Hashirama can't be stronger than Madara, don't fool yourself

[AlphaScythian]

Of course he's not, it's the Jūbi. What is the Alpha of Narutoverse? Jūbi, therefore logically the Omega is also the Jūbi, Alpha and Omega, the first and the last. It all started with the Jūbi therefore it must end with the Jūbi.

Yeah but its "naruto" alpha and omega are different here as is the story.

 

[SIR HERDERP PRESIDERP SDO]

Yeah but its "naruto" alpha and omega are different here as is the story.

Then look at the dichotomy, what is the first dichotomy? Rikūdo vs Jūbi, Naruto who is Rikūdo's successor is now fighting against the Jūbi, the dichotomy and history is repeating itself. So I cannot see Madara who merely embodies the Elder Son to take on the role of final antagonist of the series.

 

[AlphaScythian]

When did it say that?
Also it clearly doesn't or he wouldn't have used him. Genjutsu can be used on more than one person... and he wasn't fighting Kurama at all.

Minato implied that u cant hold kurama for long

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Meaning it drains alot of chakra.
Kakashi noted that obito wasnt using rinnegan due to controlling bijus while at mere V2. Clearly madara was controlling kurama at costly expense of his own power.

 

[Waltz]

its not about jutsu is about skills and i think it was zetsu who said someone can have a a shiruken and still be beat by a pebble thrown by a master

it does not matter what jutsu madara has....hashirama is just a better more skilled thinker and ninja get over it madara fanboys

Yeah Hashirama wins.

Hashirama won vs. Madara + Kyuubi.

Hashirama destroys CT with 1K Hands.

Hashirama heals from Shinra Tensei and can use wood to hold him self up, like Naruto did with clones.

Madara using Mokuton on Hashirama? Please.

Anything else Madara has Hashirama dealt with before and can do it again.

Also don't you think it's strange? Madara constantly saying only Hashirama can defeat me and that it's too bad he's not here. But now he is?

Also Hashirama winning against Madara + Kyuubi?

It's obviously being shown that Hashirama will take him down.

People also forget that their both Edo and the only one out of the two that even has a chance to have a sealing Jutsu is Hashirama.

Funny.

Hashirama failed to Kill Madara to the pinnacle that Madara was capable of traveling from Konoha to The village of the hidden grass Kusagakure (his hideout) and recovered fully. Not only that but Madara was able to best Sennin Modo Hashirama along with the remains of Shin-shuusenju and a Mokuton Dragon as well as a Mokuton Golem without the Kyuubi's help. The Rinnegan is doubtlessly a bigger threat than the kyuubi as Tendō alone was able to subdue it:

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It's funny Erza makes the claim that Chibaku would be destroyed by Shin-shuusenju when it's able to reaches sizes as large as the moon, and an Edo-Madara wielding infinite chakra pools would most likely be able to produce one much larger than what we've seen from Nagato. Madara is able to to make 25 mokuton clones, all wielding the 'Rin'negan' and Eien no Mangekyou not to mention respective abilities for each Doujutsu but also the ability to act without Madara's actual presence. Based on Mokuton's composition being Doton, Suiton and Yoton Gakido should render it useless on contact and this goes for each clone. Madara has already stated that his EMS is able to see through Hashirama's Mokuton bunshin and also has the ability to anticipate attacks. Bearing in mind that the Mokuton Madara produces are jutsu he copied from Hashirama; they are of the same scale and quantity.Given that he has his edo abilities, he is able to use all such jutsu he copied from hashirama and added to this, the Rinnegan is a much greater potential threat in comparison with the kyuubi, which hashirama himself stated was overwhelming.

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Stating that only Hashirama is capable of sealing Madara and not the opposite as Madara could potentially seal Hashirama with Ningendo's soul removal technique. Could go on to say that Not only is Madara a perfect reflection of the Rikudo being both Senju and Uchiha in one body but Hashirama has 0 knowledge of what the Rin'negan has to offer.To mention also that Madara on the other hand is fully knowledgeable of Hashirama's arsenal.
​

 

[Ender Wiggin]

I like how people assume things, especially someone's knowledge of a technique.

 

[johnnyindigo]

Funny.

