ems sasuke and itachi vs orochimaru and kabuto with oro's dna,DSM and edo tensei

[ismael]

Not necessarily:

Say there is a serial killer in someone's house, 2 people are in the house and one leaves the house and seals off any escape routes for the other person, leading to the serial killer killing the person in the house.

One person caused the death to happen but didn't kill them.

oh thanks for the explanation

 

[shelke]

Someone who has a 5 in genjutsu in the databook isnt weak against genjutsu fool lol. Read the databook.

Paralysising genjutsu is probably one of the hardest jutsu to escape, especially from someone strong in genjutu like Itachi. The simple finger genjutsu arent anything near that threatening, which is why it was shown on Naruto, the fool at the moment.

Refrain from personal attacks. If you can't decipher posts, it's not me who is the fool. Orochimaru is weak against genjutsus. For example, going by your logic Kuranei is pretty apt is using genjutus as well, but she can't counter Itachi's. Only a sharingen user can counter his. Any non-sharingen user is weak against Itachi's genjutsus.

Show me proof of the statement you made, that Itachi's genjutsu is not threatening at that level. Unless you don't show me some manga proof, it's just your speculation. Only Kabuto would be an actual contender here.

 

[OnPoint]

The problem here is that Kabuto's most effective moves, Hakugeki and Mugen Onsa, both pose the risk of collateral damage - Orochimaru does not possess the Hōzuki clans hydrification technique (so will still be affected by the vibrations of White Rage) nor will he be able to avoid the sound produced Tayuya's genjutsu. Therefore, Kabuto will have a problem if either one of these jutsu fail at keeping the Uchiha brothers incapacitated long enough for them to be killed. Orochimaru can do very little here since Eight Branches can easily be sealed by the Totsuka Blade and his team's victory is dependent on the overcoming of Susano'o, something which is unlikely to be achieved without the use of Hakugeki. There's always Muki Tensei which can target the underneath of Susano'o, although this can be countered by the heat produced by Sasuke's Enton. This is also one of those jutsu which is far more effective in an enclosed area (like a cave), so the OP should've indicated at the very least where this fight is taking place.

However, both Kabuto and Orochimaru (Kabuto in particular) can overcome most of the critical jutsu the Uchiha possess; Amaterasu can be side stepped through the use of Oral Rebirth (though this takes up a lot of chakra), Tsukuyomi is nullified by closed eyelids whilst the likes of Totsuka Blade can be avoided completely through the use of enhanced physical movement. Being one of the more broken characters in the mange, i'm pretty sure that Kabuto can overcome either of the brothers individually, but i'm not so sure of him taking them both on if they have the intent to kill, especially since Orochimaru seems to be lacking any real threat in this fight. 50/50.

 

[KidGamer65]

oh thanks for the explanation

Anytime

 

[HNIC]

The problem here is that Kabuto's most effective moves, Hakugeki and Mugen Onsa, both pose the risk of collateral damage - Orochimaru does not possess the Hōzuki clans hydrification technique (so will still be affected by the vibrations of White Rage) nor will he be able to avoid the sound produced Tayuya's genjutsu. Therefore, Kabuto will have a problem if either one of these jutsu fail at keeping the Uchiha brothers incapacitated long enough for them to be killed. Orochimaru can do very little here since Eight Branches can easily be sealed by the Totsuka Blade and his team's victory is dependent on the overcoming of Susano'o, something which is unlikely to be achieved without the use of Hakugeki. There's always Muki Tensei which can target the underneath of Susano'o, although this can be countered by the heat produced by Sasuke's Enton. This is also one of those jutsu which is far more effective in an enclosed area (like a cave), so the OP should've indicated at the very least where this fight is taking place.

