Hashirama and "Prime" Hiruzen. Shedding light on both fandoms

[Ace of the fire fist]

exactly, so we can't assume who would beat who and part 1 and part 2 power scaling is completely different if you haven't noticed haha

So even when all Hiruzen showed was a few B rank jutsu, RDS and Enma people try pit him against Hashirama? Who will break his old ass? The fact Madara is showing us these things makes it even more ridiculous to compare such an OP character now, and an old man we've only had hype to big him up.

 

[Vandenre1ch]

Listen to what you are saying.lol You are contradicting yourself.

1. We have never seen hiruzen in his prime, so for anyone to say that he wasnt the strongest shinobi is only speculation.

2. According to manga, in his prime he had immense chakra levels, mastered all jutsu in hidden leaf (excluding kkg's), was considered a genius (proffessor), mastered all forms of shinobi combat (nin, tai, fin, kin, med nin). This also allows us to see the he knew all nature types.

3. Manga directly tells you that he was the strongest amongst the 1st, 2nd, and 4th hokage. And stronger than other kages.


We havent seen anything of hiruzens prime, but we have gotten information that describes his strength in his prime. His hype and prime feats make him a better shinobi than hashirama.

And Hiruzen displayed those feats in his fight with Orochimaru. Old and Prime Hiruzen are the same except the older one has lower strength,stamina and chakra levels. If it was Prime Hiruzen fightning, that only means he would have lasted longer.

i totally agree hiruzen is massively overated

Prime Hiruzen is. Old Hiruzen is pretty underrated being placed in top 30 and all.

yeah old hiruzen couldve of gotten beat but kishi said in one of the databooks that even if he was ten years younger(which is still old) he would of won. Well in my opinion your right that hashirama>prime hiruzen but not by much.

Hashirama vs Prime Hiruzen would be a great fight but like you said, Hashi would win.

I agree 100%.
Let's get rid of the all the misconceptions, hmm? xd

Of course YOU agree.

 

[Kirikoe]

Iruka said that "it was said" that the third was the strongest of them all. Nothing directly solidifies Hiruzen as the strongest hokage.

Mastered all jutsu in the hidden leaf? I never saw shit against Orochimaru. Infact, how good are the every day jutsu? Hiruzen mastered all five natures then did he? Because I thought that was impossible without the Rinnegan. It's Hyperbole.

Excluding KKG and excluding family traits, such as shino's bugs, or the dogs the Inuzuka use. If you exclude all of these things, what jutsu really is there capable of posing a threat to Hashirama?

He was called a genius? So was Neji, Itachi, Sasuke, Orochimaru and Minato. Big whoop.

exactly this... tho i also much point out that iruka said hiruzen was the strongest kage* of his time not hokage meaning that it was said out of the 5 nations kage's he was the strongest among them ...

 

[Ace of the fire fist]

exactly this... tho i also much point out that iruka said hiruzen was the strongest kage* of his time not hokage meaning that it was said out of the 5 nations kage's he was the strongest among them ...

Yeah, Kabuto said that he was the strongest out of the current 5 kage. Meaning A, Mei, Onoki and Gaara's father. And Iruka said: "the third was said to be the strongest of them all". If he's the strongest hokage, then why not just say he was the strongest hokage? Why beat around the bush. It's hyperbole man.

 

[SuperSayin]

no just because hiruzen new of all the leaf's jutsu does not mean he could use them all :| .. another thing... madara states that only hashirama can stand up to him this means that even the 3rd hokage couldnt match up to him ... but watever tho i disagree with hiruzen being the strongest hokage or even top 3 imo the manga is all about match up ...

either way the point is hiruzen died ... orochimaru survived also u cant bring up his prime as we have seen nothing on it and if we go by hype than hashirama > hiruzen its as simple as that

That 3rd hokage match up you just said with madara is odd cause thats like saying gai would beat killer bee cause he beat kisame. Its just that hashi battled madara many times, knew his techniques, fighting style, hashi has plenty of experience fighting sharingan etc.

 

[SuperSayin]

So even when all Hiruzen showed was a few B rank jutsu, RDS and Enma people try pit him against Hashirama? Who will break his old ass? The fact Madara is showing us these things makes it even more ridiculous to compare such an OP character now, and an old man we've only had hype to big him up.

hey man it doesn't matter how powerful a technique is, its how you use it.

 

[SuperSayin]

exactly this... tho i also much point out that iruka said hiruzen was the strongest kage* of his time not hokage meaning that it was said out of the 5 nations kage's he was the strongest among them ...

