Lol I just wanna know the story as well, I don't even really care if I'm wrong, I just want that next chapter to be released and hope it doesn't switch to a different scene. xD
Yeah it would definitely explain his goofy/serious attitude.
I guess his face could be damaged, making it look wrinkly, though I do think it's aging. But...there's also the mystery why Madara is so young. The edo tensei brings you back the way you died. And yet, Madara was revived looking young, and we know he lived to meet Nagato. We also know that it has nothing to do with the improvement on Madara's body, otherwise Madara would have known for sure that Kabuto knew he lived afterwards. Also, it wouldn't make much sense for Madara to want to be brought back at the old age that he died lol. Especially via the rinne tensei, that's no different from Kakashi's ressurection, Madara would still have the same amount of years/days to live as before. :/ So the question is, what did he do to regain his youth?
My thoughts are split on who Tobi is, just like the majority, I'm thinking he's Izuna. At first I'm with the crowd that it's too far fetched to assume Tobi=Obito.
But, considering the recent developments of the plot I'm afraid I'm leaning towards Tobi as being Obito. Anyway, I won't post about my thoughts on Izuna=Tobi because it's almost the same as everyone else's(those who believe Tobi=Izuna).
Moving on, what I would like to share are my thoughts about Tobi being Obito.
If Tobi is Obito (i'm not yet 100% convinced,note: this isn't a complete explanation on how tobi=obito just a thought):
I think the reason Tobi became how and what he is right now has something to do about a character that has been overlooked and neglected by many but holds great importance to Obito and Kakasahi. That's right I'm talking about Rin. As we all know she died but unfortunately the reason and events behind her death are still in the Kishi's locker, it's still unknown, a mystery. I believe Kishi meant it this way because the story of her death holds the explanation why Tobi turned into a madman. First we all know that Obito loves Rin now let me direct you to that eventful day when Obito was stucked under boulders of rocks, He decided to give kakashi his right eye as a gift then he made a request a 'WISH' for Kakashi to take care of Rin. Kakashi took it by the heart and decided that he would be Rin's protector even stating that he(kakashi) would sacrifice his own life just to save Rin if ever it needs to come to that. BUT we all know that Kakashi failed 'cause Rin died for some unknown reason.
Now, another thing that struck me was Tobi's line in the latest chapter(597) wherein he said to Kakashi: "You've seen reality, you should be able to understand...No 'WISH' can become true in this world" He really sounded like a really bitter person to me, like he is carrying something heavy inside.
I think those lines about a WISH implies something deeper. Maybe Obito during his recovering and brain conditioning years with Madara covertly witnessed Rin's death and Kakashi's short coming of protecting her. This convinced him to totally go with Madara's plan as the only solution for the shortcomings of the shinobi world. Furthermore Tobi also said in chapter 597 that he 'wants to make a world where HEROES don't have to make pitiful excuses in front of graves' now we all know that this is a pun to the failure of Kakashi 'the Hero of the Sharingan' to fulfill a dying Obito's sole WISH>>>There was a flashback scene showing Kakashi standing before a grave.
As we all know, my thoughts are interpreted from translated materials so I'm really not sure if the wordings were correct from the original Japanese meanings, but hey based on what i read these are my thoughts.
This is actually great input, from the moment I started reading, I got the idea that maybe Tobi saw Rin's death and was going to mention that when quoting you, but you already covered that as well. xD
Great job. rep+
At first, I thought it's just too obvious.
But then I started considering the story. Everyone was saying that Tobi is Madara, and that for Madara to be in that coffin is just too obvious. And then, it actually was Madara in that coffin. Some were even saying that it would be too cliche for a mystery man behind a mask. However, when the ninja world discovered that it wasn't Madara, Kishi ended the chapter with a "Who's behind that mask?!" Like no one was ever even suppose to suspect a different person. -__-
You may not remember this, but there was that chapter when Naruto first arrived to the scene of the war, and Kishi ended that chapter with a "Who's rasengan is that?!" Now I actually thought it'd be too obvious to be Naruto, but I was wrong. -.-
Then there's the recent chapter, LOTS have said it's too obvious if it was Obito's eye, but it actually turned out to be.
It's just how Kishi is, I believe he already had this planned, and now all his pieces are falling into place. I think most of the crowd just became tired of hearing Obito theories, and because they get called idiots all the time, lots went along with those who opposed the theory. xd
Lol I just wanna know the story as well, I don't even really care if I'm wrong, I just want that next chapter to be released and hope it doesn't switch to a different scene. xD
Yeah it would definitely explain his goofy/serious attitude.
