I did read your post by the way. I just don't like it when people (Owarij namely) tell me something that the manga didn't actually say. :shrug: Sorry you thought I was trolling or flaming. U_U
Ending the Kisame vs Jiraiya debate
- Thread starter Blaze Release
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Urda
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I agree to some extent and respect your opinion. +Reps.
I'm thinking by each scenario, it's basically, which one makes the first move gets the upper advantage in the battle: Kisame Ocean Technique and/or Kisame infused with Samehade or Jiraiya Sage Mode and other techniques. It also depends on the geographical area and/or space which can be used as an tactical maneuver for either one of them. Also, any kind injury or even chakra means nothing during combat because they both have healing abilities and accesses to chakra sources do to their respective weapons and allies.
Underline: Though not stated in your post, Sage Mode requires Ma and Pa to sync with Jiraiya because Jiraiya lacks the training. I'm sure that the reason why you exclude them out was because that will give Jiraiya the upper advantage in fighting. Combat wise.
However, you have to look at the characteristics such as, Jiraiya Sage Mode with the help of Ma and Pa. These characters play an important role in helping Jiraiya build and control nature enegry. Their support will change, or could change, the outcome of the battle. Meaning, that their support would be used to summon Animals such as the Toads (Frogs), weapons for aid, or extra battle strength (Ninjutsu).
That want be consider fair but that the uniqueness to his Sage Mode, just like Samehade is unique to Kisame while fuse.
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Kisame still takes time to fuse with Samehade and Jiraiya with Sage Mode, but Jiraiya takes longer. Within that time frame, who knows want can happen. All we can do is give opinions and speculate what might could happen between the two. It's a 50/50 chance that the battle win goes to Jiraiya or Kisame. It might surprise us if they both killed each other. Overall, I say the battle can go either-way.
I want consider no one equal, but Naruto and Sasuke (Maybe).
I'm thinking by each scenario, it's basically, which one makes the first move gets the upper advantage in the battle: Kisame Ocean Technique and/or Kisame infused with Samehade or Jiraiya Sage Mode and other techniques. It also depends on the geographical area and/or space which can be used as an tactical maneuver for either one of them. Also, any kind injury or even chakra means nothing during combat because they both have healing abilities and accesses to chakra sources do to their respective weapons and allies.
Underline: Though not stated in your post, Sage Mode requires Ma and Pa to sync with Jiraiya because Jiraiya lacks the training. I'm sure that the reason why you exclude them out was because that will give Jiraiya the upper advantage in fighting. Combat wise.
However, you have to look at the characteristics such as, Jiraiya Sage Mode with the help of Ma and Pa. These characters play an important role in helping Jiraiya build and control nature enegry. Their support will change, or could change, the outcome of the battle. Meaning, that their support would be used to summon Animals such as the Toads (Frogs), weapons for aid, or extra battle strength (Ninjutsu).
That want be consider fair but that the uniqueness to his Sage Mode, just like Samehade is unique to Kisame while fuse.
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Kisame still takes time to fuse with Samehade and Jiraiya with Sage Mode, but Jiraiya takes longer. Within that time frame, who knows want can happen. All we can do is give opinions and speculate what might could happen between the two. It's a 50/50 chance that the battle win goes to Jiraiya or Kisame. It might surprise us if they both killed each other. Overall, I say the battle can go either-way.
I want consider no one equal, but Naruto and Sasuke (Maybe).
UzumakiNaruto20
Active member
Actually some frogs are very good swimmers, especially the ones with webbed hands and feet. But I don't know how good the big toads are at swimming so I don't have anything else to say about that.
1) You admitted in a thread (won't go for the link, don't feel like it) that Kisame is your 3rd fav character. Can you really be impartial?
2) There's no certainty about the outcome of a fight between those two (Kishi) but here a few facts that you obviously chose to ignore.
Kisame has 2 affinities but so far he did use Doton once. You can assume that he's not as ease with as he is with Suiton. And even if he is, Jiraya is 50 with Katon and Doton affinities. Older means more experience,more time to master those 2 elements.I assume you don't believe that the justsu he cast to get rid of Oro's snakes are the only Doton tech he has, and that you are well aware that at that time he was at 10% of his potential (To the manga). The Third had Doton affinity, Jiraya was his student, one Doton jutsu?!!!! So Jiraya: strong Doton techs;Doton > Suiton. So my point is: does Kisame mastered Doton enough to be a match for Jiraya? Dunno. Do you?
