Hashirama and "Prime" Hiruzen. Shedding light on both fandoms

[SuperSayin]

??? All the edos did was offensive rushdown and two technigues and Hiruzen couldnt handle that. He had to kill himself to stop them.

It doesn't really sound like your neutral to me haha

 

[Vandenre1ch]

mh? he held his own fine against their techniques haha did you even watch it? and you should've read my other posts before that last statement

Yes Ive seen it. If Hashirama used flower tree world and Tobirama used more water and S/T techs, Old Hiruzen would be beaten before he could summon Enma.

 

[SuperSayin]

@MickNerks, my quote absolutely failed so I'm going to do it like this.

First of all. Secret family techniques are limited to only their mastery and usage. Please, are you trying to tell me that Hiruzen has bugs all over his body? Or has a pet who can transform into him? Or can use expansion jutsu. You made the mistake of thinking these are everyday, normal jutsu. These jutsu do not require elements, meaning his "mastery" over the elements is rendered useless. And no, Kakashi and Nagato can not use those jutsu, where did you get that from?...

The thing about Hiruzen fans is that they cling on to baseless hype. He has shown nothing which could support his superiority over the first. I'm sorry but, flower tree world solos. And fine, let's say for arguments sake he was able to use every jutsu in the leaf, what use does this have? Hashirama is able to create a bloody forest. Hiruzen does not have techniques which could par this. He is heavily outmatched.

Let's look at their hype for a minute shall we?

- Madara scolds the five kage countless times, claiming that compared to the first, they're nothing. And remember, Madara is one of, if the most arrogant characters in the manga. I know for a fact that he is able to obliterate Hashirama now but why does he continue to praise him? Even claiming he's the only one that could stop him?

- Kabuto stated his power, like SO6P was considered a fairytale... Are you kidding me? A fairy tale. Iruka had absolutely no knowledge on the first and the rumour that his power was a fairy tale could be one of the primary reasons why Hiruzen is praised so highly. It's a new generation man, no one from Hashirama's generation is still alive. Just Hiruzen.

- Madara stated his healing abilities were unparalleled. Now imagine Tsunade's immense prowess in medical nin... Now imagine someone surpassing that. Boss.

- Feats (something Hiruzen doesn't have): Defeats Madara and Kurama, had five Bijuu's and led the Senju clan to become the most feared and respected clan.

Hiruzen:

- Called the professor for mastering every jutsu in the leaf
- Revered to as the god of shinobi
- His prime was considered to be much stronger than his old self.

In terms of hype, I'd say they're equal, or Hiruzen takes it. But that's just that, hype. You can't prove Hiruzen's prime to be anything more than more chakra and mobility, and I can't prove he couldn't use all those techniques. But it's obvious, Hashirama's feats displayed would take out Hiruzen. The Konoha jutsu can't phase him. It would also help if he had some feats...

If this post was directed to me in any sort of way i would just like to say, i am not a hiruzen fanboy. I clearly stated im not on anyone's side, and saying hiruzen beats hashi or hashi beats hiruzen is ridiculous. BECAUSE madara has shown us these feats and not hashi, while that is understandable BUT maybe hashi has draw backs to using flower tree or the wood dragon... maybe it takes a huge amount of chakra.. we are not sure. However the same goes for hiruzen, we have not seen much of him and absolutely none of his prime besides talking, so it is stupid to assume who would beat who.

 

[jorgelius]

danzo and hiruzen once had huge battle over hokage's title that's clear to all, while hiruzen aged danzo did everything keep his former strenght intact so is fare to say hiruzen in his prime was same scale than danzo in his old age with his all power-ups.. hiruzen was at one point strongest ninja in konoha... so i gave him praise he deserves but comparing him to hashirama is just playing stupid, manga has shown us that much

 

[Vandenre1ch]

It doesn't really sound like your neutral to me haha

Thats because theres alot more information and misconceptions concerning Hiruzen than Hashirama. So in order to balance it and be neutral(at the same time get the point across), Hiruzen gets alot more "degration" than Hashirama.

 

[SuperSayin]

Yes Ive seen it. If Hashirama used flower tree world and Tobirama used more water and S/T techs, Old Hiruzen would be beaten before he could summon Enma.

