Ending the Itachi vs. Kakashi debate Part 1: 3T Kakashi > 3T Itachi
- Thread starter Ghost in the Shell
- Start date
- Status
Ghost in the Shell
Active member
Brother, I must speak what is on my mind without giving heed to emotion or fear. I challenge all to counter my arguments.
Though from what I understand only Magatsu Izanagi, DemonSenju, and Chie from Itachi's hardcore fanbase are worth debating.
Ghost in the Shell
Active member
Hm? I thought you were more of a Kakuzu fan. I didn't include you in there, Zex. I'll counter you once I get on a PC later today.
repped.
...I see. Speak it out with all your soul.
And I agree with the last part. Didn't even read other comments aside those three .
You must be registered for see images
I'll see where this is going.
Firstly he said much faster ,also The third data book that states itachi to be faster ,doesn't cover the war arc
Which manga feats!!?
Faster Hand signs than part 1 kakashi is irrelevant when we are talking about war arc kakashi ,not to mention that hand sign speed =/= shunshin speed in any shape or form .
War arc kakashi w/o kamui >>> part 1 kakashi ,kamui is another story
If you think that the only difference between part 1 kakashi and war arc one is kamui ,then I advise you to reread the whole manga
The difference in the stamina alone between war arc kakashi and part 1 kalashi makes the former much stronger than the later ,part 1 kakashi was getting exhausted after using the sharingan for 5 mins while the war arc version was using the sharing an for a whole day along with ms techs
Except that it wasn't like shadow clones ,it was real body with 30% of itachi chakra ,that is a big difference
When kakashi intended to use the ms in this fight Lol
.
That means that he was sure that itachi was helpless against naruto thanks to his clone
[/QUOTE]
No ,itachi couldnt have evaded kakashi's raikiri when he is caught by his clone if he couldnt evade naruto Lol
Yeah, War Arc 3 tomoe (no Rikudo chakra obviously) Kakashi is definitely above 3 tomoe Itachi. Even Shippuden beginning/first half Kakashi with 3 tomoe is above Itachi with 3 tomoe.
Speed and reflexes? Kakashi is faster, and has far better reactions. He could nearly blitz Asura Path with his raw speed, dodging his attacks and appearing at his back. Kakashi was paced two times with Gated Gai and managed to counterblitz the V2 who were ganbanging KCM Naruto and Bee, landing Raikiri on them. Kakashi outreacted and outspeeded Obito who showed he had the same physical speed of no Shunshin KCM Naruto. Kakashi tracked KCM and BM Naruto's speed and insta-Kamui'd his attacks in the same time that Obito used his intangibilty, or managed to fool the same Obito in mere instants (re-read 598), these are some crazy feats. Kakashi could also canonically react at least on par with Minato, and react to attacks from Juubi jinchuriki Madara (he could activate and use Kamui warp on Minato's arm kicked by Juudara, which was a completely surprise point blank attack, while Minato after being kicked couldn't activate Hiraishin to avoid the impact with Gaara). Itachi is fast, definitely, he could keep up with SM Kabuto and dodge base Killer B, but that doesn't compare with keeping up with Gated Gai and counterblitzing V2 Bijuu, and the keeping up with KCM Naruto feat is garbage as Naruto wasn't serious and wasn't using his real speed, and also Kakashi outspeeded Obito, who was as fast as not full Shunshin (but serious) Naruto, so moot point. Itachi can react to lightning, yeah, Kakashi already reacted to that shit when he cut it with Raikiri; and Kakashi's reflexes aren't the ones of someone that is hill and if fails a MS jutsu will be so slow to be hit from a rigged shuriken or a basic Katon ninjutsu.
