it doesn't seem logical it will take years upon years to be able to control the chakra from all tenketsu for spinning. 64 palms however requires more for it to be used. But it also doesn't mean learning 64 palms would take years to master either.
Hinata did take years to master 64 palms. 32 was her limit by the War arc so Hinata at the very start of P2 would logically have a lower limit. Thats about 2 to 3 years after Naruto left in p1..
64 palm is a raw physical move , Hinata's chakra control wasn't the thing stopping her from learning it. She already had the physical stats by that point , it was simply held back by her own self doubt. On the other-hand she clearly didn't have the ability to release and control Chakra from her body during the War nor would she instantly gain that ability after pulling the full 64 palms which is why i said u cant compare it to Rotation.
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For example , would u claim Hinata making it up to 2 or 4 palms out of 64 is the same difficulty as first learning how to emit chakra from the entire body simultaneously?
Rotation alone isn't the beginning as she says that before he executes 64 palms and she isn't joining the techniques as one show of strength either. That Neji's true show of strength is only beginning means whatever he did prior was also a show of strength but what he's about to do is a tier higher hence "true"
Your not even addressing my questions bro. Again , What do u think she meant when she said "And thats not the end of it"? What do u think the "IT' refers to??? Neji's show of strength right? , and Rotation was the start of the show. This is why she addresses Rotation as "Neji's defense"..
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Neji showing his defense without showing his offense wouldn't be his true show of strength which is why it was just the beginning. In terms of offense clearly 64 palms would be his true show of strength which is why kishi made sure to directly address the comparison using words like defense to address Rotation.
A good certificate (Rotation) highlights something positive to prospective employers but doesn't prove assurance of being able to deliver the goods as tangible work experience (64 Palms) would.
And having one aspect of a technique greater in X than another which has an aspect greater in Y than the first technique doesn't mean they can't be compared. Puppetry is C-rank while Leaf Hurricane is B-rank. C-ranks are Chunin level techs while B-ranks are Jonin level techs. The higher ranked one is going to be more difficult to master irrespective of one aspect greater than the other or not.
No because Rotation was said to be THE high grade TAIJUTSU that made his genius known during the exams.
Rotation would also qualify in that sense as its said to be THE , high grade Taijutsu that made his genius known at the exam , with keyword being "the". That holds it over 64 palms but since both are held in equal regard in different notes we can use both as proof of his genius.
-We dont have ranks to compare Rotation to 64 palms. What Rotation has going for it is the fact that the Hyuga saw great reason in making it Leader to Heir exclusive only. It's portrayal in the war also puts it above 64 palms.
Yes it would require training. No tech in the entire series is learnt off the bat. That is fact. What i'm saying is the oral thing needed to be taught is how to release chakra from all tenketsu. Releasing chakra has zero difficulty. The scan says "they generally can only control chakra from one limb at a time" not "they generally can only release chakra from one limb at a time" Water walking/tree climbing is proof of this.
But how is that oral lesson not based on Chakra control when it gives you the ability to release Chakra from every tenketsu? Nobody claimed that simply releasing Chakra takes difficulty , unless u meant that releasing chakra from everywhere requires no difficulty? If you do then this would mean every Adult Hyuga can release Chakra from all points simultaneously neg diff , but need a oral lesson to gain control for ultilization instead of simply trainng through the years to gain that level of control? Then how is that not a feat for Neji's CC as he did it all by himself?
Ninja Registry Number: 005160
Birthdate: January 8 (32 years old at death; Capricorn)
Height: 176.5 cm Weight: 66.3 kg Blood type: B
Specialty Jutsu: Taijutsu, Byakugan
Statistics
Ninjutsu: 3.5
Taijutsu: 4.5
Genjutsu: 2
Intelligence: 3
Strength: 4
Speed: 4
Stamina: 4
Hand Seals: 5
“With your permission, allow me to do this…
The man whose tragic fate defied destiny
Existing for the sake of protecting the main family, decisions of defiance are not permitted for the branch family. [Hizashi is] Hiashi’s younger twin brother who lived bearing that sad fate. At one point, despite that he hated the main family, at the end of his life he had wanted to protect Konoha, the home of his beloved son Neji, and so he chose a fate that was considered a death a for the sake of protecting the main family, and went to die honorably.
Like his older twin Hiashi, he excelled in taijutsu and chakra control. He surpassed Hiashi in terms of physical strength.
This was the “freedom” that Hizashi finally obtained.
He resented the main family, and even suffered for it at times.
The bold put Hizashi's chakra control and Taijutsu on the same level has Hiashi. If they were inferior, it would have been stated as it says right there that he surpassed his brother in Physical strength. Which means Hizashi could also probably do Wall palm just like Hiashi yet he couldn't use Rotation why? Probably because he couldn't figure what was needed to release from all tenketsu which isn't related to chakra control.
The Bold doesn't make sense. Clearly its related to Chakra control just as any other form of chakra release. How would Neji and Sasuke even learn to release Chakra from their whole body if not for some method of Chakra contrl? Its not like they gained some mystic power-up.
-Both Hiashi and Hizashi excelled at CC equally , one bro was taught how to release and control all his tenketsu chakra while the other wasn't. Yes that contradicts the implications of them being equal in CC but how does that make sense when Hiashi literally has more control over his own Chakra than Hizashi after Rotation? Maybe Kishi didn't want to make it seem like Hiashi surpassed his brother in CC due to his own ability like Neji did.
Again, Rotation requires releasing chakra first. The control comes after and that's where the difficulty comes in. "Chakra that is emitted is difficult to control"
In that other thread, you were using the fact Neji was the only one aside from Hiashi that was shown utilizing all his tenketsu as proof that Rotation is extremely difficult to learn. And i've been trying to tell you releasing chakra alone has no difficulty. Neji just happened to figure out how to release from all his tenketsu. Other Hyuga's didn't but it doesn't mean they couldn't if they were taught.
But ur acting like this isn't a feat for Neji's chakra control.How isn't this based on Chakra control? How is having the ability to control ur Chakra perfectly from all tenketsu not some form of Chakra control? How is Neji learning this by himself not proof of his Chakra control being above the Hyuga norm who couldn't even as adults?
If Neji just happened to figure out how to release from all his tenketsu then Kishi wouldn't of wrote these two panels in this context regarding Chakra control and the fact that usual Jonin can only manage control and use of very few Tenketsu.
This is blatant nonsense. Calling Rotation and 64 palm basic when War Ac Hinata couldn't even use them with years of training. Says TLF>>>better feats than Rotation when Rotation is clearly the harder tech to learn/use. Chunin Hinata from the Last never surpassed Neji w/o Hamura Chakra arguments.
Well Neji is dead - pretty sure a lifeless body isn't very hard to surpass. So yes, currently, she is the strongest of the Hyuuga.
Featwise she has come on the most. Doesn't really matter how long it took to master something the point is she has meaning she had the skill to do it. I am also inclined to agree with the fact Hinabi has been irrelevant for the majority of the series. I just don't know enough to make a judgement about her.
Neji is probably more gifted than her. However since he died his progression stopped. Hers carried on eventually out growing him. You have to remember they're all very young in the war arc. They had years ahead of them to develop and grow. Since Neji died we'll never know his true potential/how far he could have gone. I do think Hinata prime would have out grown war arc Neji/her dad.
Well Neji is dead - pretty sure a lifeless body isn't very hard to surpass. So yes, currently, she is the strongest of the Hyuuga.
Featwise she has come on the most. Doesn't really matter how long it took to master something the point is she has meaning she had the skill to do it. I am also inclined to agree with the fact Hinabi has been irrelevant for the majority of the series. I just don't know enough to make a judgement about her.
Neji is probably more gifted than her. However since he died his progression stopped. Hers carried on eventually out growing him. You have to remember they're all very young in the war arc. They had years ahead of them to develop and grow. Since Neji died we'll never know his true potential/how far he could have gone. I do think Hinata prime would have out grown war arc Neji/her dad.
Problem with that logic is we cant use it to know exactly when she surpassed him. Logically this would've been after she received Hamura's chakra. I can agree with the rest as anything can happen to a persons power over the years but the lifeless body thing doesn't work not to mention you never even addressed a single thing i said in the quote..
