Gaara and Kisame vs Minato and Tobirama

[ARGUS]

Absorb the heat? You mean chakra?

Daikodan requires a water source to use. As soon as the water source is being produced, oil+fire completely evaporates any chance of Daikodan being used.

Where are you getting this fire from???
gamabunta has his oil but neither minato nor tobirama have the katon affinity,
not to mention that GSB can be formed from a mere hand seal, kisame has shown to have been able to produce large suitons without needing a water source anyways, and GSB would just absorb the katon+oil and enlarge

 

[Rιver]

Where are you getting this fire from???
gamabunta has his oil but neither minato nor tobirama have the katon affinity,
not to mention that GSB can be formed from a mere hand seal, kisame has shown to have been able to produce large suitons without needing a water source anyways, and GSB would just absorb the katon+oil and enlarge

Shima has the element of fire.​

@Bold yes I am

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. The water dome is larger than the AoE of the flames, a giant racoon like Ponta was completely dwarfed. Suiton > Katon by elemental superiority so the flames would get extinguished. Furthermore, Kisame can just shoot Daikodan at the flames and oil and the entire attack would be absorbed and Daikodan would end up hitting the toad and draining them of chakra, thus killing them. Kisame also displayed feats which support that he can spit out a dome even larger than the one he used against Bee (he spat out lakes with 30% power; he summoned a thousand sharks without Samehada's chakra).

You're counting on Bunta just using oil by chance? Toads have never spit oil before without being directed to do so by Jiraiya. Also just because the toad has the ability to produce oil does not mean that all sand will be disabled, toads can spit it only in one direction leaving their limbs open to being snagged by sand arms, which drag them down and bury them underground in a sand coffin.

Ponta isn't even near the size of Bunta, so using such is useless. Also, Katon = Suiton, Suiton is only labeled stronger because it can extinguish the flames. However, don't also forget that fire evaporates water. Adding wind makes fire stronger than water.

Kichi has used independently oil.​

Okay, that's fine; but Minato won't be able to even get his kunais that close enough to Gaara. Sand tsunamis or simple sand barriers sweep the kunai away and bury them underground before they get close to Gaara. There's also his sand armour, which allows him to "shed off" a marking if Minato does get the chance to mark him.

Already explained why Minato can't evaporate the dome. The dome moves with Kisame, so he can swim over to his opponents; and him and Gaara can completely change the environment, and eliminate the FTG kunai one by one through their respective methods (Gaara burying them underground with sand, Kisame summoning sharks to swallow them), and through their techniques the two can corral Minato and Tobirama into an advantageous situation (underwater or within a sand coffin) and them having no safe place to teleport to. @Underline - they aren't tagging Kisame before he spits out the dome from 60 meters away. All it takes is a handseal. In fact, the most likely case is that Kisame spits out his water dome and catches them in it before they can mark a location outside of the water dome's AoE.

Or Tobirama uses his Suiton as a medium and transports the entire tsunami elsewhere, while Minato lands a Rasengan, destroying the armor and tagging him simultaenously.

When warping with Hiraishin, it's not necessary to teleport next to the tag. They can teleport above or below the shark. All while they have a moving tag, which works as their advantage. In emergency situations, they can mark a piece of land which sharks can't carry with them.​

Samehada devoured six tails worth of chakra from Killer Bee by touching him once

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. That's a lot of chakra, in case you didn't know. Even touching Kisame once to mark him takes away a significant amount of chakra.

As I said before, a rasengan or a kunai won't affect Kisame. Samehada heals him from the injury with little effort. Kisame can kill him by counterattacking with bones potruding from his body the moment after he gets stabbed or hit with a rasengan.

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If we're talking about Samehada, it only absorbs chakra that is not ambient or that is directly touching it. In this case, Minato and Tobirama are touching Kisame not Samehada.

Kunai decapitates him and kills him. Rasengan is a different story.​

Kisame can merge with Samehada and sense their location immediately. I'm not suggesting Kisame can necessarily react to a FTG slash, what I'm saying is that Kisame will know where they are very soon after they teleport - so they can't hide from him and Gaara.

There's no point in bringing up clones since Gaara and Kisame can make them as well, and in greater numbers. Kisame's water clones can also merge with their copies of Samehada, giving them healing, sensing, and chakra absorption abilities.

Another thing to note, Kisame's sharks can fly. I know this sounds ridiculous but they can move about by being surrounded with a bubble of water

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Which only works in a dome, that can be evaporated. Also, he can't create clones without his normal hands. When fused, he has hands that resemble fish fins. No seals, thus no jutsu.

That doesn't only sound ridiculous, but is also false. It merely jumped off a cliff. If that's what you'd call a flight, then I think I can fly too. With consequences.​

 

[ARGUS]

Shima has the element of fire.​

And how is Minato summoning Ma???