CQC? Kakashi has better taijutsu, physical strength, toughness, can use unblockable attacks with Raikiri and Raikiri infused in his weapons, can also use Rasengan, quickly move underground and open at the very least the 1st Gate. Itachi is good but not a that level, he is only better in shurikenjutsu skill, but his Katon infused shuriken are not powerful enough. Ninjutsu? Absolute mastery of Raiton with Raikiri, Raiden (Raikiri X2), Raijuu Tsuiga (Raikiri extended to be used at mid/long range), Raiton Kage Bunshin, Raikiri infused unblockable weapons, Rasengan, very good use of Suiton with Daibafuku, Suiryodan, Suikodan, Suijinheki and so on, skilled use of Doton with underground fast movement and hiding plus Doryuheki and the surprise ninken summoning, then Kage Bunshin and Tajuu Kage Bunshin, he can use Kage Bunshin to make Suiton + Raiton combo (example: Suiryodan followed by Raijuu Tsuiga) or simply use his fast handseals speed to make powerful elemental combos like that. Then we know canonically he knows 1000 different jutsu. Itachi has what, Katon with Gokakyo, Hosenka and Hosenka Tsumabeni, Suiton with Suigadan and a weak Suiryodan, then Kage Bunshin, Karasu Bunshin and Bunshin Daibakuha? Come on.
Kakashi showed on panel he could keep with Itachi's moves already in part 1, when Itachi had to resort to tire and weaken himself using the Mangekyo to defeat him and not prolong the battle. Shippuden beginning Kakashi easily tricks and fools Itachi, later Kakashi will fool Pain in spite of his Rinnegan. Kakashi will discover Obito's powers and fool him too. Then we have the Kaguya fight, where his ninjutsu and physical skills were clearly enhanced by the huge power up he received, but his smartness was the same of always, and he used it to fool Kaguya like it was the easiest thing one could do. Itachi is a genius and it's smart too, but I don't really think he is as Kakashi, who is said to be even smarter than Shikamaru, someone that is said to have more than 200 as IQ and to be able to think 2000 moves in a second and choose the best in the same time.
Basically 3 tomoe Kakashi is better than 3 tomoe Itachi in everything bar genjutsu, and even there he can't lose, as canonically Itachi to defeat him with genjutsu had to use the Mangekyo, and we know Kakashi's skill in Sharingan genjutsu is on par with Obito's. Kakashi is physically above Itachi and is more versatile and better equipped. Throw MS for both and Kakashi negs Itachi with Kamui that shits on either Susanoo, Amaterasu or Tsukuyomi. Not even going with DMS Rikudo Kakashi, he could defeat like 100 Itachis like it was a joke.
Speed and reflexes? Kakashi is faster, and has far better reactions. He could nearly blitz Asura Path with his raw speed, dodging his attacks and appearing at his back. Kakashi was paced two times with Gated Gai and managed to counterblitz the V2 who were ganbanging KCM Naruto and Bee, landing Raikiri on them. Kakashi outreacted and outspeeded Obito who showed he had the same physical speed of no Shunshin KCM Naruto. Kakashi tracked KCM and BM Naruto's speed and insta-Kamui'd his attacks in the same time that Obito used his intangibilty, or managed to fool the same Obito in mere instants (re-read 598), these are some crazy feats. Kakashi could also canonically react at least on par with Minato, and react to attacks from Juubi jinchuriki Madara (he could activate and use Kamui warp on Minato's arm kicked by Juudara, which was a completely surprise point blank attack, while Minato after being kicked couldn't activate Hiraishin to avoid the impact with Gaara). Itachi is fast, definitely, he could keep up with SM Kabuto and dodge base Killer B, but that doesn't compare with keeping up with Gated Gai and counterblitzing V2 Bijuu, and the keeping up with KCM Naruto feat is garbage as Naruto wasn't serious and wasn't using his real speed, and also Kakashi outspeeded Obito, who was as fast as not full Shunshin (but serious) Naruto, so moot point. Itachi can react to lightning, yeah, Kakashi already reacted to that shit when he cut it with Raikiri; and Kakashi's reflexes aren't the ones of someone that is hill and if fails a MS jutsu will be so slow to be hit from a rigged shuriken or a basic Katon ninjutsu.
