Hashirama never went all out?

[Ahmed1993]

Says the biggest Hashi fanboy ever...

 

[KingHashirama]

Says the biggest Hashi fanboy ever...

I guess so.

 

[Reflection]

Honestly though, Hashirama didn't want to kill Madara at first. You can tell he had an "enough is enough" moment when he remembered the flashbacks and shanked Foddera in the back. I think if he wanted to kill him from the beginning, it would've been as easy as stabbing a fodder in the back... lol.

 

[Oblivionx]

Him holding back = not going all out...

in that case madara was holding back as well...! he didn't use genjutsu and gave hashirama enough time to enter SM as well...! he even said it, "is running around all you can do" and then at the end he just stood there being happy about his win...! i can say he wasn't even trying to kill hashirama but was trying to defeat him...! dude holding back goes both ways...!

again by this logic not a single character in NV has gone all out...!

 

[6pathofpain]

False, he brought out the buddha, to stop the Kurama+PS combination quickly. Hell he made Madara chase him so the location there won't be damaged.

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He stabbed Madara after seeing that Madara had fallen low. You can see the face change in this scan clearly, and those "flashbacks" always have a meaning. And notice that the flashbacks were about.

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If Hashirama had go on all out, do you really believe he would've been able to use that wood clone like that? and finish off Madara that easily?

He could've stayed on the buddha and kept on spamming the hands.. but he didn't he got off.

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No, he went all out that fight. He was trying to kill madara. And he used the wood clones at the perfect time to do it. Its called strategy. Going all out doesn't always mean using your stronger attack to win.

 

[KingHashirama]

in that case madara was holding back as well...! he didn't use genjutsu and gave hashirama enough time to enter SM as well...! he even said it, "is running around all you can do" and then at the end he just stood there being happy about his win...! i can say he wasn't even trying to kill hashirama but was trying to defeat him...! dude holding back goes both ways...!

again by this logic not a single character in NV has gone all out...!

Don't claim you are using my logic, when you are not.

Madara the guy who went out of his way to manipulate Kurama with genjutsu to use it against Hashirama, was holding back? oh really?
Fact: Hashirama was trying to change Madara, he wasn't trying to beat him. In all their fights Hashirama had always been trying to change Madara not beat him. Even in the first EMS vs Hashirama fight, he didn't beat Madara but stopped the fight once Madara got tired.

So no holding back doesn't go both ways, by using my logic.

No, he went all out that fight. He was trying to kill madara. And he used the wood clones at the perfect time to do it. Its called strategy. Going all out doesn't always mean using your stronger attack to win.

He was trying to change him.........

He could've killed him with a wood clone before he brought out Kurama.

Didn't i just say using all out doesn't = using strongest attack in the OT?

 

[Oblivionx]

Don't claim you are using my logic, when you are not.

Madara the guy who went out of his way to manipulate Kurama with genjutsu to use it against Hashirama, was holding back? oh really?
Fact: Hashirama was trying to change Madara, he wasn't trying to beat him. In all their fights Hashirama had always been trying to change Madara not beat him. Even in the first EMS vs Hashirama fight, he didn't beat Madara but stopped the fight once Madara got tired.

So no holding back doesn't go both ways, by using my logic.



He was trying to change him.........

He could've killed him with a wood clone before he brought out Kurama.

Didn't i just say using all out doesn't = using strongest attack in the OT?

did madara ever tried to kill hashirama??? no he considered him rival and respected him and wanted to defeat hashirama not kill him...! and you mentioned wood clone, dude tell me why madara didn't use genjutsu on hashirama??? why didn't madara use katon when it could have been so effective against mokuton??? madara was the one prolonging the fight...! and the fight you mentioned before VOTE...! madara was just emotionally desperate and just started fighting...! he wasn't there to kill hashirama either....! again going all out means you are tired to your bones not that they have to use all techs and if hashirama had used clone tech any earlier it wouldn't have worked as it worked only because madara's EMS was off...! he hmself claimed it that he was the only one blah blah blah...!

 

[6pathofpain]

Don't claim you are using my logic, when you are not.

Madara the guy who went out of his way to manipulate Kurama with genjutsu to use it against Hashirama, was holding back? oh really?
Fact: Hashirama was trying to change Madara, he wasn't trying to beat him. In all their fights Hashirama had always been trying to change Madara not beat him. Even in the first EMS vs Hashirama fight, he didn't beat Madara but stopped the fight once Madara got tired.