I'm pretty sure iruka said strongest kage AND hokage, but i could be wrong. Don't feel like digging up old episodes to prove my evidence, got it from narutopedia LOL pretty reliable source to me

 

[Ace of the fire fist]

hey man it doesn't matter how powerful a technique is, its how you use it.

He can try use his little B rank jutsu's all he want. Hashirama creates forests in an instant. BAM!

 

[MickNerks]

Iruka said that "it was said" that the third was the strongest of them all. Nothing directly solidifies Hiruzen as the strongest hokage.

It was also said that hashirama's power was considered a fairy tale, but nothing completely solitifies that either. But when iruka said hiruzen was the strongest hokage hiruzen was standing right their so if he made a statement that wasnt true hiruzen would have called him out on it. I think your main problem is that you are trying to compair a old hiruzen to hiruzen in his prime, but their power levels are COMPLETELY diffrent.

Mastered all jutsu in the hidden leaf? I never saw shit against Orochimaru. Infact, how good are the every day jutsu? Hiruzen mastered all five natures then did he? Because I thought that was impossible without the Rinnegan. It's Hyperbole.

Orochimaru, the databook, and Ebisu stated that he knew all jutsu in the leaf. That not a hyperbole, you just want it to be one.

Hiruzen wouldnt be able to use all the jutsu that he knew because his chakra levels were lower than when he was in his prime. He would have exhausted himself quicker and died. He used jutsu that were nessacary so that he could last and do what was needed to stop orochimaru.

It is not impossible to learn all elements. it is just difficult. Onoki, kakashi, muu, and Mei have all demonstrated mastery over 3 or more elements out of 5, so it is not only restricted to the rinnegan. The rinnegan only makes it easier. Kakashi stated to naruto that it was possible but difficult to learn more than one nature. So it was very possible for hiruzen to master all elements being that he was the professor and god of shinobi.

Excluding KKG and excluding family traits, such as shino's bugs, or the dogs the Inuzuka use. If you exclude all of these things, what jutsu really is there capable of posing a threat to Hashirama?

Nothing states that he isnt allowed to learn secret clan techniques. That manga doesnt say he cant, only hashirama fb's say that to limit hiruzen's power. Kakashi and nagato would be able to learn there techniques and according to manga hiruzen could to.

He was called a genius? So was Neji, Itachi, Sasuke, Orochimaru and Minato. Big whoop.

He wasnt just called a genius. He was called a genius for MASTERING all forms of shinobi combat, something that has not been accomplished by anyone else in the manga including hashirama. And also for his learning all justu that existed in the leaf. This meant that his chakra control was perfect, and he was able to minipulate and mold his chakra on a advanced level.

 

[SuperSayin]

which kinda mean's he was forced to use RDS because nothing else he could use would work ...:| even then RDS is a suicide move and at best all it does is make the battle a draw

Ik, the main reason i pointed it out was because to me it felt like the original poster of this thread was insinuating that the 3rd had nothing else and was desperate. Like he was cornered and i know RDS is a suicide move, and hiruzen lost in terms of last one standing BUT the third's objective was to protect the leaf and get ride of or kill orochimaru. To me i consider it a victory and in a way he did kill orochimaru because sasuke killed oro and the reason sasuke won (he admitted it himself) was cause his arms were sealed.

 

[SuperSayin]

He can try use his little B rank jutsu's all he want. Hashirama creates forests in an instant. BAM!

Also another vital thing and i would give a point to hiruzen, is that with enma he can broke hashirama's wood easily and thats when he was old. HOWEVER im not saying he would beat hashi, but im also not saying he would lose to hashi. We can't say anything cause we haven't seen anything from prime hiruzen or hashi and just because madara could use his techniques to such a high degree without any drawbacks doesn't mean hashi can, and madara is an edo.

 

[MickNerks]

For the Hatters who dont believe im gonna post this up again.

You must be registered for see images

Iruka is giving a lesson to the academy ninja about the previous kages. Hiruzen shows up and iruka says "just in time". The he introudces hiruzen as the third face on the mountain and says that he is the strongest them of all. Which refers to them all on the mountain, because the lesson that day was on the hokage.

Now hiruzens hype says that "IN HIAS PRIME HE WAS THE STONGEST SHINOBI ION HISTORY". This refers to shinobi during his prime and before his prime.

There are ninja that came after his prime that may be stronger than him. I.E Naruto, Kabuto, Edo Madara, Obito

But any shinobi that came before his has been said to not be on his level, DURING HIS PRIME. The problem with most of you is that you are trying to compair a old hiruzen to hiruzen in his prime. They might as well be two diffrent shinobi because even enma stated that there is a huge gap between thier power levels and abilities.

