Shadow Phantasm
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There are many explanations for how Hashirama died in battle,hell a Third Raikage situation could've happened when he was overwhelmed by sheer numbers.
Hashirama wasn't that strong.
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There are many explanations for how Hashirama died in battle,hell a Third Raikage situation could've happened when he was overwhelmed by sheer numbers.
WalksInShadows
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you're not stating a fact, because you failed to either remember or realize that when Black Zetsu made that statement, he was clearly referring to when he first discovered Madara. And that was long before Madara ever read the tablet. The fact that you're drawing this out says you were bent out of shape about it. If it didn't bother you, you wouldn't have felt inclined to reply about it.
KidGamer65
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1. No one said he was invincible, that just means that no one beat him in a fair one on one fight. Which is what the OP claimed.
2. He only "held Madara to a higher pedestal" than Hashirama, because Madara showed the drive and the ability to get what he needed to awaken the Rinnegan. Hell, he didn't think Madara was anything but a puppet, can't really say he held him to higher pedestal than Hashirama.
WalksInShadows
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so what? Wars aren't fought in fair 1v1 matches.
he didn't lead Kabuto to his corpse solely because Madara had a drive to get what he wanted.
and where, pray tell, did he say that? The closest thing to a negative statement he directed towards Madara was telling him he didn't hold an exclusive on using ppl.
KidGamer65
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Once again, no one said they were. OP claimed that someone solo'd Hashirama, I said no, and provided my argument.
He led Kabuto to Madara's corpse purely because of his strength actually, not because he held Madara to a higher pedestal than everyone else. Then he used Madara's corpse as a card to make Obito collaborate.
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Which all relates the to the fact that Madara needed to be revived as he was the only one with the Rinnegan.
Black Zetsu lead Kabuto to his corpse because Madara needed to be revived somehow as he was the only one in this world to awaken the Rinnegan. Not because he thought of him as some prodigy. To BZ,
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He asked him why he thinks he's so much different from everyone else, and that unlike Obito, he can use everyone else. Black Zetsu made it clear as day that Madara was just another puppet in his play.
WalksInShadows
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1.
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If it was purely strength he was after, he could've went after Hashirama.
2.
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Black Zetsu clearly points out that the focus he directed on Madara wasn't based solely on the guy's power and fighting ability.
3. Furthermore, Obito and Nagato had Madara's Rinnegan, yet he wasn't all that driven to be that focused on either one of them.
what you claim makes absolutely no sense. First you claim the focus Madara had gotten from Black Zetsu was solely about his strength, and now you're trying to claim Madara was no prodigy. If Madara was to be capable of becoming the second Rikudou like Black Zetsu said, of course he had to be one :vincent:
and yet none of that changes any of the posthumous hype Black Zetsu gave him.
The manga made it clear that Madara was not on his level. I think he was held to such a high degree because he had suppressed all 9 tailed beast and dished them out to other villages to balance the nations. Not being on his level does not mean he was invincible, because he clearly wasn't.
How do you think he died? He died fairly young in the First World War. Who could have possibly killed him? A bunch of fodders ganging him like they did Sandaime Raikage is unlikely, the Buddha stomps any amount of fodders. Him dying from exhaustion is unlikely, his chakra is too huge, hes the Shinju in human form. I think overall he was the strongest of his era but there were some guys here and there (namely the other first Kage) who could potentially kill him. I think of it as Onoki and Ay. Onoki is stronger than Ay overall but Ay can kill him with a well executed blitz, that sort of thing.
KidGamer65
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Invincible? No, but I never said he was invincible, just that no one could solo him in a one on one fight.
That info came from the First Databook, I'd take it with a grain of salt nowadays, and someone blitzing him is not only unlikely, its not the only thing possible. Exhaustion is possible as a few Mokuton jutsu and the Buddha wore him out at VoTE, if shitloads of fodder came at him, then he'd exhaust himself and die. Or if someone strong enough weakened him enough for that to happen, or if he sacrificed himself to save one of his comrades.
All I know is that someone didn't solo him.
Hashirama's corpse? Why? When he needs the Rinnegan? Why when he doesn't know where it is, but he apparently knew where Madara hid his.
I can agree here. The only reason he was focused on him was because of his drive for his goal, which was at the time, peace. When he wrote the nonsense BZ wrote on the tablet, he only tried harder to obtain the Rinnegan.
Its not cause he thought of Madara as some 1 in a million genius.
Cause they didn't awaken it, thus they can't do what Madara can do with it. If they had gotten it, BZ would be all over one of them, and not Madara.
I never said that he wasn't a prodigy. I just said that Black Zetsu didn't consider him as one. Completely different. Being a prodigy isn't the reason he got the Rinnegan. He got it because he was strong enough to take Hashirama's power for himself, and because he had the necessary drive to do it.
He only said that he knew he could get the Rinnegan.
