Ending the Swamp of the Underworld technique myth

[Luminousi]

Thank you for clearing this up.

 

[Datguyjr]

Great explanation, +rep.

 

[warlee]

I do know the meaning of almost impossible but you see that in itself is exaggerated no different to the claim that amaterasu is as hot as the sun which the data book also states.

The description of the technique is from the link ive uploaded which is ripped from the databook

until a notion hasn't been shown to be exaggerated we can't say it's exaggerated. Yomi nomu has never been escaped even that path didn't did anything to it Check out this link

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this link says the more you struggle the more sink meaning you can't remove your hand or leg or you will just sink more, it even says you lose your strenght meaning you won't find the strenght to even remove your hand or leg when stuck. The link i posted even says impossible not almost impossible

 

[Beastbomb]

Huge effort on the explination, only one thing in one arc on the 1st serie's I remember Gamabunta running(or hopping) however you want to put it on the water thats if I remember correctly. Had a fair few marley's since then though so my memories are a little bit hazy but just pointing out that even some big summons have some chakra control anyway +rep for the correct explination.

 

[Blaze Release]

until a notion hasn't been shown to be exaggerated we can't say it's exaggerated. Yomi nomu has never been escaped even that path didn't did anything to it Check out this link

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this link says the more you struggle the more sink meaning you can't remove your hand or leg or you will just sink more, it even says you lose your strenght meaning you won't find the strenght to even remove your hand or leg when stuck. The link i posted even says impossible not almost impossible

Whilst i agree that until we have seen otherwise we cannot assume its exaggerated. But what do you say to tsukuyomi which has been broken. Amaterasu which has been evaded. Susano's arrow which has been evaded. Ct which has been destroyed. Shinra tensei which has been with stood. Susano which has been damaged.

What im basically saying is that in naruto all techniques can be countered and just because the swamp hasnt been countered doesnt mean it cannot. At least not after what ive explained in the op. At the highlighted part, im not sure where you got that link from, but ive given you a link to a ripped part of the databook which explains how the technique works. Size and depth matters if you are trying to sink an opponent and even that you can overcome it no different to what kakashi did

 

[Baka Sennin]

I don't agree.

first of all, the expelling chakra argument is invalid. Do you honestly believe Pain couldnt expel chakra from his hands? That only works when you're trying to stand on water or suspended horizontally or upside down, not against something that's trying to suck you in.

A better example would be Kisame's mizu bunshin. Gai and the others were unable to bust out of it, only Neji because of his ability to emit chakra from all over his body could. Similarly, it took a real effort from someone who is incredibly strong to pull out samehada from the toad bind. In short, comparing a swamp trying to suck you in to water is not a good example.

Furthermore, Jiraiya's swamp which sucked in Oro's snakes was made when he was drugged, and it was TINY by his own estimation. so imagine a much larger swamp, very very few people have shunshin good enough to escape that. Madara couldn't escape the mizukage's lava stream a dozen chapters back, and he's remarkably fast. and that wasn't even as large as the 'tiny' swamp jiraiya made.

That said, the technique isn't invincible, as it is probable that sufficeint strength is enough to pull yourself out of it. And i doubt that it could defeat a strong character by itself. However, don't kid yourself that it is easy to escape the technique, it is not. It's a very good strategic move, even if just to create an opening. It can work very well against all but the fastest characters, susanoo users etc (although susanoo has the strength to fight it's way out)

 

[Darkakatsuki]

Yeah what you said may or may not be possible, depending on what Kishi says, many people in the manga have fallen for jutsu that they could have easily avoided with one of their techs but Kishi just made those characters act ooc and just plain forget said ability.

There are some points I disagree with but most of what you said seems just about right.

By the way people like Kakashi, A and his dad, Bee, Darui, Sasuke, Mabui, etc could easily dispell that jutsu. Its an earth jutsu and raiton trumps earth. Kinda like how Sasuke was able to deactivate Deidara's bombs because he was using earth element to mold the clay, all they would have to do is channel raiton chakra into the ground and Jiraiya's tech would be stopped. A and his dad could even blitz him long before he activated it, afterall, not even Sasuke was able to mold hand seals when A activated version 2. KM Naruto would also avoid it with his speed or just simply pull himself out with his chakra arms. Yamato can grow trees out of the ground and use them to propell himself out. Kakuzu also has raiton and his threads could also pull him out.