 

[SuperSayin]

It was also said that hashirama's power was considered a fairy tale, but nothing completely solitifies that either. But when iruka said hiruzen was the strongest hokage hiruzen was standing right their so if he made a statement that wasnt true hiruzen would have called him out on it. I think your main problem is that you are trying to compair a old hiruzen to hiruzen in his prime, but their power levels are COMPLETELY diffrent.



Orochimaru, the databook, and Ebisu stated that he knew all jutsu in the leaf. That not a hyperbole, you just want it to be one.

Hiruzen wouldnt be able to use all the jutsu that he knew because his chakra levels were lower than when he was in his prime. He would have exhausted himself quicker and died. He used jutsu that were nessacary so that he could last and do what was needed to stop orochimaru.

It is not impossible to learn all elements. it is just difficult. Onoki, kakashi, muu, and Mei have all demonstrated mastery over 3 or more elements out of 5, so it is not only restricted to the rinnegan. The rinnegan only makes it easier. Kakashi stated to naruto that it was possible but difficult to learn more than one nature. So it was very possible for hiruzen to master all elements being that he was the professor and god of shinobi.



Nothing states that he isnt allowed to learn secret clan techniques. That manga doesnt say he cant, only hashirama fb's say that to limit hiruzen's power. Kakashi and nagato would be able to learn there techniques and according to manga hiruzen could to.



He wasnt just called a genius. He was called a genius for MASTERING all forms of shinobi combat, something that has not been accomplished by anyone else in the manga including hashirama. And also for his learning all justu that existed in the leaf. This meant that his chakra control was perfect, and he was able to minipulate and mold his chakra on a advanced level.

exactly, he only needed a minimum amount of chakra to use his techniques. He could use his chakra very efficiently

 

[Vandenre1ch]

It was also said that hashirama's power was considered a fairy tale, but nothing completely solitifies that either. But when iruka said hiruzen was the strongest hokage hiruzen was standing right their so if he made a statement that wasnt true hiruzen would have called him out on it. I think your main problem is that you are trying to compair a old hiruzen to hiruzen in his prime, but their power levels are COMPLETELY diffrent.



Orochimaru, the databook, and Ebisu stated that he knew all jutsu in the leaf. That not a hyperbole, you just want it to be one.

Hiruzen wouldnt be able to use all the jutsu that he knew because his chakra levels were lower than when he was in his prime. He would have exhausted himself quicker and died. He used jutsu that were nessacary so that he could last and do what was needed to stop orochimaru.

It is not impossible to learn all elements. it is just difficult. Onoki, kakashi, muu, and Mei have all demonstrated mastery over 3 or more elements out of 5, so it is not only restricted to the rinnegan. The rinnegan only makes it easier. Kakashi stated to naruto that it was possible but difficult to learn more than one nature. So it was very possible for hiruzen to master all elements being that he was the professor and god of shinobi.



Nothing states that he isnt allowed to learn secret clan techniques. That manga doesnt say he cant, only hashirama fb's say that to limit hiruzen's power. Kakashi and nagato would be able to learn there techniques and according to manga hiruzen could to.



He wasnt just called a genius. He was called a genius for MASTERING all forms of shinobi combat, something that has not been accomplished by anyone else in the manga including hashirama. And also for his learning all justu that existed in the leaf. This meant that his chakra control was perfect, and he was able to minipulate and mold his chakra on a advanced level.

Hiruzen used a few technigues and had a short taijutsu bout and was gasping for air. The only technigues he showed were fire style, earth style and shriken cloning which were all tanked and rendered useless.

Itachi was called a genius for mastering the sharigan and he'd lose to alot of people. Atleast we seen Itachi back it up but Hiruzen hasnt done anything.

 

[Vandenre1ch]

For the Hatters who dont believe im gonna post this up again.

You must be registered for see images

Iruka is giving a lesson to the academy ninja about the previous kages. Hiruzen shows up and iruka says "just in time". The he introudces hiruzen as the third face on the mountain and says that he is the strongest them of all. Which refers to them all on the mountain, because the lesson that day was on the hokage.

Now hiruzens hype says that "IN HIAS PRIME HE WAS THE STONGEST SHINOBI ION HISTORY". This refers to shinobi during his prime and before his prime.

There are ninja that came after his prime that may be stronger than him. I.E Naruto, Kabuto, Edo Madara, Obito

But any shinobi that came before his has been said to not be on his level, DURING HIS PRIME. The problem with most of you is that you are trying to compair a old hiruzen to hiruzen in his prime. They might as well be two diffrent shinobi because even enma stated that there is a huge gap between thier power levels and abilities.

Yes. Hiruzen was called the strongest because he lived during the "modern era" where people actually witnessed his strength. Hashirama was considered a myth remember? All those who seen his power were dead or not known about.

