Gadien Sasuke(no sage chakra) VS BSM Minato

[KidGamer65]

I didn't change anything... Your opinion that Sasuke can't use his powers that was shown in the manga without sage chakra, and it's my opinion he can... I'm not going to sit here an argue about opinions because that's just stupid... The manga never stated Sasuke can now use PS chidori, PS Ameno, and Genjutsu along with CT only because he has Sage chakra..

Lmfao. Then this dude unorthodox lied when he told me you changed the conditions. The Manga didn't need to state the bold. If Sasuke has only shown it with his power up, why would you claim he can use it without his power up when there is no evidence to suggest he can? Already said he can use Ameno with PS, already said he can use Genjutsu and CT, but it's obviously not going to have the perks it did when he had Hagoromo's chakra.

Sasuke already has Buff,Strong,potent, cold and powerful chakra.. Sage only makes it more Buff,Strong,potent, cold and powerful.. Example: sasuke use rinnengan genjutsu with sage chakra. He'll probably use about 3% of his chakra and your average shinobi has 1% chance of breaking it... With out sage chakra he use 15% of his chakra and the average shinobi has 10% chance of breaking it.. That's how I look at it.

Sasuke already having strong chakra is irrelevant. Hagoromo's chakra feats are not his feats. It's really as simple as that. The rest below is irrelevant since you are talking about chakra amount, something completely irrelevant to any of his powered up feats.

 

[DHOH]

Lmfao. Then this dude unorthodox lied when he told me you changed the conditions. The Manga didn't need to state the bold. If Sasuke has only shown it with his power up, why would you claim he can use it without his power up when there is no evidence to suggest he can? Already said he can use Ameno with PS, already said he can use Genjutsu and CT, but it's obviously not going to have the perks it did when he had Hagoromo's chakra.



Sasuke already having strong chakra is irrelevant. Hagoromo's chakra feats are not his feats. It's really as simple as that. The rest below is irrelevant since you are talking about chakra amount, something completely irrelevant to any of his powered up feats.

I don't understand why are you agreeing to allow Sasuke use PS Ameno, but not PS chidori? He didn't use either until he got the power up.. Sasuke didn't use any of those jutsu before the power up.. He got run enchant he same time he got the chakra so there's no wY to truly know, that's why I said I'm not going to argue about opinions.

That's like saying Sasuke can't use PS because he didn't use it before he gain Hagoromo's chakra.. But we all know Sasuke had his EMS for two days and it wasn't mastered, and his chakra grew more and strongerin the last and even more in the Gadien.. So his chakra has gotten stronger..

 

[KidGamer65]

I don't understand why are you agreeing to allow Sasuke use PS Ameno, but not PS chidori? He didn't use either until he got the power up.. Sasuke didn't use any of those jutsu before the power up.. He got run enchant he same time he got the chakra so there's no wY to truly know, that's why I said I'm not going to argue about opinions.

Because warping with a construct is nothing new. Using Chidori on PS is. Kakashi could only combine techs with PS after getting Hagoromo's chakra, and he explicitly stated that the chakra was the reason. It's really as simple as this, he didn't show it, so unless there is evidence he can use it, he can't do it w/o said chakra.

That's like saying Sasuke can't use PS because he didn't use it before he gain Hagoromo's chakra..

Terrible example since he did.

But we all know Sasuke had his EMS for two days and it wasn't mastered, and his chakra grew more and strongerin the last and even more in the Gadien.. So his chakra has gotten stronger..

Irrelevant. His chakra getting stronger is completely irrelevant when giving a buffed Sasuke's feats to a not buffed Sasuke.

 

[DHOH]

Because warping with a construct is nothing new. Using Chidori on PS is. Kakashi could only combine techs with PS after getting Hagoromo's chakra, and he explicitly stated that the chakra was the reason. It's really as simple as this, he didn't show it, so unless there is evidence he can use it, he can't do it w/o said chakra.



Terrible example since he did.



Irrelevant. His chakra getting stronger is completely irrelevant when giving a buffed Sasuke's feats to a not buffed Sasuke.

