Ending the Senju/Uchiha debate

[LigerBomb]

I have been here for two years now.

I don't want to be a troll, but when I read this I can't help but _O-. Not that it's a bad thing, but I don't believe that being a member of a manga site for however long is has the serious-valid tone that you were aiming for.

 

[KiriyuSenju]

Wierd thing about this entire dicussion is that you are following the story which Tobi told. The one that apperantly hated the village the most. As Tobi is not Madara proven in the manga. Madara on the other hand is shown as a power hungry arrogant individual that appearantly knew Tobi as he said "This must be "his" doing" and that both are after the infinite tsukuyomi plan. Anyhow i believe how Tobi told the story is the story of hatred from the side of Madara and himself. Which makes me think its just a story to lead Sasuke into hating Konoha and be another heir of the "Curse of hatred" (Nikushimi no Noroi) I do not suggest of course that the entire story is fake either but im sure Tobi points out the worst parts just to anger Sasuke. When Tobirama was appointed to the second hokage during his reign he was primarily responsible for establishing Konoha's organisational system. He did this by setting up various organisations such as the Academy, the ANBU, the Chunin Exams and the Konoha Military Police Force, the latter of which he created as a sign of trust towards the Uchiha clan who made up the majority of that organisation. However, according to Tobi, the Police Force was actually established to distance the Uchiha from the government of the village and place the clan under a tight surveillance by the ANBU. I believe Tobi is the only one that wants to believe in that. Because Tobirama made the entire goverment system of konoha. The uchiha allready made up the majority of the police force, as tobirama gave them the police force it was simply to show trust in the Uchiha. I say neither Uchiha or Senju is more evil or better then any one else in Konoha or for that to say the entire Shinobi world. As in all people even in real, with power comes responsibility. There are some individuals in the Uchiha clan whom had immense talent, and i believe that talent afflicted their personality in the way of wanting more power and giving them a arrogant view of the world. Then when someone actually stood upto them and beat them. (Refering to Hashirama and the senju clan and Madara and the uchiha clan under the war torn era) It surely would cause grief and that for anyone in the same position. Which led Madara wanting more power and do everything in his might to achieve it as he took the power of the kyuubi and used it to fight hashirama. Madara was simply arrogant and power hungry not truelly evil. Tobi is probably the same. For Sasuke he is led to the side of evil, by tobi. Tobi is giving him his own hatred towards the village. So i believe much of what tobi said about the hokage's is false even itachi would have turned his back towards the village if their intensions were really that controlling and discriminating. And more i believe it was Danzo and his root anbu that held a close eye on the Uchiha, As they followed Danzo not the Hokage. Allso not everything in Tobi's story have to be false, maybe some of it is correct. But again i would say that they have all their own way of justice, pride, honor, and what they believe is correct. As all human's. So i will conclude by saying the Senju clan and Uchiha clan, are one and the same not evil nor good but human's and i belive kishimoto is trying to show this. Allso you must remember the uchiha and senju has allways been rivals due to the younger and older son of the sage of the six paths Rikudo. Which is why loosing to the senju was hard for madara to accept. My theory is that Madara's hatred led Tobi, and Sasuke into the same hate.

 

[Baldy]

They are twisted. Not really evil, its just their ideas and beliefs are completely wrong.

 

[Totsuka No Tsurugi]

senju and uchiha like oil and water there is no way for them get along, unless all the uchiha like itachi

 

[KiriyuSenju]

Of course because their rivalery started before their even was a senju and uchiha clan.

 

[Splendid Ninja]

Its about time this discussion gets put to rest. Its almost as if people cannot read, refuse to read and instead just look at the manga pics or are just plain ignorant. Either way ill enlighten you'll; the facts about the Uchiha and the Senju.

Now i keep hearing people saying that the uchiha were evil and the senju were good. Allow me annihilate that myth.

From what we know the senju offered the uchiha a peace treaty and the uchiha accpeted because they also wanted peace;

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From what we know the uchiha accepted hashirama the senju leader as the first hokage instead of their own leader madara;

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The uchiha turned their back on madara *(their leader) because they wanted peace;

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They started despise him due to his power hungry and war ways. Madara translanted this as them betraying him;

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So from what we know so far the uchiha also wanted peace and accepted the senju leader hashirama as the leader of the village over their own leader and later despised their leader as a power hungry war lover.