Ik, the main reason i pointed it out was because to me it felt like the original poster of this thread was insinuating that the 3rd had nothing else and was desperate. Like he was cornered and i know RDS is a suicide move, and hiruzen lost in terms of last one standing BUT the third's objective was to protect the leaf and get ride of or kill orochimaru. To me i consider it a victory and in a way he did kill orochimaru because sasuke killed oro and the reason sasuke won (he admitted it himself) was cause his arms were sealed.

Hiruzen had no choice but to use RDS because he wouldve lost horribly if he didnt. Why would he use a suicide technigue if he could beat them another way?

 

[SuperSayin]

hey man what happened to my other posts?!

 

[SuperSayin]

Yes. Hiruzen was called the strongest because he lived during the "modern era" where people actually witnessed his strength. Hashirama was considered a myth remember? All those who seen his power were dead or not known about.

Hiruzen had no choice but to use RDS because he wouldve lost horribly if he didnt. Why would he use a suicide technigue if he could beat them another way?

haha well anyone would lose horribly to an edo 1st, 2nd and oro, fighting them without sealing them is a waste of time and effort. This next statement of mine is just a theory so don't hold it against me. I think the reason why the third used RDS and not any other sealing technique was because he didn't have enough chakra to use 3 seperate sealing techniques on them, or maybe he wanted to "be" with oro in the belly of the reaper so he can make peace with him or something LOL EITHER WAY his objective was completed, the leaf was saved and oro didn't pose as big of a threat as he previously did

 

[Vandenre1ch]

haha well anyone would lose horribly to an edo 1st, 2nd and oro, fighting them without sealing them is a waste of time and effort. This next statement of mine is just a theory so don't hold it against me. I think the reason why the third used RDS and not any other sealing technique was because he didn't have enough chakra to use 3 seperate sealing techniques on them, or maybe he wanted to "be" with oro in the belly of the reaper so he can make peace with him or something LOL EITHER WAY his objective was completed, the leaf was saved and oro didn't pose as big of a threat as he previously did

??? All the edos did was offensive rushdown and two technigues and Hiruzen couldnt handle that. He had to kill himself to stop them.

 

[SuperSayin]

??? All the edos did was offensive rushdown and two technigues and Hiruzen couldnt handle that. He had to kill himself to stop them.

mh? he held his own fine against their techniques haha did you even watch it? and you should've read my other posts before that last statement

 

[Ace of the fire fist]

@MickNerks, my quote absolutely failed so I'm going to do it like this.

First of all. Secret family techniques are limited to only their mastery and usage. Please, are you trying to tell me that Hiruzen has bugs all over his body? Or has a pet who can transform into him? Or can use expansion jutsu. You made the mistake of thinking these are everyday, normal jutsu. These jutsu do not require elements, meaning his "mastery" over the elements is rendered useless. And no, Kakashi and Nagato can not use those jutsu, where did you get that from?...

The thing about Hiruzen fans is that they cling on to baseless hype. He has shown nothing which could support his superiority over the first. I'm sorry but, flower tree world solos. And fine, let's say for arguments sake he was able to use every jutsu in the leaf, what use does this have? Hashirama is able to create a bloody forest. Hiruzen does not have techniques which could par this. He is heavily outmatched.

Let's look at their hype for a minute shall we?

- Madara scolds the five kage countless times, claiming that compared to the first, they're nothing. And remember, Madara is one of, if the most arrogant characters in the manga. I know for a fact that he is able to obliterate Hashirama now but why does he continue to praise him? Even claiming he's the only one that could stop him?

- Kabuto stated his power, like SO6P was considered a fairytale... Are you kidding me? A fairy tale. Iruka had absolutely no knowledge on the first and the rumour that his power was a fairy tale could be one of the primary reasons why Hiruzen is praised so highly. It's a new generation man, no one from Hashirama's generation is still alive. Just Hiruzen.

- Madara stated his healing abilities were unparalleled. Now imagine Tsunade's immense prowess in medical nin... Now imagine someone surpassing that. Boss.

- Feats (something Hiruzen doesn't have): Defeats Madara and Kurama, had five Bijuu's and led the Senju clan to become the most feared and respected clan.

Hiruzen:

- Called the professor for mastering every jutsu in the leaf
- Revered to as the god of shinobi
- His prime was considered to be much stronger than his old self.

In terms of hype, I'd say they're equal, or Hiruzen takes it. But that's just that, hype. You can't prove Hiruzen's prime to be anything more than more chakra and mobility, and I can't prove he couldn't use all those techniques. But it's obvious, Hashirama's feats displayed would take out Hiruzen. The Konoha jutsu can't phase him. It would also help if he had some feats...