The 1st and 2nd were fighting at full strength against the 3rd. This is stated when Oro imbedded those seals into their heads to make them mindless killing machines. What happened is kishi retconned the "power levels" in shippuden and decided to make the 1st be insanely more powerful then he was when originally shown to us. I don't see why this is such an issue or complicated to fans to understand.
Hashirama and "Prime" Hiruzen. Shedding light on both fandoms
- Thread starter Vandenre1ch
- Start date
lucian011707
Member
Stop bringing up madara and saying they didnt use all their techniques. do you people not understand these techniques wasnt even created by kishi at that time. And lets all be smart here if you had the ability to use flower world during that fight with hiruzen would you have used it. To all the idiots that would have used it, it would have not only worked on Hiruzen, but would have also taken out Oro and the 2nd to. Just because you have a tech doesnt mean you use it. Besides its just pollen in the air that can make an opponent unconscious. Will power can fight it off and destroying the source can to. Last time i checked fire burns wood. so for those saying hiruzen couldnt stop flower world, there is how it can be stopped and just so happens he is a master of fire jutsu.
DeadManWonderLand
Active member
It wasn't a fairy tale madara said most thought it was a fairy tale because how ridiculously strong he is.Not to mention the fact he said only hashi can beat me.I don't know why its that hard to grasp esp when it was already stated in the manga itself.
lucian011707
Member
Lol thats funny you mention why its so hard to grasp when it was already stated in the manga. The manga already stated that Hiruzen was the strongest hokage ever. So why dont you believe that since it is in the manga too???
SuperSayin
Member
If you read previous post's, you would have seen we have already talked about this.
SuperSayin
Member
PPL keep on bringing up the same shit, if they just read the previous post's they would've have seen all this has been covered. Example DeadManWonderLand's post "It wasn't a fairy tale madara said most thought it was a fairy tale because how ridiculously strong he is.Not to mention the fact he said only hashi can beat me.I don't know why its that hard to grasp esp when it was already stated in the manga itself." we have already covered this, and have not denied this statement. Jeez, the lvl of idiocy is ASTOUNDING.
Goddess Leone
Active member
Seriously y does Hiruzen have so many d*ck riders? He's a fodder, but fanboys don't wanna see the truths I'm just stating the oblivious. Hashi>Hiruzen no diff
Vandenre1ch
Active member
Hashi>Hiruzen mid-high dif.
Hiruzens fans are misunderstanding the manga
Hashirama are just...saying Hashi>Hiruzen with no real explanation
UnrealSoul
Active member
Lol... it's funny that both character's are praised through pure hype. Let me shed a little light on something for you guys....
The only reason you guys are **** riding hashi is because of what kabuto and madara said. You purely go by what Edo Madara DID with hashi's power. Not what hashi did with his own power. The fact is Madara and Hashi fought plenty of times and through each time Madara either won or hashi won. VOTE was just a major battle in which Madara lost and hashi barely alive. So please you don't really have any showing of Hashirama in his prime using his techniques so please stfu.
The only reason you guys **** ride hiruzen is because of what iruka and oro said. Yes he did beat edo hashi and tobimara but they were being controlled.As you fanboys can clearly see that Madara at his own will is unbeatable. Hiruzen only got lucky because both of them were being controlled and only able to use moves Oro thought they had.
All of your hiruzen>hashi, hashi>hiruzen is nothing but opinions and speculations. Both parties of fanboys are entirely retarded and go through the same debates every damn week. The only reason we see more Hashi>Hiruzen is because he has more fanboys.
Now let me tell you the truth in narutoverse.
In the narutoverse each generation surpasses the other.
Their for I can say Hiruzen>Hashi. But that in it's self is just an opinion based on a theme.
The fact of each generation surpassing the other is a major theme in naruto.
Disagree? Check the narutoverse history.
The thing is none of you have proof of Prime Hashi fighting in a real battle and none of you have proof of Prime Hiruzen fighting in a real battle.
So how about you fanboys stfu and go suck your favorite characters ****? Okay? Because both parties are just plain retarded baseing arguments on opinions of other characters, and their very own.