CQC? Kakashi has better taijutsu, physical strength, toughness, can use unblockable attacks with Raikiri and Raikiri infused in his weapons, can also use Rasengan, quickly move underground and open at the very least the 1st Gate. Itachi is good but not a that level, he is only better in shurikenjutsu skill, but his Katon infused shuriken are not powerful enough. Ninjutsu? Absolute mastery of Raiton with Raikiri, Raiden (Raikiri X2), Raijuu Tsuiga (Raikiri extended to be used at mid/long range), Raiton Kage Bunshin, Raikiri infused unblockable weapons, Rasengan, very good use of Suiton with Daibafuku, Suiryodan, Suikodan, Suijinheki and so on, skilled use of Doton with underground fast movement and hiding plus Doryuheki and the surprise ninken summoning, then Kage Bunshin and Tajuu Kage Bunshin, he can use Kage Bunshin to make Suiton + Raiton combo (example: Suiryodan followed by Raijuu Tsuiga) or simply use his fast handseals speed to make powerful elemental combos like that. Then we know canonically he knows 1000 different jutsu. Itachi has what, Katon with Gokakyo, Hosenka and Hosenka Tsumabeni, Suiton with Suigadan and a weak Suiryodan, then Kage Bunshin, Karasu Bunshin and Bunshin Daibakuha? Come on.
Kakashi showed on panel he could keep with Itachi's moves already in part 1, when Itachi had to resort to tire and weaken himself using the Mangekyo to defeat him and not prolong the battle. Shippuden beginning Kakashi easily tricks and fools Itachi, later Kakashi will fool Pain in spite of his Rinnegan. Kakashi will discover Obito's powers and fool him too. Then we have the Kaguya fight, where his ninjutsu and physical skills were clearly enhanced by the huge power up he received, but his smartness was the same of always, and he used it to fool Kaguya like it was the easiest thing one could do. Itachi is a genius and it's smart too, but I don't really think he is as Kakashi, who is said to be even smarter than Shikamaru, someone that is said to have more than 200 as IQ and to be able to think 2000 moves in a second and choose the best in the same time.
Basically 3 tomoe Kakashi is better than 3 tomoe Itachi in everything bar genjutsu, and even there he can't lose, as canonically Itachi to defeat him with genjutsu had to use the Mangekyo, and we know Kakashi's skill in Sharingan genjutsu is on par with Obito's. Kakashi is physically above Itachi and is more versatile and better equipped. Throw MS for both and Kakashi negs Itachi with Kamui that shits on either Susanoo, Amaterasu or Tsukuyomi. Not even going with DMS Rikudo Kakashi, he could defeat like 100 Itachis like it was a joke.
Ghost in the Shell
Active member
Finally, a challenge. No, I'll be a bit busy as well in the next couple of days with college work and some other things, and my next thread is going to include a lot of scans and screenshots. I'll need to clear out my schedule before I have enough time to make such a comprehensive post.
Magatsu Izanagi
Active member
Awards
^Decided to change my mind and elaborate with a more serious response. Might not see your reply (don't always get notifications or check back xD ), but I just wanted to leave this here. 
Left out the opening text since, it's just an opening>
Suiton> Katon, so yes as long as the range is the same it ceases to advance.
Comparing Kakashi's size here to Kakuzu's attack:
Comparing the Uchiha bros' katons each to themselves:
To top it off, this is just a side view of the katon techs the Uchiha bros were using. The flames look taller from the side than Kakuzu's would. You'd see that they span a wider radius too, had Kishimoto done a front view from Sasuke's or Itachi's perspective.
Also, this technique does require seals and Kakashi did perform them. Kakashi is finishing it off with the "dog" seal. The tech is Tiger → Hare → Boar → Dog to activate.
Look at the top right hand corner of the page you posted:
Chart for reference:
How long would it take Kakashi to see through one of Itachi's genjutsus? Would he be as quick as an actual Uchiha, like Sasuke? Would he in time? Maybe, maybe not.
Sasuke, Itachi, and many other shinobi can utilize shunshin that fast to appear behind a seemingly halted Obito who is fooling around and could easily leave Yamato's bind.
[/quote]
Kakashi can beat Itachi in terms of defensive ability with feints, but not replacement capabilities.
EX: I think Orochimaru is the smartest in NV for the knowledge of jutsu he has. Kakashi is the best strategist imo. Itachi is good at coming up with counters while in the heat of battle. Too many different ways one can be smart. Each have the edge over the other in different categories.