Yo Jinrou , sorry bout the long post , i suck at them. Could condense/convert our debate into only the main points that really matter? I feel almost convoluted with all the other notions being tossed in..
Them having the means to use the tech doesn't mean the control of Chakra emitted from every/any tenketsu simultaneously becomes any easier even with Byakugan. This is why no other adult Hyuga figured it out by chance , even if they saw how it worked in action . Its simply a different type of Chakra control that was never explained.
Neji didn't just happen to figure out how to release from any/all his tenketsu. Tenten hints that before Neji's defense became "perfect" with training , he received scratches beforehand..
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The only way he could receive scratches is if he wasn't able to release chakra and control/harden chakra from every tenketsu which lead to his body getting scratched in the earlier stages of training. It makes sense that Neji at the very start could only release and utilize Chakra from only his hands and feet until he unlocked the rest or learnt how to control and harden his whole defense which explains Tenten saying its now perfected.
- @bold Why? The byakugan helps with Chakra control is what is implied in the DB. Doesn't that mean CC becomes easier if you have the byakugan? 16 x 16 is easily solved by a calculator and longer number questions that could include subtraction, division and so on are still easily solved by a calc too? I don't really get the logic?
- @underlined.. but that's because there is a secret to being able to use all tenketsu first. Do they have Gentle fist? Yes. Do they have great CC? Yes. They meet all the criteria except the first statement. The same logic is applicable to 64 palms too as just like you say, it requires just raw physical ability but despite branch house members seeing it first hand multiple times, they can't replicate it because there are secrets that need to be known first.
- That spoiler is telling me Tenten was with Neji all the while he was practicing Rotation but that goes against the DB description of Rotation where it says its orally taught meaning there's no need for the teacher's intervention?
Its more like Neji told her about a new defensive move he has and urges Tenten to hurl weapons at him. Neji doesn't spin which means she doesn't see the chakra emitted (like Naruto and Kido couldn't) and is surprised at her weapons falling out of the sky without even reaching him and exclaims "Its perfect"... If she was there whenever he received scratches prior, then wouldn't the right statement there be "Its finally perfect" to show she was with him all the while?
- Removed part is based off the chakra being able to block physical attacks as a GF only ability that i will touch on later in the Chiyo part.
Kakashi isn't a usual/average Jonin nor is he a Hyuuga.. What makes CE Neji different from all the other adult Hyuga who had the potential to use Rotation but never could? What else if not CC? Neji had no teacher and learning Rotation depends on Chakra control at least logically. Lets not convolute this by adding people like Kakashi to the comparison as Hinata , Neji and all the other Hyuga operate in the same realm of comparison.
- Statement about Kakashi is true but doesn't change the fact he's still a Jonin and 'Jonin' generally was used not Hyuga Jonin. Btw, of all the main Jonin we know, Asuma and Kakashi are the only ones who use Chakra related attacks and both have thrashed the difficulty with respect to control stated in that scan. [
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] Asuma's statement there confirms he uses nature transformation when he uses both blades.
- What makes CE Neji different is the fact he knows/figured the secret to releasing from all tenketsu. It isn't logical that his CC is > every Adult Hyuga before him. How can that even happen?
That pre pain arc Naruto completed what Minato and Kakashi couldn't doesn't mean his CC at that point was > theirs. He just had the means to be able to complete it in the same way Neji knows/has the means to release from all tenketsu first (GF mastery like you admit the code most likely points to) then control. The Hyuga adults don't have that means. They are the Minato and Kakashi in this case.
That CE Neji knows the means to executing 64 palms doesn't mean his taijutsu is > say adult branch house members who by manga standards only have Taijutsu, Vacuum Palm and possibly Wall Palm as the only GF techs they can use. Their taijutsu would have to be far above average honed by numerous experiences since they don't have the clans strongest defense/offenses to use. CE Neji's best taijutsu showing is against p1 Hinata and Naruto who were far below him in ability. It can't even be compared.
But its clear that days passed after the info reached the villages before the 4th war. No reason Hiashi or Neji wouldn't also start teaching her after Pain destroyed the village.
Clearly a different timeline with a different status quo. Hizashi's dad would have no reason to break tradition and teach him along with Hiashi unlike in this timeline..
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Learning how to release Chakra from every tenketsu is based on some form of Chakra control. Learning how to perfect it and use it for defense is based on Chakra control.
Hiashi had no need to break the status quo either.
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of that scan confirms two things. One was Hiashi no longer saw branch house members as possible meat shields (no proof he even looked at them that way before btw.. Hiashi was not evil but only strict. Neji just portrayed him as evil to us as he didn't know the true story) while the second is the Branch and Main house setup is still a thing. TLF came out in the 4th DB and it states "taught only to main house members" That also proves at least in Kishi's mind that even in part 2, the teaching setup was also still a thing in the clan. Your post doesn't also give a reason why Hiashi won't have taught his brother.
Hinata was said to be a Master of gentle fist in the last and again as an adult. The last is two or so years after the series end. I have no problems thinking it took her from p2 to the Last movie , because based on ur logic she needed the oral lesson to even learn it in the first place no matter wat. So ur logic is fully based on wat year Hiashi decided to teach her.
Yet u claim Hiashi wouldn't break the heir tradition to try teaching her in p2 , while also saying he must of softened up and broken tradition years later by teaching adult or Last Hinta who wasn't the Heir. Hiashi aleady softened after the events of p1 and if special knowledge needed to to passed to unlock the use of tenketsu then Hiashi would've already told it to his heirs hence their knowledge of rotation.
Bold: Naruto said it in the 4th war. He said Neji was going to change the Hyuga , not him. This hints that things were at best in motion for change. Hiashi being away doesn't and wouldn't stop from from having left the secret knowledge with Hinata before or after the arc.
- lol had no idea she was called a GF master in the Last. But by that logic, then she should have at least demonstrated body blow and i recollect you proving she couldn't so what's the catch?
- Neji knew about Rotation before he opted to recreate it same with 64 palms. Doesn't mean he was told the secrets. The same can apply to the sisters.
- Oh.. my bad then with saying he said so in part 1 but it doesn't change the fact that is not enough reason to postulate Hiashi would teach the secrets to someone he didn't consider heir.
Why would he even show both of them the Rotation if he wasn't trying to give them some knowledge on it? Hanabi having only Taijutsu capabilities by that time w/ no defense despite being Heir should show u that its difficult to learn Rotation even with the knowledge on how to release Chakra.
-Nobody said Hiashi tried teaching them everything at once nor that he would even try teaching it to all clan members. Rotation is only passed to the Heir. Hinata knows of his Rotation and was the Heir. Hiashi trained her in Gentle fist for years before Hanabi. Then comes Hanabi who also knows of his Rotation and is the Heir. All evidence supports my logic that Hiashi tried teaching his heirs about the Rotation.
Because she needs to at least be Gentle fist master before she can even emit Chakra from her entire body as per manga.
- First part makes it seem like he was desperate to teach his heirs everything at once. Like i said, there probably would be an order. Teaching would start with the basics and we both know Rotation isn't basic. Vacuum palm is basic but The Last Hanabi and part 1 Hinata didn't have that.
- Yes.. something we both agree is what the oral code refers to but i'm saying the manga ascribes no difficulty to. Emitted chakra only can physically block attacks according to Tenten. The manga ascribed controlling emitted chakra as difficult.. it didn't ascribe the difficulty to merely emitting the chakra. That Genin can emit chakra from two limbs at a time proves difficulty wasn't placed on emitting chakra in that scan.
Hinata never showed the latter from other points in p2 which points to her not even having the knowledge for just the emission in the first place.
Thats an upgraded puppet. We dont know how Chyo made it nor how it works so why even mention it? Show a normal human using it without any puppet techs lol.
lol come on man. I don't have to bring its DB description before you understand that a puppet arm upgraded or not has no limitations with respect to tenketsu like a non hyuga human arm.. so she could channel her chakra into it and release from the sides to form a shield. She even does it with her own puppet arm too [
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]. Kankuro also does similar with Sasori's puppet iirc.
Besides, puppets have no chakra changing or enhancing properties so that is just the user's regular chakra with no Gentle fist.
Agreed. Neji simply re-created it after either hearing about it or seeing Hiashi show his heirs at different points in time..