WalksInShadows
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i'm talking about when Hashirama was alive *facepalm* Black Zetsu already said both sides of the bloodline were genetically capable of awakening Rinnegan. If power was all that he was after, he could've simply kept an eye on Hashirama or directed him towards getting it.
your selective narrative is as plain as day, even when i provided manga evidence that Madara's intellect was another reason. You're not going to convince anybody otherwise with that attitude.
which only proves your argument wrong. If Madara was too big an idiot not to know how to use a Rinnegan he awakened or get anything else done, what was the point in backing him until the time came where he made his move in betraying him. What makes your ignorance even more obvious is the very fact that Black Zetsu said Madara was no fool. But according to you, that says nothing at all about Madara's intellect.
so because he considered Madara another tool to use, it says nothing about him having faith in Madara being smart enough to cast MT? Ok
you definitely didn't pay enough attention to Black Zetsu's story. What he said was
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. What makes your argument even more invalid is that he even went so far to further elaborate on Madara's intellect by recounting how Madara had came into that fight already prepared for the possibility of him getting killed and him properly translating the meaning of the statement he recited to Hashirama. So no, it wasn't just about Madara's strength or him awakening Rinnegan.
ninjarasengan
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Simple take someone he cares about Hostage and demand he kill himself...I could actually see him doing this while thinking the village is in good hands with Tobirama still around.
Kabuto once made a drug that nullified the ability to use Mokuton...Someone in the past could have.
I doubt Zetsu offed him because he would have gloated about it.
Remember Oonoki's flashback of meeting Madara...Madara was ordering people to Obey Konoha and i forgot who responded...but they said something along the lines of "That is not what Hashirama Dono said" maybe this was after that first Gokage meeting and Perhaps Madara pissed the other five off by saying this after what Hashirama had Said to them, making Hashirama seem like a liar. Then Madara attacks Konoha repeatedly weaking it and resulting in his final clash with Hashirama...after Madara's leaving Konoha and seemingly being killed,significantly depleting Konoha's power. The other villages he was strong arming could have banded together like what was done to Uzushio. That is a potential 8 Kage level nin if you count the reigning Kage at the time and the guys that took over for them...not to mention Madara might have also pissed of Minor villages with strong guys like Kakuzu. And even the Bijuu Hashirama gave away could have been sent as unstable weapons similar to Rin's situation
off topic, but maybe this was when Uzumaki's gained their reputations and would explained why an alliance was formed to take them out. They would have supported Konoha in the above scenario after all.
Point is him actually being Killed in a war, still wouldn't really invalidate his tittle of God of Shinobi(Seeing how he killed his only rival and defeated Full Kyuubi). That's the power of Teamwork
Kabuto once made a drug that nullified the ability to use Mokuton...Someone in the past could have.
I doubt Zetsu offed him because he would have gloated about it.
Remember Oonoki's flashback of meeting Madara...Madara was ordering people to Obey Konoha and i forgot who responded...but they said something along the lines of "That is not what Hashirama Dono said" maybe this was after that first Gokage meeting and Perhaps Madara pissed the other five off by saying this after what Hashirama had Said to them, making Hashirama seem like a liar. Then Madara attacks Konoha repeatedly weaking it and resulting in his final clash with Hashirama...after Madara's leaving Konoha and seemingly being killed,significantly depleting Konoha's power. The other villages he was strong arming could have banded together like what was done to Uzushio. That is a potential 8 Kage level nin if you count the reigning Kage at the time and the guys that took over for them...not to mention Madara might have also pissed of Minor villages with strong guys like Kakuzu. And even the Bijuu Hashirama gave away could have been sent as unstable weapons similar to Rin's situation
off topic, but maybe this was when Uzumaki's gained their reputations and would explained why an alliance was formed to take them out. They would have supported Konoha in the above scenario after all.
Point is him actually being Killed in a war, still wouldn't really invalidate his tittle of God of Shinobi(Seeing how he killed his only rival and defeated Full Kyuubi). That's the power of Teamwork
TrollingSage
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LEL. Stop it please. He chose Madara because he was mentally unstable and more likely to go with his plans. Why will he go after Hashirama when Madara was willing and able?i'm talking about when Hashirama was alive *facepalm* Black Zetsu already said both sides of the bloodline were genetically capable of awakening Rinnegan. If power was all that he was after, he could've simply kept an eye on Hashirama or directed him towards getting it.
your selective narrative is as plain as day, even when i provided manga evidence that Madara's intellect was another reason. You're not going to convince anybody otherwise with that attitude.
which only proves your argument wrong. If Madara was too big an idiot not to know how to use a Rinnegan he awakened or get anything else done, what was the point in backing him until the time came where he made his move in betraying him. What makes your ignorance even more obvious is the very fact that Black Zetsu said Madara was no fool. But according to you, that says nothing at all about Madara's intellect.
so because he considered Madara another tool to use, it says nothing about him having faith in Madara being smart enough to cast MT? Ok
you definitely didn't pay enough attention to Black Zetsu's story. What he said wasYou must be registered for see links.
What makes your argument even more invalid is that he even went so far to further elaborate on Madara's intellect by recounting how Madara had came into that fight already prepared for the possibility of him getting killed and him properly translating the meaning of the statement he recited to Hashirama. So no, it wasn't just about Madara's strength or him awakening Rinnegan.
WalksInShadows
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TrollingSage
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Now tell me it wouldn't have been a waste of time for Zetsu to tempt Hashirama with the rinnegan?
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