Overall, this fight conclusion just looks like you anticipate anyone who goes against Kakashi to just stand there and take a raikiri. Not too realistic.
Left out the opening text since, it's just an opening>
Suiton> Katon, so yes as long as the range is the same it ceases to advance.
This shows no evidence of surpassing Itachi's fire technique. Not in size, if that's what you're getting at (only way for a katon tech to surpass another in this way).
Comparing Kakashi's size here to Kakuzu's attack:
You must be registered for see images
Comparing the Uchiha bros' katons each to themselves:
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
To top it off, this is just a side view of the katon techs the Uchiha bros were using. The flames look taller from the side than Kakuzu's would. You'd see that they span a wider radius too, had Kishimoto done a front view from Sasuke's or Itachi's perspective.
Most of Kakashi's power scaling is using Kamui after the Pein arc. Any thing else is just guessing.
Kakuzu's tech was not on the same level of Sasuke's or Itachi's tech. Not in size at least. It was smaller.
It doesn't matter if that particular tech is resistant to katon. Because it's primarily used for surprise attacks, like how he tried to ensnare Pein there, but failed.
Also, this technique does require seals and Kakashi did perform them. Kakashi is finishing it off with the "dog" seal. The tech is Tiger → Hare → Boar → Dog to activate.
Look at the top right hand corner of the page you posted:
You must be registered for see images
Chart for reference:
You must be registered for see images
Ninja use the amount of chakra they put in to vary the techniques size. Itachi was in a cramped cave against Kabuto, Kakashi was in an open area. Itachi wanted to get Kabuto away, he made it large enough to wash away the latter... any bigger would be pointless and possible harm himself.
So, another guessing scenario just using the excuse "power scaling"? I wouldn't use that for Itachi, so not for Kakashi either. What they have on panel is what they have.
One of the best? I wouldn't say this. The man cannot complete raikiri, a signature move without the sharingan. Kumogakure ninja best him in lightning release.
Kakashi needed Naruto's help to counter a 30% clone of Itachi. Yes, Itachi's bunshins do count. Also, this statement of "Kakashi counters all Itachi's clones with his own" is subjective. We could say either. It holds no weight.
Only as far as having more elements goes. Itachi is better at using katon than Kakashi is. Suitons are comparable. Not a large gap.\
Yes, when Kakashi has another team member helping him for distraction. Hardly a "stalemate in canon".
I wouldn't say similar. Itachi has 100% accuracy with his weapons, even from blind spots. Kakashi doesn't have anything like this.
Most likely not. Seals are needed to imbue weapons with elemental chakra. If this is a close-range taijutsu fight, neither Kakashi nor Itachi are going to have time to step back, take a few moments, pull out the weapons, create the seals, and be ready. Notice how Kakashi is slightly far off in that panel, too when he's using raiton with his weapons.
Strength doesn't play a fight in taijutsu fights with Itachi. It's mainly speed. It's dependent upon who can strike quicker and match blows. Itachi kept up with a KCM Naruto clone for a small while, Kakashi has no feats like that. His best taijutsu feats were actually against Kakuzu and those weren't in terms of speed, but mainly movement.
Itachi> Kakashi by a small margin in CQC
I wouldn't say "genjutsu master". Only one with a domesticated beast prior Naruto was Bee. Yagura and his did not get along. So, not a perfect jin like some thought. 3-tomoe genjutsu does work. Even Itachi caught Bee for a while before Hachibi took 5 or so seconds to break him out. Yagura's beast evidently didn't care.
Uchiha are known to have powers to control the Kyuubi, long before Obito. Prime example being Madz. As for Izanagi, any Uchiha with knowledge of it could use it. For generations, Uchiha wasted eyes using it and Izanami had to be created to stop their own kind from this trivial abuse of power.
Hebi Sasuke with 3-tomoe talked to an illusion of Itachi on his throne being stabbed for a few moments before realizing it was a genjutsu.
You must be registered for see images
Wrong scan. He is just acknowledging that genjutsu doesn't work on clones. This goes for both opponents and they know this.
No, a shinobi does not have to be able to cast good illusions to break them. Sakura can break general genjutsu, this doesn't mean that she can cast them well.