 

[Rιver]

And how is Minato summoning Ma???

Probably because he can summon toads. Or he can use a spacecraft to go and come back from Myōbokuzan with Shima. I'd go with the latter.​

 

[ARGUS]

Probably because he can summon toads. Or he can use a spacecraft to go and come back from Myōbokuzan with Shima. I'd go with the latter.​

ma and pa arent like some normal toads,
and if he goes ''spacecraft'' then thats BFR,

 

[Rιver]

ma and pa arent like some normal toads,
and if he goes ''spacecraft'' then thats BFR,

But if he can summon any toad, then what's stopping him from summoning them?​

 

[Valhorus]

But if he can summon any toad, then what's stopping him from summoning them?​

Nothing is stoping him , or maybe the haters are ignoring the manga .

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[ARGUS]

But if he can summon any toad, then what's stopping him from summoning them?​

Because ma and pa don't operate on the same basis as the gama toads
Even naruto hasn't shown to be able to summon ma and pa despite fighting alongside them
Minato summoning tem is just fanfic

 

[Gold Lightning]

Because ma and pa don't operate on the same basis as the gama toads
Even naruto hasn't shown to be able to summon ma and pa despite fighting alongside them
Minato summoning tem is just fanfic

Reverse summoning via shadow clones.

Summons Gerotora, marks him, sends his clone to follow him and fetch Shima, done.

Not that all this is necessary, those who can summon Bunta can summon "All toads of Mount Myoboku".

 

[Rιver]

I've gone through enough of this argument to realize that there is almost never mutual agreement among the arguers. We all know very well that Minato can summon them, backed by Databook and the manga, period.​

 

[Penguin]

Kishi said anyone who can summon Bunta has all access to the toads, most likely because Bunta can summon Ma and Pa himself.

 

[Beans2]

I see where this is going. "Minato summons Ma/Pa, frog genjutsu gg hurr durr"

Jiraiya had to write a special blood summoning contract on his face and hold his hands together for several minutes to summon them, and he had a much closer relationship with the toads of Mt Myoboku than Minato did. Not only is it totally out of character for Minato to summon these two, but there's no proof that Minato even know these toads, much less proof that he knew the blood summoning contract to summon them. Does this mean Minato can use Toad Mouth Bind? Or summon the Great Toad Elder himself? Even if the answer is yes, it doesn't matter. The databook itself said "the toads one will be able to summon depends on his or her abilities". Having the know-how and being capable of using that ritual to summon Ma or Pa is an ability - one which Minato doesn't have.

Reverse summoning via shadow clones.

Summons Gerotora, marks him, sends his clone to follow him and fetch Shima, done.

Not that all this is necessary, those who can summon Bunta can summon "All toads of Mount Myoboku".

Don't see any problems with this. Shima should be able to arrive this way, assuming she's willing.

Regardless, an Oil + Fire combo attack is countered with Daikodan, which absorbs the oil and flames, rendering the attack useless. So not sure why this is still being argued. And Samehada can (maybe) snap Kisame out of genjutsu if you bring that up.

(I would like to debate this matchup with someone)

 

[TheAncientCenturion]

Just clearing up some of this fanfic you're putting down for some unknown reason. My views on the match is below.

Ponta isn't even near the size of Bunta, so using such is useless. Also, Katon = Suiton, Suiton is only labeled stronger because it can extinguish the flames. However, don't also forget that fire evaporates water. Adding wind makes fire stronger than water.

Kichi has used independently oil.​

Ponta is not that much smaller than Gamabunta, you know? Like, the size of the Water Dome Kisame is able to create can easily engulf Gamabunta. Just to recap; Naruto and Co. were in a forest when GamaBunta was summoned, using the trees and

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it's easy to see that

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was substantially smaller than that in which

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Even

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; It's pitiful in comparison. Is Bunta larger? Yes. Is it large enough to render an enormous Water Dome useless? Not a chance. Lel at the bold; Whenever two jutsu of near equal strength and size have met,

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, apart from the collaboration of literal fodders who managed to hold off Madara's Katon - Which I assumed you got this weird idea from. That's like saying Fuuton=Katon, and it's just the fact that the flames feed off of the fuuton element that Katon wins. It's called the elemental advantages that Yamato even told us, no use trying to fight the established canon.

If we're talking about Samehada, it only absorbs chakra that is not ambient or that is directly touching it. In this case, Minato and Tobirama are touching Kisame not Samehada.

Kunai decapitates him and kills him. Rasengan is a different story.​

@ The Bold; Partially true, but you negelected the fact that

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.

Which only works in a dome, that can be evaporated. Also, he can't create clones without his normal hands. When fused, he has hands that resemble fish fins. No seals, thus no jutsu.