Kakashi example is terrible since he only had one eye.. And Kakashi has low and weak chakra compared to a uchiha who also posses Indra's chakra.

If you are referring to when Sasuke covered kyuubi, it wasn't long before that when he received chakra from Naruto and the Susanoo wasn't stabilize.. In no way shape or form was it perfect.

So Sasuke chakra growing Stronger and more powerful is irrelevant? Please tell me what buff means to you?

 

[LuckyMan]

Sasuke is 17 at the end of Part 2, 19 in the last, and 29 in Gaiden. Where is 32 coming from? The Last is 2 years after the end of the Manga, and Ch 700 is 10 years after the end of the Manga. Bold is false, and an assumption based on irrelevant evidence.

Actually chapter 700 takes place 10 years after VOTE II, not the Last. Naruto and Sasuke are 27 in 700, but in Gaiden they are early 30s. Gaiden takes place several years after 700. Graduation is in 1 week in Gaiden so they're practically Genin already. Salad looked like

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in 700. Then looked like

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in Gaiden. I'd say a good 5 years passed between 700 and Gaiden which would indeed put Naruto and Sasuke at 32-33 years old.

Not that any of that matters anyway because I still don't think Gaiden Sasukes chakra with no Ridoku Power is above Rinnegan Madara. Black Zetsu made sure EMS Madara reached his peak (with no Ridoku Power) and if we take the PS head Sasuke

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for scale, I'd say even EMS Madaras PS is bigger than Gaiden Sasukes (remember, EMS Madara actually reached his peak with no Ridoku Power) because Madara is a speck in his PS diamond and the size of their heads are dramatically different. So Rinnegan Madaras chakra is certainly far above Gaiden Sasukes with no boost from Ridoku.

 

[KidGamer65]

Kakashi example is terrible since he only had one eye.. And Kakashi has low and weak chakra compared to a uchiha who also posses Indra's chakra.

Please tell me how this changes the FACT that Hagoromo's chakra is the only reason he could use combo techs?

-One eye is irrelevant when we aren't even talking about one eye Kakashi. We are talking about DMS Kakashi.
-Low chakra is irrelevant when DMS Kakashi has his chakra+All of Obito's chakra.

If you are referring to when Sasuke covered kyuubi, it wasn't long before that when he received chakra from Naruto and the Susanoo wasn't stabilize.. In no way shape or form was it perfect.

Smh. When will people cut this BS out? That was Perfect Susanoo in it's entirety. Exactly how Madara did it at VoTe, or are you going to tell me that Madara didn't use Perfect Susanoo at VoTE also? Lmfao.

So Sasuke chakra growing Stronger and more powerful is irrelevant? Please tell me what buff means to you?

Yes, it's irrelevant. Because HIS chakra is not what we are talking about. We are talking about HAGOROMO'S Chakra. His chakra getting stronger isn't going to give him the same buffs that a special type of chakra gives him.

Or are you going to tell me that Gaiden Sasuke w/o Hagoromo's chakra=VoTE Sasuke w/ Hagoromo's chakra when it comes to chakra potency? :lol

Actually chapter 700 takes place 10 years after VOTE II, not the Last. Naruto and Sasuke are 27 in 700, but in Gaiden they are early 30s. Gaiden takes place several years after 700. Graduation is in 1 week in Gaiden so they're practically Genin already. Salad looked like

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in 700. Then looked like

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in Gaiden. I'd say a good 5 years passed between 700 and Gaiden which would indeed put Naruto and Sasuke at 32-33 years old.

Not that any of that matters anyway because I still don't think Gaiden Sasukes chakra with no Ridoku Power is above Rinnegan Madara. Black Zetsu made sure EMS Madara reached his peak (with no Ridoku Power) and if we take the PS head Sasuke

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for scale, I'd say even EMS Madaras PS is bigger than Gaiden Sasukes (remember, EMS Madara actually reached his peak with no Ridoku Power) because Madara is a speck in his PS diamond and the size of their heads are dramatically different. So Rinnegan Madaras chakra is certainly far above Gaiden Sasukes with no boost from Ridoku.

