Hebi Sasuke vs. War Arc Kakashi

[Dantee]

Just wanted to say if there was struggle between control over Manda with sharigan genjutsu, Kakashi certainly wouldn't win.

 

[Curse Mark]

Which changes literally nothing the man said.

You don't think intent to kill would change that scenario at all?

 

[KidGamer65]

You don't think intent to kill would change that scenario at all?

The intent to kill isn't going to make his punch harder nor would punching as hard as he can kill Sasuke. So no, it wouldn't matter. Not to mention Kakashi went to the bridge to kill Sasuke (as he stated when he stopped Sasuke from killing Sakura the first time) so this doesn't even matter.

 

[blazekev90]

Manda is still a factor. We lack feats of how proficient Kakashi's genjutsu is to begin with. Also, with given intel, Manda can shield his vision for ocular genjutsu.

Secondly, utilizing smaller snakes in close combat, given Sasuke by far.

I don't see Kakshi winning whatsoever.

 

[BLAZE]

Kakashi didnt intend to kill him in that moment.

how does that matter.A punch wouldn't have killed sasuke

 

[Bogard]

-Databook says otherwise. So I'm not sure why you people keep claiming he's physically stronger than Base Sasuke let alone Curse Seal Sasuke. Naruto can send Base Sasuke flying meters away with a punch yet they were shown to be physically equal with each other, so this comparison doesn't even make sense. How far Sasuke goes when hit has nothing to do with his physical strength. The only major factors are Kakashi's strength and Sasuke's weight. That whole grip thing also makes zero sense when Sasuke's grip isn't positioned in a way that'd let him hold his opponent as well as Kakashi could.

How does databook says otherwise when last time i checked in the databook related to that part of the manga, Kakashi had 4.5 in strength when Sasuke had 3?

-What? Are you really using Kakashi being unable to blindside a near blind and exhausted Sasuke as evidence that Kakashi is superior to a healthy Sasuke w/ the Curse Mark? They didn't even engage in close combat outside of the anime, where Kakashi was being matched by Sasuke w/o Sharingan, with shit vision and exhausted.

Not sure what you're referring to, but i was talking about this:

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Kakashi won the close quarter exchange relatively easily
Not to mention, Kakashi was going tango with Itachi, someone who outclassed Sasuke in close quarter

-Uh, no. There's no feat that puts Kakashi's Raikiri above Sasuke's Chidori, at least to the point where the Curse Mark boost wouldn't push his Raikiri far above.

This is what a gaiden Kakashi could do with his chidori:

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And he could reinforce the nature transformation to raikiri later
Sasuke's chidori has been matched by Naruto's tiny rasengan on the bridge when Kakashi's raikiri has been visibly compared to Minato's odama rasengan:

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Not to mention that Kakashi's raikiri has always been the reference during that part of the manga(either by Deidara or Raikage) and the databook classify raikiri as S-rank when Sasuke's chidori is A-rank

-Doesn't matter as it doesn't let him beat Sasuke. Same goes for support Ninjutsu and clones.

How so? He could fall for the same trick Itachi fell too in the rescue Gaara arc and Itachi is smarter than Sasuke

-Lol do you even know what a town busting attack is? Deva's regular Shinra Tensei is nowhere near town busting.

Yes i do know what town busting is. Multi Blocks form a town and Shinra tensei had that level of power destroying everything around him:

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Not to mention ST does no real damage if you don't collide with something afterwards.

Oh really?
These guys:

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Ended like this:

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Hinata was KO'd in a single hit without obstacle:

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Not to mention ST is the same thing that left Kakashi buried under a bunch of rubble almost incapacitated, so where is "tanked" coming from?

Tanked 1 Shinra tensei:

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Tanked another shinra tensei(that finished Akimichi):

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Any version of CS Sasuke is more durable than Kakashi, CS2 being far more durable unless you think Kakashi can survive a direct hit from C2.

I'm pretty sure he can survive it. He'd be injured, but he'd survive. It doesn't have a lot of energy power. It just has great area of effect making it seems like it's extremely powerful when it's not the case. It barely created a crater in the center explosion where Sasuke blocked with his wing

 

[KidGamer65]

How does databook says otherwise when last time i checked in the databook related to that part of the manga, Kakashi had 4.5 in strength when Sasuke had 3?

?

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They both have 3.5. Sasuke has CS on top of that.