No, this advantage is still very valid.
No doubt, it's fast. But, it doesn't state that in the manga. Plus, there are faster things in NV.
Obito has given compliments before. His statements are usually casual. He said Sakura was "strong"... she is- but not a prime example in NV, for instance.
Sasuke, Itachi, and many other shinobi can utilize shunshin that fast to appear behind a seemingly halted Obito who is fooling around and could easily leave Yamato's bind.
Yes, in a less-than-serious skirmish meant to capture the Leaf's attention. Meanwhile, Itachi had a clone set up himself which took some time from Kakashi with him having to save Kurenai.
Wrong scan. That's Itachi realizing it's a Kakashi clone after seeing genjutsu not working.
Out of shape and rusty? Kakashi hasn't taken any breaks. He's been a jounin for years and had the possession as a sensei going on missions long before the Team 7 we know of came to be.
[/quote]
[/quote]
Kakashi can beat Itachi in terms of defensive ability with feints, but not replacement capabilities.
Itachi praises every opponent bar Orochimaru. He's a polite shinobi, ironically. Feats are better than hype. Then again, intelligence is way too subjective.
EX: I think Orochimaru is the smartest in NV for the knowledge of jutsu he has. Kakashi is the best strategist imo. Itachi is good at coming up with counters while in the heat of battle. Too many different ways one can be smart. Each have the edge over the other in different categories.
"Almost" or "nearly" don't have much weight. It's what they actually succeed at that matters.
Yes, after various encounters with Obito, having the same type of eye, etc. Even Sakura analyzed more when she first saw Obito.
Strategy for a team, sure. Otherwise, not so much.
Hyperbole.
But they are not completely countered as established before. At all.
Kakashi is best when it comes to leading a team, that's what he was praised for. But just the same, in a high profile fight he needs the help of a team member most often.
Not always and this is based on just two instances with one shinobi in the manga. It doesn't mean he's a "master".
Close range fights don't allow for elemental usage here as much.
Overall, this fight conclusion just looks like you anticipate anyone who goes against Kakashi to just stand there and take a raikiri. Not too realistic.
Tables haven't completely turned, only somewhat tilted. Even so, 3-tomoe Itachi beat 3-tomoe Kakashi high-diff. DMS Kakashi can easily defeat Itachi.
Assuming this is a serious fight, in which both opponents' lives would be in the balance... Izanami can be a part of Itachi's arsenal. Losing an eye>Losing a life. Though, not like it matters since Kakashi has his life pretty much in order and it's not a jutsu to use here.
Songbird Supreme
Member
Itachi can blitz. People are forgetting he can also implant Amaterasu in Shisui's eye whenever he wants.
Ghost in the Shell
Active member
No it doesn't, not by feats. Clone feints are built off of deception so Itachi needs to occult himself as well, like he did against Kabuto. Don't know what this "blitz with a clone" business means, but I could just say the same thing and say Kakashi blitzed Itachi with a clone feint when he hid underground to avoid his katon during their early part 2 encounter.
That is different from dojutsu users who can just see through ocular genjutsu. Kakashi mastered his MS during the War Arc which entailed mastering his 3T first, which he already did prior to the war. His feat against Obito just epitomizes that, since he countered with an illusion of his own as well. How can a 3T master not cast good illusions?
Itachi is faster than Hebi Sasuke but the margin is not nearly as wide as you think. He didn't "blitz" him either, he just clowned him in a taijutsu battle.
Kakashi canonically feinted him with a water clone when he did that, meaning that Kakashi's casting speed is also very fast as well, though Itachi gets the advantage in this respect.
This is where I vehemently disagree. I won't say anything about this here since I already addressed it in the OP.
Kakashi can spam projectiles as well since he has comparable skill in kenjutsu (art of weaponry) to Itachi, and raikiri infused projectiles as well, to overwhelm his projectiles as I outlined on the OP.
Already posted in the OP. Clearly he saw through Obito's genjutsu and countered with an illusion of his own since he made it look as if he was fighting Obito.