So no holding back doesn't go both ways, by using my logic.



He was trying to change him.........

He could've killed him with a wood clone before he brought out Kurama.

Didn't i just say using all out doesn't = using strongest attack in the OT?

Not true, he used it when he used it cause madara's guard was down and he was tired and vulnerable, it was the perfect time.

 

[Erza Scarlet]

I see where you're coming from. Due to his condition, and him having to surreptitiously stab Madara in the back to defeat him at Vote....I believe he went all out. Didn't he collapse after that fight...? I'm asking I can't really remember.

I doubt he collapsed since he most likely went on to fight the Kyuubi straight after which is what shows Hashirama messed up in Kurama's flash back of people saying that he's just a source of power.

 

[KingHashirama]

Not true, he used it when he used it cause madara's guard was down and he was tired and vulnerable, it was the perfect time.

reread, he clearly closes his eyes to reassure himself , and goes on to stab him.. no shinobi brings their guard down in battle.

did madara ever tried to kill hashirama??? no he considered him rival and respected him and wanted to defeat hashirama not kill him...! and you mentioned wood clone, dude tell me why madara didn't use genjutsu on hashirama??? why didn't madara use katon when it could have been so effective against mokuton??? madara was the one prolonging the fight...! and the fight you mentioned before VOTE...! madara was just emotionally desperate and just started fighting...! he wasn't there to kill hashirama either....! again going all out means you are tired to your bones not that they have to use all techs and if hashirama had used clone tech any earlier it wouldn't have worked as it worked only because madara's EMS was off...! he hmself claimed it that he was the only one blah blah blah...!

Madara tried to kill Hashirama in the past plenty of times. During the clan wars.. have you even been paying attention?

"emotionally desperate", show me scans of emotionally desperate. And he did want to kill Hashirama. Unless you can provide some implications that he wasn't there to kill Hashirama.

Fact: Every 1 vs 1 fight Madara and Hashirama had , was started by Madara. Hashirama had always been trying to change him. Even when Izuna died, Hashirama tried to change Madara. Even after knowing his bro was killed by the uchiha, Hashirama tried to change Madara.

In the end, Hashirama only had the killing intent 1 time against madara, and when he did. He killed him quiet easily. I'm not making this up, everything i'm saying is supported by what is in the manga.

 

[Oblivionx]

Madara tried to kill Hashirama in the past plenty of times. During the clan wars.. have you even been paying attention?

"emotionally desperate", show me scans of emotionally desperate. And he did want to kill Hashirama. Unless you can provide some implications that he wasn't there to kill Hashirama.

Fact: Every 1 vs 1 fight Madara and Hashirama had , was started by Madara. Hashirama had always been trying to change him. Even when Izuna died, Hashirama tried to change Madara. Even after knowing his bro was killed by the uchiha, Hashirama tried to change Madara.

In the end, Hashirama only had the killing intent 1 time against madara, and when he did. He killed him quiet easily. I'm not making this up, everything i'm saying is supported by what is in the manga.

huh! till izuna died madara was actually a friend of hashirama and when izuna was dying hashirama did try to convince madara and madara was almost convinced that's why izuna interfered...! madara never tried to kill hashirama till then...! afterwards we saw them in 1 battle that i claimed was emotional battle from madara because his brother died...! or are you telling me madara alone went to kill hashirama & tobirama and entire senju clan??? huh! that would be hilarious...!
yes every fight was started by madara because he was weaker than hashirama...! so he wanted to prove that he wasn't weak by defeating hashirama...! actually he wanted to prove it to hashirama and i don't see how he could have done it if he killed hashirama...!
i never said hashirama had killing intent till the last moment but what i'm saying is that madara didn't had killing intent at all...! he had defeating mindset...! also if your claims are supported by manga then tell me why manga states that madara fought hashirama at VOTE for his DNA and doesn't say for killing him???
dude you and i have completely different understanding of manga...! i know this feeling...! because i feel the same way for minato but if writer decides that's all he is going to give a certain character than that is all....! :bye:

 

[xxSAGExx]

By all out i'm not referring to simply using a single technique that we know as his "strongest" (though technically its not). By all out i'm referring to him using everything he has.

This is all my opinion:

During the clan fights, he faced Madara with an intent to not kill him.

During VOTE, if u notice he had been only countering madara.