While your hashi statement is true, the tobi and his S/T is a maybe. We've never seen it, i would love to see his S/T but he has not shown it once and maybe hiruzen has counter's for it, considering his knowledge of jutsu.. im not sure and whats with "If" we cannot say that because it did not happen, this is all speculation.

 

[thegame]

Your first part is "OK", Hiruzen did fail in taking out Orochimaru, but he took out his weapons. I don't know, why you say they out last him in tajutsu. Hiruzen was able to sniff them out in the darkness, and when he grabbed them (even with clones), he had strength enough to keep them from performing hand seals, thus Hiruzen > Hashirama in terms of brute arm strength. At least going by that logic, and that is as an old man. Perhaps some special grabbing technique, or edo tensei just have less strength, I don't know, but if Hiru in any possible way could escape his grap, his edo tensei command, would have forced him to do so.

Seriously dude, if real Hashirama had his leg blown off, you just assume he would heal it. All Madara said is that he could perform healing jutsu without performing seals. That doesn't put him on Tsunades level. Beside if a leg is directly blown off, not even tsunade can regenerate it, perhaps detaching it, but really that is quite a bad situation in a fight.

Hashirama is just as much hype as Hiruzen. It's likely he had some amazing mokuton ninjutsu, but thinking he can do, what Madara is doing now, is a fools thought. Also Edo Hashirama didn't wear his necklace. A necklace said to be extremely powerful and responding to Hashiramas powers. It was the main reason, why he became hokage, at least according to Yamato:

Spoiler

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This explains, how Hashirama easily defeated and bound the kuybi, when he fought Madara.

Surely I don't disagree that Hashirama > Hiruzen, but making conclusions on prime hiruzen is just fools play. It can't be done. We have no idea about his entire arsenal of jutsu, and given he knew the most of any shinobi, he is probably the most useful shinobi to be teamed with.

Idiots always compare 1 vs 1, but this is not, hot the shinobi world works. This is also why byakugan is superior to sharingan. In a war or a team of 4 just, byakugan has much more feats suited for tracking and other important things.

The same can be said for Hiruzen, if the man knows almost every jutsu, there isn't much, which can surprise him. And surely nobody in leaf has more experience than him. Hokage during 3 great wars, and in the end protecting the leaf from Orochimaru. You may say he failed, but he did force Oro to withdraw. So technically, he accomplished his goal as hokage.

 

[Ace of the fire fist]

If this post was directed to me in any sort of way i would just like to say, i am not a hiruzen fanboy. I clearly stated im not on anyone's side, and saying hiruzen beats hashi or hashi beats hiruzen is ridiculous. BECAUSE madara has shown us these feats and not hashi, while that is understandable BUT maybe hashi has draw backs to using flower tree or the wood dragon... maybe it takes a huge amount of chakra.. we are not sure. However the same goes for hiruzen, we have not seen much of him and absolutely none of his prime besides talking, so it is stupid to assume who would beat who.

Madara showed us these feats... and not Hashi? And do you think Madara invented those techniques? They're Hashirama's jutsu man... just like how Wood release is HIS KKG. At least we have someone showing us what Hashirama is capable of. We've seen absolutely nothing on Hiruzen's prime so his hyperbole hype apparently > everyone.

If someone were to come and demonstrate Hiruzens techs, then that'd be a different story.

 

[SuperSayin]

Thats because theres alot more information and misconceptions concerning Hiruzen than Hashirama. So in order to balance it and be neutral(at the same time get the point across), Hiruzen gets alot more "degration" than Hashirama.

Well for future reference if you are going to be fair when comparing 2 characters you should word it differently. Saying stuff like "??? All the edos did was offensive rushdown and two technigues and Hiruzen couldnt handle that." because ppl will use it against you, like i just did haha

 

[Vandenre1ch]

Well for future reference if you are going to be fair when comparing 2 characters you should word it differently. Saying stuff like "??? All the edos did was offensive rushdown and two technigues and Hiruzen couldnt handle that." because ppl will use it against you, like i just did haha

I know and thats the tricky part. Theres just so much going against Hiruzen and hardly none for Hashirama that it seems very one-sided.