Totally forgot that they were small kids in 700. Good point. Agreed with the rest.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

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Seals (印, in, English TV: Hand Signs) are used to perform many ninjutsu, genjutsu, and other secret arts other than taijutsu. The exact amount of chakra necessary to perform a technique is manipulated through hand seals.

Madara used Susanoo to make a seal. I feel like this is evidence enough that chakra can be channeled. Well at least through the hands of Susanoo.

 

[KidGamer65]

^ Chakra inside the body is manipulated using hand seals. Doesn't mean that there is chakra inside said seals as they are being made.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

^ Chakra inside the body is manipulated using hand seals. Doesn't mean that there is chakra inside said seals as they are being made.

Madara used Susanoo hand signs, along with his, to summon that meteor. I dont see why it can't be done with any other ninjutsu that requires hands.

 

[Rιver]

Madara used Susanoo hand signs, along with his, to summon that meteor. I dont see why it can't be done with any other ninjutsu that requires hands.

I am fairly sure it was Bansho Ten'in that requires no handseals...

 

[KidGamer65]

Madara used Susanoo hand signs, along with his, to summon that meteor. I dont see why it can't be done with any other ninjutsu that requires hands.

Because he's not using techniques on Susanoo. He's using Susanoo to amplify techs used on his own.

 

[DHOH]

@kidgamer

We can agree to disagree because I finally figured out our misunderstanding.. You think Hagoromo's chakra is 'special' and I don't... I mean it's special by who it belongs to but at the end of the day it's just chakra.. I think it makes a person stronger faster and more powerful. Something like the kyuubi's chakra, and you think it's more than that.. Good talk.

 

[KidGamer65]

@kidgamer

We can agree to disagree because I finally figured out our misunderstanding.. You think Hagoromo's chakra is 'special' and I don't... I mean it's special by who it belongs to but at the end of the day it's just chakra.. I think it makes a person stronger faster and more powerful. Something like the kyuubi's chakra, and you think it's more than that.. Good talk.

Even if it wasn't special, and it were just chakra, I already addressed why it wouldn't matter. But fine, we can agree to disagree.

 

[Kagustuchi]

Certain chakra are stronger/more potent than others, usually by being closer to Kaguya's chakra. (Ie: Look at all the jumps in power people got because of Kurama's chakra, that's because of how potent it is)

I can go into more detail later when I'm not at work, I can help settle which fanfiction Sasuke this is too.

 

[Unorthodox]

Yeah, it took OP changing it for you to finally have a point, but it's not like it matters anyway.

Already addressed that Chidori PS Sword BS. Adding Raiton isn't giving him the power to cut through jack when
PS Chidori=BM Naruto's regular Bijuu Dama<BSM Minato's regular Bijuu Dama....or it could be PS Chidori=100% Kurama's Bijuu Dama>Minato's regular Bijuu Dama. It depends on the size of Sasuke's PS if he were to lose Hagoromo's chakra. So it'd probably be the latter, but quite a bit stronger since he's stronger than he was as an Adult. Either way, Flash BD is stronger, and the Avatar can take much more than a Chidori in the league of a regular Bijuu Dama.

OP did not change a thing that was you jumping to assumptions that it was not like in the first place.

Blah blah Why would Sasuke Perfect susanoo shrink without the power of Hagoromo? dumb assumption and No Perfect susanoo blade = Bijuu dama Chidori from Perfect susanoo = Bijuu dama you run a chidori stream down his Perfect susanoo blade and it bisects the avatar by its neck because its tails seem to be the durable part of its body and all this holds true compared to a teenage Sasuke who is not even in the same tier as his adult self

So If his Ps managed to damaged the avatar before he rips it apart now proof? is that his chidori from VOTE2 vs last are on completely different tiers and he still was not in his prime from Last we equate that his Perfect susanoo would atleast be twice a strong as it was before. Flash Bijuu dama is dodged or thrown back into Minato's face and its pointless the avatar is not tanking a Perfect susanoo blade with a chidori stream to the face we've seen what a base bijuu dama did to killerbee the power focused on top of a susanoo blade its night night.