Anyway the point is overall you're right, the swamp of the underworld would only work on low level opponents or maybe with prep time, although I think that pein's human path was a low level opponent. He and Naraka were pathetic in battle really, Naraka even lost to konohamaru.

Anyway rep for the effort and explanations.

 

[blazekev90]

I actually read it all and I agree with majority of the statements made, for my friend I give you credit!

 

[warlee]

Whilst i agree that until we have seen otherwise we cannot assume its exaggerated. But what do you say to tsukuyomi which has been broken. Amaterasu which has been evaded. Susano's arrow which has been evaded. Ct which has been destroyed. Shinra tensei which has been with stood. Susano which has been damaged.

What im basically saying is that in naruto all techniques can be countered and just because the swamp hasnt been countered doesnt mean it cannot. At least not after what ive explained in the op. At the highlighted part, im not sure where you got that link from, but ive given you a link to a ripped part of the databook which explains how the technique works. Size and depth matters if you are trying to sink an opponent and even that you can overcome it no different to what kakashi did

i know it can be countered we can't just speculate how and you write it up like every jounin (cous even genin know shushin and substitution) can countered it and the link is translation of direct japanese databook. The link you posted is wikia mine is direct databook translation which contain more information than yours. The tech mechanic is not what determines it is the users.

 

[Tec]

Ermm such a pointless thread really.

 

[Easyfathom]

Fair points an all. I mostly agree, I just think you have made sound easier then what it is too escape / avoid it.
But good effort on the thread

P.S when I read the title I guessed it was your thread xD

 

[The Eye]

This isnt really, telling us things we dont know? but i do know you put your time and effort into making these threads, so i will +rep you. Also we know that every jutsu has a weakness, so why dont you do a weakness of sasnoo next. Many people are still debating on it. Anyone itachi's, saskue, Madara. or all if you like.

Btw We do not know much about all the toads there but im pretty sure many of them have good chakra control. dont know if they all can transform on thier own.

 

[Blaze Release]

I don't agree.

first of all, the expelling chakra argument is invalid. Do you honestly believe Pain couldnt expel chakra from his hands? That only works when you're trying to stand on water or suspended horizontally or upside down, not against something that's trying to suck you in.

A better example would be Kisame's mizu bunshin. Gai and the others were unable to bust out of it, only Neji because of his ability to emit chakra from all over his body could. Similarly, it took a real effort from someone who is incredibly strong to pull out samehada from the toad bind. In short, comparing a swamp trying to suck you in to water is not a good example.

Furthermore, Jiraiya's swamp which sucked in Oro's snakes was made when he was drugged, and it was TINY by his own estimation. so imagine a much larger swamp, very very few people have shunshin good enough to escape that. Madara couldn't escape the mizukage's lava stream a dozen chapters back, and he's remarkably fast. and that wasn't even as large as the 'tiny' swamp jiraiya made.

That said, the technique isn't invincible, as it is probable that sufficeint strength is enough to pull yourself out of it. And i doubt that it could defeat a strong character by itself. However, don't kid yourself that it is easy to escape the technique, it is not. It's a very good strategic move, even if just to create an opening. It can work very well against all but the fastest characters, susanoo users etc (although susanoo has the strength to fight it's way out)

At the highlighted part each path has their own ability and this could be case.
Now that path was caught off guard and with that he sunk before he could constantly expel chakra. If you a ninja with excellent chakra control can stand on water, either chakra infused water or a lake, i see no reason why it cannot stand on a more solid surface such as mud.

Basically if that technique is already created, then yes i believe any ninja with precise chakra control can walk on it. If a ninja is caught off guard, their lower body will sink before they can expel chakra to their feet. And even that depending on the depth of the swamp they can recover and regain their composure.

Im not underestimating the technique because if it catches an opponent off caught and they arent fast enough to expel chakra to their feet and their lower body was to sink, they are vulnerable for the mean time

Yeah what you said may or may not be possible, depending on what Kishi says, many people in the manga have fallen for jutsu that they could have easily avoided with one of their techs but Kishi just made those characters act ooc and just plain forget said ability.

There are some points I disagree with but most of what you said seems just about right.