Not sure what you're referring to, but i was talking about this:

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Kakashi won the close quarter exchange relatively easily
Not to mention, Kakashi was going tango with Itachi, someone who outclassed Sasuke in close quarter

Thought you were referring to when he punched him in the scan someone else posted, either way the same point stands. That's a Sasuke who was exhausted and didn't have Sharingan on. Outclassing that Sasuke is irrelevant and I shouldn't have to explain why.

This is what a gaiden Kakashi could do with his chidori:

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And he could reinforce the nature transformation to raikiri later
Sasuke's chidori has been matched by Naruto's tiny rasengan on the bridge when Kakashi's raikiri has been visibly compared to Minato's odama rasengan:

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Not to mention that Kakashi's raikiri has always been the reference during that part of the manga(either by Deidara or Raikage) and the databook classify raikiri as S-rank when Sasuke's chidori is A-rank

What you are showing is nothing but a bunch of dust being kicked up.

-PTS Sasuke can put giant holes in boulders with Chidori.
-CS2 Sasuke can match Naruto's KN1 Rasengan.
-Post Time Skip Sasuke>>>Pre Time Skip Sasuke.

PTS Sasuke w/o Curse Mark has far better feats with Chidori than Kid Kakashi does anyway so I'm not sure what you are getting at. Minato's Rasengan being held next to Kakashi's Rasengan is irrelevant. Yasaka Magatama, BD and FRS were all shown together in the same way, yet BD>>FRS>>YM. Rank has nothing to do with power, only the difficulty in performing the jutsu. The main thing that matters with the power is the power of the user. Nothing Kakashi has done with Raikiri justifies it being stronger than Chidori with a boost that pushed Base Chidori to a level where it matches KN1 Chidori. Nothing at all.

And Deidara calling Chidori Raikiri doesn't help your point. It only helps mine. That there is no major difference.

How so? He could fall for the same trick Itachi fell too in the rescue Gaara arc and Itachi is smarter than Sasuke

30% Itachi. He'd be able to grab Sasuke, but he's not going to restrain him once the Curse Mark activates.

Yes i do know what town busting is. Multi Blocks form a town and Shinra tensei had that level of power destroying everything around him:

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Destroying a house or two isn't destroying a block let alone a town.

Oh really?
These guys:

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Ended like this:

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Hinata was KO'd in a single hit without obstacle:

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Not sure what you are showing, but they are uninjured in those scans, and Hinata clearly hit the ground.

Tanked 1 Shinra tensei:

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Tanked another shinra tensei(that finished Akimichi):

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I'm pretty sure he can survive it. He'd be injured, but he'd survive. It doesn't have a lot of energy power. It just has great area of effect making it seems like it's extremely powerful when it's not the case. It barely created a crater in the center explosion where Sasuke blocked with his wing

-And he went flying up in the air, thus no damage received, just like everyone else who has taken ST and simply gone flying through the air.

-http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/423/15/

That's not tanked first of all. Second of all what are Choza's durability feats without actually increasing his size? None that'd make him super durable. Choji himself got up and managed to get away regardless. Not a feat. And no, if he takes C2 head on he gets blown to bits. Not sure how anyone could argue otherwise when it blew Sasuke's wing to nothing, the same wing that tanked Naruto's physical attacks at Valley of the End, the same wing but stronger. Unless you are going to argue that KN1 can hit Kakashi directly and do nothing, it's clear who's more durable.

 

[Bogard]

?

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They both have 3.5. Sasuke has CS on top of that.

Ok never mind this. It's been a while since i looked this

Thought you were referring to when he punched him in the scan someone else posted, either way the same point stands. That's a Sasuke who was exhausted and didn't have Sharingan on. Outclassing that Sasuke is irrelevant and I shouldn't have to explain why.

Sasuke not having sharingan on is irrelevant considering Kakashi didn't have his own on either and he unlike Sasuke, his left eye is covered to boot. I'm also not buying that Sasuke's physical state impacted as much as you're saying. Besides you didn't counter my other point where i said that Kakashi was going tango with Itachi someone who outclassed Sasuke in close quarter

What you are showing is nothing but a bunch of dust being kicked up.

Dust? He totally destroyed the tree while on the run here without even slowing down as if it didn't existed:

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-PTS Sasuke can put giant holes in boulders with Chidori.

Creating a hole in a boulder isn't even comparable to this:

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Let alone what adult Kakashi can do

-CS2 Sasuke can match Naruto's KN1 Rasengan.

Agreed but how do you know Kakashi couldn't do this?