The second hokage trying to play nice and giving the uchiha a 'special' role;

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But this was the truth behind the so called special role;

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The uchiha were blamed/suspected of the fox's attack. This shows that whilst the uchiha had complete faith in the senju and accepted their leader as the hokage, the senju on the otherhand didnt trust the uchiha;

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They were further pushed into isolation;

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So from what we know the uchiha accepted the senju peace treaty because they always wanted peace. The stood behind the senju leader and cast away their own leader because they believe he was a power hungry war lover. It seems like whilst the uchiha fully trusted the senju, the senju didnt as tobirama has showed us with his so called special role and as the elders has shown us. They have been further isolated. From what we know which clan seem like the victims?.

The A coup D'etat was bound to happen sooner or later. Just imagine this in real life or relate it to history where a group of people have been discriminated for so long. They are eventually bound to respond. The fact that the uchiha have waited so long to finally respond says shows that they of all people have patience

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They took advantage of 12 year old due to his trauma;

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They abused his love for the village;

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And ordered him to wipe out his clan. His clan that had the right to finally stand up for themselves;

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Now that the Uchiha has had enough and have decided to stand up for themselves, now sarutobi wants to sort things out (not his fault though, be he is still the hokage he shouldve done something before all this);

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He was given the orders to kill everyone uchiha (who had the right to demand justice), but he couldnt kill sasuke;

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The only conciliation sarutobi could do was to protect sasuke from the elders, especially danzou;

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So tell me which clan seem victims. From what ive read it seems like the senju tricked the uhciha, this is debeatable though. From what ive seen its seems like they used the peace treaty as a strategy to form an alliance wit the uchiha to later slowly kill them off. When an uchiha (madara) saw what was happening the uchiha already trusted this peace treaty. When madara attacked and the 2nd hokage saw that they might be similar people following madara's footsteps he used a wise stragety with the special role nonsense.

How can Kushina say she was chosen to become a jinchurcki. How come she doesnt have a choice;

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Senju taking advantage of the uzumaki clan;

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Once naruto heard the truth, even he got worked up. Basically because they used his mother, similarly to the way itachi was used and abused (A hero was instead put into the bingo book to kill when encountered);

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So now they have taken advantage of the uchiha and uzumaki.

This is where you learn exactly what i mean. We all know about edo tensei.
In order to use it you have to use LIVE human beings as sacrifices. Now the second hokage Tobirama created such a technique. He mustve used live human beings either from the village, war prisoners. Either in order to create such a technique you have to have experimented;

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Even madara who has been considered evil frowned up such a technique;

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Seems like even a power hungry madara knew the limits, yet tobirama didnt and created such a kinjutsu (forbidden technique). I challenge you to name me a kinjutsu that is on par with edo tensei in terms of how evil and atrocious it is. What poeple dont understand is that the only true 'evil' uchiha's we know are madara and sasuke and in either case their arent evil.

Its this same technique that brought the downfall of sarutobi. This same technique that is currently being used by the opposition. Its this same technique that has brought fought an upgraded madara

Madara you might question him idea of peace, but in either case he seems to want peace. In sasuke's case, its due to a chain of events which caused him to become like this. His hate is stemmed from what the senju did. If the senju from the beginning had treated the uchiha fairly they wouldnt have tried to take over the village, therefore itachi's mission would also non-existent

 

[Baka Sennin]

no you're wrong. first of all, you're putting a lot of emphasis on tobi's words, who we all know took out what didn't suit him, like the kyuubi attack.

tobirama giving the uchiha the police force is very debatable. it's already been shown that the uchiha weren't forced to join there. as to creating IWR, he may have experimented with it, but he didn't even complete it, and he labelled it a kinjutsu to prevent others from using it. we don't even know if he made sacrifices or not, hiruzen didn't know sacrifices were made to create the two hokage, my guess is tobirama stopped developing the tech once realising that you need a sacrifice. He didn't create the seal to erase the reanimated one's will, so make of that what you will.

