Hijab

[Ririchiyo Sama]

Besides it looks so beautiful.

 

[Avani]

You edited that post at 3:27 my time.

I did reply at 3:26.

I never saw that second part. I only saw you telling me not to reply.

So I guess this was all a misunderstanding. Accusing me of lying is a bit too much.




I know several fallacies in latin. I'm studying law, remember?

I'm not making any arguments? Lol.


Sigh...I never denied that some people may use it for oppression. But you sounded to generalize here:

"But aren't you setting up yourself as an object that needs to be hidden that badly and suggesting anything less is immodest and asking for trouble?"

That's what I tried to address. It's not any more of an objectification than men's dress code.

In theory.

Of course practices may differ. Sadly.


Which first reply? Your first reply that I answered, is up there. After that, again, I didn't see your editing your post. Don't expect me to always re-read your earlier posts...This is the reason why I only quoted that part. I simply didn't see your later edition. But even that doesn't excuse your outburst against me, that I shouldn't reply.



That first sentence actually goes for you. Civilization is not a term to be reduced to a beach or a religion. By your logic, I was wrong because people are naked at home, when taking shower or when having ***...etc. You think I don't know about that? Really, you're making up stupid assumptions. Despite I asked you to stop doing it. Why can't we ever have a discussion without you making claims about my reading comprehension, my knowledge, my whatever?


Only muslim women shall wear the hijab. I never said it's to be forced on non muslims. Actually, islam doesn't say that either.

'There is no compulsion in religion'- Quran 2:256


I said 'shut up, basically'. The word 'basically' was intended to serve as an inicator of some kind of a metaphor being used here. I never said you told me to shut up. But you told me not to reply- it's trying to shutme up, in essence, at least partially.

It's you who didn't like my reply. You didn't like the part about that muslims should dress differently. Anyway, it's quite hypocritical that you expect me not to reply- but you keep replying and making insults. It seems to me you still can't get over the past. See, you always get sensitive over this 'muslims do this and that bad ' thing. You only focus on some muslims using the hijab as a form of oppression, which I never denied anyway. But don't generalize.


I think you're trying to project your perception on me. It's not like you're gonna deceive anyone by semantics.

I posted an article, using quotes from teh Quran, the Sunnah, and scholars. You told me not to reply because I wouldn't like your response. You also told me not to link you sites for more info- which is ignoarance at best. You admtit you don't care about more info...that is, you don't care for arguments. So, you're running on emotions, as earlier.




You said this as well:

"But aren't you setting up yourself as an object that needs to be hidden that badly and suggesting anything less is immodest and asking for trouble?"


Now it's you who doesn't read my posts properly. In my very first response to you, after quoteing that site, I added that whether males respect females or not, is not necessarily a question of women wearign the hijab or not. A gilr in hijab can be raped just as well a girl who doesn't wear it. That's all.




Eh? That post of mien to which you made this reply, as not even addressed to you but Kratos...I even quoted him.

_______
And seriously, let's clear this up. I have no intentions of goign through the same thing as last time.

So let's sum it up.

I answerd to your question:

"But aren't you setting up yourself as an object that needs to be hidden that badly and suggesting anything less is immodest and asking for trouble?"

That's all. To this, you made a reply telling me that I shouldn't talk to you. You could have just ignored my post, but no, you had to tell me that. It's not like you disagreed with anything I said, you just didn't like one ruling from that article.

AFTER my reply, you edited yours...which I didn't see, until now as you've called my attention so 'kindly' that even a 5 yrs old would be proud to have such a refined vocabulary of selected insults.

But alright. No problem.

Let's say there was a misunderstanding.

In the end, do we differ on anything?

You say some people use it as a form of oppression. Sure, I never denied it. Just don't generalize. You didn't? Fine, then maybe there is really smtg wrong with my eyesight.

The post I told you to read was the first one.

I edited my post to fix minor spelling errors/grammar- just a quirk - I once edited my two year old post just for a spelling mistake because once I notice it - it starts bothering me. Or at times for detailed explanation of something. But I was very clear and I repeatedly told you that you were reading it wrong.

The names of fallacies are not exactly covered in law classes. At least I didn't have to read them , not in Latin anyway. I read it however in language. And you were the one giving emotional response instead of logical while i gave a clear factual statement and explained- even quoted a an actual case. So Ad Hominem fits your own posts. Or should I say Affirming the consequent?

Premise: Ducks are birds.
Premise: Ducks swim in the water.
Premise: Chickens are birds.
False Conclusion: Chickens swim in the water.

But that's how you deducted it.