That doesn't only sound ridiculous, but is also false. It merely jumped off a cliff. If that's what you'd call a flight, then I think I can fly too. With consequences.​

Hands that resemble fish fins. Huh. I did not know this:

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Was equal to this:

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They are webbed, you realize. They are not 'Fins'. Kisame is fully capable of using ninjutsu, breaking or snapping the webbing as he peforms hand signs is of no concern to him considering what he has taken and done in the line of duty. Biting his own tongue off and laughing, enduring a Lariat and his chest being blown out, which Sasuke took a weaker version of and was unconscious for. The list goes on. This is nothing but petty comments thrown out.\

And, as for the flying comment; It was more on the fact Kisame was making use of a

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as a means of travel, so quick that Gai needed

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,

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to catch up to Kisame whom already made it to the sea. Yeah, that's quick and technically is flight. more of hovering off the surface, but the point stands.

@Whoever is saying Daikodan requires an existing water source;

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---

The match up is hairy just because it is two Space Time Users. Hard to really think or decide what could happen with them, considering just how versatile they are in combat and given their unusually high chakra pools, they can likely resist and wear out Gaara and come in for the kill on both he and Kisame when the sand is incapable of protecting them any longer. I'd give them the win with medium to high difficulties.

 

[Rιver]

Just clearing up some of this fanfic you're putting down for some unknown reason. My views on the match is below.

Ponta is not that much smaller than Gamabunta, you know? Like, the size of the Water Dome Kisame is able to create can easily engulf Gamabunta. Just to recap; Naruto and Co. were in a forest when GamaBunta was summoned, using the trees and

You must be registered for see links

it's easy to see that

You must be registered for see links

was substantially smaller than that in which

You must be registered for see links

Even

You must be registered for see links

; It's pitiful in comparison. Is Bunta larger? Yes. Is it large enough to render an enormous Water Dome useless? Not a chance. Lel at the bold; Whenever two jutsu of near equal strength and size have met,

You must be registered for see links

, apart from the collaboration of literal fodders who managed to hold off Madara's Katon - Which I assumed you got this weird idea from. That's like saying Fuuton=Katon, and it's just the fact that the flames feed off of the fuuton element that Katon wins. It's called the elemental advantages that Yamato even told us, no use trying to fight the established canon.

As I said, Ponta is nowhere near the size of Bunta to be compared. While neglecting that fact, Bunta is nowher near the size of the flames that Jiraiya and Bunta created. It's that simple. We can all say ''oh, that tree looked 5cm smaller than the other, but it's just based on my notions''. We all know the trees were the same size, and Ponta was just too damn small.

The water got evaporated, as you can clearly see from the mist and lack of water afterwards. We've also seen that they cancel out each other on numerous instances

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. It's just that Suiton is able to efficiently cancel out Katon that it is labeled stronger, when in reality, there's not much difference. You can say that it's stronger than Katon, but in the end with the assistance of wind, all that remains irrelevant.​

@ The Bold; Partially true, but you negelected the fact that

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.

As if Minato or Tobirama will grab his hand and dance with him while being sucked dry. They would of course go in and go out in a flash. It's really that simple, and goes with their style.​

Hands that resemble fish fins. Huh. I did not know this:

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Was equal to this:

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They are webbed, you realize. They are not 'Fins'. Kisame is fully capable of using ninjutsu, breaking or snapping the webbing as he peforms hand signs is of no concern to him considering what he has taken and done in the line of duty. Biting his own tongue off and laughing, enduring a Lariat and his chest being blown out, which Sasuke took a weaker version of and was unconscious for. The list goes on. This is nothing but petty comments thrown out.\

And, as for the flying comment; It was more on the fact Kisame was making use of a

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as a means of travel, so quick that Gai needed

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,

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to catch up to Kisame whom already made it to the sea. Yeah, that's quick and technically is flight. more of hovering off the surface, but the point stands.

@Whoever is saying Daikodan requires an existing water source;

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---

The match up is hairy just because it is two Space Time Users. Hard to really think or decide what could happen with them, considering just how versatile they are in combat and given their unusually high chakra pools, they can likely resist and wear out Gaara and come in for the kill on both he and Kisame when the sand is incapable of protecting them any longer. I'd give them the win with medium to high difficulties.

I was just tired, l0l. Anyway, we all know that webbed hands won't be able to make seals, and even if they do, how does that matter if he has to stay in dome while Tobirama and Minato stand outside preparing their Katon? If clones come at them, who maintain only a portion of the original's strength, they get destroyed in no time.

That was Penguin, wasn't it.​

 

[Gold Lightning]

I see where this is going. "Minato summons Ma/Pa, frog genjutsu gg hurr durr"

Jiraiya had to write a special blood summoning contract on his face and hold his hands together for several minutes to summon them, and he had a much closer relationship with the toads of Mt Myoboku than Minato did. Not only is it totally out of character for Minato to summon these two, but there's no proof that Minato even know these toads, much less proof that he knew the blood summoning contract to summon them. Does this mean Minato can use Toad Mouth Bind? Or summon the Great Toad Elder himself? Even if the answer is yes, it doesn't matter. The databook itself said "the toads one will be able to summon depends on his or her abilities". Having the know-how and being capable of using that ritual to summon Ma or Pa is an ability - one which Minato doesn't have.