During Edo tensei , God tree messed up the whole battle and had 4 wood clones helping out the alliance (each having the power to lead a juubi tbb ).


So , in reality we have never even seen Hashirama go all out in battle.

Well what is your opinion on this, has he gone all out or no?

Oh I been knew this. For VoTE he never even used Bijuus 2-8. He was already Hokage so he can't go Bijuu hunting and he didn't give them away before that fight because the point of giving Bijuus to the other countries was to balance power but how is it balanced if Konoha didn't have Kurama? Tobirama wouldn't let Hashirama give them away if it means they had none so it had to take place after the VoTE fight. Orochimaru said how he wanted Hashirama's ability to "Bend 'Bijuu' to his own will..."

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, Mei said Hashirama and Madara were both able to control Bijuus

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.

So from Orochimaru, who research Hashirama to the point of trying to replicate his abilities in numerous attempts, would have an idea of Hashirama's abilities as he did about how to break Death Reaper Seal. As for Edo Hashirama, he his power was split amongst his clones, even as an edo tensi his power still gets evenly split among his clones, as shown when Edo Tobirama said even if they cancelled their clones that they still wouldn't make it

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. Make what? The gap in power between them and Obito is the only logical answer so Hashirama's power was split by the same amount of clones he made. We know Edo Tensei gives the edo's infinite chakra but do we know how? Being dead they can't produce more chakra as a person alive can so when they are said to have infinite chakra, it can mean their able to recover the same amount of chakra back as a living person, or that it recovers at a certain pace but I doubt they automatically have it restored E.I Minato running out of chakra.

He went all out at the VoTE. Only ever countered? He pummeled the Kyuubi and Madara with 1000 fists of wood, manhandled his Kyuubi, and Stabbed him through the back.

Countering is a form of combat. That doesn't mean he didn't want to end it. He was just waiting for the right moment to attack.

He was mostly countering, remember Madara was controlling Kurama to fight so Hashirama tried to go after Kurama before he can further attack him

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. Countered PS+Kurama

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. Countered tbb+Susanoo blade

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. Then it goes on to him going SM then went to take Kurama out of the battle.

Hashirama did say he didn't want to kill Madara which made Madara mad and he asked if Hashirama thinks he could have killed him whenever he wants. Now if you were in this position and trying to talk your old friend into a peaceful way to end this will you tell them you can kill them whenever? No, we saw how Sasuke handled Naruto being stronger than him in part 1 and in the war and he's suppose to mirror Madara.

If Hashirama was going all out then why didn't he go SM before hand instead of hours of fighting before hand? Why didn't he used the 2-8 Bijuus he had in his possession? Hashirama was Hokage when he fought Madara, he got Kurama from Madara after that fight. He gave Bijuus away to set up a power balance but wouldn't give out Bijuus before Konoha had Kurama because that means he left his village without a Bijuus and leave the power balance uneven and Tobirama wouldn't allow that to happen since he was an advisor to Hashirama. So again, where were Bijuus 2.8 that Hashirama had? He didn't feel the need to use them, thus he wasn't fighting all out.

 

[Bronze]

I could have swore Madara said they were fighting to the death.

 

[pateuvasiliu]

He went all out at the VoTE. Only ever countered? He pummeled the Kyuubi and Madara with 1000 fists of wood, manhandled his Kyuubi, and Stabbed him through the back.

Countering is a form of combat. That doesn't mean he didn't want to end it. He was just waiting for the right moment to attack.

When Hashirama pulled out Shinsusenju he was like '' It can't be helped... ''

He did it so casually and beat Madara badly. I think that's what he talks about. Madara was all '' I AM AT THE TOP I KILL YOU WAAAGH '' whereas Hashirama was chill.

 

[xxSAGExx]

huh! till izuna died madara was actually a friend of hashirama and when izuna was dying hashirama did try to convince madara and madara was almost convinced that's why izuna interfered...! madara never tried to kill hashirama till then...! afterwards we saw them in 1 battle that i claimed was emotional battle from madara because his brother died...! or are you telling me madara alone went to kill hashirama & tobirama and entire senju clan??? huh! that would be hilarious...!
yes every fight was started by madara because he was weaker than hashirama...! so he wanted to prove that he wasn't weak by defeating hashirama...! actually he wanted to prove it to hashirama and i don't see how he could have done it if he killed hashirama...!
i never said hashirama had killing intent till the last moment but what i'm saying is that madara didn't had killing intent at all...! he had defeating mindset...! also if your claims are supported by manga then tell me why manga states that madara fought hashirama at VOTE for his DNA and doesn't say for killing him???
dude you and i have completely different understanding of manga...! i know this feeling...! because i feel the same way for minato but if writer decides that's all he is going to give a certain character than that is all....! :bye:

Madara cut his ties with Hashirama after he saved Izuna from being killed, he said how Senjus killed his other brothers and said how Hashirama was a Senju and that they will fight on the battle field

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. He also awakened his Sharingan at that same moment which shows Madara's resolve

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. Hashirama even goes on to say that Madara decided to completely erase him

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.

Madara might have questioned if he show take Hashirama's pact for peace but from what we know of Madara it didn't seem like he would, his brother was just injured by Tobirama and then later died. Izuna was consumed by hatred for Senjus from losing his brothers and many other Uchihas from the Senjus and Madara had that same hatred so it is hard to say if he would consider Hashirama's pact right then and there even if Izuna said nothing.

Hashirama told Madara (MS) that he couldn't beat him and only tried to reason with him

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. Madara brought Kurama to his fight with Hashirama, if he wasn't planning on killing him then he wouldn't need such power would he? He had enough skills to try and slash Hashirama to get some of his blood

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. Killing Hashirama would prove Uchihas superior, him Superior and gain him access to all of Hashirama's DNA he wants.

 

[Ovan]

They said Hashirama and Madara was fighting for 2 days right? I think Hashirama was giving Madara a chance to come to his senses while he put up with his bullcrap. Day 2 come and he figured that it should be done with.

 

[PIOLO]

its only true and a fact that he's a myth, he's just strong when madara keep telling that he is the only person to stop him yet the continious fooling to hashirama and he's believing while the continious fooling was happened... only a fool kid will believe madara simply exposed that hashi has without a doubt not using his empty pathetic brain

 

[Multiply]

He went all out at the VoTE. Only ever countered? He pummeled the Kyuubi and Madara with 1000 fists of wood, manhandled his Kyuubi, and Stabbed him through the back.

Countering is a form of combat. That doesn't mean he didn't want to end it. He was just waiting for the right moment to attack.

I agree with this, however, Hashirama wasn't going all out until he entered Sage Mode in VoTE. While countering is a form of combat, it was shown Hashirama was trying to calm Madara down up until the point of climax. He realized Madara couldn't be changed, and went on to kill him. Hashirama's countering, while a form of combat, was not intended to kill Madara, but to buy some time to attempt to change his mind. The only arguable point against that is when he charged the TBB into Madara, which I would argue was more of Kishi trying to make an epic clash than anything. Considering right after Hashi got serious, he did in every sense of the made up word, fodderize the tag-team that was Madara and Kurama.

 

[Oblivionx]

Madara cut his ties with Hashirama after he saved Izuna from being killed, he said how Senjus killed his other brothers and said how Hashirama was a Senju and that they will fight on the battle field

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. He also awakened his Sharingan at that same moment which shows Madara's resolve

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. Hashirama even goes on to say that Madara decided to completely erase him

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.

Madara might have questioned if he show take Hashirama's pact for peace but from what we know of Madara it didn't seem like he would, his brother was just injured by Tobirama and then later died. Izuna was consumed by hatred for Senjus from losing his brothers and many other Uchihas from the Senjus and Madara had that same hatred so it is hard to say if he would consider Hashirama's pact right then and there even if Izuna said nothing.

Hashirama told Madara (MS) that he couldn't beat him and only tried to reason with him

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. Madara brought Kurama to his fight with Hashirama, if he wasn't planning on killing him then he wouldn't need such power would he? He had enough skills to try and slash Hashirama to get some of his blood

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. Killing Hashirama would prove Uchihas superior, him Superior and gain him access to all of Hashirama's DNA he wants.