That was a question from one woman to another- neither of whom have to wear it but can talk about what's objectifying- she is not even a Muslim nor it was connected to rest of my post. She made a statement- I teased her on it jokingly. I don't care about your opinion on that regard even one bit. That was for the OP alone. I am not going to argue what objectifying is with NB men. In my experience most of them want to live in denial in this regard.

 

[BLAZE]

The government exists to line its pockets.
No thanks.

and like you are Gonna be Some Unbiased Good Guy huh :sdo: Talks about taking other people freedom and giving them orders

Your dream to become Kim Jong-un part 2 can rest in gutter becoz most of us will choose The government that exists to line its pockets[despite calling out on it 24/7] over you

 

[Hexuze]

People like to associate it with terrorism which is stupid. Ignore those idiots & thankfully I haven't seen this issue personally. You shouldn't worry so some much about it either.

 

[Babadook]

The post I told you to read was the first one.

I edited my post to fix minor spelling errors/grammar- just a quirk - I once edited my two year old post just for a spelling mistake because once I notice it - it starts bothering me. Or at times for detailed explanation of something. But I was very clear and I repeatedly told you that you were reading it wrong.

The names of fallacies are not exactly covered in law classes. At least I didn't have to read them , not in Latin anyway. I read it however in language. And you were the one giving emotional response instead of logical while i gave a clear statement and explained. So Ad Hominem fits your own posts.

That was a question from one woman to another- neither of whom have to wear it but can talk about what's objectifying- she is not even a Muslim nor it was connected to rest of my post. I don't care about your opinion on that regard even one bit. That was for the OP alone. I am not going to argue what objectifying is with NB men. In my experience they want to live in denial in this regard.

I only saw this:

Spoiler

I suggest Mr Bakame that you do not jump in to reply my posts especially when they are not addressed to you. And no do not bother linking me any site for more info either. For you are not going to like my replies. Especially when you make quotes like above " haram to dress like Kuffar"... I will let you know, whatever the intent, it doesn't translate as a nice or respectful gesture towards non-Muslims. That word comes with a lot of negative connotation towards them and matching sentiments don't help, since respect is often two way street.

But alright, I believe you. I doN't have a reason not to, and it's not like I can prove you did add more parts, however, I do quote posts as a whole, and that's all I could quote here:

You must be registered for see links

It's not becasue I was trying to ignore your points or derail the topic.

But now that I've seen the rest:

Burqua does stand out in non Islamic countries you know- Not that I have any problem or objection to it personally as long as I am not asked to follow it. I don't mind it at all...Still some may wish to use because of personal cultural conditioning and some may resent it despite wearing it because of the same conditioning otherwise. Would you like some Ismat Chughtai for you:

"On the way to her brother’s wedding, she manages to “lose” the cap of her burqa. Showered with blows when the others suspect her of having lost it intentionally, Ismat writes that she accepted the blows “as though they were sweet laddoos.”

I don't think men get beaten up or looked down for wearing trousers and jeans like other non Muslims or for not covering their head. And that's why it's called oppression for women by some others.

Boy, you do have a knack for rushing to post stuff which boomerangs at you.

You made this in response to islamqa saying that men shall not wear garments of vanity and fame. Again, that article was about ruling on men's dress code. I guess you didn't open the link...It even says:

"...stands out from others so that people will look at the wearer and he will become known for it. "

So, your reply about women, to a ruling that is for men...is quite pointless. :| You've mistaken 'he' for 'she', gurl.

Of course women can adore themselves with jewelry, even gold or silk- that is forbidden for men.

But alright, I won't quote articles to you anymore, after all you don't care about more info *shrug*

And alright, you could have just told me in the beginning that the reason you don't want to discuss it with me is because it was addressed to OP.

Anyway, here we do have to study roman law and so we did learn latin for a year.

That's all.

Let's just say it was all a misuderstanding and to avoid it in the future, I won't reply to you...But I really like you though, despite our differences wease:

 

[CrimsonReaper]

Except no one is truly free.

nothing is perfect, but okay it's hard for someone like you to contemplate what i'm trying to say.

 

[Lord Tywin]

*****, I'm an assassin. Nothing is true. Everything is permitted.

 

[SasukeTheEmo]

and like you are Gonna be Some Unbiased Good Guy huh :sdo: Talks about taking other people freedom and giving them orders

Your dream to become Kim Jong-un part 2 can rest in gutter becoz most of us will choose The government that exists to line its pockets[despite calling out on it 24/7] over you

Have fun being a zionist puppet.

 

[BLAZE]

Have fun being a zionist puppet.

if that helps you sleep at night

You must be registered for see images

 

[SasukeTheEmo]

if that helps you sleep at night

You must be registered for see images

The truth.
And that's the bottom line.