-Tenten confirms that Neji's defense was perfected on this day meanwhile he had already perfected 64 Palms.
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No reason for 64 palms being harder to master for Neji when the Rotation was the last thing being perfected before heading out along with the fact that Neji could already hit tenketsu mid-combat back in the CE prelims. Again 64 Palms is based on raw physical ability.
- Neji hitting tenketsu mid combat against someone inferior to him doesn't prove he had 64 palms. Except you are okay with saying no other single branch member can hit tenketsu mid combat seeing as they can't do 64 palms?
Hinata did take years to master 64 palms. 32 was her limit by the War arc so Hinata at the very start of P2 would logically have a lower limit. Thats about 2 to 3 years after Naruto left in p1..
64 palm is a raw physical move , Hinata's chakra control wasn't the thing stopping her from learning it. She already had the physical stats by that point , it was simply held back by her own self doubt. On the other-hand she clearly didn't have the ability to release and control Chakra from her body during the War nor would she instantly gain that ability after pulling the full 64 palms which is why i said u cant compare it to Rotation.
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For example , would u claim Hinata making it up to 2 or 4 palms out of 64 is the same difficulty as first learning how to emit chakra from the entire body simultaneously?
I don't think Chakra control is needed in execution of 64 palms.. i also don't think i've mentioned such before but like i've said, it doesn't mean they can't be compared in terms of difficulty. Byakugou a chakra only tech is > Leaf hurricane a taijutsu only tech which is > Puppetry. A chakra only tech.
And i highly doubt it took her years. Her memory of Neji before she completes it suggests she started learning at some point in part 2.
Your not even addressing my questions bro. Again , What do u think she meant when she said "And thats not the end of it"? What do u think the "IT' refers to??? Neji's show of strength right? , and Rotation was the start of the show. This is why she addresses Rotation as "Neji's defense"..
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Neji showing his defense without showing his offense wouldn't be his true show of strength which is why it was just the beginning. In terms of offense clearly 64 palms would be his true show of strength which is why kishi made sure to directly address the comparison using words like defense to address Rotation.
Rotation would also qualify in that sense as its said to be THE , high grade Taijutsu that made his genius known at the exam , with keyword being "the". That holds it over 64 palms but since both are held in equal regard in different notes we can use both as proof of his genius.
-We dont have ranks to compare Rotation to 64 palms. What Rotation has going for it is the fact that the Hyuga saw great reason in making it Leader to Heir exclusive only. It's portrayal in the war also puts it above 64 palms.
But i have. That she says that's not the end of it implies Rotation is a show of strength and the next act is also a show of strength albeit on a higher tier hence "true show of strength"
Really, we need only gauge Hiashi's thoughts and reactions at this point. He expresses shock at the start of the 64 palms more expressive than at the start of rotation [
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]-[
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] and after seeing these techniques, he attributes showing rotation to his brilliance while the first statement he makes after seeing 64 palms is he has surpassed main.
He knows the level of difficulty of each as well as the secrets. I would think if Rotation is extremely Kage level difficult and being heir exclusive, then its praise should have been more and the DB shouldn't have used the 64 palms in that box.
- That's the thing.. TLF is also regarded as a high level(synonym of grade) technique but i still wouldn't put it over 64 palms in terms of difficulty. But yeah this entire part is also kind of irrelevant so you can ignore this.
The Bold doesn't make sense. Clearly its related to Chakra control just as any other form of chakra release. How would Neji even learn it? Its not like he gained some mystic power-up.
-Both Bros excelled at CC , one bro was taught how to release and control all his tenketsu chakra while the other wasn't.
- Because Neji figured out the code that would allow him use all his tenketsu to release chakra. Regular Shinobi have only four places they can release chakra consciously from. Hands and Feet. They have no problem releasing from them simultaneously so what suggests if they could release from all their points they would have trouble with just releasing? Controlling is a different matter entirely that's what the scan was trying to pass across.
- One bro wasn't taught how to release from all his tenketsu. Doesn't mean his CC is less than the one who knew how to especially when the DB more or less puts their CC on the same level.
But ur acting like this isn't a feat for Neji's chakra control.How isn't this based on Chakra control? How is having the ability to control ur Chakra perfectly not some form of Chakra control? How is Neji learning this by himself not proof of his Chakra control being above the Hyuga norm??
If the release of Chakra from the entire body was so easy then other Hyuga would've simply gained the ability over the years and Kishi wouldn't of wrote these two panels in this context regarding Chakra control.
It is a feat of Neji's CC.. Apologies if i've made it seem otherwise. But what i've been saying is that scan does not put Neji's CC over top Jonin and even Adult Hyuga Jonin nor state releasing chakra from all tenketsu has any difficulty. Why? Because the only difficulty stated in that scan is One limb at a time.
Other Ninjas surpass this difficulty but can't use Rotation because they do not know the code.. That thing that would be said to give you Mastery over Gentle fist in the same way Kakashi gave points to Naruto that enabled him create the rasenshuriken or the points he gave Naruto, Sasuke and Sakura to be able to perform the Tree walking exercise.
Even if i believe that Hinata was taught that code in part 2, then it doesn't make much logical sense as to how she couldn't at the very very least emit chakra from any other part on one arm -not the whole body this time- Maybe forearm or anything till this boruto era. She isn't going to go from being unable to even emit chakra from other parts for years then all of a sudden it becomes possible to do that + the spin.
At the very least in NV, you either outright fail in trying to master a technique like Shizune (Byakugou).. Minato, Kakashi, Jiraiya (Elemental rasengan).. Neji, Tenten (Front Lotus) or you master the technique than take years learning just one in particular. Either Hinata is outright completely terrible in understanding what it takes to emit from all tenketsu (Which can't be possible.. her intelligence stat was even higher than Neji's in the last DB with stats) or she was given that code closer to when she finally learns it. Not years before.
The cause of this entire thing is because i believe you've once said;
- Rotation > 64 palms in difficulty because Hinata couldn't use the latter in the War arc/Even expel from any other body part in the war arc
- TLF > 64 palms because she had the former before the latter (when logically we can assume she learnt TLF before she started with 64 palms) and
- Wall Palm is the most difficult Hyuga tech because Neji couldn't do it on his own. (This was a long time ago though... Not sure if its even you that said so lol)
I don't agree with but respect your opinions.. My only issue is with those reasons. They aren't good enough imo. If we were to base difficulty of techniques on characters that can/can't use them, then Rasengan for example would be an easy to learn tech since P1 Naruto (known for his average chakra control) and P2 Konohamaru could use it or P1 Naruto's cc > P1 Sakura's cc since she's never seen using Rasengan in P1 or at all. Both cases are clearly false.
Debating this much is so exhausting though.. Christ. xD
- @bold Why? The byakugan helps with Chakra control is what is implied in the DB. Doesn't that mean CC becomes easier if you have the byakugan? 16 x 16 is easily solved by a calculator and longer number questions that could include subtraction, division and so on are still easily solved by a calc too? I don't really get the logic?
- @underlined.. but that's because there is a secret to being able to use all tenketsu first. Do they have Gentle fist? Yes. Do they have great CC? Yes. They meet all the criteria except the first statement. The same logic is applicable to 64 palms too as just like you say, it requires just raw physical ability but despite branch house members seeing it first hand multiple times, they can't replicate it because there are secrets that need to be known first.
- That spoiler is telling me Tenten was with Neji all the while he was practicing Rotation but that goes against the DB description of Rotation where it says its orally taught meaning there's no need for the teacher's intervention?
Neji learning it himself is proof of this. You do agree that what Neji did to learn it could only have been related to Chakra control right? What else could it possibly be?
Its more like Neji told her about a new defensive move he has and urges Tenten to hurl weapons at him. Neji doesn't spin which means she doesn't see the chakra emitted (like Naruto and Kido couldn't) and is surprised at her weapons falling out of the sky without even reaching him and exclaims "Its perfect"... If she was there whenever he received scratches prior, then wouldn't the right statement there be "Its finally perfect" to show she was with him all the while?
- Removed part is based off the chakra being able to block physical attacks as a GF only ability that i will touch on later in the Chiyo part.