Don't see any problems with this. Shima should be able to arrive this way, assuming she's willing.

Regardless, an Oil + Fire combo attack is countered with Daikodan, which absorbs the oil and flames, rendering the attack useless. So not sure why this is still being argued. And Samehada can (maybe) snap Kisame out of genjutsu if you bring that up.

(I would like to debate this matchup with someone)

Minato definitely knew them because Bunta already pointed out to Fukasku that Naruto reminded them of both jiraya and minato, to which Fukasku agreed.

Minato knows senjutsu, Fukasaku is the one who teaches the art, so he must have taught minato

Jiraya having a better relationship with the toads is also questionable, jiraya said he couldn't even quite control Bunta. Yet bunta allowed minato to ride him freely.

And with regards to Minatos summoning ability, it shouldn't be in question whatsoever. Gerotora is a rare species of toad, yet minato can summon him without the use of hand signs with 1 hand hand.

 

[Inert Brian]

The location contains enough sand and water for Gaara, and Kisame to harness. I'm going with team 1, mainly because Gaara can fly Kisame and Himself in case Kisame changes the environment. Kisame may ruin the sand due to his water making it heavy though. But Gaara can strike at both of them while they try to move in water (if he has fresh sand).


The Sharks will make both of them struggle as well, Gai had to pull out 6 gates against 33 percent Kisame.

Kisame and Gaara win med difficulty.

 

[TheAncientCenturion]

As I said, Ponta is nowhere near the size of Bunta to be compared. While neglecting that fact, Bunta is nowher near the size of the flames that Jiraiya and Bunta created. It's that simple. We can all say ''oh, that tree looked 5cm smaller than the other, but it's just based on my notions''. We all know the trees were the same size, and Ponta was just too damn small.

The water got evaporated, as you can clearly see from the mist and lack of water afterwards. We've also seen that they cancel out each other on numerous instances

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. It's just that Suiton is able to efficiently cancel out Katon that it is labeled stronger, when in reality, there's not much difference. You can say that it's stronger than Katon, but in the end with the assistance of wind, all that remains irrelevant.​

Are you trying to suggest the forest that Kisame and Bee dueled in had the same size trees as that in which Gaara and Gamabunta fought? I am hoping this is a misunderstanding, otherwise not much else to do here but tell you to reread both arcs. The different in size is noticeable.

Not sure why you're still on this; Naturally there will be mist between the two. It's literally fire hitting water, of course there's going to be a struggle between techniques. But, guess who's always the winner in the end? The Suiton technique, as I've already showed you the unneeded example and its literally been stated in the manga.

As if Minato or Tobirama will grab his hand and dance with him while being sucked dry. They would of course go in and go out in a flash. It's really that simple, and goes with their style.​

Not sure what this is on; I was clearing up the comment you made on how Samehada must make contact to absorb the chakra.

I was just tired, l0l. Anyway, we all know that webbed hands won't be able to make seals, and even if they do, how does that matter if he has to stay in dome while Tobirama and Minato stand outside preparing their Katon? If clones come at them, who maintain only a portion of the original's strength, they get destroyed in no time.

That was Penguin, wasn't it.​

[/FONT]

Once more; Clearing up a misconception that you made. They can, did you even read? What's stopping Kisame from making them, and letting the insignificant flesh between fingers rip and tear as he executes jutsu? It's really bizarre to believe he wouldn't do this if he really needed to get a technique off.

Mizu Bunshin of a Kisamehada would actually be a formidable foe, as opposed to most clones. Literally they'll absorb anything but physical blows, and to come in and do such a thing means you're likely to have chakra be sucked. Along with the obvious sensing and speed in the water, yeah. Dangerous.

 

[Penguin]

@TAC

We have only seen Daikodan used with a water source. That was a Zetsu clone of Kisame. Who knows if it would have been as big or as powerful as the Daikodan with the Water Dome's water source.

AC had a good argument that I need to dig up.

 

[Unorthodox]

Tobirama isnt a factor

 

[TheAncientCenturion]

@TAC

We have only seen Daikodan used with a water source. That was a Zetsu clone of Kisame. Who knows if it would have been as big or as powerful as the Daikodan with the Water Dome's water source.

AC had a good argument that I need to dig up.

He had a horrible argument. It was, "The plan was to be captured so it was all a distraction!"

No, the Daikodan is entirely dependent on size. One with a premade water source is technically more powerful because it can grow to be larger than one that would come from his mouth. But, the results and absorption/growth are all the same.