The segregation of the uchiha and the uchiha massacre, that had absolutely nothing to do with the senju. Sandaime was the ony remaining disciple of the Senju, and he opposed both choices, but was overruled. Danzo and the elders, who had miliaristic ideals, pushed through both choices (who does that ideology remind you of?)

furthermore, both choices were forces by actions taken by the uchiha. Tobi attacked Konoha, who can blame the elders for thinking the uchiha were behind it? that Hiruzen opposed the segregation is testament that the senju were good. And then, the uchiha again were attempting a coup d'etat, with hiruzen again opposing, and danzo, who had ideals similar to the uchiha's peace through power, overruling.

Tsunade, the last senju, supported naruto through and through when he was trying to save sasuke, one of the two remaining uchiha. this is confirmed by kakashi, who said that sasuke would have been eliminated much sooner if it weren't for tsunade. Danzo immediately sent an assasination order.

In the end, you're basing your assumptions on the bes manipulator in the Naruto universe. A person who attacked Konoha, killing many citizens, helped eradicate the uchiha himself, thinks nothing of killing helpless prisons like fu and torune,manipulated nagato's hatred of konoha, and manipulated sasuke and is pushing him to develop his hate. And by Tobi's own admissions, the hate all stems from the elder brother because he couldnt take the sage of six path's choice. So this all started from his bitterness and hatred, not because of the senju.

And Madara is corrupted by the Senju? even before the uchiha joined forces with the senju, he had already killed his best friend, and stolen his brothers eyes. before he left Konoha, he was seen opressing Iwakagure. After he left Konoha because he wasn't chosen for hokage, he returned and attacked with the Kyuubi in tow. Now, he is killing ninja simply to test out his powers. he's evil through and through.

oh, and tobi and madara are only planning to oppress the world with infinite tsukuyomi. Hashirama at least managed to obtain true peace for a while, before madara started causing havoc.

 

[Vayne]

u have a lot of flaws but the fox attack Masada/toninwas responsible and Toni is a liar so get it straight and nether clan arebevil they are just anime/human based on your reference to check history I say if u have been fighting with someone for years and the agree to make an alliance and u as leader u will get suspicious and as for the coup de tait it was reasonable to think that after being treated like animals your argument is invalid

 

[SoulHunt3r]

You're right and that points to my other statement about them not caring about the village or the innocent people in it. They should've known starting a coup would kill many innocent people and destroy the village but they wanted to go along with it anyway.

Madara brought down a meteor on a bunch of people and Sasuke killed Danzo, samurai, and tried to kill Sakura, Kakashi, and Naruto. I'm sorry but no matter how you look at it that's evil.

who made sasuke and madara evil??? that`s what i want to hear from you.

i will give you the answer: 1st hokage and 2nd hokage

 

[Totsuka No Tsurugi]

u have a lot of flaws but the fox attack Masada/toninwas responsible and Toni is a liar so get it straight and nether clan arebevil they are just anime/human based on your reference to check history I say if u have been fighting with someone for years and the agree to make an alliance and u as leader u will get suspicious and as for the coup de tait it was reasonable to think that after being treated like animals your argument is invalid

masada ? toni ?
LOL

 

[SoulHunt3r]

anyway blaze +rep

 

[KiriyuSenju]

I have seen no reference to them being treated as animals. Suspicion was only present with the elders which Hiruzen did not approve of. Of course their would be fear after all the years of war. The Senju wanted peace so did the Uchiha. Being afraid of each other is something they could not be blamed for, but atleast they tried something Madara did not. No one is truelly evil, the coup d'etat i believe was Danzo' and the elders fault whom followed their own sense of ideology which was controll.