- Statement about Kakashi is true but doesn't change the fact he's still a Jonin and 'Jonin' generally was used not Hyuga Jonin. Btw, of all the main Jonin we know, Asuma and Kakashi are the only ones who use Chakra related attacks and both have thrashed the difficulty with respect to control stated in that scan. [
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] Asuma's statement there confirms he uses nature transformation when he uses both blades.
- What makes CE Neji different is the fact he knows/figured the secret to releasing from all tenketsu. It isn't logical that his CC is > every Adult Hyuga before him. How can that even happen?
Kishi used Jonin as a means to show the difficulty of what Neji did. Surely by feats even Hyuuga Jonin failed for generations in coming up with Rotation on their own and dont say they never even tried. We cant ignore the fact that this ability is clearly based around Chakra control. You have yet to explain how this would not be based around CC. Code is not a valid reason.
-It doesn't need to be orally transmitted as Neji proved this , so give a logical reason to how Neji could've figured it out that isn't based in Chakra controlling. This is the reason im against the notion , i cant think of a logical reason that isn't based on Chakra control.
That pre pain arc Naruto completed what Minato and Kakashi couldn't doesn't mean his CC at that point was > theirs. He just had the means to be able to complete it in the same way Neji knows/has the means to release from all tenketsu first (GF mastery like you admit the code most likely points to) then control. The Hyuga adults don't have that means. They are the Minato and Kakashi in this case.
That CE Neji knows the means to executing 64 palms doesn't mean his taijutsu is > say adult branch house members who by manga standards only have Taijutsu, Vacuum Palm and possibly Wall Palm as the only GF techs they can use. Their taijutsu would have to be far above average honed by numerous experiences since they don't have the clans strongest defense/offenses to use. CE Neji's best taijutsu showing is against p1 Hinata and Naruto who were far below him in ability. It can't even be compared.
I agree with the first part. But we were given logical reasons in the manga for why Naruto accomplished this and why Minato/Kakashi failed. You have yet to explain nor give a single logical reason for why the method in which Neji used to attain Kaiten wasn't based on CC. He wasn't taught via oral tradition , nor was he guided by like Naruto through his feat , yet even Naruto's method was also based in Chakra control till perfection. What means did Neji that wouldn't be based on his own CC?
-Neven implied the Bold. But it doesn't take away from Kishi's portrayal of what Neji did. He's simply more skilled than every other Hyuuga by far and this was stressed in the manga. Hiruzen's statement that Neji is the greatest Hyuga genius in its history confirms this and doesn't lose weight simply because this showing was against Hinata , same as Naruto. Using that logic one could say weightless Lee w/1st Gate active wouldn't get his chakra-points touched by Neji since Neji did it to Hinata and Naruto who are both tiers slower.
Neji and Hinata operate in the same realm of comparison to compare rate of progress. Neji took 2 months to Master 64 palms+Rotation w/o training. We know that Hiashi trained both which would've started in p1, and we know Neji began teaching her 64 palms somewhere in p2 or before. P2 ran the span of a year so if we compare rate of progress Hinata took 1 year to master 64 palms w/ the exact training. Now we cant gauge exactly how long it would've taken Neji to learn 64 palms by itself with the same level of trainng , but it's obvious he'd take less than 2 months.
We dont know how long it would take the average Adult Hyuga to learn 64 palms with the right training. But CE Neji knowing the means and having the ability to execute 64 palms + Rotation by himself clearly puts his raw skill above every other Hyuga in history , doesn't mean his taijutsu is > say adult branch house members , but his raw skill is clearly>>>>>>>>> and i think i these pages combined makes that very clear.
Hiashi had no need to break the status quo either.
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of that scan confirms two things. One was Hiashi no longer saw branch house members as possible meat shields (no proof he even looked at them that way before btw.. Hiashi was not evil but only strict. Neji just portrayed him as evil to us as he didn't know the true story) while the second is the Branch and Main house setup is still a thing. TLF came out in the 4th DB and it states "taught only to main house members" That also proves at least in Kishi's mind that even in part 2, the teaching setup was also still a thing in the clan. Your post doesn't also give a reason why Hiashi won't have taught his brother.
- lol had no idea she was called a GF master in the Last. But by that logic, then she should have at least demonstrated body blow and i recollect you proving she couldn't so what's the catch?
- Neji knew about Rotation before he opted to recreate it same with 64 palms. Doesn't mean he was told the secrets. The same can apply to the sisters.
- Oh.. my bad then with saying he said so in part 1 but it doesn't change the fact that is not enough reason to postulate Hiashi would teach the secrets to someone he didn't consider heir.
-Lol Salamander was the one who informed me. Honestly i dont think that notation on the Last was written by Kishi , based on feats she doesn't have it unless Toneri grabbing her wrist and holding it prevented her from using her Chakra but if so they would've said it + if they really wanted to show her Mastery they would've at least shown it. At least we know that the notation written about her mastery in the Boruto series was 100% Kishi....
-So ur basically saying Adult Hinata doesn't have Rotation as she isn't heir nor did she figure it out , while also saying Hanabi at best took a couple years to learn Rotation w/training as Heir.
- First part makes it seem like he was desperate to teach his heirs everything at once. Like i said, there probably would be an order. Teaching would start with the basics and we both know Rotation isn't basic. Vacuum palm is basic but The Last Hanabi and part 1 Hinata didn't have that.
- Yes.. something we both agree is what the oral code refers to but i'm saying the manga ascribes no difficulty to. Emitted chakra only can physically block attacks according to Tenten. The manga ascribed controlling emitted chakra as difficult.. it didn't ascribe the difficulty to merely emitting the chakra. That Genin can emit chakra from two limbs at a time proves difficulty wasn't placed on emitting chakra in that scan.
Hinata never showed the latter from other points in p2 which points to her not even having the knowledge for just the emission in the first place.
-Hiashi doesn't need to desperate in order to give his heirs a demonstration of a jutsu which is their birthright. Just like a King passes his sword to his son Rotation is passed as the jutsu in which the Heir would aspire for.
-But how can u ascribe zero difficulty to something that requires Mastery over something of a high level? My stance was always that emitted chakra + control was the difficult part from the start. So im not sure why u keep saying this.
lol come on man. I don't have to bring its DB description before you understand that a puppet arm upgraded or not has no limitations with respect to tenketsu like a non hyuga human arm.. so she could channel her chakra into it and release from the sides to form a shield. She even does it with her own puppet arm too [
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]. Kankuro also does similar with Sasori's puppet iirc.
Besides, puppets have no chakra changing or enhancing properties so that is just the user's regular chakra with no Gentle fist.
Again. You simply cannot use a puppet mod in this comparison. Look at Sasori's real body for etc. Show me a human using raw chakra to do this. Can Chyo do that with her other arm which isn't modded? No she cannot.
- Neji hitting tenketsu mid combat against someone inferior to him doesn't prove he had 64 palms. Except you are okay with saying no other single branch member can hit tenketsu mid combat seeing as they can't do 64 palms?
Bold is true , but its clearly wat lead to 64 palms as its the reason Neji was called greatest genius in hyuga history and why Kakashi was sweating at the feat and gave this extra note at the bottom left.
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Clearly adult members would have what it takes to do this. But this clearly wasn't something anyone else in the whole history of the clan was pulling off at Neji's age , hence Hiruzen's statement. After simply seeing this Hiruzen gave him the title of greatest Genius in history which includes memebrs from the head-branch. Clearly hitting Tenketsu mid-combat is a higher level feat than u think.
I don't think Chakra control is needed in execution of 64 palms.. i also don't think i've mentioned such before but like i've said, it doesn't mean they can't be compared in terms of difficulty. Byakugou a chakra only tech is > Leaf hurricane a taijutsu only tech which is > Puppetry. A chakra only tech.
And i highly doubt it took her years. Her memory of Neji before she completes it suggests she started learning at some point in part 2.
Never exactly meant they cant be compared. I said a person having one doesn't instantly give him the same difficulty in getting the other since both are based on 2 diffrent things. Some people find Chakra control easier than physical moves and other Hyuga have better talents in different fields like eye-sight. Gai can use leaf hurricane yet would like struggle to use Chakra strings.
-Well at best it took her a year to learn it w/Training as this hints to alot of trial and error.