you say madara cut his ties with hashirama after saving izuna...! is it kid izuna or old one?? when izuna was slashed by tobirama madara was willing to listen to hashirama even at that time but izuna didn't allowed him to...! and you are saying madara had same hatred as izuna?? if it is kid izuna then let me tell you that madara was willing to co-operate with hashirama even after the death of izuna and it is clear that he was going through some emotional unstability...! otherwise why would he form villege togather with hashirama but then he realized with that rape face he left villege with that it's useless to co-operate...! so you can't say madara ever intended to kill hashirama before that...! madara even thought against 5 kages that the only thing his brother left him was hatred so it was izuna who changed madara after his death..!
and after that only 1 fight occurred and that was at VOTE...!
yes hashirama told madara that he can't beat him...! i know hashirama was stronger...! and madara knew it too...! that's why he brought kurama with him...! madara isn't a fool that even after knowing that hashirama is stronger he would fight him unprepared...! he was after his DNA, manga proves it..! not to kill him...! you say he could have slashed hashirama with the same sword hashirama grabbed with ease??? madara didn't care for uchiha at that time...! actually he had a grudge against them...! he wanted to prove himself superior by defeating hashirama and to hashirama...! that's why he dropped his gaurd at the last moment because he thought he has won...! his last statements clearly indicate that....! in the end it was hashirama who went on to kill, not madara...! and madara obviously had a plan to survive....!
and i'm an advocate of both going all out...! i'm not saying that madara didn't go all out, but both did....!

 

[xxSAGExx]

you say madara cut his ties with hashirama after saving izuna...! is it kid izuna or old one?? when izuna was slashed by tobirama madara was willing to listen to hashirama even at that time but izuna didn't allowed him to...! and you are saying madara had same hatred as izuna?? if it is kid izuna then let me tell you that madara was willing to co-operate with hashirama even after the death of izuna and it is clear that he was going through some emotional unstability...! otherwise why would he form villege togather with hashirama but then he realized with that rape face he left villege with that it's useless to co-operate...! so you can't say madara ever intended to kill hashirama before that...! madara even thought against 5 kages that the only thing his brother left him was hatred so it was izuna who changed madara after his death..!
and after that only 1 fight occurred and that was at VOTE...!
yes hashirama told madara that he can't beat him...! i know hashirama was stronger...! and madara knew it too...! that's why he brought kurama with him...! madara isn't a fool that even after knowing that hashirama is stronger he would fight him unprepared...! he was after his DNA, manga proves it..! not to kill him...! you say he could have slashed hashirama with the same sword hashirama grabbed with ease??? madara didn't care for uchiha at that time...! actually he had a grudge against them...! he wanted to prove himself superior by defeating hashirama and to hashirama...! that's why he dropped his gaurd at the last moment because he thought he has won...! his last statements clearly indicate that....! in the end it was hashirama who went on to kill, not madara...! and madara obviously had a plan to survive....!
and i'm an advocate of both going all out...! i'm not saying that madara didn't go all out, but both did....!

I was talking about when he saved kid Izuna, that's why I put the link of him talking right after saving him (

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). Hashirama even Madara decided to "erase" him, that is him severing his bond

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. Sasuke severed his bond to Naruto after part 1 and was going to try and kill him

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and

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. All Uchihas had hatred towards the Senjus and all Senjus except for Hashirama hated the Uchihas.

Madara considering Hashirama's pact doesn't mean he still had a bond to Hashirama, it can be more of Madara considering it to prevent anymore Uchiha deaths. Sasuke is helping Naruto right now but does he have a bond to him? No, he signify this when he severed Naruto's face

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. You can work with someone for your own benefits. Madara didn't re-establish his bond with Hashirama until he saw that Hashirama was actually serious about taking his own life for peace with the Uchihas

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.

Madara cut his bond with Hashirama before leaving Konoha as well as cut his bonds to his clan who turned their backs to him. Madara asked Hashirama if he would kill him or Tobirama, same as when he asked Hashirama to kill himself or Tobirama, When Hashirama was going to kill himself he chose Madara in a sense but when he didn't reply to the 2nd question Madara took it as him choosing Tobirama over him even though Hashirama called him brother

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. Madara even said their dreams have no connection

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, Same as when Sasuke told Naruto that he only cares about his goals and he's done with Konoha

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.

If Madara didn't have to fight Hashirama at all if all he wanted was Hashirama's DNA, he could have easily lied to Hashirama saying he wants to return and help Konoha and then either surprise attack Hashirama or just ask him for some blood for a new jutsu he's developing to help the village even if it's a lie. He wanted Hashirama's DNA, that was his ultimate goal but he did not care if Hashirama was alive or dead. He went in for the kill shot here and got fooled by a wood clone

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. Hashirama didn't grab any sword from Madara, Madara had his fan that has a scythe connected to it.