Forgive Madara or Not

Sageof7Path

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you're pretty dumb we all know people from back then were alot more sexist i mean you think the pilgrims weren't sexist you're a fool its how things were back then and Madrara was just one of the people of that time period.
Lol you're calling me dumb yet you're the one comparing a manga series based on untrue event is a time period 100 years ago to the actual early colonization of America which actually happened... Lol How old are you and what's your keel of education? Troll.
 

Sageof7Path

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Zabuza uses Haku... a child.

Obito uses Nagato, a young, confused adult.

Countless children are slaughtered during warring states period because they are all conscripted as part of military might for clan...

Orochimaru uses Kabuto as a young, confused adult. Tries to use Sasuke. Uses Karin... and, to an extent, Juugo and Suigetsu, uses Sound four, who could hardly be older than Naruto and Sasuke's current age...

Kabuto manipulated a DYING Kimimaro into getting Sasuke to Orochimaru, who couldn't be too old himself.

Using people younger than you isn't exactly a new concept in Naruto.

Just because Madara likes battle doesn't mean he doesn't WANT peace. You can have two conflicting opinions with different emotions for both. It's like... Me for example. I could never kill an animal, but that doesn't necessarily make me a vegan (a standout point of vegans being that they are often against animal slaughter) but I am borderline carnivore. It's a shitty example, but I can't really think of anything else that comes close.

Danzo/Elders use Itachi...

And Madara is "oh such a terrible villain" for using Obito? This isn't exactly a new theme in Naruto.
I'm pretty sure Obito was 14 years old while Nagato was like 24 when they met LOL
 
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Yes I can forgive Madara. As far as he knew, the infinite tsukuyomi would have created eternal peace. It was a great and benevolent idea. It was just unfortunate that Madara was actually deceived by Black Zetsu. Had Madara known that the infinite tsukuyomi was just a ploy for the user to absorb chakara and turn everyone into white zetsu slaves, then he wouldn't have even done the things that he did.

Madara was a tragic hero. Kaguya was the real villain here.
 
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Infant

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Yes I can forgive Madara. As far as he knew, the infinite tsukuyomi would have created eternal peace. It was a great and benevolent idea. It was just unfortunate that Madara was actually deceived by Black Zetsu. Had Madara known that the infinite tsukuyomi was just a ploy for the user to absorb chakara and turn everyone into white zetsu slaves, then he wouldn't have even done the things that he did.

Madara was a tragic hero. Kaguya was the real villain here.
An end goal doesn't justify the steps taken when alternative steps are possible.

Besides that, the main focus of OP was the character of Madara. Everything he did before Konoha (the fighting) and after reincarnation (needlessly killing soldiers and enjoying it) was not necessary for his end-goal. His end-goal also doesn't account for his general enjoyment of bloodshed.

He can be defended for his end goal, but everything else is another matter
 
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An end goal doesn't justify the steps taken when alternative steps are possible.

Besides that, the main focus of OP was the character of Madara. Everything he did before Konoha (the fighting) and after reincarnation (needlessly killing soldiers and enjoying it) was not necessary for his end-goal. His end-goal also doesn't account for his general enjoyment of bloodshed.

He can be defended for his end goal, but everything else is another matter
If you think about what Madara's end goal was, not many alternative steps were possible (if any at all). The infinite tsukuyomi actually required him to awaken the rinnegan and gather the bijuus and become the juubi's jinchuuriki. That said, the rinnegan took so long to awaken that Madara actually had to use Obito and Nagato in order to go forth with his plan (because Madara was too old and near death by the time of the rinnegan's awakening). If you ask me why Madara had to use them and do things such as orchestrate people's deaths instead of just peacefully asking the likes of Obito and Nagato (or anyone else) to help them, it is because not many people would understand or be willing to help him if he just asked. Therefore, he had to use underhanded tactics to get their support.

What's more, he had to tell Obito to gather the bijuus because... well obviously the revival of the juubi requires the bijuus. Of course, the shinobi nations wouldn't just hand over their bijuus. Hence, the activities of the akautski and ultimately the 4th great ninja war became necessary.