Hashirama failed to Kill Madara to the pinnacle that Madara was capable of traveling from Konoha to The village of the hidden grass Kusagakure (his hideout) and recovered fully. Not only that but Madara was able to best Sennin Modo Hashirama along with the remains of Shin-shuusenju and a Mokuton Dragon as well as a Mokuton Golem without the Kyuubi's help. The Rinnegan is doubtlessly a bigger threat than the kyuubi as Tendō alone was able to subdue it:

Spoiler

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It's funny Erza makes the claim that Chibaku would be destroyed by Shin-shuusenju when it's able to reaches sizes as large as the moon, and an Edo-Madara wielding infinite chakra pools would most likely be able to produce one much larger than what we've seen from Nagato. Madara is able to to make 25 mokuton clones, all wielding the 'Rin'negan' and Eien no Mangekyou not to mention respective abilities for each Doujutsu but also the ability to act without Madara's actual presence. Based on Mokuton's composition being Doton, Suiton and Yoton Gakido should render it useless on contact and this goes for each clone. Madara has already stated that his EMS is able to see through Hashirama's Mokuton bunshin and also has the ability to anticipate attacks. Bearing in mind that the Mokuton Madara produces are jutsu he copied from Hashirama; they are of the same scale and quantity.Given that he has his edo abilities, he is able to use all such jutsu he copied from hashirama and added to this, the Rinnegan is a much greater potential threat in comparison with the kyuubi, which hashirama himself stated was overwhelming.

Spoiler

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Stating that only Hashirama is capable of sealing Madara and not the opposite as Madara could potentially seal Hashirama with Ningendo's soul removal technique. Could go on to say that Not only is Madara a perfect reflection of the Rikudo being both Senju and Uchiha in one body but Hashirama has 0 knowledge of what the Rin'negan has to offer.To mention also that Madara on the other hand is fully knowledgeable of Hashirama's arsenal.
​

Thankyou I hate when people say that Edo Hashi > Edo Madara it just doesn't make sense

 

[crono0929]

Maybe this time it will be hashirama and tobirama vs madara, while naruto and minato vs obito...

 

[Erza Scarlet]

Funny.

Hashirama failed to Kill Madara to the pinnacle that Madara was capable of traveling from Konoha to The village of the hidden grass Kusagakure (his hideout) and recovered fully. Not only that but Madara was able to best Sennin Modo Hashirama along with the remains of Shin-shuusenju and a Mokuton Dragon as well as a Mokuton Golem without the Kyuubi's help. The Rinnegan is doubtlessly a bigger threat than the kyuubi as Tendō alone was able to subdue it:

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

It's funny Erza makes the claim that Chibaku would be destroyed by Shin-shuusenju when it's able to reaches sizes as large as the moon, and an Edo-Madara wielding infinite chakra pools would most likely be able to produce one much larger than what we've seen from Nagato. Madara is able to to make 25 mokuton clones, all wielding the 'Rin'negan' and Eien no Mangekyou not to mention respective abilities for each Doujutsu but also the ability to act without Madara's actual presence. Based on Mokuton's composition being Doton, Suiton and Yoton Gakido should render it useless on contact and this goes for each clone. Madara has already stated that his EMS is able to see through Hashirama's Mokuton bunshin and also has the ability to anticipate attacks. Bearing in mind that the Mokuton Madara produces are jutsu he copied from Hashirama; they are of the same scale and quantity.Given that he has his edo abilities, he is able to use all such jutsu he copied from hashirama and added to this, the Rinnegan is a much greater potential threat in comparison with the kyuubi, which hashirama himself stated was overwhelming.

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

Stating that only Hashirama is capable of sealing Madara and not the opposite as Madara could potentially seal Hashirama with Ningendo's soul removal technique. Could go on to say that Not only is Madara a perfect reflection of the Rikudo being both Senju and Uchiha in one body but Hashirama has 0 knowledge of what the Rin'negan has to offer.To mention also that Madara on the other hand is fully knowledgeable of Hashirama's arsenal.
​

Well clearly Hashirama can destroy CT before it gets to a big size, 1K Hands is around 5x bigger than the Kyuubi. You're seriously saying that it wont destroy CT?

I never said that Hashirama can it's just that he has the most chance of having a sealing Jutsu.

Hashirama can clearly make as many or more clones than Madara. Hashirama > Madara and so if Madara makes 25 clones, Hashirama does the same.

Madara's Mokuton is defiantly better than Hashirama's. I understand the argument that just because it was made by someone it doesn't mean another can't make it better, but clearly Hashirama's is better.

Rinnegan, I've stated a perfect counter to Shinra Tensei, Naruto withstood it using clones, Hashirama can heal from the damage even if he wasn't an Edo. He can also withstand it using his own clones or Mokuton itself. I've also said a counter for CT, there's no reason Hashirama wouldn't or couldn't do what I've said.