The only reason you guys are **** riding hashi is because of what kabuto and madara said. You purely go by what Edo Madara DID with hashi's power. Not what hashi did with his own power. The fact is Madara and Hashi fought plenty of times and through each time Madara either won or hashi won. VOTE was just a major battle in which Madara lost and hashi barely alive. So please you don't really have any showing of Hashirama in his prime using his techniques so please stfu.
The only reason you guys **** ride hiruzen is because of what iruka and oro said. Yes he did beat edo hashi and tobimara but they were being controlled.As you fanboys can clearly see that Madara at his own will is unbeatable. Hiruzen only got lucky because both of them were being controlled and only able to use moves Oro thought they had.
All of your hiruzen>hashi, hashi>hiruzen is nothing but opinions and speculations. Both parties of fanboys are entirely retarded and go through the same debates every damn week. The only reason we see more Hashi>Hiruzen is because he has more fanboys.
Now let me tell you the truth in narutoverse.
In the narutoverse each generation surpasses the other.
Their for I can say Hiruzen>Hashi. But that in it's self is just an opinion based on a theme.
The fact of each generation surpassing the other is a major theme in naruto.
Disagree? Check the narutoverse history.
The thing is none of you have proof of Prime Hashi fighting in a real battle and none of you have proof of Prime Hiruzen fighting in a real battle.
So how about you fanboys stfu and go suck your favorite characters ****? Okay? Because both parties are just plain retarded baseing arguments on opinions of other characters, and their very own.
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TheGr8Uchiha
Member
It would be nice if I could understand what you are trying to say...? My point is... don't tell me Old Hiruzen is stronger than the 2nd and 1st hokage due to him beating him when they didn't even use what they were well known for.
The man is as gone as old man Hiruzen? Please don't contradict yourself, he's relevant in the sense that people are going for his DNA... if you think he is as gone as old man Hiruzen I don't know what manga you are reading.
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Cursed Prince
Active member
Kakarot Uzimaki
Member
I completely agree, senju is obviously stronger bur by little. Hiru is 69 so literaly oro as kingbreaker and a suoer villian in story is stopped if he fights oro at 59... @59 hes stronger than sasuke with ems or naruto sm, only ppl in story stronger than him is senju,minato,maybe madara w/o ems
Canon Hiruzen < Hashirama techs we've seen.
The 2 characters, Prime Hiruzen and Hashirama, are never seen so it's impossible to compare 2 things based off other's words, especially with such high praises from other elite. I think Hashi would eventually overwhelm Prime Hiruzen. I'd imagine Prime Hiruzen would be a force to be reckon with though, he showed more than enough in my opinion against 3 immortals basically, I'd like to see anyone else go up against that and last as long as he did.
The 2 characters, Prime Hiruzen and Hashirama, are never seen so it's impossible to compare 2 things based off other's words, especially with such high praises from other elite. I think Hashi would eventually overwhelm Prime Hiruzen. I'd imagine Prime Hiruzen would be a force to be reckon with though, he showed more than enough in my opinion against 3 immortals basically, I'd like to see anyone else go up against that and last as long as he did.
ItachiStyle
Active member
I joined to post about this, because I feel like the side which uses basic principles of logic is not represented as well as it could be.
Hashirama is clearly stronger than Hirzen ever was
A sensible and consistent application of the evidence tells us Hashirama was clearly stronger than Hirzen. Now of course, anything could be wrong. For all we know there was a hidden leaf black ops ninja who we were never told about, who kept his true power hidden, and was actually stronger than the Sage of the 6 paths... but that's not how logic works. You don't imagine something that could be possible, you go off the evidence. Let's look at the evidence.
Evidence for Hirzen
- Some hyperbolic remarks in the manga, these being; a) that he was "said to be" the strongest ho/kage, and b) the claim he "was said to" "know all jutsu in the leaf". These 2 bits of evidence are extremely poor. The first remark is hyperbolic, and in the manga we've seen no end of remarks like this that were subsequently proven to be hyperbole. Remember how we were told Haku's jutsu had "never been stopped", or how "there's no stopping" Oro's soul transfer jutsu? You know, right before both were stopped. There are dozens of examples of this sort of hyperbole in the comic, which is why people don't go off hyperbole, they go off feats. Comic books have this problem all the time, which is why the 10 eyed man isn't actually the "most dangerous man in the world" as Batman comics hyperbolically state. Also consider the source here. This isn't a comment we're being given by the narrator, or by someone with credibility. These 2 remarks are from Iruka, some no name ninja's, and Oro is mocking that he's able to beat "you who were said to know all jutsu in the leaf". You act like the Sage of the 6 paths declared it to be so, and carved it on a mountain of truths.