3) As for summonings, I believe it is clear that they use chakra. Chakra => Chakra affinity. This is just hypothetical but we can assume that they are Frogs with Katon/Doton/Futon/Raiton affinities. But we do know that they - at least one of them - use Suiton (Gamabunta vs Shukaku). With Bunta Jiraya can use combined techs. Suiton + Doton, Katon + oil. You seemed pretty sure that Kisame's Suiton could overcome a Katon + oil jutsu , how can you? Perhaps you know the components of that "oil". I do not and I know that sometimes water can't put out fire.
4) Jiraya has intel on Kisame. And he is not some moron that would stay aside and let Kisame cast Suiton jutsu and gain advantage. (Genin at 6, Sannin, 2 wars, 50 years old).
5) As for Sage Mode: Jiraya can't enter SM coz Kisame fuses with Samehada in seconds, would keep him busy. Right. But I assume he is a idiot that would not figure out that this situation is the exact opposite of Naruto vs Kabuto: Naruto needed to immobilize Kabuto in order to use the rasengan/Jiraya needs to stand still in order to enter SM but Kisame keeps him moving. So the idea of using a Shadow Clone (exp return to the caster) to gather natural energy while fighting would not occur to him.
6) Jiraya gathers too much NE so his SM is toad like. All he has to do if Kisame don't know about that,is to gather some and let Kisame have a taste of it. ( Kisame absorbs chakra, that's a side of his fighting style). And then the world would a toadsharklikestone monument.
7) Jiraya weakness is genjutsu. Kisame don't use genjutsu. As for that part, I assume you don't believe that their song is the only genjutsu Ma and Pa can use.
8) They are both strong and the outcome of a battle depends of too many parameters.
You used points that only went on your side. I can understand that it hurts your feelings to see one of your fav characters underrated. But I'm sorry. There's also args for Jiraya being > Kisame.
2) There's no certainty about the outcome of a fight between those two (Kishi) but here a few facts that you obviously chose to ignore.
Kisame has 2 affinities but so far he did use Doton once. You can assume that he's not as ease with as he is with Suiton. And even if he is, Jiraya is 50 with Katon and Doton affinities. Older means more experience,more time to master those 2 elements.I assume you don't believe that the justsu he cast to get rid of Oro's snakes are the only Doton tech he has, and that you are well aware that at that time he was at 10% of his potential (To the manga). The Third had Doton affinity, Jiraya was his student, one Doton jutsu?!!!! So Jiraya: strong Doton techs;Doton > Suiton. So my point is: does Kisame mastered Doton enough to be a match for Jiraya? Dunno. Do you?
3) As for summonings, I believe it is clear that they use chakra. Chakra => Chakra affinity. This is just hypothetical but we can assume that they are Frogs with Katon/Doton/Futon/Raiton affinities. But we do know that they - at least one of them - use Suiton (Gamabunta vs Shukaku). With Bunta Jiraya can use combined techs. Suiton + Doton, Katon + oil. You seemed pretty sure that Kisame's Suiton could overcome a Katon + oil jutsu , how can you? Perhaps you know the components of that "oil". I do not and I know that sometimes water can't put out fire.
4) Jiraya has intel on Kisame. And he is not some moron that would stay aside and let Kisame cast Suiton jutsu and gain advantage. (Genin at 6, Sannin, 2 wars, 50 years old).
5) As for Sage Mode: Jiraya can't enter SM coz Kisame fuses with Samehada in seconds, would keep him busy. Right. But I assume he is a idiot that would not figure out that this situation is the exact opposite of Naruto vs Kabuto: Naruto needed to immobilize Kabuto in order to use the rasengan/Jiraya needs to stand still in order to enter SM but Kisame keeps him moving. So the idea of using a Shadow Clone (exp return to the caster) to gather natural energy while fighting would not occur to him.
6) Jiraya gathers too much NE so his SM is toad like. All he has to do if Kisame don't know about that,is to gather some and let Kisame have a taste of it. ( Kisame absorbs chakra, that's a side of his fighting style). And then the world would a toadsharklikestone monument.
7) Jiraya weakness is genjutsu. Kisame don't use genjutsu. As for that part, I assume you don't believe that their song is the only genjutsu Ma and Pa can use.
8) They are both strong and the outcome of a battle depends of too many parameters.