However, both Kabuto and Orochimaru (Kabuto in particular) can overcome most of the critical jutsu the Uchiha possess; Amaterasu can be side stepped through the use of Oral Rebirth (though this takes up a lot of chakra), Tsukuyomi is nullified by closed eyelids whilst the likes of Totsuka Blade can be avoided completely through the use of enhanced physical movement. Being one of the more broken characters in the mange, i'm pretty sure that Kabuto can overcome either of the brothers individually, but i'm not so sure of him taking them both on if they have the intent to kill, especially since Orochimaru seems to be lacking any real threat in this fight. 50/50.

I'll just point out that Orochimaru has attack prevent technqiue he can emerge and avoid any attack w/o using hand signs, so Kabuto wouldnt have to worry about that. Also, 8 branch would be more than enough for Sasuke's Susano, as its bigger and regenerates, so you cant say he wont be any threat as its all about match-ups. Also, its possible that Orochi's sword can penertrate Susano as he pulled it out infront of Susano before, a sword the he can use remotely and expand.

 

[HNIC]

Refrain from personal attacks. If you can't decipher posts, it's not me who is the fool. Orochimaru is weak against genjutsus. For example, going by your logic Kuranei is pretty apt is using genjutus as well, but she can't counter Itachi's. Only a sharingen user can counter his. Any non-sharingen user is weak against Itachi's genjutsus.

Show me proof of the statement you made, that Itachi's genjutsu is not threatening at that level. Unless you don't show me some manga proof, it's just your speculation. Only Kabuto would be an actual contender here.

this is why i called you a fool, you said he was weak in genjutsu, which in fact he isnt as the databook proves that. Sharingan genjtusu is ulitmately stonger than normal genjusut, but breaking it requires the same tactics. Itachi's finger genjutsu isnt as threatening as paraylizing obviously because it doesnt prevent your movements!! GET IT??

This is why I mentioned how Orochimaru was still able to move thru pure will! He was suppose to be paralyized yet was able to still regardless while being under Itachi's genjutsu. This was the same kind of genjutsu Madara used on A, but Onoki distrupted it.

 

[OnPoint]

I'll just point out that Orochimaru has attack prevent technqiue he can emerge and avoid any attack w/o using hand signs, so Kabuto wouldnt have to worry about that. Also, 8 branch would be more than enough for Sasuke's Susano, as its bigger and regenerates, so you cant say he wont be any threat as its all about match-ups. Also, its possible that Orochi's sword can penertrate Susano as he pulled it out infront of Susano before, a sword the he can use remotely and expand.

Eight Branches will be sealed if it comes out. Such a massive being will always be in range of getting sealed by the Totsuka Blade - Kabuto can avoid it, Orochimaru, in that form, cannot. This is a 2 vs 2, not a 1 vs 1. What technique (?) is Orochimaru going to use to a) avoid the vibrations produced by White Rage and b) the sound of Mugen Onsa? I'm intrigued to know. Your point regarding the Sword of Kusanagi being able to penetrate Sasuke's level 4 is complete speculation considering the same blade was unable to pierce even the 4 tailed Kyuubi.

 

[shelke]

this is why i called you a fool, you said he was weak in genjutsu, which in fact he isnt as the databook proves that. Sharingan genjtusu is ulitmately stonger than normal genjusut, but breaking it requires the same tactics. Itachi's finger genjutsu isnt as threatening as paraylizing obviously because it doesnt prevent your movements!! GET IT??

This is why I mentioned how Orochimaru was still able to move thru pure will! He was suppose to be paralyized yet was able to still regardless while being under Itachi's genjutsu. This was the same kind of genjutsu Madara used on A, but Onoki distrupted it.

Weak in gengutsu or is weak against Itachi's genjutsu? Being apt at genjutsu and being susceptible to attacks from it are two very different things. I think you just defined yourself with the whole fool's logic. It's basic English if anything else, because I never even said that Orochimaru himself is weak at using genjutsus. Learn to understand posts first, debate later.