As for "knowing all jutsu", he clearly doesn't know how to perform them, and if he does he was really dumb not to use them in a fight to the death with Oro. Maybe he knows of them, but it's far too much of a stretch to grant him every jutsu in the leaf with no evidence off such a flimsy remark as "he was said to" know them all (the Manga is full of these sorts of patently false remarks, just like Haku’s jutsu being unstoppable). We’re even explicitly told later that affinity with all 5 elements is impossible without the rinnegan. So at best, this reputation remark is a reference to generic jutsu… and as someone else said, if you take away bloodline abilities and elemental jutsu, does that even leave much in the way of jutsu that matter? Not really.
- Hirzen scored high in the databooks
There is no reason for us to treat the databooks seriously. They’re not written by the author, and are full of obviously ridiculous material. Ameratsu is not “as hot as the sun”, and Naruto isn’t dragonball Z, where power levels mean something. For heaven’s sake, the databook gives Oro the same Genjutsu score as Itachi (a 5), which is patently ridiculous. Nobody should be invoking the databook as evidence of anything, no more than non-cannon star wars material, or a bunch of fanfic really. The scores in the databook do not represent characters actual abilities (Itachi for instance owns Oro every which way on Genjutsu, yet has an equal score… ridiculous).
- Hirzen “beat” Oro and the 2 edo Hokages.
Oro says very clearly that the 2 hokages are toying with him, and that’s evident from reading the manga fight (remember, the anime doesn’t count), where the hokage spend most of the fight standing around and letting Oro talk, and when Oro prompts them they do a few jutsu, but basically they just stand there. There’s very little reason to believe these guys are going all out, and given that a) they’re fighting in a confined area that massively disadvantages them, and b) what we see off Hashirama’s power later, it’s pretty clear we can’t take the fight at face value.
I won’t use the invented logic of “Oro hadn’t perfected Edo Tensei”, we have no indication that means they weren’t at full strength, but they clearly aren’t being made to go all out, because Oro thought there was no way he could lose, partly because he didn’t know about the reaper death seal, which allowed Hirzen to take him by surprise and stop the fight before Oro got serious. Remember that your ability to control your own body is important to utilising your proper strength, the Hokage being mindless robots for Oro to control prevents them using the fighting genius they normally possess. Maybe the 2 Hokage would have gotten rid of the explosive tags if they could control their own movements, but Oro’s tags didn’t require them to because he knew that explosive tags couldn’t hurt them. Remember, sometimes the author has illogical things happen, then retrospectively explains them. Like when Madara “let” Onoki blast some of his armour off, just so we could see the 1st Hokage’s face.
This brings me to the next point, which a lot of people have flagged. The author changes his mind. Maybe back in volume 17 Kishi thought of Hirzen as the strongest (or 2nd strongest) Hokage ever… but it’s very obvious at this point that view has been retconned. Now we don’t strictly need to use this logic, because the above arguments I addressed don’t really give much support to the idea Hirzen is that great, but certainly it’s fair for Hirzen fans to feel like once upon a time Kishi intended for Hirzen to be one of the best Shinobi of all time. What that shouldn’t blind them to is that there’s pretty much no good evidence left to suggest he was, as we’ve gotten more and more evidence of stronger and stronger shinobi as the manga went (some who died a long time ago, some who are alive right now). I also feel like old age is a really crap excuse for Hirzen… sure, I can buy he was weaker, but Onoki (who is far older) is doing stuff that makes Hirzen look pitiful, such as carrying islands and meteors, atomising large areas, summoning giant stone golems bigger than Hirzen’s earth wall, etc. Based off feats, Hirzen probably isn’t in the top 20 shinobi, and even that’s charitable. I’m sure he had a kage level strength, much like Tsunade who gets unfairly criticized, and we should remember that Itachi and Minato show us power doesn’t require scale or flashiness. You can have relatively small and simple techniques and be awesome. But we can’t just look at some hyperbole and a fight where nobody was going all out (under special conditions) and then say “yeh, Hirzen MUST have been the best… some randoms said so”.