But i have. That she says that's not the end of it implies Rotation is a show of strength and the next act is also a show of strength albeit on a higher tier hence "true show of strength"
Really, we need only gauge Hiashi's thoughts and reactions at this point. He expresses shock at the start of the 64 palms more expressive than at the start of rotation [
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]-[
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] and after seeing these techniques, he attributes showing rotation to his brilliance while the first statement he makes after seeing 64 palms is he has surpassed main.
He knows the level of difficulty of each as well as the secrets. I would think if Rotation is extremely Kage level difficult and being heir exclusive, then its praise should have been more and the DB shouldn't have used the 64 palms in that box.
- That's the thing.. TLF is also regarded as a high level(synonym of grade) technique but i still wouldn't put it over 64 palms in terms of difficulty. But yeah this entire part is also kind of irrelevant so you can ignore this.
Then why do you think Tenten addresses Rotation as Neji's defense? Because thats what it is. 64 Palms is his strongest offense which is why its his true show strength and Rotation was just the beginning. You have to understand that these two techniques make up his overall true show of strength. If Neji showed 64 palms w/o showing Rotation or vice versa , would that be his true show of strength? No because its not his true showing.
-Hiashi simply never expected Neji to have both Rotation (Ultimate defense) + 64 palms (Ultimate Taijutsu) at the same time. His reactions make sense as he would also need to react to the showing of 64 palm. If Neji had showed 64 palms before Rotation Hiashi would've reacted just the same. Hiashi after seeing Rotation followed by 64 palms makes this statement , not 64 palms by itself.
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-If we took the db note at face value then 64 palm would be the only proof of his genius and ntn else. But by looking at Rotation's note we get basically the same thing just diffrent wording. Lets just logically conclude that both are equal proof of his genius. Both are hard to Master w/training and thats simply logical.
- Because Neji figured out the code that would allow him use all his tenketsu to release chakra. Regular Shinobi have only four places they can release chakra consciously from. Hands and Feet. They have no problem releasing from them simultaneously so what suggests if they could release from all their points they would have trouble with just releasing? Controlling is a different matter entirely that's what the scan was trying to pass across.
- One bro wasn't taught how to release from all his tenketsu. Doesn't mean his CC is less than the one who knew how to especially when the DB more or less puts their CC on the same level.
Bold isn't a reason for why Neji's method of learning Tenketsu control isn't based on Chakra control as the notion itself doesn't make sense to me. How could a code give him that ability without someone to pass the code in which u think is a requirment? How could it not be related to CC based on its concept?
-Hiashi doesn't need to have better Chakra control in order to have more CC than his brother. Give Hizashi the training and both still have the same. But logically Hiashi can factually control his Chakra in its purest definition.
It is a feat of Neji's CC.. Apologies if i've made it seem otherwise. But what i've been saying is that scan does not put Neji's CC over top Jonin and even Adult Hyuga Jonin nor state releasing chakra from all tenketsu has any difficulty. Why? Because the only difficulty stated in that scan is One limb at a time.
Other Ninjas surpass this difficulty but can't use Rotation because they do not know the code.. That thing that would be said to give you Mastery over Gentle fist in the same way Kakashi gave points to Naruto that enabled him create the rasenshuriken or the points he gave Naruto, Sasuke and Sakura to be able to perform the Tree walking exercise.
So ur saying this code gives more chakra control but isn't based on CC? Hebi Sasuke can also emit Chakra from his whole body despite not knowing this code.
Even if i believe that Hinata was taught that code in part 2, then it doesn't make much logical sense as to how she couldn't at the very very least emit chakra from any other part on one arm -not the whole body this time- Maybe forearm or anything till this boruto era. She isn't going to go from being unable to even emit chakra from other parts for years then all of a sudden it becomes possible to do that + the spin.
tenketsu (Which can't be possible.. her intelligence stat was even higher than Neji's in the last DB with stats) or she was given that code closer to when she finally learns it. Not years before.
Because emitting Chakra from everywhere and using it for defense is difficult as i keep telling u. It requires GF mastery which u keep underating for some reason. Why is it so hard to accept that Hinata took years to master her art?
-If u want to assume she was given the code thats fine. But u cant assume how long it took for her to learn then Master Rotation.
The cause of this entire thing is because i believe you've once said;
- Rotation > 64 palms in difficulty because Hinata couldn't use the latter in the War arc/Even expel from any other body part in the war arc
- TLF > 64 palms because she had the former before the latter (when logically we can assume she learnt TLF before she started with 64 palms) and
- Wall Palm is the most difficult Hyuga tech because Neji couldn't do it on his own. (This was a long time ago though... Not sure if its even you that said so lol)
I put Rotation above 64 palms because of Manga portrayal and actual usefulness. There is a reason its heir exclusive and i see no reason to put 32 palms above it.
-I placed 64 palms above TLF because War arc Hinata had problems with it yet by Pain arc already mastered TLF.
-I placed Wall palm as the hardest simply because Neji doesn't have it but yet has Air-palm.
Both Naruto and Kono used methods to master/use rasengan , which were based on CC all the same. Learning Rotation is based on some form of CC. I placed Neji's CC above Hinata's because he did wat no other Hyuuga ever could. The real problem i have with ur notion is this code which ur refusing to accept is based on CC..
Mastery of GF = Rotation and Adult Hinata was said to be a Master which leads me to believe she trained until she mastered GF and didn't just randomly decide to ask Hiashi for a code to master the gentle fist..
I know it aids with Chakra control. What i meant was even with Byakugan , no other Hyuuga could replicate the ability on their own.
-Bold..But how can that secret not be related to Chakra control?
Neji learning it himself is proof of this. You do agree that what Neji did to learn it could only have been related to Chakra control right? What else could it possibly be?
Not really. It makes way more sense that Neji and Tenten used this training method gradually over the days to hone his ability until it was perfected.
Kishi used Jonin as a means to show the difficulty of what Neji did. Surely by feats even Hyuuga Jonin failed for generations in coming up with Rotation on their own and dont say they never even tried. We cant ignore the fact that this ability is clearly based around Chakra control. You have yet to explain how this would not be based around CC. Code is not a valid reason.
-It doesn't need to be orally transmitted as Neji proved this , so give a logical reason to how Neji could've figured it out that isn't based in Chakra controlling. This is the reason im against the notion , i cant think of a logical reason that isn't based on Chakra control.
I agree with the first part. But we were given logical reasons in the manga for why Naruto accomplished this and why Minato/Kakashi failed. You have yet to explain nor give a single logical reason for why the method in which Neji used to attain Kaiten wasn't based on CC. He wasn't taught via oral tradition , nor was he guided by like Naruto through his feat , yet even Naruto's method was also based in Chakra control till perfection. What means did Neji that wouldn't be based on his own CC?
-Neven implied the Bold. But it doesn't take away from Kishi's portrayal of what Neji did. He's simply more skilled than every other Hyuuga by far and this was stressed in the manga. Hiruzen's statement that Neji is the greatest Hyuga genius in its history confirms this and doesn't lose weight simply because this showing was against Hinata , same as Naruto. Using that logic one could say weightless Lee w/1st Gate active wouldn't get his chakra-points touched by Neji since Neji did it to Hinata and Naruto who are both tiers slower.
Neji and Hinata operate in the same realm of comparison to compare rate of progress. Neji took 2 months to Master 64 palms+Rotation w/o training. We know that Hiashi trained both which would've started in p1, and we know Neji began teaching her 64 palms somewhere in p2 or before. P2 ran the span of a year so if we compare rate of progress Hinata took 1 year to master 64 palms w/ the exact training. Now we cant gauge exactly how long it would've taken Neji to learn 64 palms by itself with the same level of trainng , but it's obvious he'd take less than 2 months.
We dont know how long it would take the average Adult Hyuga to learn 64 palms with the right training. But CE Neji knowing the means and having the ability to execute 64 palms + Rotation by himself clearly puts his raw skill above every other Hyuga in history , doesn't mean his taijutsu is > say adult branch house members , but his raw skill is clearly>>>>>>>>> and i think i these pages combined makes that very clear.
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Ok. So when did Hiashi start teaching her Rotation? Are u arguing that Hinata learnt it by herself or that she doesn't have it at all?