 

[ganotsri]

so much speculation. No question good work to show how evil are Senju, but using your own examples... It is said that only "bad" senju is 1st and 2nd, as no one from the clan is figurative in the speech. One more interesting point you used links of Madara's talk with Sasuke, but as we now it is not true. I mean:
1) Fox appearance was not natural. It cost life to Jinchuriki and 4th. Yes Uchihas clan was aside, but their power first to be suspected.
2) It is only Madara's word that Uchiha cann't become part of government. And I am sure Madara pay a great role to make Uchiha think so. Even after "death". (But yes it is speculative)
3) Uchiha can't be Jinchuriki, as only Madara could control Fox. So I don't think that if they were told like, let Itachi kill Sasuke and obtain MS (or however, no difference), to become a "Fox manager".
So my opinion that Senju is not so bad as you show, however Uchiha are still victims. But victims of Madara how could not to forgive treachery of his clan. And obviously there was not treachery.
It seems you just do not want to use all facts. This is like Sasuke chose darkness.

 

[Blaze Release]

Whilst ive already agreed that what tobi said is up in the air, the other things ive listed is true. These being itachi's life and what the elders did, kushina not having a choice and leaving her village to become a jinchrucki and tobirama creating edo tensei

 

[LordHidan]

You can't have good without evil

 

[Uchiha Kentaro]

i understand +rep for that

 

[ronus]

Seems like you don't want any more of Naruto chapter... Evil prevails no matter what and of course from some point of view some one seems to be evil and other good..
When there is war, one side considers other to be evil as they are enemies and so does the other side. People should consider communication instead of using war to deal with conflict.. This is what happens in real life not in Manga..
Anyways what u have told is truth there is no denying it. But may be you should also consider that UHICHIA doesn't mean everything in Naruto and should stop treating them like GOD..

 

[KiriyuSenju]

I agree that Itachi's life became quite difficult. Danzo and the other elders whom had a wrong ideology and thus having this "fear" and "suspicion" upon the Uchiha clan is at fault indeed. But they dealt with it in their own way. Which Hiruzen opposed strongly. That had nothing with the Senju clanto do on the other hand. Its clearly stated that Tobirama whom devoloped "Edo Tensei" Only made a incomplete version of it. And its allso stated that he never did master it himself. There is no info about it getting far enough with it that human sacrifices was used. But i assume not reasoning it by Orochimaru using allso a incomplete version of it. As seen from how weak Hashirama and Tobirama was at that fight. Orochimaru had used alot of time to master it and devoloping it to this stage. Which still was incomplete. With the case of Kushina i must say its awful that she had to leave the village and forcely became the jinchuuriki. But what you must remember is that this happend during Hiruzen's reign as hokage. There is not any reference to him thinkin of it as a good or bad idea so we do not know. But my thought is that it would be logical if example they wanted a new Uzumaki as the host due to Mito being a excellent one. Only difference was that Mito was the host willingly due to her being the wife of Hashirama and had been living in Konoha. Kushina's case there is not any reference to it being Hiruzen's fault and there so it comes down to assumptions again.

 

[Onion Soda]

The matter of the special discriminatory role is a thing sayed by tobi, a guy with an high grade of superbia, knewed liar and facts manipulator. Also, the thing of IWR was created with war prisoners;
this isn't My litle pony, war prisioners gets tortured phisical and psicologically even nowaday at Konoha in a "peaceful era",
You shouldn't forgot the will of fire, and two of the guys you pointed are strong devoted followers wich contradicts the thing of clan-silent-genocide and discrimination. Off course not all the Uchiha are power hungry bastards, but pretty much of them are that.

 

[ganotsri]

Whilst ive already agreed that what tobi said is up in the air, the other things ive listed is true. These being itachi's life and what the elders did, kushina not having a choice and leaving her village to become a jinchrucki and tobirama creating edo tensei

Itachi's life is still somehow unclear for me at list...
As for Kushina I have an argument not to agree with you, as you should remember she was trained to become a Jinchuriki, and what more (forget the name of Hashirama's wife) She prepare Kushina by showing her true love. (please don't get me wrong) So Kushina was kinda ready to become a Jinchuriki opposite Naruto. And one more time, Kushina was the most suitable vessel for Fox, taking into account amount of chakra and clans specialization, and of course blood relations to Senju and SO6P respectively.
And your one of the strongest argument against Tobirama. Yes he created, but I think it can be useful if we know, what mean Oro telling that it was incomplete. If I remember correctly it means Tobirama did not took the will of Edo. And he KINed it by himself (if wrong correct me) so he understood that it is not proper jutsu.