Evidence for Hashirama
There’s so much, I feel like there’s not a lot of point getting into it all. We’re told, balls out, that Hashi beat EMS Madara and the 9 tails fox. Then we see a double page picture of the fight, which seems to tell us that “yes, it was just him v.s the 2 of them with no help” (something we also see in that animated scene of their fight, though I think we shouldn’t give anime any weight really), and then we see Madara resurrected and are shown he’s even more awesome than we thought, and he apparently still respects and fears Hashirama (something evidenced from flashbacks too, where he’s apparently fought the dude multiple times, and lost, and can’t handle it when people mention his name; “never mention THAT shinobi’s name in my presence again!”… this is right before Madara effortlessly schools Mu and Onoki at the same time, remembering this is Mu and Onoki who have done stuff much more impressive than Hirzen, and Madara only had the EMS at this point, and it's subsequently revealed Madara wasn't even trying in this fight, and when Onoki asks him why he never tried against him and Muu, Madara just asks him if he'd really try against a child, because apparently one of the most powerful Kages ever, along with his master, are children compared to EMS Madara... the same EMS Madara who Hashirama beat WITH the 9 Tailed Fox).
Even without the Rinnegan, or Hashi’s DNA, Madara has techniques like perfect Susanoo, against which the 5 kages are helpless. And Hashirama apparently beat him with it… are you kidding? There’s no way Hirzen could have done any of this… and please remember, Madara wasn’t trying before then in his fight against the kage, so all this “Garra and Naruto nearly beat him” stuff is ridiculous… Madara wasn’t even trying then. Then look at the scale of the techniques Madara uses, which were apparently all Hashirama’s- creating and controlling whole forests (with pollen that makes you fall asleep), healing yourself without seals, having Tsunade like strength, and summoning giant wood dragons? Oh, and Hashi can use his seemingly bottomless chakra to create tonnes of wood clones, which nobody except Madara can differentiate from him, and which seem to have comparable powers to the user themselves. Yeh, good luck smelling out the real Hashirama when the air around you is filled with pollen that puts you to sleep when you inhale it. Did I mention Hashi could, at his peak, summon all the tailed beasts (remember, he controlled all the beasts at one point). Remember, every technique Yamato can do is like a pale shadow of Hashi, and Yamato is himself a pretty impressive Shinobi who summons small mountains and lakes effortlessly… again, it seems absurd Hirzen could have touched someone like this, whose hype is even better, and more decisive than Hirzens. In the 3rds case we’ve got some no name ninja’s saying “he was said” to be X good, while for Hashi we’ve got guys with cred like Madara and Kabuto saying “he was the only one who could beat me”, or “his power was so incredible, it was thought a fairy tale”. This is a guy whose blood is apparently so potent, it can do stuff like let ShiSui’s eye work once a day, instead of once per 10 years… that’s a 3650 fold increase in effectiveness… that’s how powerful a mere portion of his chakra is… indeed, it seems to be able to let Tobi use his MS a ridiculous, abusive number of times, despite the fact that he should have gone blind by this point given his overuse of MS.
All the good evidence tells us we should side with Hashi, while to support Hirzen we have to cherry pick the evidence we like, while closing our eyes to the much better evidence that counteracts it, and ignoring basic principles of logic.
Hashirama is clearly stronger than Hirzen ever was
A sensible and consistent application of the evidence tells us Hashirama was clearly stronger than Hirzen. Now of course, anything could be wrong. For all we know there was a hidden leaf black ops ninja who we were never told about, who kept his true power hidden, and was actually stronger than the Sage of the 6 paths... but that's not how logic works. You don't imagine something that could be possible, you go off the evidence. Let's look at the evidence.