I guess his face could be damaged, making it look wrinkly, though I do think it's aging. But...there's also the mystery why Madara is so young. The edo tensei brings you back the way you died. And yet, Madara was revived looking young, and we know he lived to meet Nagato. We also know that it has nothing to do with the improvement on Madara's body, otherwise Madara would have known for sure that Kabuto knew he lived afterwards. Also, it wouldn't make much sense for Madara to want to be brought back at the old age that he died lol. Especially via the rinne tensei, that's no different from Kakashi's ressurection, Madara would still have the same amount of years/days to live as before. :/ So the question is, what did he do to regain his youth?
Maybe Orochimaru's body take-over technique.
I don't remember if hes the only one who can do it, due to snake like body and such.
If not than maybe Madara knows it aswell.
Captain Ginyu style xd
Ginyu ~ Saiyan
Orochimaru ~ Uchiha
Madara ~ a Senju or Uzumaki body?
Maybe Orochimaru's body take-over technique.
I don't remember if hes the only one who can do it, due to snake like body and such.
If not than maybe Madara knows it aswell.
Captain Ginyu style xd
Ginyu ~ Saiyan
Orochimaru ~ Uchiha
Madara ~ a Senju or Uzumaki body?
You know, at first I thought "maybe" then I thought, "just maybe!". You have no idea, but you have just said something big. O_O Especially with the clues in the recent chapters, I can't believe this got pass me.
I'm not sure either if you have to be snake like, but what I do know, is that sasuke made a comment is that he experimented on his own body to be able to transfer his soul into another, and that was his result.
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Another thing, we know that the body Oro takes over, takes on his physical characteristics. If you remember, Oro wanted to transfer into Sasuke's body when Sasuke was only like 12/13, it would look funny as hell to see Oro at that height. I don't think Kishi would have done that. o.o So I think his body would probably have grown too, at least some.
But then I ran into the problem of how could Madara be resurrected, having two different souls and all. Then I remembered Oro's curse mark, it would fit perfectly if zetsu is like that curse mark, carrying a portion of Madara's soul( I know this have been said before), and then he put this into Obito, and it all fits considering Tobi appears to have pieces of Zetsu/goo in him.
And of course this means Madara's and Oro's experimentation were different in more ways than one, considering Obito may still retain a little of his own conscious, and also means Madara's original body regained its youth). It all fits though, in the end, they were both seeking ways to live longer...
And it also won't look like Kishi is pulling stuff out his you know what, but purposely introduced the body transfer technique along with that curse mark thing, he was just setting everything up. And suddenly, the Obito theory doesn't look so stupid, I mean Kishi needed a body for this, and that's Obito's role. Whether it's a strong Uchiha, or a weak 13 year old Uchiha, it was just a vessel for his soul to be stored, in hopes of his original body's revival.
Insead of making the story boring, and just throwing some body in there, he decided to make it more interesting by adding a story behind that body, connecting it with Kakashi and such, making it more sentimental and so on.
You know, at first I thought "maybe" then I thought, "just maybe!". You have no idea, but you have just said something big. O_O Especially with the clues in the recent chapters, I can't believe this got pass me.
I'm not sure either if you have to be snake like, but what I do know, is that sasuke made a comment is that he experimented on his own body to be able to transfer his soul into another, and that was his result.
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Another thing, we know that the body Oro takes over, takes on his physical characteristics. If you remember, Oro wanted to transfer into Sasuke's body when Sasuke was only like 12/13, it would look funny as hell to see Oro at that height. I don't think Kishi would have done that. o.o So I think his body would probably have grown too, at least some.
But then I ran into the problem of how could Madara be resurrected, having two different souls and all. Then I remembered Oro's curse mark, it would fit perfectly if zetsu is like that curse mark, carrying a portion of Madara's soul( I know this have been said before), and then he put this into Obito, and it all fits considering Tobi appears to have pieces of Zetsu/goo in him.
And of course this means Madara's and Oro's experimentation were different in more ways than one. It all fits though, in the end, they were both seeking ways to live longer...
Also, the era of ''Bloody Mist'' could've served as a factory or school to raise potent, strong ''vessels'' for whomever it was that controlled the 4th Mizukage.
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I still want to know what Zabuza was upto during the coup.
Also, the era of ''Bloody Mist'' could've served as a factory or school to raise potent, strong ''vessels'' for whomever it was that controlled the 4th Mizukage.