By the way people like Kakashi, A and his dad, Bee, Darui, Sasuke, Mabui, etc could easily dispell that jutsu. Its an earth jutsu and raiton trumps earth. Kinda like how Sasuke was able to deactivate Deidara's bombs because he was using earth element to mold the clay, all they would have to do is channel raiton chakra into the ground and Jiraiya's tech would be stopped. A and his dad could even blitz him long before he activated it, afterall, not even Sasuke was able to mold hand seals when A activated version 2. KM Naruto would also avoid it with his speed or just simply pull himself out with his chakra arms. Yamato can grow trees out of the ground and use them to propell himself out. Kakuzu also has raiton and his threads could also pull him out.

Anyway the point is overall you're right, the swamp of the underworld would only work on low level opponents or maybe with prep time, although I think that pein's human path was a low level opponent. He and Naraka were pathetic in battle really, Naraka even lost to konohamaru.

Anyway rep for the effort and explanations.

I agree that there are many techniques that can be countered and its all up to kishi, but that is due to plot. This is out of polt discussion explaining ways that a ninja can counter this technique. I couldve explained other ways in which it would prove ineffective but i just stuck to a couple. Another way is to harden the surface with any katon jutsu and with that if you arent able to use chakra control you'd be able to stand on it since the surface has harden due to fire

i know it can be countered we can't just speculate how and you write it up like every jounin (cous even genin know shushin and substitution) can countered it and the link is translation of direct japanese databook. The link you posted is wikia mine is direct databook translation which contain more information than yours. The tech mechanic is not what determines it is the users.

Yes im speculating, but never have i pulled anything out of anywhere. All ive said is straight from the manga. Anybody who has the sufficient ability to counter it can ,either a genin or a jonin. Example, genin's like jonin have extreme chakra control comparable to jonins. The link has showed you had reference from the databook although i agree that your link went into more detail

Ermm such a pointless thread really.

First of all i had reasons for creating it, might be pointless to you but not to others. Secondly if thats the case you shouldve either not entered or just ****ed off without leaving a comment.

 

[Blaze Release]

Fair points an all. I mostly agree, I just think you have made sound easier then what it is too escape / avoid it.
But good effort on the thread

P.S when I read the title I guessed it was your thread xD

Easy to escape, no. But against the cream of the crop of opponents it would be a waste of chakra imo. Jiraiya shouldve used it on all peins summonings, that wouldve made life easier for him to get into sm xd. Guess plot no jutsu took over :shrug:

At the highlighted part, i wonder why

This isnt really, telling us things we dont know? but i do know you put your time and effort into making these threads, so i will +rep you. Also we know that every jutsu has a weakness, so why dont you do a weakness of sasnoo next. Many people are still debating on it. Anyone itachi's, saskue, Madara. or all if you like.

Btw We do not know much about all the toads there but im pretty sure many of them have good chakra control. dont know if they all can transform on thier own.

Susano's weakness?. Im sure the manga has made it clear that it can be broken. Another weakness is the strain it has on its opponent. Another weakness is that in its incomplete form its vulnerable underneath. Who know's i might go into more details if i decide to create it

 

[Shisui Namikaze]

If it isn't a tech by itachi konan or kisame this guy will hate on it. Every time.

 

[Better]

what about sage mode? Toads can use that and that requires some chakra control or they'd all be stone frogs

 

[Blaze Release]

If it isn't a tech by itachi konan or kisame this guy will hate on it. Every time.

Nobody is hating on anything, Just hear people keep saying swamp of the underworld this swamp of the underworld that and against the very best of opponents it wouldnt prove successful

what about sage mode? Toads can use that and that requires some chakra control or they'd all be stone frogs

Already excluded ma and pa frog. Apart from them the large frog summonings arent sage's

 

[Better]

Nobody is hating on anything, Just hear people keep saying swamp of the underworld this swamp of the underworld that and against the very best of opponents it wouldnt prove successful



Already excluded ma and pa frog. Apart from them the large frog summonings arent sage's

but they can learn it i'm sure, that elder frog probably knows sage mode, i don't see a reason why they can't

 

[Necron]

Ive always heard people when discussing jiraiya's arsenal of techniques mention his swamp of the underworld technique (Doton: Yomi Numa) as if that technique is the be all and end all, not knowing that against any decent opponent it will prove ineffective.