 

[HNIC]

Eight Branches will be sealed if it comes out. Such a massive being will always be in range of getting sealed by the Totsuka Blade - Kabuto can avoid it, Orochimaru, in that form, cannot. This is a 2 vs 2, not a 1 vs 1. What technique (?) is Orochimaru going to use to a) avoid the vibrations produced by White Rage and b) the sound of Mugen Onsa? I'm intrigued to know. Your point regarding the Sword of Kusanagi being able to penetrate Sasuke's level 4 is complete speculation considering the same blade was unable to pierce even the 4 tailed Kyuubi.

2vs2 means everyone is fighting the other and the other is able to defend for another. Orochi using 8 branch on whom ever will force Itachi to use Susano, which leaves an opening for Kabuto, whether it's genjutsu or whatever else. It's about what teams compliments each other better. Also, I states the Orochimaru can be anywhere at any one by avoiding it with attack prevention technqiue. Sword of Kusanagi penetrating Susano is speculation, not it cant be denied.

 

[HNIC]

Weak in gengutsu or is weak against Itachi's genjutsu? Being apt at genjutsu and being susceptible to attacks from it are two very different things. I think you just defined yourself with the whole fool's logic. It's basic English if anything else, because I never even said that Orochimaru himself is weak at using genjutsus. Learn to understand posts first, debate later.

smh i think you have a hard time understanding post man. You implied that Orochimaru was weak against genjutsu and I explained why he isnt, as the databook stats prove that! Than you try to mention the chick who fought against Itachi, which was irrelevent! It's obvious you have no argument. Whether you implied that he was weak at using or breaking genjustu, the fact is he has a 5 and idk how the hell one having a 5 in genjutus cant use or defend against it.

How about you explain what you mean when saying someone is "weak" against genjutsu than. Until than you fail.

 

[OnPoint]

2vs2 means everyone is fighting the other and the other is able to defend for another. Orochi using 8 branch on whom ever will force Itachi to use Susano, which leaves an opening for Kabuto, whether it's genjutsu or whatever else. It's about what teams compliments each other better. Also, I states the Orochimaru can be anywhere at any one by avoiding it with attack prevention technqiue. Sword of Kusanagi penetrating Susano is speculation, not it cant be denied.

If Eight branches comes out, there's nothing stopping Itachi from sealing it, even if Orochimaru was initially fighting Sasuke. The latter can always surround his or Itachi's Susano'o with Enton in an attempt to stall Kabuto. And the likelihood of the Sword of Kusanagi being able to pierce a complete Susano'o is low after it's showing against Naruto.

 

[HNIC]

If Eight branches comes out, there's nothing stopping Itachi from sealing it, even if Orochimaru was initially fighting Sasuke. The latter can always surround his or Itachi's Susano'o with Enton in an attempt to stall Kabuto. And the likelihood of the Sword of Kusanagi being able to pierce a complete Susano'o is low after it's showing against Naruto.

the fact is, being that this is 2vs2 this ultimately leaves an opening, also if im not mistaken to seal this he'll need to strike down Orochimaru or else it would have been sealed once the first few heads were chopped off. The Bros have nothing to keep multiple opponets distracted as the snakes do. Once Itachi or Sasuke force on something its getting if not all, majority of their attention.

So, lets say its first used against Sasuke, he'll have nothing to deal with 8 branch, so Itachi will have to get involved. This leaves opening for Kabuto to also prep for an attack for one or both of them. 8 branch being as big as it is cant be ignored and Sasuke would think the same thing.

Now, if it's used against Itachi, he has the tool to handle it rather easily with his sealing ability. This is why I simply argue that you cant count Orochimaru out, as the match-up is what it all boils down to.

 

[OnPoint]

the fact is, being that this is 2vs2 this ultimately leaves an opening, also if im not mistaken to seal this he'll need to strike down Orochimaru or else it would have been sealed once the first few heads were chopped off. The Bros have nothing to keep multiple opponets distracted as the snakes do. Once Itachi or Sasuke force on something its getting if not all, majority of their attention.

So, lets say its first used against Sasuke, he'll have nothing to deal with 8 branch, so Itachi will have to get involved. This leaves opening for Kabuto to also prep for an attack for one or both of them. 8 branch being as big as it is cant be ignored and Sasuke would think the same thing.