Therefore, arguments can be made against the notion that "alternative steps are possible".

As for everything he did "before Konoha" (I'm assuming that you are talking about the era of warring states before the establishment of Konoha):

Madara didn't really do anything then (so to speak). Sure, he killed people in war. However, so did everyone else. Hashirama killed people in war. Tobirama killed people in war. Butsuma Senju killed people. Tajima Uchiha killed people. It was war after all. What do you expect?

Furthermore, that war was not a war that Madara started. It was simply a war that he was born into and couldn't help but fight in.

As for his actions as an edo tensei and after his revival as a rinne tensei:

You say that he needlessly killed soldiers, but that is not true. Just as in the era of warring states, the 4th great ninja war was... war! He had to kill them or else they would seal him away, and that would of course ruin his plan. You can't really fault someone for killing in war (and if you say that he is the one who started this war, I already explained why this was necessary).

As for his enjoyment of bloodshed, you misunderstand Madara. Madara didn't enjoy bloodshed. Madara enjoyed fighting. This is common in these shonen battle series. Almost every shonen battle series has at least one character who enjoys fighting. Usually, that person does not necessarily enjoy killing. Rather they enjoy the fighting itself.

Think about Goku. He loves fighting, but not necessarily killing. He loves to fight all out battles against powerful opponents, and in general, he likes to have both himself and the opponent walk away alive and live to train and fight again another day.
Of course, when killing is necessary, then Goku will kill. He does not like the killing, but even so, he still enjoys the fighting in the meantime.

That is how Madara is. Madara enjoys the fighting, not the killing. Madara just has to kill because whenever we saw him fight, it was during a time of war.

A testament to my point that Madara enjoys fighting and not killing, is the fact that edo Madara got really excited about fighting edo Hashirama. Edo Hashirama was already dead, so there would literally be no bloodshed or death in that. It would be just fighting. Heck, Madara even wanted to fight Hashirama before becoming the juubi's jinchuuriki so that it could be a fair fight. That emphasizes that Madara really just liked fighting, not necessarily killing.

To be honest, Madara hated killing/bloodshed. This is why he was trying to make peace in the first place. This is even why he shared dreams with Hashirama back when they were kids.
 

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If you think about what Madara's end goal was, not many alternative steps were possible (if any at all). The infinite tsukuyomi actually required him to awaken the rinnegan and gather the bijuus and become the juubi's jinchuuriki. That said, the rinnegan took so long to awaken that Madara actually had to use Obito and Nagato in order to go forth with his plan (because Madara was too old and near death by the time of the rinnegan's awakening). If you ask me why Madara had to use them and do things such as orchestrate people's deaths instead of just peacefully asking the likes of Obito and Nagato (or anyone else) to help them, it is because not many people would understand or be willing to help him if he just asked. Therefore, he had to use underhanded tactics to get their support.

What's more, he had to tell Obito to gather the bijuus because... well obviously the revival of the juubi requires the bijuus. Of course, the shinobi nations wouldn't just hand over their bijuus. Hence, the activities of the akautski and ultimately the 4th great ninja war became necessary.

Therefore, arguments can be made against the notion that "alternative steps are possible".

As for everything he did "before Konoha" (I'm assuming that you are talking about the era of warring states before the establishment of Konoha):

Madara didn't really do anything then (so to speak). Sure, he killed people in war. However, so did everyone else. Hashirama killed people in war. Tobirama killed people in war. Butsuma Senju killed people. Tajima Uchiha killed people. It was war after all. What do you expect?

Furthermore, that war was not a war that Madara started. It was simply a war that he was born into and couldn't help but fight in.

As for his actions as an edo tensei and after his revival as a rinne tensei:

You say that he needlessly killed soldiers, but that is not true. Just as in the era of warring states, the 4th great ninja war was... war! He had to kill them or else they would seal him away, and that would of course ruin his plan. You can't really fault someone for killing in war (and if you say that he is the one who started this war, I already explained why this was necessary).