 

[SuperSayin]

Your first part is "OK", Hiruzen did fail in taking out Orochimaru, but he took out his weapons. I don't know, why you say they out last him in tajutsu. Hiruzen was able to sniff them out in the darkness, and when he grabbed them (even with clones), he had strength enough to keep them from performing hand seals, thus Hiruzen > Hashirama in terms of brute arm strength. At least going by that logic, and that is as an old man. Perhaps some special grabbing technique, or edo tensei just have less strength, I don't know, but if Hiru in any possible way could escape his grap, his edo tensei command, would have forced him to do so.

Seriously dude, if real Hashirama had his leg blown off, you just assume he would heal it. All Madara said is that he could perform healing jutsu without performing seals. That doesn't put him on Tsunades level. Beside if a leg is directly blown off, not even tsunade can regenerate it, perhaps detaching it, but really that is quite a bad situation in a fight.

Hashirama is just as much hype as Hiruzen. It's likely he had some amazing mokuton ninjutsu, but thinking he can do, what Madara is doing now, is a fools thought. Also Edo Hashirama didn't wear his necklace. A necklace said to be extremely powerful and responding to Hashiramas powers. It was the main reason, why he became hokage, at least according to Yamato:

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

This explains, how Hashirama easily defeated and bound the kuybi, when he fought Madara.

Surely I don't disagree that Hashirama > Hiruzen, but making conclusions on prime hiruzen is just fools play. It can't be done. We have no idea about his entire arsenal of jutsu, and given he knew the most of any shinobi, he is probably the most useful shinobi to be teamed with.

Idiots always compare 1 vs 1, but this is not, hot the shinobi world works. This is also why byakugan is superior to sharingan. In a war or a team of 4 just, byakugan has much more feats suited for tracking and other important things.

The same can be said for Hiruzen, if the man knows almost every jutsu, there isn't much, which can surprise him. And surely nobody in leaf has more experience than him. Hokage during 3 great wars, and in the end protecting the leaf from Orochimaru. You may say he failed, but he did force Oro to withdraw. So technically, he accomplished his goal as hokage.

THANK YOU, finally a level headed person.

 

[SuperSayin]

I know and thats the tricky part. Theres just so much going against Hiruzen and hardly none for Hashirama that it seems very one-sided.

yah ik what you mean, i'm trying my best to be neutral but im defending hiruzen completely haha. The point is we dunno who would win, lets just leave it at that.

 

[jorgelius]

if we compare those two, heh hiruzen cannot kill him, in his prime he might known great deal of jutsu and was genius... but hashirama was fight hiruzen and danzo together (just adding something making this even worth explaining) it's not much those two can do, i believe hashirama's mokuton was so special he was kinda wood himself any part of his body could easily reform like zetsu do,

danzo have ten sharingan but hashiramas mokuton has in past overpowered even greatest of doujutsu user, madara against that man hashi needed be serious coz madara could _kill_ hashi, but hiru and danzo have nothing that level of attack.

hiruzen shoot jutsu's while danzo take all hits but even that case pollen of flower three world stop both, hashi's chakra or body is epitome of perfect lineage ..

 

[SuperSayin]

Madara showed us these feats... and not Hashi? And do you think Madara invented those techniques? They're Hashirama's jutsu man... just like how Wood release is HIS KKG. At least we have someone showing us what Hashirama is capable of. We've seen absolutely nothing on Hiruzen's prime so his hyperbole hype apparently > everyone.

If someone were to come and demonstrate Hiruzens techs, then that'd be a different story.

haha i think you have misread my post, i said hashi might have drawbacks to using such powerful techniques in one fight. I have never said he was incapable of those techniques, i just meant he might have drawbacks. Plus madara is an edo and his already powerful uchiha powers + the power of the senju makes his power equal or close to the sage of six paths, a massive boost of chakra and power.

 

[thegame]

Madara showed us these feats... and not Hashi? And do you think Madara invented those techniques? They're Hashirama's jutsu man... just like how Wood release is HIS KKG. At least we have someone showing us what Hashirama is capable of. We've seen absolutely nothing on Hiruzen's prime so his hyperbole hype apparently > everyone.

If someone were to come and demonstrate Hiruzens techs, then that'd be a different story.