You say that Madara has full knowledge of Hashirama's arsenal but the same goes for Hashirama knowing Madara's. The only difference and thing I can agree on is that he doesn't know about the Rinnegan. He may not know that he has Mokuton but from using it once Hashirama will know he can use it and he will know how to counter it or block it when he needs to.

Also before you say Hashirama doesn't know how to counter CT and wouldn't just randomly throw out his strongest move. Itachi figured it out fast enough to also be able to tell the other 2 what to do which allowed it to grow, don't forget Nagato also had unlimited Chakra so Madara wouldn't be able to do it any faster, don't forget Madara hasn't had as much practise as Nagato... seeing as he gained it when he was too old to even use it fully, being hooked up and all.

But yeah, I still think Hashirama > Edo Madara.

Edit: Yes each perfect wood clone can do exactly the same as the user. Tell me what happens when it's 25, 1K Hands?

 

[Joshutsu]

Hashirama >>> All other hokage by leaps. If he can't do it their best shot is together.

 

[BlackFlame44]

For what reason would he not be able to use 1K Hands?

holy crap erza is smexy

 

[Bronze]

yes hashirama is no match for current madara, and the all of the ninja alliance will defeat him together thanks to the plot.

 

[Erza Scarlet]

holy crap erza is smexy

:O ... *in silence*

 

[Erza Scarlet]

yes hashirama is no match for current madara, and the all of the ninja alliance will defeat him together thanks to the plot.

No. Please tell me how he could win. I've showed how Hashirama counters everything Madara has. The only thing Is Juubi which seems to be under control.

 

[Bronze]

you are 100% correct, hashirama is not stronger than madara, and people need to know that now

 

[Waltz]

@Erza: That depends on Hashirama's Distance away from the jutsu [

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] and if Shin-shuusenju is available when Madara uses Chibaku tensei. You're also forgetting that Hashirama cannot attack the sphere until he has made contact with it as Shin-shuusenju works at close range and would also have the task of destroying the debris. Highlighting the fact that Hashirama isn't knowledgeable of how the jutsu works, he'd first have to reason that as well as it's counter [as Itachi] and this may vary. I can agree that he would escape after some point but it's highly unlikely that he could anticipate and counter a jutsu he has no knowledge of. ​

Also before you say Hashirama doesn't know how to counter CT and wouldn't just randomly throw out his strongest move. Itachi figured it out fast enough to also be able to tell the other 2 what to do

Hashirama isn't Itachi and and on what basis do you make this claim being that they are both 'Edo-tensei', [though Madara has endless chakra]?: ​

Hashirama can clearly make as many or more clones than Madara.

Also it will make no difference as each of Madara's clones possesses a double Doujutsu as well as Susano'o; only implying that Madara's Mokuton bunshin would be superior to Hashirama's. Again, the amount of Mokuton producible depends on the users chakra pools; Madara's is infinite, what of Hashirama? As for the Shinra-tensei argument, I'm referring to 'chou' shinra-tensei which was easily able to destroy konoha [a small scale one is able to clear a forest]. Now, after Nagato destroyed Konoha he had to rest due to his depleted chakra pools; with infinite chakra Madara should be able to spam them, do you really think Mokuton defenses would stand a chance against pressures at that scale? Hashirama countering his own techniques doesn't secure victory. Madara doesn't need to 'practice' with the Doujutsu as the Rin'negan grants the user all it's ability once they wield the eyes and is confirmed by the fact that Nagato even at a very young age and prior to learning basic Ninjutsu had access to the paths. 25 Shin-shuusenju would be confronted by Madara's 25 Rin'negan wielding bunshin: Same discussion. From what's been portrayed thus far, Hashirama isn't besting Madara in his Edo Tensei state alone, as he has both a perfect reflection both the body and Doujutsu of the Rikudo himself who was proclaimed a God.

Really simple concept to understand:

Rin'nengan abilities + EMS Abilities + Mokuton > Mokuton ​

 

[RikudouMadara]

No. Please tell me how he could win. I've showed how Hashirama counters everything Madara has. The only thing Is Juubi which seems to be under control.