Evidence for Hirzen
- Some hyperbolic remarks in the manga, these being; a) that he was "said to be" the strongest ho/kage, and b) the claim he "was said to" "know all jutsu in the leaf". These 2 bits of evidence are extremely poor. The first remark is hyperbolic, and in the manga we've seen no end of remarks like this that were subsequently proven to be hyperbole. Remember how we were told Haku's jutsu had "never been stopped", or how "there's no stopping" Oro's soul transfer jutsu? You know, right before both were stopped. There are dozens of examples of this sort of hyperbole in the comic, which is why people don't go off hyperbole, they go off feats. Comic books have this problem all the time, which is why the 10 eyed man isn't actually the "most dangerous man in the world" as Batman comics hyperbolically state. Also consider the source here. This isn't a comment we're being given by the narrator, or by someone with credibility. These 2 remarks are from Iruka, some no name ninja's, and Oro is mocking that he's able to beat "you who were said to know all jutsu in the leaf". You act like the Sage of the 6 paths declared it to be so, and carved it on a mountain of truths.
As for "knowing all jutsu", he clearly doesn't know how to perform them, and if he does he was really dumb not to use them in a fight to the death with Oro. Maybe he knows of them, but it's far too much of a stretch to grant him every jutsu in the leaf with no evidence off such a flimsy remark as "he was said to" know them all (the Manga is full of these sorts of patently false remarks, just like Haku’s jutsu being unstoppable). We’re even explicitly told later that affinity with all 5 elements is impossible without the rinnegan. So at best, this reputation remark is a reference to generic jutsu… and as someone else said, if you take away bloodline abilities and elemental jutsu, does that even leave much in the way of jutsu that matter? Not really.
- Hirzen scored high in the databooks
There is no reason for us to treat the databooks seriously. They’re not written by the author, and are full of obviously ridiculous material. Ameratsu is not “as hot as the sun”, and Naruto isn’t dragonball Z, where power levels mean something. For heaven’s sake, the databook gives Oro the same Genjutsu score as Itachi (a 5), which is patently ridiculous. Nobody should be invoking the databook as evidence of anything, no more than non-cannon star wars material, or a bunch of fanfic really. The scores in the databook do not represent characters actual abilities (Itachi for instance owns Oro every which way on Genjutsu, yet has an equal score… ridiculous).
- Hirzen “beat” Oro and the 2 edo Hokages.
Oro says very clearly that the 2 hokages are toying with him, and that’s evident from reading the manga fight (remember, the anime doesn’t count), where the hokage spend most of the fight standing around and letting Oro talk, and when Oro prompts them they do a few jutsu, but basically they just stand there. There’s very little reason to believe these guys are going all out, and given that a) they’re fighting in a confined area that massively disadvantages them, and b) what we see off Hashirama’s power later, it’s pretty clear we can’t take the fight at face value.
I won’t use the invented logic of “Oro hadn’t perfected Edo Tensei”, we have no indication that means they weren’t at full strength, but they clearly aren’t being made to go all out, because Oro thought there was no way he could lose, partly because he didn’t know about the reaper death seal, which allowed Hirzen to take him by surprise and stop the fight before Oro got serious. Remember that your ability to control your own body is important to utilising your proper strength, the Hokage being mindless robots for Oro to control prevents them using the fighting genius they normally possess. Maybe the 2 Hokage would have gotten rid of the explosive tags if they could control their own movements, but Oro’s tags didn’t require them to because he knew that explosive tags couldn’t hurt them. Remember, sometimes the author has illogical things happen, then retrospectively explains them. Like when Madara “let” Onoki blast some of his armour off, just so we could see the 1st Hokage’s face.