-Post Time Skip Sasuke>>>Pre Time Skip Sasuke.

How do you know Post-timeskip Sasuke's chidori is stronger? Because he physically became stronger doesn't prove his chidori ninjutsu lethality became more powerful

Minato's Rasengan being held next to Kakashi's Rasengan is irrelevant. Yasaka Magatama, BD and FRS were all shown together in the same way, yet BD>>FRS>>YM.

Ok

Rank has nothing to do with power, only the difficulty in performing the jutsu. The main thing that matters with the power is the power of the user. Nothing Kakashi has done with Raikiri justifies it being stronger than Chidori with a boost that pushed Base Chidori to a level where it matches KN1 Chidori. Nothing at all.

There is a reason why similar jutsus are classified with different level of difficulty to master. That means that the level of nature transformation in the raikiri is higher and if it's higher, it implies superiority. Not to mention if i remember in the databook, it says that Raikiri can cut anything, something that doesn't say with chidori(it only says that it can destroy boulders) suggesting that the level of hype behind the raikiri is higher

30% Itachi. He'd be able to grab Sasuke, but he's not going to restrain him once the Curse Mark activates.

Only in chakra. His physical strength didn't change. He doesn't need to maintain him for long anyway. The clone can paralyse him with raiton(especially if it's destroyed), the clone can have explosives on him, the clone can be used as a distraction til the time the original finishes Sasuke from behind with a raikiri

Destroying a house or two isn't destroying a block let alone a town.

Look at this scan again. It destroyed the entire environmnent leaving only the debris where Kakashi is:

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It has also been rated to be: 1.64 - 1.9 kilotons (Naruto)
When Deidara's C2 has been calculated to be 1.2 kilotons (Naruto)
You can see it here by going through it(long though)

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Not sure what you are showing, but they are injured in those scans, and Hinata clearly hit the ground.

They are KO'd not injured. Look at the middle left scan again:

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Not sure why you think it doesn't damage. Everytime it was used the opponent was feeling hurt("ugh" Argghhh"):

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It does damage the victim. The pressure is that powerful. Do you really think that ground is what is responsible in KO'ing all those guys when Naruto characters survived worst? How does it destroy ninjutsus if it doesn't do damage? How does it destroy the environment if it doesn't do damage? How does it disperse physical and tangible clones if it doesn't do damage:

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How does the shock destroy a forest:

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Doesn't even make sense

-And he went flying up in the air, thus no damage received, just like everyone else who has taken ST and simply gone flying through the air.

Not only that logic is farfetched(considering he was sent flying to obviously fall on ground too), but see above. Shinra tensei does do damage

That's not tanked first of all. Second of all what are Choza's durability feats without actually increasing his size? None that'd make him super durable. Choji himself got up and managed to get away regardless. Not a feat.

Choji survived because he got protected by Choza(said it himself). And i don't think we don't really need feats from the leader of the physical strongest in entire Konoha. About C2, see above, the regular Shinra tensei is stronger

 

[Deadlift]

Bold: Kakashi has better reflexes than Zabuza by a long gap. Zabuza only kept up because their abilities kind of countered eachother. Kakashi couldn't use his sharingan properly, but it's pre-cog was enough to let him react to Zabuza's surprise attacks

Nah, I mean when they came to a close fight in their very first encounter, Zabuza overwhelmed Kakashi in hand to hand combat, Sasuke also noticed it

 

[Curse Mark]

The intent to kill isn't going to make his punch harder nor would punching as hard as he can kill Sasuke. So no, it wouldn't matter. Not to mention Kakashi went to the bridge to kill Sasuke (as he stated when he stopped Sasuke from killing Sakura the first time) so this doesn't even matter.

I see what you're saying but I'm gonna have to agree to disagree. I think with intent to kill his taijutsu would be more serious. Also didn't he tell Naruto and Sakura to leave so that he could take him on? If he didn't want to kill him in front of the kids then he didn't have intent to kill in that moment.

 

[KidGamer65]

Sasuke not having sharingan on is irrelevant considering Kakashi didn't have his own on either and he unlike Sasuke, his left eye is covered to boot. I'm also not buying that Sasuke's physical state impacted as much as you're saying. Besides you didn't counter my other point where i said that Kakashi was going tango with Itachi someone who outclassed Sasuke in close quarter

What you buy doesn't matter. Sasuke only got seconds of healing time from Karin afterwards. Don't argue she put him back to full capacity when last time she did that all the bruises on his body vanished. Either way, that's Taijutsu not Kenjutsu. I already agreed that Kakashi would beat Sasuke if Sasuke only used his hands.