You used points that only went on your side. I can understand that it hurts your feelings to see one of your fav characters underrated. But I'm sorry. There's also args for Jiraya being > Kisame.
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Let me just say well done for effort. +rep.
Overall, I'd have to agree with your points but, I don't know, I just still feel Jiraiya wouldn't be beaten by Kisame. I guess seeing Jiraiya vs Pain just doesn't allow me to believe Jiraiya would lose to Kisame, considering Pain was the strongest of the Akatsuki. But good argument nonetheless, it has convinced partially.
Overall, I'd have to agree with your points but, I don't know, I just still feel Jiraiya wouldn't be beaten by Kisame. I guess seeing Jiraiya vs Pain just doesn't allow me to believe Jiraiya would lose to Kisame, considering Pain was the strongest of the Akatsuki. But good argument nonetheless, it has convinced partially.
Blaze Release
Active member
Jiraiya even when sync with pa and ma still goes a partial transformation regardless. I do however agree that with them on his shoulders they would advice hi,. but i did include them when i talked about the genjutsu. Ive already explained the issue of summoning i believe and sm. Kisame doesnt take long at all to fuse with samahada, infact its a matter of seconds whilst i cannot say the same with jiraiya and sm. I do however agree that the battle can go either way, saying that due to one party being able to get into their mode alot quicker gives them the advnatage
My fav characters change accordingly. The only two that stick is itachi being first followed by sasuke. Its due to a number of reasons that has made kisame one of my favourite characters and also i like defeating strong underrated characters especially when they have great feats that are ignored. As i said both are doton users, but both have only showed us 1 doton each therefore we cannot speculate on either sides. You havent come up with a argument tbh.
I do however acknowledge that this fight isnt as simple as some jiraiya supporters say it is
Edit: next time split your text man, its easier to read xd
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Itachi Namikaze
Active member
*sigh* i thought my thread creating days was over, but recently ive been forced to create a few. What i will say is that before you repeat what kisame said in part 1, bare in mind that, not only has everybody gotten stronger in part 2 we have seen more techniques demonstrated, Infact this this the thread for you on this issue;You must be registered for see links. Basically come up with strong arguments instead of this. Similarly dont say because gai > klisame, jiraiya > kisame. If thats the case, then kisame > bee, gai > kisame, are you telling me gai > bee, off course not. Neither logic in this thread is needed so it would be best to leave it out U_U.
Im going to talk about 2 possible scenario's going by techniques shown so far. The first one being base jiraiya vs kisame (fused with samahada) and sm jiraiya vs kisame (fused with samahada).
Scenario 1 - Base jiraiya vs kisame (fused with samahada). Reason being i do not believe jiraiya would get into sm and youd see why, i will explain the reason why jiraiya was able to get into sm against pein along the way;
We know that majority of fights take place in open space and only a minority of fights take place in an enclosed space. Only examples i can think of is the chunnin exam fights and sasori vs chiyo and sakura. The chances of this fight taking place in open space is very plausible. We also know that kisame before he fights creates a large amount of water in order to feel right at home.
Against team gai;
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Against bee;
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There is a high chance that if these two meet in would be in open space but going by kisame's fighting style, they would be fighting in water. I believe this is very accurate.
Jiraiya would need sm to defeat a fellow ninja who defeated the 4 tailed jinchrucki and complained about a being a little tired. He also defeat bee who was saved at the last moment. But jiraiya cannot get into sm again kisame and this is why. Jiraiya was able to get into sm against pein because nagato used 1/6 of his power (animal realm only);If nagato had used all his power and summoned the 6 path, jiraiya wouldve been defeated in base. Secondly the environment greatly helped him. The environment was made up of hiding places in which he was allowed to enter and activate sm;You must be registered for see images
Jiraiya had the advantage of nagato fighting with only 1/6 of his power, but also had places to hide in order to activate sm. How many fights have we seen where there are places to hide. In most fighting scenes there isnt a place to hide. Against kisame he doesnt have this advantage.You must be registered for see images
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Now alot of people would say he can summon a toad of army to fight for him whilst he gets into sm. There are a couple of things wrong with this, first of all summoning technique takes alot of chakra depending on the size and quantity of the summonings. We saw in part 1 that naruto himself has a high chakra reserve and infact gets a 4/5 in the databook;
You must be registered for see links. We also saw how much clones he can create with his chakra;
But even he needed the fox's chakra in order to able to summon gamabunta;You must be registered for see images
Similarly against gaara, it was because of the fox that allowed naruto to summon gamabunta;You must be registered for see images
Jiraiya pushed him off a cliff all in the hope that the fear of death would lead him to use the fox's chakra in order to summon gamabunta;
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Fox's chakra;
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Gamabunta summoned;
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Similarly before minato was able to transport the fox and himself out of konoha he said he needed to master enough chakra;
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What im trying to say is that summoning techniques or s/t techniques that transports large size's of objects take a huge chunk of the users chakra, depending on the size and quantity and this is one of the reasons i believe this is jiraiya just summoned 1 frog because if he was to summon 2 more making it 3, he wouldnt be able to get into sm because 3 huge frogs would take roughly 2/3 of his chakra and with this cannot go into sm. People seem to forget the requirement of sm therefore let me explain.