This brings me to the next point, which a lot of people have flagged. The author changes his mind. Maybe back in volume 17 Kishi thought of Hirzen as the strongest (or 2nd strongest) Hokage ever… but it’s very obvious at this point that view has been retconned. Now we don’t strictly need to use this logic, because the above arguments I addressed don’t really give much support to the idea Hirzen is that great, but certainly it’s fair for Hirzen fans to feel like once upon a time Kishi intended for Hirzen to be one of the best Shinobi of all time. What that shouldn’t blind them to is that there’s pretty much no good evidence left to suggest he was, as we’ve gotten more and more evidence of stronger and stronger shinobi as the manga went (some who died a long time ago, some who are alive right now). I also feel like old age is a really crap excuse for Hirzen… sure, I can buy he was weaker, but Onoki (who is far older) is doing stuff that makes Hirzen look pitiful, such as carrying islands and meteors, atomising large areas, summoning giant stone golems bigger than Hirzen’s earth wall, etc. Based off feats, Hirzen probably isn’t in the top 20 shinobi, and even that’s charitable. I’m sure he had a kage level strength, much like Tsunade who gets unfairly criticized, and we should remember that Itachi and Minato show us power doesn’t require scale or flashiness. You can have relatively small and simple techniques and be awesome. But we can’t just look at some hyperbole and a fight where nobody was going all out (under special conditions) and then say “yeh, Hirzen MUST have been the best… some randoms said so”.
Evidence for Hashirama
There’s so much, I feel like there’s not a lot of point getting into it all. We’re told, balls out, that Hashi beat EMS Madara and the 9 tails fox. Then we see a double page picture of the fight, which seems to tell us that “yes, it was just him v.s the 2 of them with no help” (something we also see in that animated scene of their fight, though I think we shouldn’t give anime any weight really), and then we see Madara resurrected and are shown he’s even more awesome than we thought, and he apparently still respects and fears Hashirama (something evidenced from flashbacks too, where he’s apparently fought the dude multiple times, and lost, and can’t handle it when people mention his name; “never mention THAT shinobi’s name in my presence again!”… this is right before Madara effortlessly schools Mu and Onoki at the same time, remembering this is Mu and Onoki who have done stuff much more impressive than Hirzen, and Madara only had the EMS at this point, and it's subsequently revealed Madara wasn't even trying in this fight, and when Onoki asks him why he never tried against him and Muu, Madara just asks him if he'd really try against a child, because apparently one of the most powerful Kages ever, along with his master, are children compared to EMS Madara... the same EMS Madara who Hashirama beat WITH the 9 Tailed Fox).
Even without the Rinnegan, or Hashi’s DNA, Madara has techniques like perfect Susanoo, against which the 5 kages are helpless. And Hashirama apparently beat him with it… are you kidding? There’s no way Hirzen could have done any of this… and please remember, Madara wasn’t trying before then in his fight against the kage, so all this “Garra and Naruto nearly beat him” stuff is ridiculous… Madara wasn’t even trying then. Then look at the scale of the techniques Madara uses, which were apparently all Hashirama’s- creating and controlling whole forests (with pollen that makes you fall asleep), healing yourself without seals, having Tsunade like strength, and summoning giant wood dragons? Oh, and Hashi can use his seemingly bottomless chakra to create tonnes of wood clones, which nobody except Madara can differentiate from him, and which seem to have comparable powers to the user themselves. Yeh, good luck smelling out the real Hashirama when the air around you is filled with pollen that puts you to sleep when you inhale it. Did I mention Hashi could, at his peak, summon all the tailed beasts (remember, he controlled all the beasts at one point). Remember, every technique Yamato can do is like a pale shadow of Hashi, and Yamato is himself a pretty impressive Shinobi who summons small mountains and lakes effortlessly… again, it seems absurd Hirzen could have touched someone like this, whose hype is even better, and more decisive than Hirzens. In the 3rds case we’ve got some no name ninja’s saying “he was said” to be X good, while for Hashi we’ve got guys with cred like Madara and Kabuto saying “he was the only one who could beat me”, or “his power was so incredible, it was thought a fairy tale”. This is a guy whose blood is apparently so potent, it can do stuff like let ShiSui’s eye work once a day, instead of once per 10 years… that’s a 3650 fold increase in effectiveness… that’s how powerful a mere portion of his chakra is… indeed, it seems to be able to let Tobi use his MS a ridiculous, abusive number of times, despite the fact that he should have gone blind by this point given his overuse of MS.
All the good evidence tells us we should side with Hashi, while to support Hirzen we have to cherry pick the evidence we like, while closing our eyes to the much better evidence that counteracts it, and ignoring basic principles of logic.
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