That's your baseless assumption and once again, I don't care for it. Rinnegan Genjutsu is a boosted Genjutsu. Why the hell would he get a boosted Genjutsu when the cause of the boost isn't here. It's really that simple.

He retains all his feats just downscaled so your post is irrelevant you have yet to counter Rinnegan genjutsu which can catch multiply opponents at once so him and Kurama becomes Sasuke pets GG and dont give me that he cant genjutsu them if 3 tomoe genjutsu can work on both Rinnegan definitely works

still waiting on the counter to 3 tomoe genjutsu being boosted by Hagoromo's chakra.

 

[ashrafuchiha]

Are you really this stupid? Where is the proof? Where are the speed feats? I already said he can dodge with Ameno, give me proof he can dodge without. And please don't use buffed Sasuke's feats.



When the attack hits him, Minato teleports it as he can warp anything in contact with his chakra. Lmfao. Or he curls up and takes the explosion while Sasuke is still caught in the center. Try again dumbass.





I'm not arguing against him you dumb shit. Lmfao. I'm arguing against you clowns. The only reason I'm still arguing is because you people replied to ME. Not vice versa. If someone wants to counter Waltz, they can go right ahead (Already did in fact).




I did counter it. You just keep crying about how it's not a counter because you don't disagree. BT does not pull instantly, and there are no feats of it pulling so fast that Minato wouldn't be able to react.



Wow. You people don't understand the concept of "BUFFED CHAKRA". Do you? If you guys were this thirsty to give Rinnegan Sasuke his Rikudo feats, you should've just made it Rikudo Sasuke against BSM Minato. Lmfao.

SASUKE KEPT UP WITH A JUUBI JIN i mean obito not madara so this is before he was buffed. what more proof of speed do you want? unless you want to tell me that a FBD is that fast to keep up or even hit Juubito?
Dont even know why we debating this because sasukes PS is tanking the attack regardless of whether it hits him or not and even if it does hit him we have already established that he cannot fire them in a row then during that time period sasuke could simply replenish hes slightly damaged susanoo. Then if minato fires a second one it is dodged by ameno, at this point minato is not using that attack again, he is not stupid enough to keep spamming one move if it does not work twice.

 

[ComplexCity]

I have never seen give as much detail in a debate as Kiff and KG have. I mean every point being addressed line by line with common sense and scans being used how are Sasuke Fapboys still in denial?

 

[Unorthodox]

I have never seen give as much detail in a debate as Kiff and KG have. I mean every point being addressed line by line with common sense and scans being used how are Sasuke Fapboys still in denial?

Definitely an Alt

 

[KidGamer65]

I'm not gonna waste my time replying to you just for it to explode into another Me countering your walls of horseshit argument. The moment you say another thing I've already countered, it's done. You can go fanboy to someone who'll waste their time arguing with you.

OP did not change a thing that was you jumping to assumptions that it was not like in the first place.

Lmfao. You were the dumbass who claimed OP changed it.

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Blah blah Why would Sasuke Perfect susanoo shrink without the power of Hagoromo? dumb assumption and No Perfect susanoo blade = Bijuu dama Chidori from Perfect susanoo = Bijuu dama you run a chidori stream down his Perfect susanoo blade and it bisects the avatar by its neck because its tails seem to be the durable part of its body and all this holds true compared to a teenage Sasuke who is not even in the same tier as his adult self

Because his PS was not as large as Madara's before Hagoromo's chakra. So why would it be the same after? Dumb reply.

Why would PS blade=Bijuu Dama? Naruto was tanking this dude's PS slashes left and right. Why would a Chidori Stream bisect the Avatar when Chidori Stream=/=Chidori when it comes to power? Why are you still replying with the same horseshit I've replied to over and over and over again?

So If his Ps managed to damaged the avatar before he rips it apart now proof? is that his chidori from VOTE2 vs last are on completely different tiers and he still was not in his prime from Last we equate that his Perfect susanoo would atleast be twice a strong as it was before.