And where did he match Itachi in Taijutsu? All I remember is Kakashi being able to evade a punch from Itachi. This doesn't even matter regardless. Kakashi being able to keep up with Itachi in hand to hand doesn't mean he beats Sasuke in CQC when Sasuke doesn't fight hand to hand, he fights with a sword.

Dust? He totally destroyed the tree while on the run here without even slowing down as if it didn't existed:

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Lol, he destroyed part of the tree's root without slowing down. Though I'll admit I didn't see the part where he actually wrecked the tree root.

Creating a hole in a boulder isn't even comparable to this:

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Let alone what adult Kakashi can do
Agreed but how do you know Kakashi couldn't do this?
How do you know Post-timeskip Sasuke's chidori is stronger? Because he physically became stronger doesn't prove his chidori ninjutsu lethality became more powerful

Ok

Whether or not Kakashi can match KN1 Naruto's Rasengan doesn't matter, because that's kid KN1 Naruto.

-Grabs Kid Kakashi's feat, then states Adult Kakashi's is stronger.
-I list Sasuke's feat, say that Post Timeskip's Sasuke's is stronger.
-This guy questions the boost in power.

The stronger the person the stronger their jutsu get. Unless the strength of Sasuke's chakra is the same as it was when he was a kid, which is false, then his Chidori and the rest of his Ninjutsu will clearly be stronger. Physical strength isn't why.

There is a reason why similar jutsus are classified with different level of difficulty to master. That means that the level of nature transformation in the raikiri is higher and if it's higher, it implies superiority. Not to mention if i remember in the databook, it says that Raikiri can cut anything, something that doesn't say with chidori(it only says that it can destroy boulders) suggesting that the level of hype behind the raikiri is higher

When used by the same person yes, rank can possibly (not always) matter. But Sasuke and Kakashi are not the same person. Sasuke's chakra>Kakashi's chakra in power. Throw in the fact that there is no major difference between PT 2 Sasuke and PT 2 Kakashi's Chidori and the fact that Sasuke has a boost from the Curse Mark, which is just as large as the boost in power KN1 gives Naruto, and you come to the obvious conclusion that Sasuke's Chidori is stronger.

Only in chakra. His physical strength didn't change. He doesn't need to maintain him for long anyway. The clone can paralyse him with raiton(especially if it's destroyed), the clone can have explosives on him, the clone can be used as a distraction til the time the original finishes Sasuke from behind with a raikiri

Hmm, makes sense but I read something that convinced me otherwise, can't remember where it was. (used to believe the same) No point wasting time on this tho since DB puts Sasuke equal with Kakashi in Base, let alone Curse Mark, and strength won't help him against Sasuke's Kenjutsu. So I'll just agree here. An explosive tag isn't going to do anything significant to Sasuke if he's using CM2 either, so that strategy fails.

-Already countered paralyzing with Raiton. Darui tried the same thing and Sasuke was unaffected. Killer B tried to stab Sasuke with his Raiton Blades, only for him to defuse them with his own raiton.

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So a feint+a back attack is easily reacted to. Especially since Sasuke can already keep up with his speed in Base let alone CM1 or CM2.

Look at this scan again. It destroyed the entire environmnent leaving only the debris where Kakashi is:

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It has also been rated to be: 1.64 - 1.9 kilotons (Naruto)
When Deidara's C2 has been calculated to be 1.2 kilotons (Naruto)
You can see it here by going through it(long though)

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And all that rubble only makes up about 2-4 houses. How is that town level? That OBD listing doesn't work since we have no idea whether it rates Deva's regular ST or the ST that pushed 3 boss toads from the center of the village to the outskirts and smashed a lot of the bones in their body. Considering Kakashi isn't more durable than Gamabunta (and he didn't even hit the ground and was uninjured after the fact) I'm going to go ahead and say that this ranking takes the boss toad ST into account and not Deva's basic ST.

They are KO'd not injured. Look at the middle left scan again:

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Didn't even see them, but not only are they fodders, this doesn't prove your point that they never hit the ground.