Chakra is made up of physical and spiritual energy and both combined is what allows a ninja to use ninjutsu. Sm DOESNT grant the user infinate chakra but rather the user combines natural energy with their chakra (physical and spiritual) which enhances their techniques (ninjutsu, taijutsu and genjutsu);
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Now sm as i said is a combinaion of your chakra (spiritual and physical) and natural energy. Now as its been said keeping all three balanced in nearly impossible. Too little and you cannot use sm. Too much and you'd turn into a frog;
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This is why its for people with high chakra reserve, so that they can balance the natural energy with their chakra;
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If jiraiya has already used alot of his chakra on summonings and was to use sm, his little chakra left isnt enough to balance it with natural energy. He is bound to turn into a frog. Lets not forget that jiraiya receives part transformation already because he hasnt mastered it;If you add the fact that he would be low on chakra, he is bound to turn into a frog.You must be registered for see images
Lets say jiraiya summons. First of all large summons arent effective against ninja's, but here we go. From what we know of kisame before he fights he creates large mass of water. Therefore its likely that if jiraiya was to summon gamabunta and 2 other toads his lower body (feet) would be in water. If kisame was to summon sharks;You must be registered for see images
Or;You must be registered for see images
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Then can easily nibble on gamabunta's feet. Gamabunta and jiraiya's collabination techniques are fire techniques and against one of the best if not the best suiton user in the series with a stupidly large chakra reserve, he is countering this. Kisame has also shown great strength with large animals, which leads me to believe that he can out muscle gamabunta;
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Could argue gamabunta is bigger though U_U. More of kisame's strength feats;You must be registered for see links
If jiraiay was to collaborate with the frog's gamabunta;
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Kisame can use;
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Not only is suiton > katon, kisame attack would greatly do damage because jiraiya's attack is made of chakra
Apparently jiraiya can use this technique to stall kisame. Swamp of the underworld;
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First of all that attack is only useful to stop large targets, but also kisame due to his water release ninjutsu's can float above the technique;You must be registered for see images
He can also manoeuvre in the swamp of the underworld with his Doton Subterranean VoyageYou must be registered for see links
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People also think that kisame is just a suiton element user.
Kisame is a doton and suiton element user;You must be registered for see links
Jiraiya is a katon and doton user;
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Kisame's (suiton) > jiraiya (katon). Both are doton users, but the only problem is that both have only used one earth release technique. Jiraiya's being the swamp of the underworld and kisame's being Doton Subterranean Voyage
If jiraiya was to use;
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We do know that due to kisame's stupidly high chakra reserve's can create his own water. We also know that the oeso****us is a wall of meat. Are you telling me that techniques such as;
Water release 5 feeding sharks
Water release, 'ten thousand FEEDING sharks' cannot devour the wall of MEAT;. 1000 feeding shark will easily fill up the technique and either eat their way out of the technique therefore kisame escapes or they can eat devour the technique along with jiraiyaYou must be registered for see images
Water Release: Great Exploding Water Colliding Wave (technique he used on bee, the raccoon and the other guy. Such amount of water is bound to eventually make the wall of meet explode. Infact if kisame was to use such a technique in the oeso****us he could turn jiraiya's technique against him because if the oeso****us is filled with water, jiraiya cannot breath underwater whilst kisame can. if he fuses with samahada his speed and strength increases whilst inside the water in the oeso****us, jiraiya's best bet is to release the techique in order for the water to escape, but also allow him to breath );
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If needed Water Release: Great Shark Bullet Technique (technique he used on gai but didnt prove effective because gai's uses taijutsu. Read exactly what how the technique works);
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Alot of people can say jiraiya can use oil technique, but we know that the isnt doing any good. If lets say jiraiya was to use his oil technique (similar way bee did with his ink) in order to get away from kisame;
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in order to use sm, kisame fused with samahada can sense chakra in the water;
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Finally whilst jiraiya starts in base, kisame can upgrade in seconds into his very own sm when he fuses with samahada. After when he fuses he gains sensory abilities, speed and strength upgrade. Just like sage mode. Whilst jiraiya is in base. Lets not underrate kisame's speed and pursuing abilities;
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He didnt give bee any breathing space at all (literally) and was all over him. Now if bee another top class ninja suffered this much and he was in v2 tailed beast mode, tell me what jiraiya in base mode can do. All of what ive explained is why i believe kisame would beat jiraiya, because he wouldnt be able to get into sm.