Still this is edo Madara we are talking about. 1st of all, he has Hashis DNA, which combined with Uchiha, gives insane powers. Hashis DNA alone gives scrap.

AND he is in edo tensei, using jutsu in edo tensei apparently you can just deplete your total amount of chakra in every jutsu, creating a jutsu on a huge scale.
So Hashirama MAYBE can use the same jutsu on same scale, but it will surely tare his chakra down, and he can't do it as many times as edo Madara, but this misconception is made over and over. If Naruto can defend against one of his largest scale mokuton jutsu, then where does that put him?

 

[Ace of the fire fist]

Still this is edo Madara we are talking about. 1st of all, he has Hashis DNA, which combined with Uchiha, gives insane powers. Hashis DNA alone gives scrap.

AND he is in edo tensei, using jutsu in edo tensei apparently you can just deplete your total amount of chakra in every jutsu, creating a jutsu on a huge scale.
So Hashirama MAYBE can use the same jutsu on same scale, but it will surely tare his chakra down, and he can't do it as many times as edo Madara, but this misconception is made over and over. If Naruto can defend against one of his largest scale mokuton jutsu, then where does that put him?

You shouldn't compare Naruto to Hashirama.

Hashirama would be able to use it to the same scale as edo Madara but obviously it'll take a lot of chakra from him. But that's it really takes. Besides, having the sage's body gifts you with immense chakra reserves.

 

[jorgelius]

Still this is edo Madara we are talking about. 1st of all, he has Hashis DNA, which combined with Uchiha, gives insane powers. Hashis DNA alone gives scrap.

AND he is in edo tensei, using jutsu in edo tensei apparently you can just deplete your total amount of chakra in every jutsu, creating a jutsu on a huge scale.
So Hashirama MAYBE can use the same jutsu on same scale, but it will surely tare his chakra down, and he can't do it as many times as edo Madara, but this misconception is made over and over. If Naruto can defend against one of his largest scale mokuton jutsu, then where does that put him?

hiruzen wasn't host and would have no chance to control kyubi so not sure what your point was, + thanks guy hirudora mokuton dragon effect loosened, so your point is invalid everyway, and about scale and stamina he overpowered kyuubi (full might) and madara, other have eyes of true power of elder son and other endless amount of chakra so pretty safe to assume he can keep scale of his jutsus insanely strong pretty long time..

 

[Vandenre1ch]

Hiruzen accomplished his GOAL in defending the village yes. What im referring to is the overall battle. Both Hiruzen and Hashirama has some unknown things about them but Hiruzen fans use that part 1 fight as an example to give him hype while Hashirama fans just bluntly say Hashirama>Hiruzen with no real explanation. Thats what Im generally trying to do. Analyze the Hiruzen-Oro fight and give a intelligent reason why Hashirama MAY BE better than Hiruzen. Hiruzen couldnt keep up with the two Edos OVERALL and was forced to commit suicide but that gives speculation and wonder to the strength of Prime Hiruzen and the real Hashirama Senju.

 

[Bijuu13]

He never mentioned anything of Hiruzen in his prime? Why is that? Oh yeah, we haven't seen prime Hiruzen do jack shit and people assume he's almighty. Not only is Hashiramas' hype on par with Hiruzens' but the feats Madara is currently showcasing absolutely obliterates anything Hiruzen has ever showed us.

this
And the whole thread is 100% unbiased and true.

 

[Bijuu13]

Still this is edo Madara we are talking about. 1st of all, he has Hashis DNA, which combined with Uchiha, gives insane powers. Hashis DNA alone gives scrap.

AND he is in edo tensei, using jutsu in edo tensei apparently you can just deplete your total amount of chakra in every jutsu, creating a jutsu on a huge scale.
So Hashirama MAYBE can use the same jutsu on same scale, but it will surely tare his chakra down, and he can't do it as many times as edo Madara, but this misconception is made over and over. If Naruto can defend against one of his largest scale mokuton jutsu, then where does that put him?

Right but wrong at the same time. He wouldnt have unlimited chakra or powerful jutsu, but Hashirama CAN use it at that scale considering the fact that Madara states him and the 1st would change the landscapes completely .