Not sure why you think it doesn't damage. Everytime it was used the opponent was feeling hurt("ugh" Argghhh"):

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It does damage the victim. The pressure is that powerful. Do you really think that ground is what is responsible in KO'ing all those guys when Naruto characters survived worst? How does it destroy ninjutsus if it doesn't do damage? How does it destroy the environment if it doesn't do damage? How does it disperse physical and tangible clones if it doesn't do damage:

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How does the shock destroy a forest:

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Doesn't even make sense

"Ugh" can be used as a response to being blown back hundreds of meters, not just being hurt. The scan you just posted ends this discussion anyway.

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Killer B is hit head on by a Shinra Tensei that can clear a large part of a forest yet he takes no damage and shows no sign of feeling anything at all. B is not super durable in Base, so don't argue that he tanked it's full force when you claim it's stronger than C2. And I'm not sure if serious with the bold. Obviously the ground isn't doing the damage, the impact made when an object is thrown by the force of ST and hits the ground is what does the damage.

-It's a repulsive force, the trees are rooted to the ground, thus they won't go flying like a regular human would, which is why Kakashi's Doton Wall was obliterated but Kakashi himself was fine and uninjured, which also brings up another point. Are you really going to argue that a jutsu Kakashi uses to protect himself is less durable than his body? :lol I hope not.

-It destroying Ninjutsu is because it's a repulsive force. Damage has nothing to do with it.

Not only that logic is farfetched(considering he was sent flying to obviously fall on ground too), but see above. Shinra tensei does do damage

He was sent flying upwards, meaning he has the opportunity to land on his feet after his ascension has ended.

Choji survived because he got protected by Choza(said it himself). And i don't think we don't really need feats from the leader of the physical strongest in entire Konoha. About C2, see above, the regular Shinra tensei is stronger

Physically strongest=/=Most durable.

 

[Curse Mark]

Except you are wrong as that makes no sense. Can't agree to disagree on a fact.

What part of what you said was fact?

 

[KidGamer65]

What part of what you said was fact?

The intent to kill not making Kakashi's punch harder is fact. Not sure why you and some others seem to believe that a person can't fight at top strength and not hold back without the intent to kill, but that's been showcased so many times that even questioning it is ridiculous.

-Most Chunin Exam fights were not fought with the intent to kill.
-Naruto fought Sasuke at VoTE (both times) without the intent to kill yet he gave it all he had.

And I can list more.

 

[EZQ]

The intent to kill not making Kakashi's punch harder is fact. Not sure why you and some others seem to believe that a person can't fight at top strength and not hold back without the intent to kill, but that's been showcased so many times that even questioning it is ridiculous.

-Most Chunin Exam fights were not fought with the intent to kill.
-Naruto fought Sasuke at VoTE (both times) without the intent to kill yet he gave it all he had.

And I can list more.

I think that Kakashi anyways had intent to kill lol. He later explains Naruto he will kill Sasuke so i don't think he was going easy on him.

Besides it's true i don't see how the intent would make Kakashi punch softer. A punch is a punch. He won't kill Sasuke with just taijutsu so with or without killing intent his taijutsu was at max level there.

 

[Unorthodox]

Sasuke has snake strong enough to stop jugo

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And Juugo physicaly feats shit on Kakash's this is for the cqc arguments.

Also why do people forget about Sasuke's shuriken jutsu smh.

 

[TheUnbiasedOne]

No, he got blind during this fight, not before. And however I'm not arguing that Kakashi is stronger than Sasuke: he isn't. Only, he can use his abilities way better

They're basically equals in CQC, but Sasuke's sword reach will give him an edge. With CM2, the strength buff decimates Kakashi close up.

 

[EZQ]

Sasuke has snake strong enough to stop jugo

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And Juugo physicaly feats shit on Kakash's this is for the cqc arguments.

Also why do people forget about Sasuke's shuriken jutsu smh.

Kakashi is faster and has more reflexes than those thuds. He wouldn't get restrained by that. Tho it's a good defence for Sasuke. I remember him using it to protect his body against Itachi and against Deidara.

 

[Curse Mark]

Kakashi is faster and has more reflexes than those thuds. He wouldn't get restrained by that. Tho it's a good defence for Sasuke. I remember him using it to protect his body against Itachi and against Deidara.

Jugo reacted to the raikage.

 

[EZQ]

Jugo reacted to the raikage.

v2 Juugo is a user of senjutsu, his reflexes are above average. And he did not react to the raikage. They both clashes against eachother at the same time

 

[Curse Mark]

v2 Juugo is a user of senjutsu, his reflexes are above average. And he did not react to the raikage. They both clashes against eachother at the same time

I think you're either very confused or there's a translation issue. Nothing in this post is entirely correct