That's not proof.

1. There is a Senjutsu difference between Sasuke's PS before and Minato's Avatar now.
2. It being at least 2x stronger doesn't mean it'll run through the Avatar with ease when it couldn't do so to a regular Avatar before let alone a Senjuts Avatar.

Flash Bijuu dama is dodged

Addressed. None of you clowns have given me the speed feats.

or thrown back into Minato's face

Addressed. Madara's PS=Mokujin and Mokujin doesn't have the feats to catch and toss back a Flash BD. But I expect you to cry about the fact that you need real proof.

and its pointless the avatar is not tanking a Perfect susanoo blade with a chidori stream to the face

Not only would Sasuke not be able to get his face w/o him attempting to block with his tails, you literally have no evidence that this blade would bisect him when he canonically tanked the PS blade with his tails. His tails and his Avatar are not different in durability when referring to their durability pound for pound. If his blade can't even scratch one of Naruto's tails, then he isn't bisecting shit. Period.

we've seen what a base bijuu dama did to killerbee the power focused on top of a susanoo blade its night night.

Killer B is not BSM Minato. Lmfao. So why are you even mentioning him here? Shitty ass point.

He retains all his feats just downscaled so your post is irrelevant you have yet to counter Rinnegan genjutsu which can catch multiply opponents at once so him and Kurama becomes Sasuke pets GG and dont give me that he cant genjutsu them if 3 tomoe genjutsu can work on both Rinnegan definitely works

How stupid are you going to get? That is the reason why you can't give him feats from Sasuke, especially when talking about Genjutsu. Why the hell would he be able to catch "multiply opponents at once" when that's a RIKUDO CHAKRA FEAT. Genjutsu used by Sasuke is the same as it always is. Getting a stronger eye doesn't tremendously boost Genjutsu. Only chakra would do that. What the hell are you even mentioning Genjutsu when:

-No one has ever cast Genjutsu on a PJ and his Bijuu.
-PJs break Genjutsu within in a second.

still waiting on the counter to 3 tomoe genjutsu being boosted by Hagoromo's chakra.

3-Tomoe Genjutsu? What eye it came from is irrelevant. Sasuke had his chakra, so it was boosted. Stop giving the feats of Genjutsu on all 9 Bijuu to Sasuke w/o chakra. He gets 2 people at a time, and that has jack shit to do with Bijuu and Perfect Jinchuuriki.

 

[KidGamer65]

SASUKE KEPT UP WITH A JUUBI JIN i mean obito not madara so this is before he was buffed. what more proof of speed do you want? unless you want to tell me that a FBD is that fast to keep up or even hit Juubito?

Can you stop playing the fool? Sasuke didn't keep up with Obito w/ Susanoo's MOVEMENT SPEED. He hit him because he was STRIKING FAST ENOUGH. How does that prove that Sasuke's PS can MOVE FAST ENOUGH TO EVADE FLASH BIJUU DAMA. Do not give me another dumb reply.

Dont even know why we debating this because sasukes PS is tanking the attack regardless of whether it hits him or not and even if it does hit him we have already established that he cannot fire them in a row then during that time period sasuke could simply replenish hes slightly damaged susanoo.

Where is this replenish stuff coming from? Sasuke cannot replenish Susanoo unless he absorbs chakra from an outside source, or unless he puts it down and makes another. Sasuke's PS can't tank Senjutsu Flash BD w/ no damage, and that's why 3-4 of them wreck his Susanoo even if it is equal to Madara's. If it's weaker, then 2-3 wreck it.

Then if minato fires a second one it is dodged by ameno,

And then he gets his ass hit during the cooldown.

at this point minato is not using that attack again, he is not stupid enough to keep spamming one move if it does not work twice.

You sound stupid for saying Minato won't use an attack because "it didn't work". Even though if it hits, it will do damage, and even though the tech being used to dodge can't be spammed while Minato can use Flash BD as long as he has chakra, and he definitely has the chakra for more than 3 of them.