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I still want to know what Zabuza was upto during the coup.
I am quoting you on tause because I'm too lazy to quote you from earlier. However, reading reading over what you wrote in an earlier post, it seems to me you kinda screwed up your counters to my theory? Because the basis of your counters to me was that Madara DIDN'T die right after obtaining the Rinnegan. However, you posted something I entirely forgot, and that is that Madara was clearly revived at an age very near that at which he fought Hashirama...knowing that, it automatically makes it certain that died shortly after the battle, and further bolsters my arument. How exactly are you explaining that? I didn't read much beyond that, but I cannot think of any plausible answer. It seems to me you basically destroyed your argument.
On to something totally different, my theory is, as many others, Izuna.
He was obviously alive during Madara's time.
His height and weight match perfectly.
We know he was already a formidable Uchiha to begin with.
He could have certainly been kept alive using senju DNA and by experimenting with Zetsu (his arm shows this, and he has said that he has senju DNA).
Now, a question as to why he only uses Obito's eye? Well, it would be mighty suspicious to take an eye from any Uchiha, the Sharingan is heavily protected and it would be very difficult to get one without being noticed. Obito's however was supposedly lost, nobody thought it could be retrieved, so he could have used Zetsu to get it without anyone noticing. Then, it would be his only Sharingan, so after he uses it for a while, he would become more attatched to it, explaining why he only uses that one. Because it was his first.
Considering the case about his "death". A good thread has been made explaining this. There is also the case that the actual body we saw was a flashback from TOBI'S "memory" when he was posing as Madara. Thus it could be a lie, or maybe even a Zetsu clone copy (like Kisame). Also, seeing as how he would have worked with Madara, Madara may have easily been lying about his death to preserve his true identity and keep up the fear and mystery.
Considering why he seems to know Kakashi so well. This could easily just be a ploy to strike mental blows upon Kakashi. Considering he has Obito's eye, everything he does will be far more personal to Kakashi. Similarly, since Zetsu can see everything that goes on near plant life, he would have easy access to the knowledge of Kakashi's "empty promises" and would probably be trying to use that to mess up his mental state. Remember that he is also trying to do the same against Naruto, so no one can use the excuse of "why only to Kakashi?".
Further information to back up my theory. When Tobi was talking to Sasuke about his brother's sacrifice, he visibly clenches his hands. This is an emotional reaction, and very unlikely to have been faked, there was no reason to do so. Clearly, Izuna's sacrifice had an emotional effect on Tobi. Thus, he should most likely be someone upon who this would have a personal effect on. Izuna would be perfect.
This leads right into the motive. He sacrificed his eye to preserve the Uchiha name. To have it thrown away like that in their eventual treaty would explain his grudge against the Uchiha and against the Leaf.
So with all this, it seems to me Izuna is the most probable candidate for Tobi's true identity.
I am quoting you on tause because I'm too lazy to quote you from earlier. However, reading reading over what you wrote in an earlier post, it seems to me you kinda screwed up your counters to my theory? Because the basis of your counters to me was that Madara DIDN'T die right after obtaining the Rinnegan. However, you posted something I entirely forgot, and that is that Madara was clearly revived at an age very near that at which he fought Hashirama...knowing that, it automatically makes it certain that died shortly after the battle, and further bolsters my arument. How exactly are you explaining that? I didn't read much beyond that, but I cannot think of any plausible answer. It seems to me you basically destroyed your argument.
On to something totally different, my theory is, as many others, Izuna.
He was obviously alive during Madara's time.
His height and weight match perfectly.
We know he was already a formidable Uchiha to begin with.
He could have certainly been kept alive using senju DNA and by experimenting with Zetsu (his arm shows this, and he has said that he has senju DNA).
Now, a question as to why he only uses Obito's eye? Well, it would be mighty suspicious to take an eye from any Uchiha, the Sharingan is heavily protected and it would be very difficult to get one without being noticed. Obito's however was supposedly lost, nobody thought it could be retrieved, so he could have used Zetsu to get it without anyone noticing. Then, it would be his only Sharingan, so after he uses it for a while, he would become more attatched to it, explaining why he only uses that one. Because it was his first.
Considering the case about his "death". A good thread has been made explaining this. There is also the case that the actual body we saw was a flashback from TOBI'S "memory" when he was posing as Madara. Thus it could be a lie, or maybe even a Zetsu clone copy (like Kisame). Also, seeing as how he would have worked with Madara, Madara may have easily been lying about his death to preserve his true identity and keep up the fear and mystery.