 

[Ansatsuken]

Have fun being a zionist puppet.

He is Blazing Storm and not Zionist puppet. He can Ameno the Zionist before they can think

 

[BLAZE]

The truth.
And that's the bottom line.

i wonder while i was born in a Hindu family.I do visit Temples\,Mosques,Gurudwara's and Churches but i have yet to meet a single Jewish person irl i became a Zionist Puppet becoz i don't agree with this guy's wet dream of becoming Kim Jong-un part 2 :sdo:

Damn Low Brain Cells for sure :lol

 

[SasukeTheEmo]

i wonder while i was born in a Hindu family.I do visit Temples\,Mosques,Gurudwara's and Churches but i have yet to meet a single Jewish person irl i became a Zionist Puppet becoz i don't agree with this guy's wet dream of becoming Kim Jong-un part 2 :sdo:

Damn Low Brain Cells for sure :lol

Yes because allowing individual nations and races to duke it out until eventual implosion, is better than uniting everyone under a dictatorship amirite?

 

[BLAZE]

Yes because allowing individual nations and races to duke it out until eventual implosion, is better than uniting everyone under a dictatorship amirite?

Yeah and then start murdering people like cattles in slaughterhouse amirite :lol

You must be registered for see images

>crying over the truth

You must be a dalit.

Sadly for you i am Kayastha :lol

 

[SasukeTheEmo]

Yeah and then start murdering people like cattles in slaughterhouse amirite :lol

You must be registered for see images

Sadly for you i am Kayastha :lol

Obviously you don't kill anyone. Duh.

 

[SasukeTheEmo]

This thread went from Hijab to a Deism believer that want to persuade and unite NB members under his umbrella in the name of freedom

What freedom?

How free do you think you really are?

 

[Ansatsuken]

What freedom?

How free do you think you really are?

Free enough to do anything and go anywhere and the most important is not against the law. Sure you will get a problem if you're against the law.

Its enough for me.

 

[SasukeTheEmo]

Free enough to do anything and go anywhere and the most important is not against the law. Sure you will get a problem if you're against the law.

Its enough for me.

"No one is truly free, they are a slave to wealth, fortune, the law, or other people restraining them from acting according to their will."
Euripides

 

[Avani]

I only saw this

I am referring to my first post-

Spoiler

But aren't you setting up yourself as an object that needs to be hidden that badly and suggesting anything less is immodest and asking for trouble?

Anyway..
It is totally up to the person herself to choose how she wants to be dressed up. But I doubt using Burqa itself suggest modesty or wearing short automatically makes one any less just for that. And there lies the problem- in your own statement how easily you suggested that the one with with less clothing is not graceful enough.

It's just custom and I have seen a lot of burka clad women who use it only when people they know are around. Once the train leaves the station and they have waved their hands in good buy to "dear hubby/father/relative", the burka is folded and gets in suitcase. True story. So it's not always the choice of the person wearing it but family/relative's pressure.

And problem arise that people start comparing and suggest that not wearing a burqa or dressed nearly as much is asking for trouble.

A lot depends on how one carries oneself and of course proper balance. Extreme lack of clothes or over covering both stand out and may not be comfortable enough in a given situation.

Too short a skirt will make you flash and a burka which has 3 layers of hijab along with it dims the vision vision an makes one almost blind or simply too uncomfortable in certain weather. And it certainly a hindrance at times when one needs more free movements.

It wasn't edited after you replied to it.

Spoiler

I suggest Mr Bakame that you do not jump in to reply my posts especially when they are not addressed to you. And no do not bother linking me any site for more info either. For you are not going to like my replies. Especially when you make quotes like above " haram to dress like Kuffar"... I will let you know, whatever the intent, it doesn't translate as a nice or respectful gesture towards non-Muslims. That word comes with a lot of negative connotation towards them and matching sentiments don't help, since respect is often two way street.

But alright, I believe you. I doN't have a reason not to, and it's not like I can prove you did add more parts, however, I do quote posts as a whole, and that's all I could quote here:

You must be registered for see links

I only added the last line and your last para to it at the time. Rest you missed somehow. Either way that's still not the first post I was referring to. I quoted it now for your ease.

It's not becasue I was trying to ignore your points or derail the topic.

But now that I've seen the rest:

You made this in response to islamqa saying that men shall not wear garments of vanity and fame. Again, that article was about ruling on men's dress code. I guess you didn't open the link...It even says:

"...stands out from others so that people will look at the wearer and he will become known for it. "

So, your reply about women, to a ruling that is for men...is quite pointless. :| You've mistaken 'he' for 'she', gurl.