As for his enjoyment of bloodshed, you misunderstand Madara. Madara didn't enjoy bloodshed. Madara enjoyed fighting. This is common in these shonen battle series. Almost every shonen battle series has at least one character who enjoys fighting. Usually, that person does not necessarily enjoy killing. Rather they enjoy the fighting itself.

Think about Goku. He loves fighting, but not necessarily killing. He loves to fight all out battles against powerful opponents, and in general, he likes to have both himself and the opponent walk away alive and live to train and fight again another day.
Of course, when killing is necessary, then Goku will kill. He does not like the killing, but even so, he still enjoys the fighting in the meantime.

That is how Madara is. Madara enjoys the fighting, not the killing. Madara just has to kill because whenever we saw him fight, it was during a time of war.

A testament to my point that Madara enjoys fighting and not killing, is the fact that edo Madara got really excited about fighting edo Hashirama. Edo Hashirama was already dead, so there would literally be no bloodshed or death in that. It would be just fighting. Heck, Madara even wanted to fight Hashirama before becoming the juubi's jinchuuriki so that it could be a fair fight. That emphasizes that Madara really just liked fighting, not necessarily killing.

To be honest, Madara hated killing/bloodshed. This is why he was trying to make peace in the first place. This is even why he shared dreams with Hashirama back when they were kids.
Potential is the counterpart of achievement, because the latter has already been done but the former has not yet been done.
The latter is already mapped out, the former is vague. The latter has a single form, the former can have any form. The latter, therefore, us always clear while the former is always unclear.
This means that in retrospective discussion, achievement always has an advantage because it requires no thought to perceive while potential paths require imagination and logic. So people easily fall for a trap of thinking that the taken path was the only possible path. That is to say, that it was THE PATH, and not simply A PATH.
To test this out, we must endeavour to see what else could be possible and reject the idea that the taken path is/was supreme, at least in our minds. As long as the end goal does not absolutely force the steps taken previously (by its own rules, like how a marathon doesn't just have an end but a fixed path) then we cannot say that alternatives are impossible. In fact, the very existence of other possibilities makes it certain that alternatives exist. It is as how any route to town is clearly marked, but the existence of open areas between home and town means that it is possible to have forged other paths towards town.
On top of that, any rules that exist regarding reaching the end goal, so long as they are not completely restrictive, actually make it easier to imagine alternatives because they give us the bare necessities. This allows us to then see if there was any excess in the already taken path.
In this case, there was much.
The Rinnegan is already attained via Hashirama. His rebirth could have been done by Obito strengthened by the Heretic Statue itself. Almost immediately after his death!
The Ten Tails only needs a portion of the energy of each tailed beast, as we saw with Gyuki and Kurama. It doesn't need all of them.
EVERYTHING ELSE WAS EXCESSIVE, BY THE RULES.
Of course, we don't just speak of alternatives, but of their quality. Simply put, wouldn't the minimal path given by the rules, which has far less bloodshed, be better? Since we now have that, counterpoints must show every bit of excess in the taken path to have been for the better . . .
As for his character, some parts were left out.
Firstly, being a trope or a common example does not negate the meaning of actions, especially in a world like Naruto that is far more realistic than Dragon Ball. In the world of Naruto, Madara killed people unnecessarily.
Secondly, fighting is about harming others at the end of the day. Madara growing up in that world (warfare) would have turned him off of it if morality/necessity was the only reason he did it. It didn't, he always enjoyed it.
Thirdly, enjoying a specific fight does not exclude enjoying killing in general. Inb4 extreme cases, not being an absolute maniac like Hidan does not mean you are clean. It just means there is someone dirtier.
To complete these, there are many cases of Madara killing unnecessarily. That soldier that Gaara saved with his sand defence did not need to be killed, Madara was enjoying his power. He made statements of hating weak people. That has nothing to do with his end goal. In fact, his end goal needs weak, innocent people who he doesn't have to fight to death. He attempted to oppress Iwagakure for power purposes. He led the Uchiha clan from his teen years. Him and Hashirama could have easily ended the wars by the age of 20, due to their leadership positions. He could use illusions to bind Kurama to a contract. He could have done that for all the tailed beasts. His battle with the Five Shadows was dragged out for his enjoyment, which he expressed multiple times. And so on.
Madara enjoyed his own power. The goal of saving the world served as a great excuse for using it, but he himself never denied enjoying his war games. Even his end goal speaks of someone who did not respect the lives of others and what those lives meant to them. He did not respect others enough to decide their own fates or to at least figure it out for themselves. He saw his own way and just bulldozed along and over any dissent.
 