Considering why he seems to know Kakashi so well. This could easily just be a ploy to strike mental blows upon Kakashi. Considering he has Obito's eye, everything he does will be far more personal to Kakashi. Similarly, since Zetsu can see everything that goes on near plant life, he would have easy access to the knowledge of Kakashi's "empty promises" and would probably be trying to use that to mess up his mental state. Remember that he is also trying to do the same against Naruto, so no one can use the excuse of "why only to Kakashi?".
Further information to back up my theory. When Tobi was talking to Sasuke about his brother's sacrifice, he visibly clenches his hands. This is an emotional reaction, and very unlikely to have been faked, there was no reason to do so. Clearly, Izuna's sacrifice had an emotional effect on Tobi. Thus, he should most likely be someone upon who this would have a personal effect on. Izuna would be perfect.
This leads right into the motive. He sacrificed his eye to preserve the Uchiha name. To have it thrown away like that in their eventual treaty would explain his grudge against the Uchiha and against the Leaf.
So with all this, it seems to me Izuna is the most probable candidate for Tobi's true identity.
I feel like I have to state that I'm not an Obito theorist at the beginning of every post I make, because it seems like I'm defending Obito every time I post...
I don't think it makes sense for it to be Obito, but I think it's headed that direction. I want it to be Izuna, but it just doesn't make sense anymore.
Both of them have conflicting reasons why it can't be either one of them. Something has to give. My latest thought though, is why would Izuna give two $#its what Kakashi thinks/does ?
All of the.. "Good eye", "I guess I'd say I want a perfect body" comments, and in the latest manga, there was the following,
"You're.."
"I told you not to open your mouth so easily!" , among the "graves" talk, etc.
Tobi obviously interrupting Kakashi for one of two reasons.
1) Tobi-Obito doesn't want to be known as Obito
2) Tobi-Izuna is warning Kakashi that things are never as they seem, and should never open his mouth unless he's sure.
Everything is just so oddly personal towards Kakashi. Kakashi being there is absolutely a plot device. Every time there's ever been any significant Tobi dialogue, Kakashi has always been there. Save the one time that Tobi had Sasuke.
This can be argued that Kakashi and Tobi are both key figures of the series and their interaction is unavoidable. But the consistency of their interactions, along with the personal touch of their dialogue, it seems inevitable that Obito is going to be revealed to be Tobi. I just hope Kishi has a damn good explanation.
Everything is just so oddly personal towards Kakashi. Kakashi being there is absolutely a plot device. Every time there's ever been any significant Tobi dialogue, Kakashi has always been there. Save the one time that Tobi had Sasuke.
Madara clearly states " the world be better serve under infinite tsuKuyomi. Which is the most powerful genjustu. Tobi wants to do that and before that Shisui had the most powerful Genjutsu.
Lol I’m not sure if you’re serious, but that’s hardly evidence. xD But if you want to bring Shisui into this plot, let me help with that.
Here, I don’t think Kishi put this in without a reason, she says there may be a connection between the two.
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Now, what I discovered in this debate is that Kisame was 32 at his time of death. Subtract 16 years from that (The attack on Konoha) and he’s 16. He appears to be like eighteen to early twenties (Which would be something like 20-23) at the time he meets whoever is controlling Yagura. So that's like 2-7 years after fox attack.
Now, pay attention to Itachi’s words. “I couldn’t use it, at least not the, Shisui’s Mangyeko require at least another decade before it can activate again.”
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Itachi was like 12/13 at that time, he was most likely around five-six years old at the time of the fox attack. So that’s like 7 years later and add like another 1-2 years (The duration of peace before the fox attack) and you get like 8-9 years. And this means Shisui possibly used his MS which would take another ten years to use during a time of no war. Is this all a coincidence? I don’t think so, I don’t know how he ties into this, but I think he does. It appears that there's a possibility his MS was used around the time the 4th Mizukage was being controlled.
To make it a little more simple, there's roughly 8-9 years of peace from the time the war ended, to the time Shisui gave Itachi his eye. During ta time of no war, it's unlikely Shisui would risk using his MS.
Also, Kisame was 29-30 years old in part one, Sasuke was 13 at that time. And I think he was around 8 at the time of the massacre, and I believe Shisui gave Itachi his eye around the same time. So let's take five years off, making Sasuke 8 and Kisame 25-26. we know that there's no way Yagura was being controlled via KA if it was Itachi's....wait a sec, oh shiz. O_O
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First, forget all the assumptions on Kisame's age that I made during his meeting with whoever that was.