Maybe but as a lawyer do you really think it was something to be mentioned again? Either you are saying the religious rules of dress are thus applicable on women only and men can avoid following it to avoid looking out of place or it fits both. Neither improve give strength to your cause. Don't they teach you in law school to not draw attention to points which do not help your case and only give extra fuel to opposition if they wish to use it?

Of course women can adore themselves with jewelry, even gold or silk- that is forbidden for men.

And then cover it burka so it's not visible anyway. -_^

But alright, I won't quote articles to you anymore, after all you don't care about more info *shrug*

You provide info that can be used against you. By all means keep it up.

And alright, you could have just told me in the beginning that the reason you don't want to discuss it with me is because it was addressed to OP.

............d If you paid attention my whole post was a reply to her statement only.

Anyway, here we do have to study roman law and so we did learn latin for a year.

Studying Persian/Urdu is more useful here for a lot of older documents from medieval period are in Persian only. I never finished that course though, I should. Maybe I will pick it up again.

That's all

Let's just say it was all a misuderstanding and to avoid it in the future, I won't reply to you...But I really like you though, despite our differences wease:

I am not trying to be mean but to be honest I don't believe you. Not that I make an issue of forum arguments if people talk to me normally so it works out either way.

 

[Babadook]

I am referring to my first post-
It wasn't edited after you replied to it.

I was talking about this one:

You must be registered for see links

The one in which you told me not to reply :| And it was edited.

I only added the last line and your last para to it at the time. Rest you missed somehow. Either way that's still not the first post I was referring to. I quoted it now for your ease.

Okkayyy I missed it for some mysterious reasons.

Maybe but as a lawyer do you really think it was something to be mentioned again? Either you are saying the religious rules of dress are thus applicable on women only and men can avoid following it to avoid looking out of place or it fits both. Neither improve give strength to your cause. Don't they teach you in law school to not draw attention to points which do not help your case and only give extra fuel to opposition if they wish to use it?

Ah, again making references to what I am and whatnot...

You're actually being ignorant to the fact that different rulings go for men and women in islam regarding the topic of dress code we're discussing.

Women with a burqa or hijab do stand out from men, so I don't even know what you're trying to prove here.

On the other hand, men should grow a beard, f.e. That makes them pretty easy to distinguish from women. (And don't try to bring up that tranny singer :|)

So, men and women can be distinguihsed from each other. Thus, even if you apply the ruling on not to be too vain, on both men and women, being vain is different in men's and in women's case, as their dress codes are different in the first place. So, it's actually your point that is moot, not mine.

And then cover it burka so it's not visible anyway. -_^

How so? Are you suggesting that a bracelet can't be seen on one's hand? And anyway, the thread is about hijab in case you haven't noticed so far, and hijab does allow some jewelry to be seen, but even so, even in the strictest interpretations, women can show jewelry to relatives, and can wear them in family events. While men can't wear such jewelry. So my point still stands.

You provide info that can be used against you. By all means keep it up.

How so? You still haven't explained how is it bad that muslims should dress differently from non muslims?

You still haven't refuted my reasoning that if women are oppressed by their specific dress code, then muslim men are also oppressed by their prescribed dress code.

So again, what is this info that you used against me?

............d If you paid attention my whole post was a reply to her statement only.

Okay, I didn't know I can't join teh discussion. Next time vm or pm her if you want only her to know...

Studying Persian/Urdu is more useful here for a lot of older documents from medieval period are in Persian only. I never finished that course though, I should. Maybe I will pick it up again.

Well ofc that makes sense, though I guess british law did affect indian law, and well, the british law was affected by roman law, and so was international law. But that's far fetched.

I am not trying to be mean but to be honest I don't believe you. Not that I make an issue of forum arguments if people talk to me normally so it works out either way.

Nah, I like people who stand up for their rights and women's rights...but no need to be so arrogant about it, and guess what, even if I had a crappy reading comprehension and even if I misread your posts, well we all make mistakes and you could get the point through without making references all the time about my abilities. Especially that, again, I really didn't think you'd mind me answering to your post to OP, considering how you interfered last time with my debate with Aim64c...besides, I really didn't see the rest of your post after telling me not to reply to you.

Also, you seem to be fixated on 'winning' this. This is not a court, and it doesn't matter what I study. I could be a chimney sweeper, that's just not a valid argument. (Now you may ask why then, I bring up you being a mod...well simply because I think that a mod should be someone to look up to...someone who can stay objective and respectful because having an important position means more responsibility. )

But really, you don't have to believe me. I just think you're a nicer person in real life than in our debates :|