-Reason for Hiashi not teaching his brother rotation is the same reason their dad didn't.
-Lol Salamander was the one who informed me. Honestly i dont think that notation on the Last was written by Kishi , based on feats she doesn't have it unless Toneri grabbing her wrist and holding it prevented her from using her Chakra but if so they would've said it + if they really wanted to show her Mastery they would've at least shown it. At least we know that the notation written about her mastery in the Boruto series was 100% Kishi....
-So ur basically saying Adult Hinata doesn't have Rotation as she isn't heir nor did she figure it out , while also saying Hanabi at best took a couple years to learn Rotation w/training as Heir.
-Ok it was just a thought.
-Hiashi doesn't need to desperate in order to give his heirs a demonstration of a jutsu which is their birthright. Just like a King passes his sword to his son Rotation is passed as the jutsu in which the Heir would aspire for.
-But how can u ascribe zero difficulty to something that requires Mastery over something of a high level? My stance was always that emitted chakra + control was the difficult part from the start. So im not sure why u keep saying this.
Again. You simply cannot use a puppet mod in this comparison. Look at Sasori's real body for etc. Show me a human using raw chakra to do this. Can Chyo do that with her other arm which isn't modded? No she cannot.
Bold is true , but its clearly wat lead to 64 palms as its the reason Neji was called greatest genius in hyuga history and why Kakashi was sweating at the feat and gave this extra note at the bottom left.
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Clearly adult members would have what it takes to do this. But this clearly wasn't something anyone else in the whole history of the clan was pulling off at Neji's age , hence Hiruzen's statement. After simply seeing this Hiruzen gave him the title of greatest Genius in history which includes memebrs from the head-branch. Clearly hitting Tenketsu mid-combat is a higher level feat than u think.
Never exactly meant they cant be compared. I said a person having one doesn't instantly give him the same difficulty in getting the other since both are based on 2 diffrent things. Some people find Chakra control easier than physical moves and other Hyuga have better talents in different fields like eye-sight. Gai can use leaf hurricane yet would like struggle to use Chakra strings.
-Well at best it took her a year to learn it w/Training as this hints to alot of trial and error.
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Then why do you think Tenten addresses Rotation as Neji's defense? Because thats what it is. 64 Palms is his strongest offense which is why its his true show strength and Rotation was just the beginning. You have to understand that these two techniques make up his overall true show of strength. If Neji showed 64 palms w/o showing Rotation or vice versa , would that be his true show of strength? No because its not his true showing.
-Hiashi simply never expected Neji to have both Rotation (Ultimate defense) + 64 palms (Ultimate Taijutsu) at the same time. His reactions make sense as he would also need to react to the showing of 64 palm. If Neji had showed 64 palms before Rotation Hiashi would've reacted just the same. Hiashi after seeing Rotation followed by 64 palms makes this statement , not 64 palms by itself.
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-If we took the db note at face value then 64 palm would be the only proof of his genius and ntn else. But by looking at Rotation's note we get basically the same thing just diffrent wording. Lets just logically conclude that both are equal proof of his genius. Both are hard to Master w/training and thats simply logical.
Bold isn't a reason for why Neji's method of learning Tenketsu control isn't based on Chakra control as the notion itself doesn't make sense to me. How could a code give him that ability without someone to pass the code in which u think is a requirment? How could it not be related to CC based on its concept?
-Hiashi doesn't need to have better Chakra control in order to have more CC than his brother. Give Hizashi the training and both still have the same. But logically Hiashi can factually control his Chakra in its purest definition.
All i want is for u to give a reason why Neji's attainment of Rotation wasn't due to superior CC skill.
So ur saying this code gives more chakra control but isn't based on CC? Hebi Sasuke can also emit Chakra from his whole body despite not knowing this code.
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Wouldn't u say that he did this due to his CC?
Because emitting Chakra from everywhere and using it for defense is difficult as i keep telling u. It requires GF mastery which u keep underating for some reason. Why is it so hard to accept that Hinata took years to master her art?
-If u want to assume she was given the code thats fine. But u cant assume how long it took for her to learn then Master Rotation.
I put Rotation above 64 palms because of Manga portrayal and actual usefulness. There is a reason its heir exclusive and i see no reason to put 32 palms above it.
-I placed 64 palms above TLF because War arc Hinata had problems with it yet by Pain arc already mastered TLF.
-I placed Wall palm as the hardest simply because Neji doesn't have it but yet has Air-palm.
Both Naruto and Kono used methods to master/use rasengan , which were based on CC all the same. Learning Rotation is based on some form of CC. I placed Neji's CC above Hinata's because he did wat no other Hyuuga ever could. The real problem i have with ur notion is this code which ur refusing to accept is based on CC..
Mastery of GF = Rotation and Adult Hinata was said to be a Master which leads me to believe she trained until she mastered GF and didn't just randomly decide to ask Hiashi for a code to master the gentle fist..
At this point, we're just going back and forth repeating the same points we've been making for close to 4 posts now. Someone not biased might have to come in at this point but i doubt any of the current regular members are.. Including myself lol
However these are my last few points:
-Hiashi doesn't need to desperate in order to give his heirs a demonstration of a jutsu which is their birthright. Just like a King passes his sword to his son Rotation is passed as the jutsu in which the Heir would aspire for.
-But how can u ascribe zero difficulty to something that requires Mastery over something of a high level? My stance was always that emitted chakra + control was the difficult part from the start. So im not sure why u keep saying this.
I just want to tackle this as its relevant to what we're both debating about.
- Hiashi didn't know Hinata won't be heir until the fight. That was when Hinata officially became genin and only a few months had passed between that and the exam.. not even a year and you think instead of teaching the new heir basics he'll start with the more advanced ones? I doubt that. Shadow strangling is also more useful than just Shadow possession and Shika didn't have it until months after the Chuunin exam. Usefulness doesn't change the fact you start with basics.
- That bold is the issue. You had to put "+ control" after emitted because you probably know that at the very least according to that scan, emitting chakra requires no CC. Control only comes in when you want to use that emitted Chakra and that's why Genin can release chakra from two limbs at a time with no difficulty.
Db1,
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and Db4 all point to Hizashi = Hiashi. Both excelled in Taijutsu and CC. But one is privileged to be taught secrets to master new techniques while the other isn't. Does that mean the other would be unable to do them if taught too? No. Logically the one with access to more techs should be > the other with less techs. But the statements clearly don't put that into consideration because if Hizashi was taught, he would know them too.
Take 64 palms for example.. It also has secrets. But because it is taught to the entire main line, they are able to use it. Does that mean their taijutsu is without a doubt > all branch house members? No. Why? Because the branch house members don't know the secrets to executing 64 palms.
I surely won't be able to convince you otherwise if these scans don't tbh.
- Probably not meaningful, but i'll like to point out that 64 palms in the DB has a full page for its description as opposed to Rotation.
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- Neji's entire DB1 profile. I feel if Kishi holds Rotation in the same manner that you do, then it should have at least been highlighted again in his profile like 64 palms.
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Look at the bottom section of this random part of DB1 that explains miscellaneous info with regards to clans.
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This is the translation for both pages read from right to left.
Forbidden Techniques and their Reasons
There are two conditions for a technique to be considered forbidden. The first is when its use endangers the user’s life; the second, when its effect is dangerous for going against the laws of nature. Especially in the second case, a scroll that has a technique considered forbidden is sealed.
First Type Examples: Multiple Shadow Clone, Double Snake Assassination, Reverse Lotus
Second Type Examples: Summoning, Impure World Resurrection
Kekkei Genkai
A special trait related to a blood heritage
These are unique techniques or abilities that depend on genetic factors. A Kekkei Genkai grants various abilities to its heirs, who now have powers far beyond those of common people. When someone with a Kekkei Genkai acquires a ninja technique, its effect may be unbelievable…!
Some Kekkei Genkai…
Up to volume 14, three Kekkei Genkai have been identified, each one with extraordinary abilities and impossible for normal people. Not only that, what was revealed of these powers thus far has only been the tip of the iceberg…
Byakugan (White Eye): Allows for looking through objects and also the chakra pathway system, that is, the vital lines that move the chakra through all the body.