This is the swamp of the underworld;

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Spoiler

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First thing ill discuss first is why this technique usually effective against large summonings. As ive shown you in the image above jiraiya used it against one of oro's snake summonings. Now answer me this, when have you ever seen a summoning demonstrate chakra control or any form of chakra control apart from intelligent summonings like ma & pa?. Basically large summonings arent very smart to master chakra control. Now gamabunta is a prime example, in the image below he said he cannot use the henge technique (transformation);

Spoiler

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Why isnt he good at using this technique?. Simple really, because the henge technique requires constant emission of chakra while mentally maintaining the form.

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This is what chakra control basically;

Spoiler

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Ibusi traning naruto in chakra control;

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Basically apart from the fact that chakra control is the ability to use ninjutsu's requiring the bare minimum of chakra needed its basically the ability to constantly emit chakra from any part of your body and this brings us back to the henge technique and this is why i gamabunta couldnt use the technique, because he sucks at chakra control.

Basically with excellent chakra control, you can master genjutsu, medic ninjutsu, walk upside down a tree and most importantly walk on water and this is the purpose of this thread.

Now ive showed you that summonings arent good at chakra control at all.
Secondly ive showed you that gathering of chakra from the feet is said to be very difficult and is even more difficult when trying it on water. Now that snake clearly isnt exactly a chakra control master he is a dumb large animal. Secondly its got no feet therefore how is it supposed to gather chakra by the feet?, the anser is it cannot, but there is one way in which it could've stayed on the surface of the body and this is how. Neji's kaiton (rotation) is the peak of chakra control because can expel chakra throughout his body;

Spoiler

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Now as its been said in the image above even a jonin can only release chakra from their hand or leg. But neji who had perfect chakra control even above a jonin was able to release it from his entire body.
Now if the snake who doesnt have any chakra control at all. Doesnt have feet meaning they cannot master constantly expelling chakra from their feet, they would have to master constantly expelling chakra from their entire body and as ive been said not even jonins can do this. What im trying to say is that this technique would work best on people who have little to know chakra control, either summonings or ninja's and that technique was basically made for that snake and other summonings.

There was one time where this technique was successful against a human. Although it was a dead one. But lets give jiraiya credit for effectively using it against one of the paths;

Spoiler

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Now that technique effective against a pein (why its eyes is closed ive no idea xd). Anyway that technique was effective because it was planned. In this chapter jiraiya uses a katon jutsu which filled the hallway, the only way to escape that katon was to stick to the celing and jiraiya had already used the swamp of the underworld ready for the path to dodge the katon and stick to ceiling;

Spoiler

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Now if you noticed the path had both its legs and hands in the mud meaning escaping is possible but its now harder, but the thing that got the path the most was that it got caught by surprise. If he knew about it, he wouldve constantly expelled chakra from his legs and with that that he wouldnt get caught.

Now if you notice the path had its hands also in the mud due to him taking a rather odd poster. He shouldve done this instead;

Spoiler

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With that he has his hands and with that can would still be able to counter the technique if caught off guards. One way to counter it is to use shunshin no jutsu;

Spoiler

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With shunshin the user can evade it.

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Another way to evade it is with the body replacement technique

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.

Spoiler

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With this technique lets say the swamp catches a ninja off guard and because of this their legs are already in the swamp before they can gather enough to walk on it. With this technique they can replace their body with an item.

Now lets say a ninja cannot use the body replacement or shunshin and was caught off guard therefore their legs is already in the mud before they can mold and expell chakra to their feet. Still with a bit of effort a ninja can regain their vulnerability and restore their composure, by pulling their legs out of the mud and then expelling chakra to their feet after they have pulled their legs out and with that should be able to stand on it. No different to what happened between zabuza and kakashi;

Spoiler

Zabuza before the fight released his chakra into the lake;

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Due to the release of chakra from the start by zabuza into the water, it made the water heavy and with that kakashi couldnt recover in time;

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If you noticed he was regaining his composure but due to the chakra infused water it made the water heavy and with that, it took longer to recover than usual. Its after naruto's plan was he able to recover and with that stand on chakra infused water;

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And im out :scorps:

Good points, +rep! ^^

 

[Blaze Release]

but they can learn it i'm sure, that elder frog probably knows sage mode, i don't see a reason why they can't

They could but its highly unlikely.
First of all they need to master chakra control and show the ability to transform, walk on water, walk upside down a tree. Then they have to try and balance their chakra with natural energy. I think thats too much for gamabunta and tbh it doesnt seem like the type to be asked.

The frog sage i suppose most likely knows sm, but it is a special case.
Seems even more bright than human xd