While I dislike arguing I'll just ask...:yayy: Hashirama has shown not to make as many clones as Madara, so wouldn't it mean he cannot because he has shown not? Also a lot of your counters are just conjectures, I'm a Madara fan no doubt, but I won't argue him better than anyone else. Also is it not a fact that Edo Hashirama << Hashirama? While*Madara <<< Edo Madara? Imho opinion Madara is superior atm, but I feel plot, or some sporadic Jutsu from Hashirama will beat him. Imo as it stands Madara should be able to beat Hashirama 9/10 as of current. No disrespect intended in any such way.:bye:

 

[Erza Scarlet]

@Erza: That depends on Hashirama's Distance away from the jutsu [

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] and if Shin-shuusenju is available when Madara uses Chibaku tensei. You're also forgetting that Hashirama cannot attack the sphere until he has made contact with it as Shin-shuusenju works at close range and would also have the task of destroying the debris. Highlighting the fact that Hashirama isn't knowledgeable of how the jutsu works, he'd first have to reason that as well as it's counter [as Itachi] and this may vary. I can agree that he would escape after some point but it's highly unlikely that he could anticipate and counter a jutsu he has no knowledge of. ​

Hashirama isn't Itachi and and on what basis do you make this claim being that they are both 'Edo-tensei', [though Madara has endless chakra]?: ​

Also it will make no difference as each of Madara's clones possesses a double Doujutsu as well as Susano'o; only implying that Madara's Mokuton bunshin would be superior to Hashirama's. Again, the amount of Mokuton producible depends on the users chakra pools; Madara's is infinite, what of Hashirama? As for the Shinra-tensei argument, I'm referring to 'chou' shinra-tensei which was easily able to destroy konoha [a small scale one is able to clear a forest]. Now, after Nagato destroyed Konoha he had to rest due to his depleted chakra pools; with infinite chakra Madara should be able to spam them, do you really think Mokuton defenses would stand a chance against pressures at that scale? Hashirama countering his own techniques doesn't secure victory. Madara doesn't need to 'practice' with the Doujutsu as the Rin'negan grants the user all it's ability once they wield the eyes and is confirmed by the fact that Nagato even at a very young age and prior to learning basic Ninjutsu had access to the paths. 25 Shin-shuusenju would be confronted by Madara's 25 Rin'negan wielding bunshin: Same discussion. From what's been portrayed thus far, Hashirama isn't besting Madara in his Edo Tensei state alone, as he has both a perfect reflection both the body and Doujutsu of the Rikudo himself who was proclaimed a God.

Really simple concept to understand:

Rin'nengan abilities + EMS Abilities + Mokuton > Mokuton ​

Well it seems that so far, Mokuton is already > Madara + Kyuubi. SO what's the difference now? Rinnegan? Countered already.

CT's distance? Have you seen the size of 1K Hands? It'll reach it.

I'm not saying Hashirama is Itachi but Hashirama isn't stupid. Nagato destroyed Konoha yes. But he didn't kill everyone there, because? Tsunade was healing them. Mokuton for defence and he can heal all the damage after.

But I can see I wont get through so we'll just have to see.

 

[Erza Scarlet]

While I dislike arguing I'll just ask...:yayy: Hashirama has shown not to make as many clones as Madara, so wouldn't it mean he cannot because he has shown not? Also a lot of your counters are just conjectures, I'm a Madara fan no doubt, but I won't argue him better than anyone else. Also is it not a fact that Edo Hashirama << Hashirama? While*Madara <<< Edo Madara? Imho opinion Madara is superior atm, but I feel plot, or some sporadic Jutsu from Hashirama will beat him. Imo as it stands Madara should be able to beat Hashirama 9/10 as of current. No disrespect intended in any such way.:bye:

So you're saying Hashirama can't make as many clones as Madara, Mokuton clones? The thing Hashirama is the best at? I guarantee Hashirama can make as much clones as Madara. Also no Hashirama < Edo Hashirama because of the infinite chakra and undying body, in the matters of damage yes normal Hashirama is better as his body is at 100% power.

 

[RikudouMadara]

So you're saying Hashirama can't make as many clones as Madara, Mokuton clones? The thing Hashirama is the best at? I guarantee Hashirama can make as much clones as Madara. Also no Hashirama < Edo Hashirama because of the infinite chakra and undying body, in the matters of damage yes normal Hashirama is better as his body is at 100% power.

Well...yes I'm saying Hashirama can't make as many because he hasn't shown to do so. From my understanding on Naruto base if you show not, you can not. I believe he can but we can't assume and be as intrepid to state it as fact if someone has not been shown to, or said to is all I'm saying. No disrespect....but your comparisons on Edo Hashirama, and Hashirama are also incorrect...the technicalities you mention are all opinionated, no? Just asking, but has it been revealed that what you say is fact? Atm I believe all we know is that Edo Hashirama is inferior to Hashirama as it has been said. Nao, the minuscule technicalities have yet to be exhumed, no? Im not trying to addle, or disrespect you I'm just saying. Plz don't be upset.

 

[NarutoSamaKama]

Hashirama will not beat Madara alone now. The fact he now possess Rinnegan, all his wood Ninjutsu, infinite chakra, and regen(being a edo).