Scenario 2- This is if jiraiya gets in SM. Highly unlikely imo, but i like to compromise. So basically its sm jiraiya vs kisame fused with samahada. As i noted earlier they have similar abilities in their enhanced form.
Jiraiya in sm has frog katas and the frog genjutsu but neither would work on kisame for different reasons. First of all frog katas is taijutsu. We saw during base kisame vs 7 gates gai that taijutsu isnt doing kisame in base any harm therefore fused with samahada it definitely isnt doing much;You must be registered for see images
Secondly afternoon tiger was said to be a 1 hit k.0 technique and i need not show you that kisame wasnt exactly dead. Infact he had more than enough energy to break free from yamato's mokouton. If 7 gates gai's taijutsu which i believe is superior in speed and strength to frog kata's isnt doing any harm to kisame, frog katas isnt either;
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If for whatever reason he gets damaged with frog katas he gain recover;
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As he said the stronger his opponent, the stronger he becomes. I never tire and i never fall
Secondly the frog genjutsu can be countered. Firstly its a sound genjutsu, meaning if you cannot hear it you cannot be caught. Secodnly it can be cancelled. But lets talk about the environment in which jiraiya used it against the paths. Jiraiya was in a tunnel when he used the frog genjutsu. Now we know that in a tunnel, sound would echo and with this increases the volume. Meaning the technique becomes louder and therefore stronger;
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In open space, in most battles there isnt such a hideout to use this genjutsu. Secondly in open space sound volume decreases and going by the frogs reaction, they do not have not only like using this genjutsu, but also they dont have the voice to increase the volume of the technique;
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Now as i said its a sound genjutsu which takes effect through your hearing. But you see kisame being underwater and the frog being on surface, kisame would easily evade the genjutsu because depending on the volume and how deep kisame is underwater he cannot hear sound on the surface;
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Now im no saying for definite that kisame > jiraiya because only kishi has the answer to that. What i am saying is that if you look at his abilities and what he has accomplished, defeating the 4 tailed jinchrucki and complaining about being a little bit tired but also defeating bee (who i think should beat jiraiya), i believe kisame is greatly underrated and whenever i see a thread including him and jiraiya people only mention what he says in part 1 and totally forget his impressive feats in part2. After all its in part 2 that we finally saw what he is made of.
Damn this took long. Please read and savour everything
It is a well thought out analysis, and I agree with you for the most part, but you forgot about Jiraiya's barrier that he used against Pain. He hid in it for a while, and it is like the Sound 4's barrier, it kills whoever tries to get through it.
He could always hide in that to get into SM.
As for SM, we know that if Kisame tries to absorb his chakra either he or Samehada will be turned to stone, even if he us just absorbing his chakra through the water in his water dome. So once Jiraiya is in SM, that water dome will be a detriment to Kisame.
Like you said though the problem is Jiraiya getting into sage mode, and if he isn't smart about it, and doesn't hide in either his toad gourd prison, or that barrier, then he can't win.
He could always hide in that to get into SM.
As for SM, we know that if Kisame tries to absorb his chakra either he or Samehada will be turned to stone, even if he us just absorbing his chakra through the water in his water dome. So once Jiraiya is in SM, that water dome will be a detriment to Kisame.
Like you said though the problem is Jiraiya getting into sage mode, and if he isn't smart about it, and doesn't hide in either his toad gourd prison, or that barrier, then he can't win.