Sharingan (Copy Wheel Eye): Grants the user great awareness, hypnosis and the ability to copy techniques.
?: Haku’s Ice Crystal technique lets him move from one mirror to the next at the speed of light.
The tragic fate of those who have special abilities…
Haku’s clan had extraordinary powers; due to that, they were manipulated by the powerful men of the Land of Water, who used them as weapons of war. The fighting reached such a point that the nation was ruined and the clans bearing Kekkei Genkai were humiliated and accused of bringing death and destruction. To protect themselves, they started hiding their lineage and lived afraid of being found out.
Haku was almost killed by his father due to his lineage…
Clans with special powers in the Hidden Leaf Village…
In the Hidden Leaf Village, the clans bearing Kekkei Genkai live normally, unlike in other countries, where it’s hard to survive without hiding your lineage. In fact, the Leaf Village folk respects and fears the clans that inherited special abilities and considers them elite ninja.
Inheriting your powers also depends on luck
Even if the parents have a Kekkei Genkai, nothing ensures their children will inherit the same power. Not only that, there’s no way to know when or how much power will awaken within oneself. There are no rules for Kekkei Genkai and it depends on luck.
The Sharingan inheritance is rare even among the Uchiha Clan.
The branch line overcame the main line. He learned Hiashi’s technique on his own!
What i feel you're getting wrong is that you think because no other regular Hyuga showed rotation, they can't do it even if they are taught. Which is wrong. One thing is for certain.. Neji's ingenuity > whole hyuga but you can't say Neji's CC > Whole Hyuga without proof that shows other Hyuga would fail even if they are taught.
We can see how the databook praises 64 palms. This isn't taking it at face value but understanding what the author is trying to let us know with the tech. And that is 64 palms is the most superior tech Neji showed in p1. Main house excluding head and heir can't use Rotation yet Neji using it doesn't put him above Main. Main house can use 64 palms but Neji mastering it puts him above Main.
The last statement in the last spoiler proves what i said in my last post. It says technique which means there is no joining of rotation and 64 palms in there.
Really think about it. Rotation involves emitting chakra then controlling. TLF proves Hyuga CC is already above average (2 limbs at a time + Shape manipulation) and having a Byakugan only assists in the learning process. 64 palms on the other hand has nothing that can make mastering it easier. Really think about the steps involved in completing it and you might see why i think it is difficult to master than Rotation.
User: Hyuuga Neji
This is originally a taijutsu that is passed down only in the Hyuuga Main House!! However, being a branch house member, Neji uses his own intuition and natural talents to master the secrets of this Taijutsu!!
Using the Byakugan’s 360 degrees vision and mapping this vision onto a Divination Hexagram Formation. Then the user will launch a series of high speed combo onto opponent that lies within this formation. The attacks are aimed at 64 of the opponent’s chakra points, thus closing these chakra points and stopping the chakra flow of the opponent. Each set of strikes is done at an exponentially increasing pace and strength. The attack not only disables the enemy but also knocks them back with every set of strikes. The victim will not even have the strength to stand up.
Therefore this is a deadly taijutsu that is suitable to be pass down within the Hyuuga line.
At this point, we're just going back and forth repeating the same points we've been making for close to 4 posts now. Someone not biased might have to come in at this point but i doubt any of the current regular members are.. Including myself lol
I just want to tackle this as its relevant to what we're both debating about.
- Hiashi didn't know Hinata won't be heir until the fight. That was when Hinata officially became genin and only a few months had passed between that and the exam.. not even a year and you think instead of teaching the new heir basics he'll start with the more advanced ones? I doubt that. Shadow strangling is also more useful than just Shadow possession and Shika didn't have it until months after the Chuunin exam. Usefulness doesn't change the fact you start with basics.
Jin just think about it. Hiashi showing his heir the Rotation doesn't stop him from starting with the basics.
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A Master can show the end result of his art but still start with basics. Hinata started learning the basics at least from the age of 3. Years upon years for Hiashi to have demonstrated Rotation to his heir. Mastery of Gentle fist gives the ability so it makes sense Hiashi would pass on the secret knowledge to his heirs. After this its then left up to their own growth and CC to learn how to release from their entire body by passing the basics and Mastering Gentle fist.
-Hiashi is the one with the most probability of telling his daughters about Rotation , and why stop at only telling when he can give a live demonstration with explanations on how he does it? Doesn't stop him from running through the basics.
-Hanabi was the new heir at age 7. Hiashi started teaching her the basics even earlier yet even the Last Hanabi didn't show any signs of Rotation, which would've aided against the lone puppet sent for her. Master of Gentle fist = Rotation , Hiashi was teaching his heirs how to master to the Gentle fist starting from the basics. Rotation is heir exclusive. Makes sense that Hanabi would be receiving training for Rotation inbetween p1 , the Last and p3.
It's very logical to assume Hanabi took years to gain the ability as its related to actual Mastery of the art which explains why the anime team made sure to show her using Rotation. Lets say Hinata never even started learning how to use Rotation through the whole manga as ur logic implies. Then are we going to assume she doesn't have it despite Kishi himself noting her mastery as an Adult? No we wont. So why cant i assume it took a couple years for her to learn it? Because you think learning how to use Rotation isn't based on CC?
- That bold is the issue. You had to put "+ control" after emitted because you probably know that at the very least according to that scan, emitting chakra requires no CC. Control only comes in when you want to use that emitted Chakra and that's why Genin can release chakra from two limbs at a time with no difficulty.
Hinata mastering difficult Chakra utilization with her hands only , doesn't prove she is good enough to do the samefrom her whole body. The mere fact that War arc Hinata never had Rotation shows that her chakra control wasn't good enough to learn it despite having TLF. The mere fact that she struggled to use 64 palms shows that pain arc Hinata wasn't good enough to use it despite having TLF.
This post of mine clearly includes control and not only release. But then we have kishimoto saying " A Master of Gentle fist can emit/release chakra from every tenekstu".
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So how can emitting chakra from everywhere require no CC? Manga says normally chakra emitted from Chakra points is "difficult to control" even Jonin can usually only release such chakra from [/B]"a single body part at a time. Hands/feet".
Difficulty is ascribed to utilizing much fewer tenketsu in the hands/feet at a time. So greater difficulty is ascribed to using everyone simultaneously logically. Even for the usual Jonin which translates to elite ninja.
This is directly related to Chakra control bro. My point is that Hinata having the CC for TLF doesn't equate to Rotation. Im gonna edit in the rest of my counters later on so dont reply to this yet.
You are really arguing hinata can use gentle fist or no? She can there are so many statements saying she can. Your inability to agree manga sayings, is leading to this.
Jin just think about it. Hiashi showing his heir the Rotation doesn't stop him from starting with the basics.
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A Master can show the end result of his art but still start with basics. Hinata started learning the basics at least from the age of 3. Years upon years for Hiashi to have demonstrated Rotation to his heir. Mastery of Gentle fist gives the ability so it makes sense Hiashi would pass on the secret knowledge to his heirs. After this its then left up to their own growth and CC to learn how to release from their entire body by passing the basics and Mastering Gentle fist.
-Hiashi is the one with the most probability of telling his daughters about Rotation , and why stop at only telling when he can give a live demonstration with explanations on how he does it? Doesn't stop him from running through the basics.
-Hanabi was the new heir at age 7. Hiashi started teaching her the basics even earlier yet even the Last Hanabi didn't show any signs of Rotation, which would've aided against the lone puppet sent for her. Master of Gentle fist = Rotation , Hiashi was teaching his heirs how to master to the Gentle fist starting from the basics. Rotation is heir exclusive. Makes sense that Hanabi would be receiving training for Rotation inbetween p1 , the Last and p3.
It's very logical to assume Hanabi took years to gain the ability as its related to actual Mastery of the art which explains why the anime team made sure to show her using Rotation. Lets say Hinata never even started learning how to use Rotation through the whole manga as ur logic implies. Then are we going to assume she doesn't have it despite Kishi himself noting her mastery as an Adult? No we wont. So why cant i assume it took a couple years for her to learn it? Because you think learning how to use Rotation isn't based on CC?
We are talking about different things here. The basics i'm referring to are basic techniques for their clans.