Now, if it's used against Itachi, he has the tool to handle it rather easily with his sealing ability. This is why I simply argue that you cant count Orochimaru out, as the match-up is what it all boils down to.

The Totsuka Blade would need to pierce Eight Branches in order to seal it, of course. But it's not going to be difficult for Itachi to turn his attention to such a thing, especially considering the kind of formation the brothers took up against Kabuto [

You must be registered for see links

]. They'll be close to eachother at pretty much all times, particularly if Susano'o is being used. And you speak as if Orochimaru will be able to crush Sasuke's Susano'o effortlessly if Itachi does not immediately get involved; this is certainly not the case if you're taking into account the hype which comes with the acquisition of the Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan. Sasuke has his own Amaterasu Blade which is more than capable of keeping the Hydra at bay long enough for Itachi to pierce it [

You must be registered for see links

]. The only way Kabuto is going to get through Itachi's Susano'o is if he can force him to dematerialise it - he'd have to use Hakugeki, which he would've (at least, if he's IC) already done by that point in the battle. If Itachi is sealing Orochimaru, do you believe Sasuke will stand there in awe, or don't you think he'll actually do something to increase the chances of his team's victory? I don't think it's wise at all for Orochimaru to use Yamata, and i'd even go as far as saying his team would fair better if such a technique remained unused.

 

[shelke]

smh i think you have a hard time understanding post man. You implied that Orochimaru was weak against genjutsu and I explained why he isnt, as the databook stats prove that! Than you try to mention the chick who fought against Itachi, which was irrelevent! It's obvious you have no argument. Whether you implied that he was weak at using or breaking genjustu, the fact is he has a 5 and idk how the hell one having a 5 in genjutus cant use or defend against it.

How about you explain what you mean when saying someone is "weak" against genjutsu than

The databook points are given to show users skill at using certain techniques. No where does it prove that Orochimaru can escape all genjutsus. Kuranei has a perfect five yet she had to close her eyes to escape Itachi's genjutsu.

 

[HNIC]

The Totsuka Blade would need to pierce Eight Branches in order to seal it, of course. But it's not going to be difficult for Itachi to turn his attention to such a thing, especially considering the kind of formation the brothers took up against Kabuto [

You must be registered for see links

]. They'll be close to eachother at pretty much all times, particularly if Susano'o is being used. And you speak as if Orochimaru will be able to crush Sasuke's Susano'o effortlessly if Itachi does not immediately get involved; this is certainly not the case if you're taking into account the hype which comes with the acquisition of the Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan. Sasuke has his own Amaterasu Blade which is more than capable of keeping the Hydra at bay long enough for Itachi to pierce it [

You must be registered for see links

]. The only way Kabuto is going to get through Itachi's Susano'o is if he can force him to dematerialise it - he'd have to use Hakugeki, which he would've (at least, if he's IC) already done by that point in the battle. If Itachi is sealing Orochimaru, do you believe Sasuke will stand there in awe, or don't you think he'll actually do something to increase the chances of his team's victory? I don't think it's wise at all for Orochimaru to use Yamata, and i'd even go as far as saying his team would fair better if such a technique remained unused.

Susano cant defend against sound genjutsu, as they both were caught while having Susano up before. Now, idk if you really think that all four men would be that close together, but I highly doubt that, Orochimaru himself likes to move around into open spaces. Sasuke's Susano will be be able to defend itself, but wouldnt be able to defeat it from what we've seen thus far. As all men are intelligent, they would divide off strategically and wouldnt be fighting amongst each other is a circle lol that's just too much power and isnt even smart.

In that situation, of 2vs1 they would be that close, but not having two opponents that know their abilites and who usually like to spread things out, that not even realistic

 

[Turson]

The databook points are given to show users skill at using certain techniques. No where does it prove that Orochimaru can escape all genjutsus. Kuranei has a perfect five yet she had to close her eyes to escape Itachi's genjutsu.