I am not arguing with you. You have your ideas and I respect that. I just wanted to show you that there's things that can be said in the other side. Brought facts. Whether you choose to ignore them....
You'll not end the Kisame vs Jiraya debate coz everyone has his opinion as valuable as yours and we're in a world that values freedom of speech.
You'll not end the Kisame vs Jiraya debate coz everyone has his opinion as valuable as yours and we're in a world that values freedom of speech.
Blaze Release
Active member
Nice use with the barrier technique, but if kisame can sense chakra fused with samahada, he should be able to sense the barrier. Similarly if kisame was in base is the only time he can use samahada to try and absorb chakra and i agree that in that case samahada would turn to stone, most likely. But if fused with samahada he hasnt shown to be able to absorb chakra, because he is already fused. If jiraiya was to get into sm, i might say this fight can go either way because as ive demonstrated frog katas isnt killing kisame and ive already explained about the sound genjutsu
Blaze Release
Active member
Even better but his strength in taijutsu increases greatly with sm, therefore it has the same effect of frog kata in a way.
zombiejesus
Active member
Blaze Release
Active member
Maybe because 1000 sharks would be waiting for them U_U.
Dude you said you didnt read the op therefore you dont understand what is going on
zabuzamistboy
Active member
Kisame for the wins and this is why
Water Release: Great Exploding Water Colliding Wave
Water Prison Shark Dance Technique
Water Release: A Thousand Feeding Sharks
Water Release: Five Feeding Sharks
And the fact that J man majority of element in jutsu is fire. And not only that,
I believe that Kisame actually has the chakra to spam it all off too.
Water Release: Great Exploding Water Colliding Wave
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Water Prison Shark Dance Technique
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Water Release: A Thousand Feeding Sharks
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Water Release: Five Feeding Sharks
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And the fact that J man majority of element in jutsu is fire. And not only that,
I believe that Kisame actually has the chakra to spam it all off too.
blackbird31468
Active member
Kisame's great water exploding colliding wave does not float off the ground, it's on the ground and moves so Kisame is always in the middle. Swamp of the underground that we've seen was used when Jiraiya was at 30% power and he himself called it small. I believe a full powered one would be big enough to stop exploding water colliding wave since it's going to be on top of it and be pulled down. I also would like to remind you that when Kisame is fused with Samehada he and is under water he breaths under water. Now if Jiraiya filled the Daibaku Suishouha with oil (with shadow clones or Gamabuta) wouldn't make it very difficult for Kisame to breath? Kisame is basically a shark and fish dies in oil spills right.
Jiraiya can use Kekkai • Gama Hyourou (barrier technique. Jiraiya utilizes a gourd in the shape of a toad. Jiraiya has the ability to enter the gourd along with an opponent, who he can imprison within the gourd. The lake within the gourd acts like an acid, digesting anything swallowed by the toad) to trap and kill Kisame in like he did with one of Pain's bodies.
Jiraiya can use Ranji Shigumi no Jutsu (After forming the needed hand seals, Jiraiya will lengthen his hair and send it outwards to subdue his foe. If he manages to trap them within his hair, he can make it harden into spikes to kill them.)
If Kisame gets to close to Jiraiya, Jiraiya can use Ninpou: Kaeru Kaeru no Jutsu (a Ninjutsu used by Jiraiya. Using his connection to toads, Jiraiya will form a hand seal and then touch the forehead of his target, turning them into a frog. This jutsu is useful as a means to scare another into talking. he just need to create the moment to use it. Shadow clones with Kunias attack Kisame and with a surprise attack it can work.)
With Gamaguchi Shibari (a Ninjutsu that transforms the surrounding area into the eso****us of a toad summoned from Myouki Mt. Rock Inn. By forming the needed handseals and then touching the ground, Jiraiya transforms the surroundings into a soft maleable organ which he can manipulate at will. This ability to manipulate allows him to bind and hold the opponents he faces.) Jiraiya with shadow clones can close the walls on Kisame, enclosing him to be digested. In the anime it shows Jiraiya make snake-like tenicules attack so he can use this to grab and bind Kisame for attacks. The stomach started cover Kisame feet in part 1 before they ran away so staying in one place for too long and he can be trapped. As to a counter against water attacks: The moment Kisame start to make water Jiraiya will use oil to mix with Kisame's water then have the toad stomach spilt fire and roast Kisame. (Note oil+water=flamable, so any water jutsus would just help Jiraiya's attack.). Kisame can't use any water jutsus without water there and I just said how they can be stopped. The Moment Kisame start to make hand sighs, he'll lose Samehada in the same way Sasuke was pulled into the toad stomach. A clone would control the toad stomach while Jiraiya and other clones counter attack. Either one can win with the right strategy.