- That Ino-Shika-Cho are destined to be together as a team doesn't mean their fathers taught them how to use the Yoyo technique of the war arc way back in part 1 before they became Genin.
- That Kiba uses the animal combo technique doesn't mean he was taught the 3 headed wolf technique before he became Genin. That's why the same way Hiashi thought Hinata was going to succeed him doesn't mean he would teach advanced clan techniques before she became Genin and even more for certain that in the months when Hanabi became heir, he wouldn't just jump to teaching advanced techniques.
I always made it clear wat my stance was from my very first post addressing the OP's thread and heres proof.
This post of mine clearly includes control and not only release. But then we have kishimoto saying " A Master of Gentle fist can emit/release chakra from every tenekstu".
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So how can emitting chakra from everywhere require no CC? Manga says normally chakra emitted from Chakra points is "difficult to control" even Jonin can usually only release such chakra from "a single body part at a time. Hands/feet".
Difficulty is ascribed to utilizing much fewer tenketsu in the hands/feet at a time. So greater difficulty is ascribed to using everyone simultaneously logically. Even for the usual Jonin which translates to elite ninja.
This is directly related to Chakra control bro. My point is that Hinata having the CC for TLF doesn't equate to Rotation. Im gonna edit in the rest of my counters later on so dont reply to this yet.
- What is the difficulty level of controlling chakra outside of the body?
- What is the difficulty level of releasing chakra?
First question can be answered with that Tenten scan but the second cannot. The difficulty level in that scan is above general Jonin level. Genin can release from more than one limb at a time. That proves release and controlling emitted chakra aren't related in terms of difficulty.
Kishi makes a point to note Hinata's talent bloomed after Neji died (Proof is probably supposed to be 64 palms + TLF). So it just doesn't seem plausible to me as to how she will then take so many years to at the very least be able to release from all her points without any plausible reason.
Salamander's scans cannot be legit. Hinata's translation there says she's a direct descendant of the Hyuga clan (like the Hyuga are one long lost ancestor to her or something) while Toneri's says he has Byakugan even though we know he didn't have eyes. So its either bad translation or overall not related as i believe these are the raws of the book that was available for those that went to see the movie.
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Medics in the series need to have incredible Chakra control and that's why there aren't enough medics in the series to fit into all 4 man teams [
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]-[
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]. Shizune was Tsunade's right hand and even she couldn't master Byakugo. She probably knew this at the beginning of trying not after the three years.. Either way that proves you either have the chakra control for a technique or you don't. No amount of years would change that and that's why you can't say Rotation is > 64 palms because Hinata couldn't use it when at the time, she had no right to. Her learning it far later is either proof of her being the heir again or the Hyuga has been completely revamped. I'll go with the latter since Hanabi can use it too.
Rotation is ranked Hiden (Secret techniques). It is taught (Just like its db description says) and members of the particular clan can use it if taught but we know in this case, the secret is kept between Head and heir. That Neji coud use it is again more testament to his ingenuity than his CC being > the rest of the Hyuga clan after only just leaving the academy a year prior.
Salamander's scans cannot be legit. Hinata's translation there says she's a direct descendant of the Hyuga clan (like the Hyuga are one long lost ancestor to her or something) while Toneri's says he has Byakugan even though we know he didn't have eyes. So its either bad translation or overall not related as i believe these are the raws of the book that was available for those that went to see the movie.
We are talking about different things here. The basics i'm referring to are basic techniques for their clans.
- That Ino-Shika-Cho are destined to be together as a team doesn't mean their fathers taught them how to use the Yoyo technique of the war arc way back in part 1 before they became Genin.
- That Kiba uses the animal combo technique doesn't mean he was taught the 3 headed wolf technique before he became Genin. That's why the same way Hiashi thought Hinata was going to succeed him doesn't mean he would teach advanced clan techniques before she became Genin and even more for certain that in the months when Hanabi became heir, he wouldn't just jump to teaching advanced techniques.
What basic techs would Hiashi be teaching her for the clan? We would assume that those basics took years right? Since never had them.
With Ino-Shika-Cho we can determine that the reason they never had the higher leveled jutsu is due to their own growth needing to reach a certain level before they could go on to higher level techs.
-Kiba using fang over fang doesn't mean he was instantly capable of 3 headed wolf until his own growth matured for him to be able to with more training. We cant assume that they could've learnt those techs but were simply nerfed by their parents.
When i say Hiashi could've demonstrated Rotation i didn't mean fully teach it to his heirs with them learning at one time. I meant that he could simply tell them the secrets on how he does it through the years of teaching while showing them live. If u need to master the gentle fist to use Rotation , then it makes sense for it to take years before one can do it.
For instance , would u argue that Hiashi for 12 years didn't try teaching Hinata anything other than basic open palmed taijutsu? Or would we simply assume that he tried but Hinata just wasn't at the needed level to learn anything at that time? Why cant we simply assume that for Hinata to have learnt advanced techs she needed to become more advanced herself beforehand.
- What is the difficulty level of controlling chakra outside of the body?
- What is the difficulty level of releasing chakra?
First question can be answered with that Tenten scan but the second cannot. The difficulty level in that scan is above general Jonin level. Genin can release from more than one limb at a time. That proves release and controlling emitted chakra aren't related in terms of difficulty.
Kishi makes a point to note Hinata's talent bloomed after Neji died (Proof is probably supposed to be 64 palms + TLF). So it just doesn't seem plausible to me as to how she will then take so many years to at the very least be able to release from all her points without any plausible reason.
Salamander's scans cannot be legit. Hinata's translation there says she's a direct descendant of the Hyuga clan (like the Hyuga are one long lost ancestor to her or something) while Toneri's says he has Byakugan even though we know he didn't have eyes. So its either bad translation or overall not related as i believe these are the raws of the book that was available for those that went to see the movie.
You must be registered for see links
Medics in the series need to have incredible Chakra control and that's why there aren't enough medics in the series to fit into all 4 man teams [
You must be registered for see links
]-[
You must be registered for see links
]. Shizune was Tsunade's right hand and even she couldn't master Byakugo. She probably knew this at the beginning of trying not after the three years.. Either way that proves you either have the chakra control for a technique or you don't. No amount of years would change that and that's why you can't say Rotation is > 64 palms because Hinata couldn't use it when at the time, she had no right to. Her learning it far later is either proof of her being the heir again or the Hyuga has been completely revamped. I'll go with the latter since Hanabi can use it too.
Rotation is ranked Hiden (Secret techniques). It is taught (Just like its db description says) and members of the particular clan can use it if taught but we know in this case, the secret is kept between Head and heir. That Neji coud use it is again more testament to his ingenuity than his CC being > the rest of the Hyuga clan after only just leaving the academy a year prior.
But how can it be incorrect? The Manga says Jonin can usually only utilize Chakra from the hands and feet. This is why Sakura was shocked that Sasuke was able to emit Chidori from his entire body. The manga says for a Hyuga , only a master of Gentle fist can emit Chakra from his entire body. This shows that simply releasing Chakra from an number of Tenketsu requires difficulty which is related to full Mastery of the gentle fist. The control of that Chakra itself is another thing all togther/
Kishi makes a point to tell us Hinata bloomed after the War. Yet even the Last Hinata didn't show signs of the ability. Hinata simply got better at Chakra control over the years until she could use Rotation just like Hanabi. Why wouldn't Chakra control increase over the years? Hanabi had heir rights yet i can assume it took her years reach the level where she could use Kaiten hence why she didn't have it in the Last. I dont want to assume the Last Hanabi could've learnt Rotation if Hiashi simply decided to tell her how to emit Chakra.
Like-wise i can assume Hanabi took years to master 64 palms by first passing 4 palms then making her way up until she could complete it just like Hinata. How would one go about teaching someone how to use Rotation if not teach them how to control theri chakra.
Rotation is an ability that requires the user to have full control over their tenketsu Chakra. It requires having the ability to both release chakra from every node , and controlling that Chakra for utlization. I fail to see how the training for this wouldn't be related to Chakra control and how Neji learning it isn't a testament to his CC genius just like his praise from Hiruzen makes him the most skilled Hyuga in Taijutsu.
We can assume that to learn 64 palms one would first need to be taught the movements and steps right? What do u think is incorporated into the training for Rotation?