No, he found that out at the last second when it was too late. He clearly said that he "wouldn't expect you get get trapped" because Kakashi's bunshin let himself get trapped to give Naruto an opening to attack with Oodama Rasengan. Itachi was completely fooled by that decoy.
Not at all, considering that it was Kakashi that made Itachi look like a fool twice with the clone feint in part 1, and part 2, meaning that Kakashi CAN keep up through the use of his own bunshin feints and tactics even though his eyes may not always perceive his jutsu casting. Conversely, Itachi wasn't able to perceive Kakashi's bunshin feints until it was too late, while Kakashi saw through bunshin daibakuha and saved Kurenai. I agree that Itachi's shunshin is faster than Kakashi's but not by a wide enough margin to make a difference.
I'm not going to kid myself, 3T Kakashi can't really take Itachi on without at least heaving defensive Kamui available to him. But I believe that Kakashi without offensive Kamui can win, but that's a story for my next thread.
Thanks. And yeah, I expected this as well since ItachiBase is in ashes with very few respectable defenders left.
Last edited:
Heisenberg Wannabe
Active member
This thread is a joke. Itachi completly owned Kakashi in that fight even before he used Tsukiyomi. He only used Tsukiyomi to end the fight more quickly, because he wasn't there to start a war. He was only there to send a message to the Elders that he was still here and Sasuke is off limits.
Kakashi part 1 coulnd't follow itachi's handseal?
He proved the contrary by basing on his actions.It was taijutsu range 'close range),it's rare that a fight start in this condition.Despite the few time kakashi had to react at Itachi's surprise attack, he noticed Itachi's feint with kunais, and was still able to block itachi's suiton with a suiton , prepare a suiton clone, and even know that Itachi was a clone to save kurenai.It's a bit a lot for someone who is supossed to not barelly see Itachi's movement.
In part 2 it kakashi's clone tricked and immobilized Itachi's clone , he knew in advance that it was a genjutsu before the eye contact " goukakyuu...but something been".
Only way for Itachi to win is MS.
Itachi has no way to win, his speed was useless at close range against the reaction time and speed of Kakashi, his suiton is useless, his katon is useless, his genjutsu is useless. Kakashi already countered all Itachi's possibilities without MS.
On the other sides, a raiton kage bunshin trick would be fatal on Itachi (his clones trick always worked) if he got tricked the same way as Kakashi's clone tricked and blocked Itachi's clone in part 2.Not to mension all the jutsus and tricks that i didn't listed on Kakashi's side and the fact that Itachi can only use 20% of his muscles strengh whereas Kakashi can use 100% of his muscle strengh.
Conclusion: Logic says that Itachi without MS doesn't have the tools to defeat 3T Kakashi because manga clearly shows that all his jutsus was useless against Kakashi or even Kakashi's clone for some of them.
He proved the contrary by basing on his actions.It was taijutsu range 'close range),it's rare that a fight start in this condition.Despite the few time kakashi had to react at Itachi's surprise attack, he noticed Itachi's feint with kunais, and was still able to block itachi's suiton with a suiton , prepare a suiton clone, and even know that Itachi was a clone to save kurenai.It's a bit a lot for someone who is supossed to not barelly see Itachi's movement.
In part 2 it kakashi's clone tricked and immobilized Itachi's clone , he knew in advance that it was a genjutsu before the eye contact " goukakyuu...but something been".
Only way for Itachi to win is MS.
Itachi has no way to win, his speed was useless at close range against the reaction time and speed of Kakashi, his suiton is useless, his katon is useless, his genjutsu is useless. Kakashi already countered all Itachi's possibilities without MS.
On the other sides, a raiton kage bunshin trick would be fatal on Itachi (his clones trick always worked) if he got tricked the same way as Kakashi's clone tricked and blocked Itachi's clone in part 2.Not to mension all the jutsus and tricks that i didn't listed on Kakashi's side and the fact that Itachi can only use 20% of his muscles strengh whereas Kakashi can use 100% of his muscle strengh.
Conclusion: Logic says that Itachi without MS doesn't have the tools to defeat 3T Kakashi because manga clearly shows that all his jutsus was useless against Kakashi or even Kakashi's clone for some of them.
Last edited:
- Status