Why wouldn't frog kata work? Isn't it an attack that kills most 1 K.O? And it doesn't have to hit you directly, Kisame was hit by an attack that wasn't an instant kill (Sasuke was hit by the same attack and lived to) so wouldn't 2 or 3 hit be enough? Also you said sound genjutsu wouldn't work on/in water but I remember during the Chunin exam,there was a sound ninja that uses sound jutsus to attack and when he fought Choji he said water conducts sound so I'm going with frog song working on/in water.
Jiraiya can use Kekkai • Gama Hyourou (barrier technique. Jiraiya utilizes a gourd in the shape of a toad. Jiraiya has the ability to enter the gourd along with an opponent, who he can imprison within the gourd. The lake within the gourd acts like an acid, digesting anything swallowed by the toad) to trap and kill Kisame in like he did with one of Pain's bodies.
Jiraiya can use Ranji Shigumi no Jutsu (After forming the needed hand seals, Jiraiya will lengthen his hair and send it outwards to subdue his foe. If he manages to trap them within his hair, he can make it harden into spikes to kill them.)
If Kisame gets to close to Jiraiya, Jiraiya can use Ninpou: Kaeru Kaeru no Jutsu (a Ninjutsu used by Jiraiya. Using his connection to toads, Jiraiya will form a hand seal and then touch the forehead of his target, turning them into a frog. This jutsu is useful as a means to scare another into talking. he just need to create the moment to use it. Shadow clones with Kunias attack Kisame and with a surprise attack it can work.)
With Gamaguchi Shibari (a Ninjutsu that transforms the surrounding area into the eso****us of a toad summoned from Myouki Mt. Rock Inn. By forming the needed handseals and then touching the ground, Jiraiya transforms the surroundings into a soft maleable organ which he can manipulate at will. This ability to manipulate allows him to bind and hold the opponents he faces.) Jiraiya with shadow clones can close the walls on Kisame, enclosing him to be digested. In the anime it shows Jiraiya make snake-like tenicules attack so he can use this to grab and bind Kisame for attacks. The stomach started cover Kisame feet in part 1 before they ran away so staying in one place for too long and he can be trapped. As to a counter against water attacks: The moment Kisame start to make water Jiraiya will use oil to mix with Kisame's water then have the toad stomach spilt fire and roast Kisame. (Note oil+water=flamable, so any water jutsus would just help Jiraiya's attack.). Kisame can't use any water jutsus without water there and I just said how they can be stopped. The Moment Kisame start to make hand sighs, he'll lose Samehada in the same way Sasuke was pulled into the toad stomach. A clone would control the toad stomach while Jiraiya and other clones counter attack. Either one can win with the right strategy.
Why wouldn't frog kata work? Isn't it an attack that kills most 1 K.O? And it doesn't have to hit you directly, Kisame was hit by an attack that wasn't an instant kill (Sasuke was hit by the same attack and lived to) so wouldn't 2 or 3 hit be enough? Also you said sound genjutsu wouldn't work on/in water but I remember during the Chunin exam,there was a sound ninja that uses sound jutsus to attack and when he fought Choji he said water conducts sound so I'm going with frog song working on/in water.
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Sasuno Tsawaki
Member
Hmmmmm.........its jiraiya because i remember that his toad (i forgot his name) can evaporate the water with toad oil fire or what ever it was called when naruto was fighting the 3rd tailbeast
lXxNaGaToxXl
Active member
nice thread. but i have to disagree. people vastly underrate jiraiya. kisame is one of my favorite characters so is j-man. kisame to me is not on par with jirayia. if j man some how slips into sage mode what would kisame do? he cant absorb his character and the longer the fight last the stronger j-man gets. base j-man would beat base kisame. the only way i see kisame winning is fusing and try to take out j-man quickly. but no one knows what would happen if these two would fight im sure j-man has more techniques and kisame, the outcome would depend on a lot of things. but this is just my opinion only kishi can say who would win.
lXxNaGaToxXl
Active member
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