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Yes I can forgive Madara. As far as he knew, the infinite tsukuyomi would have created eternal peace. It was a great and benevolent idea. It was just unfortunate that Madara was actually deceived by Black Zetsu. Had Madara known that the infinite tsukuyomi was just a ploy for the user to absorb chakara and turn everyone into white zetsu slaves, then he wouldn't have even done the things that he did.

Madara was a tragic hero. Kaguya was the real villain here.
If you think about what Madara's end goal was, not many alternative steps were possible (if any at all). The infinite tsukuyomi actually required him to awaken the rinnegan and gather the bijuus and become the juubi's jinchuuriki. That said, the rinnegan took so long to awaken that Madara actually had to use Obito and Nagato in order to go forth with his plan (because Madara was too old and near death by the time of the rinnegan's awakening). If you ask me why Madara had to use them and do things such as orchestrate people's deaths instead of just peacefully asking the likes of Obito and Nagato (or anyone else) to help them, it is because not many people would understand or be willing to help him if he just asked. Therefore, he had to use underhanded tactics to get their support.

What's more, he had to tell Obito to gather the bijuus because... well obviously the revival of the juubi requires the bijuus. Of course, the shinobi nations wouldn't just hand over their bijuus. Hence, the activities of the akautski and ultimately the 4th great ninja war became necessary.

Therefore, arguments can be made against the notion that "alternative steps are possible".

As for everything he did "before Konoha" (I'm assuming that you are talking about the era of warring states before the establishment of Konoha):

Madara didn't really do anything then (so to speak). Sure, he killed people in war. However, so did everyone else. Hashirama killed people in war. Tobirama killed people in war. Butsuma Senju killed people. Tajima Uchiha killed people. It was war after all. What do you expect?

Furthermore, that war was not a war that Madara started. It was simply a war that he was born into and couldn't help but fight in.

As for his actions as an edo tensei and after his revival as a rinne tensei:

You say that he needlessly killed soldiers, but that is not true. Just as in the era of warring states, the 4th great ninja war was... war! He had to kill them or else they would seal him away, and that would of course ruin his plan. You can't really fault someone for killing in war (and if you say that he is the one who started this war, I already explained why this was necessary).

As for his enjoyment of bloodshed, you misunderstand Madara. Madara didn't enjoy bloodshed. Madara enjoyed fighting. This is common in these shonen battle series. Almost every shonen battle series has at least one character who enjoys fighting. Usually, that person does not necessarily enjoy killing. Rather they enjoy the fighting itself.

Think about Goku. He loves fighting, but not necessarily killing. He loves to fight all out battles against powerful opponents, and in general, he likes to have both himself and the opponent walk away alive and live to train and fight again another day.
Of course, when killing is necessary, then Goku will kill. He does not like the killing, but even so, he still enjoys the fighting in the meantime.

That is how Madara is. Madara enjoys the fighting, not the killing. Madara just has to kill because whenever we saw him fight, it was during a time of war.

A testament to my point that Madara enjoys fighting and not killing, is the fact that edo Madara got really excited about fighting edo Hashirama. Edo Hashirama was already dead, so there would literally be no bloodshed or death in that. It would be just fighting. Heck, Madara even wanted to fight Hashirama before becoming the juubi's jinchuuriki so that it could be a fair fight. That emphasizes that Madara really just liked fighting, not necessarily killing.

To be honest, Madara hated killing/bloodshed. This is why he was trying to make peace in the first place. This is even why he shared dreams with Hashirama back when they were kids.
bobito titn't gather no bijuus it was tobidara...there are tings edomadara ignored..
 
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