Actually, she had to bite her lip, pain is one of ways to dispell Genjutsu, and technically it was her own Genjutsu reversed on her by Itachi. But its true, just becuase someone is good in Genjutsu doesnt mean that he/she can easily break them.

 

[HNIC]

The databook points are given to show users skill at using certain techniques. No where does it prove that Orochimaru can escape all genjutsus. Kuranei has a perfect five yet she had to close her eyes to escape Itachi's genjutsu.

omh you fail, do you even know what genjutsu is lol, in order have such a high stat (5), one has to be able to break it. That chick's genjutsu was simply countered, that's it! Genjutsu is all about intelligene and a few other things, an established stat of 5 shows that one has the abiltiy to use and defend against genjtusu. Now, its not always easy because certain genjutus stop all movement, paraylzing genjusut! Sharingan OP genjutsu are the only ones the require another sharingan user to actually counter them.

In all Orochimaru isnt weak agasint genjutus and im done with you

 

[shelke]

Actually, she had to bite her lip, pain is one of ways to Genjutsu dispelling, and technically it was her own Genjutsu reversed on her by Itachi. But its true, just becuase someone is good in Genjutsu doesnt mean that he/she can easily break them.

I was talking about when Itachi was about to use Tsukiyomi. She was not escaping it without closing her eyes. She would've died as Kakashi commented. And yes, that was my point. Being good at genjutsu doesn't mean you can break away from them without any hindrances. Orochimaru is shown to be extremely weak against Sharingen genjutsu tsukiyomi. If he gets hit with this through the eye or Itachi's finger, he's done.

 

[OnPoint]

Susano cant defend against sound genjutsu, as they both were caught while having Susano up before. Now, idk if you really think that all four men would be that close together, but I highly doubt that, Orochimaru himself likes to move around into open spaces. Sasuke's Susano will be be able to defend itself, but wouldnt be able to defeat it from what we've seen thus far. As all men are intelligent, they would divide off strategically and wouldnt be fighting amongst each other is a circle lol that's just too much power and isnt even smart.

In that situation, of 2vs1 they would be that close, but not having two opponents that know their abilites and who usually like to spread things out, that not even realistic

Why would either brother give chase in any form of Susano'o? What will Orochimaru achieve by simply moving hundreds of metres away? That's foolish, people haven't been seen to casually run around or blitz opponents with this defence up. To be honest, the OP didn't specify the location or the like, so I think it's completely reasonable to suggest that everyone would remain relatively close together in an enclosed space (like a cave). If both sides have knowledge on eachother, why would the brothers separate when they know it'd take their combined efforts to escape something like Mugen Onsa (which it did, canonically)? What will the Hydra do if Sasuke initially lights it up with Amaterasu? That brief period in which it's in pain would be more than enough time for the Totsuka Blade to come out. And as I said, an IC Kabuto is going to use Mugen Onsa or Hakugeki early in the fight; in my second post I already acknowledged that team Kabuto is likely to be the victor if such jutsu are successful.

 

[shelke]

omh you fail, do you even know what genjutsu is lol, in order have such a high stat (5), one has to be able to break it. That chick's genjutsu was simply countered, that's it! Genjutsu is all about intelligene and a few other things, an established stat of 5 shows that one has the abiltiy to use and defend against genjtusu. Now, its not always easy because certain genjutus stop all movement, paraylzing genjusut! Sharingan OP genjutsu are the only ones the require another sharingan user to actually counter them.

In all Orochimaru isnt weak agasint genjutus and im done with you

What did she do against Tsukiyomi? She closed her eyes, which is the genjutsu I was pointing at. Your manga knowledge is pretty poor. Orochimaru is weak against sharingen's tsukiyomi or right eye genjutsu. Because no one can break free from it other than an Uchiha. Even Kakashi was trapped there getting implied for 72 hours.

Good that you are done with me. I am actually glad. The guy who doesn't know the difference between 'weak in genjutsu' and 'weak against genjutsu' isn't even worth debating with.