We know that Itachi helped Tobi collect the all the tailed beast, correct? Whose to say that Itachi didn't loan Tobi Shisui's eye? Anything could have happened during the time Itachi had it. This was a loose eye after all.
Unless there's a timeline that disproves this beyond a doubt, I think it may even be true. *__*
And I already took into account that if Itachi gave Tobi his eye after the massacre, there would be no way for Itachi to have used it against himself if Tobi used it. But let's not forget, Danzo who had Hashi's dna, used it many times.
Haha, I'm sorry that I lost you! I just want you to give me an explanation as to how Madara has been revived in a state seemingly very close to how he was when he fought Hashi. The fact that he was contradicts your reasoning that he lived for many years after his battle with Hashi, even though by his edo it seems as though he died very shortly after said battle.
Also, what are your reasons as to why you do not believe it is Izuna?
Haha, I'm sorry that I lost you! I just want you to give me an explanation as to how Madara has been revived in a state seemingly very close to how he was when he fought Hashi. The fact that he was contradicts your reasoning that he lived for many years after his battle with Hashi, even though by his edo it seems as though he died very shortly after said battle.
Also, what are your reasons as to why you do not believe it is Izuna?
Lol I’m not sure if you’re serious, but that’s hardly evidence. xD But if you want to bring Shisui into this plot, let me help with that.
Here, I don’t think Kishi put this in without a reason, she says there may be a connection between the two.
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Now, what I discovered in this debate is that Kisame was 32 at his time of death. Subtract 16 years from that (The attack on Konoha) and he’s 16. He appears to be like eighteen to early twenties (Which would be something like 20-23) at the time he meets whoever is controlling Yagura. So that's like 2-7 years after fox attack.
Now, pay attention to Itachi’s words. “I couldn’t use it, at least not the, Shisui’s Mangyeko require at least another decade before it can activate again.”
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Itachi was like 12/13 at that time, he was most likely around five-six years old at the time of the fox attack. So that’s like 7 years later and add like another 1-2 years (The duration of peace before the fox attack) and you get like 8-9 years. And this means Shisui possibly used his MS which would take another ten years to use during a time of no war. Is this all a coincidence? I don’t think so, I don’t know how he ties into this, but I think he does. It appears that there's a possibility his MS was used around the time the 4th Mizukage was being controlled.
To make it a little more simple, there's roughly 8-9 years of peace from the time the war ended, to the time Shisui gave Itachi his eye. During ta time of no war, it's unlikely Shisui would risk using his MS.
Also, Kisame was 29-30 years old in part one, Sasuke was 13 at that time. And I think he was around 8 at the time of the massacre, and I believe Shisui gave Itachi his eye around the same time. So let's take five years off, making Sasuke 8 and Kisame 25-26. we know that there's no way Yagura was being controlled via KA if it was in Itachi's....wait a sec, oh shiz. O_O
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First, forget all the assumptions on Kisame's age that I made during his meeting with whoever that was.
We know that Itachi helped Tobi collect the all the tailed beast, correct? Whose to say that Itachi didn't loan Tobi Shisui's eye? Anything could have happened during the time Itachi had it. This was a loose eye after all.
Unless there's a timeline that disproves this beyond a doubt, I think it may even be true. *__*
And I already took into account that if Itachi gave Tobi his eye after the massacre, there would be no way for Itachi to have used it against himself if Tobi used it. But let's not forget, Danzo who had Hashi's dna, used it many times.
I messed up my previous post. -__-
EDIT: @FizzyDrink
This is what I don't understand, the manga basically says he lived afterwards, it also says he lived to meet Nagato. So either way, he either lived many years after to meet Nagato, which case, there's an aging issue regardless if I can explain it or not..
Then if you're saying it helps you by proving he died shortly afterwards, then that entire generation is brought closer to Madara's time, so it's still the same. You see my point? The fact that Madara spoke Nagato's name automatically protects my theory.
As for the Izuna theory, well Tobi is pretty much acting like he's nobody. Izuna and Madara was supposed to have always competed with one another, and if it is Izuna, then it just seems like...well...Madara made him his you know what, BIG TIME!
It just seems like he would have more pride than that because he appears to have none. :/
Also, what the heck happened to him? He can't use any jutsu at all...this is the biggest thing that makes me lean more toward the Obito theory.
Also if it is Izuna, you run into the same that you believe I face. How come he still looks so young? o.o
