Edo Hiruzen vs Hashirama

[Inert Brian]

@Kidgamer

And since when was Wind and Fire Mokuton's elemental weakness? . Oh wait, never.

Have you ever made a fire before? You need something called wood/logs.

Wow...did you even read Hashirama vs Madara? He was handling Kurama and Madara until PS came out. He had to run from PS Kurama and enter Sage Mode. Key words PS Kurama. So no, this is wrong. He doesn't need to damage Enma since all he needs to do is slaughter Hiruzen.

Haven't read it in a while, my bad. >_>. You also have to get through Enma before Hiruzen....

Its hilarious how you people actually base Hiruzen vs Hashirama's full power Mokuton, on Enma's performance against a severely weakened Hashirama's Mokuton. "Hurr durr Origin of Chakra" isn't an argument for why smashing those particular branches means that he can cut up all Mokuton. Mifune cut the Shinju's branches, I guess he'd fodderize all of Hashirama's Mokuton just like that.

Hiruzen smashing smaller branches doesnt' mean he can smash larger ones. Its really that simple at the end of the day.

Explain how BM Naruto got raped by Shinjuu branches then if they're so weak? Don't tell me there were too many because he could've smashed them all like Hiruzen did. (Even if they weren't attacking Hiruzen directly....he took out all of the branches attacking Naruto in 2-3 swings). I see what you're trying to say....but I think diamond is more durable than timber.

"TL;DR" must be what you did when you read that part of the manga. In what universe is pushing Kurama away "taking it on?" In what universe did Hashirama run from Kurama alone? Cause I'm 110% sure that Kurama AND Madara's Susanoo were staring him down. Nice try though.

Someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed this morning.

TL;DR: You're wrong.

You need a thread dedicated to funny insults lol.

Hashirama shits on Hiruzen. Flower Tree World + Some Hotei Hands or Wood Dragon means he falls asleep, and gets restrained. I dunno if you guys are trying to have Hiruzen wank make a comeback, but...stop it.

5 Hiruzen clone's using wind > Flower tree world. 5 Hiruzen clone's using Wind + Fire >>>>>> Flower tree world. Wood dragon is Hashi's best chance at putting him down yes.

You can't say Base Hashi shits, and say "Hiruzen wins high diff" wanking in the same sentence lol.

Even if Hashi wins (which I originally thought), it's med diff+. I think Hiruzen is underrated, but I don't try to put him above Hashi (Not SM at least). I think Hiruzen > Minato or Tobirama, that's as far as my wanking goes.


TL;DR Stop resisting the hype.

 

[KidGamer65]

@Kidgamer



Have you ever made a fire before? You need something called wood/logs.

Have you ever read Naruto? Its the manga where real life logic can't be used in some cases. Lightning should "Logically" be a counter to Water, is it in Naruto? No. So once again, Mokuton has no elemental weakness.

Haven't read it in a while, my bad. >_>. You also have to get through Enma before Hiruzen....

Not unless he decides to sit inside of a cage the whole time. And like you said

Explain how BM Naruto got raped by Shinjuu branches then if they're so weak? Don't tell me there were too many because he could've smashed them all like Hiruzen did. (Even if they weren't attacking Hiruzen directly....he took out all of the branches attacking Naruto in 2-3 swings). I see what you're trying to say....but I think diamond is more durable than timber.

They absorb chakra, and they moved so fast that he couldn't evade while in the Kurama Avatar, doesn't help that the tree was released literally right in front of him. I hope you aren't implying that Hiruzen w/Enma has more physical power than BSM Naruto using his Kurama Avatar.

And how does the bold mean that Enma smashes Mokuton?

5 Hiruzen clone's using wind > Flower tree world. 5 Hiruzen clone's using Wind + Fire >>>>>> Flower tree world. Wood dragon is Hashi's best chance at putting him down yes.

He has to get out of the forest before he destroys it, otherwise he'll end up like the Gokage, who were unable to destroy it because they fell asleep. Onoki only did it while in the forest because he was able to resist it.

Not to mention this doesn't factor in the Kurama sized Mokuton hands that would obliterate his clones.

You can't say Base Hashi shits, and say "Hiruzen wins high diff" wanking in the same sentence lol.

Hiruzen beating Hashirama is wank. Whether we are talking about Base or Sage Mode. 5 Elemental Jutsu and Enma aren't changing that.

Even if Hashi wins (which I originally thought), it's med diff+. I think Hiruzen is underrated, but I don't try to put him above Hashi (Not SM at least). I think Hiruzen > Minato or Tobirama, that's as far as my wanking goes.

Its low-mid diff at the very highest.

And no, Hiruzen gets destroyed by either, especially if the latter has Edo Tensei.

 

[Apêx1]

Have you ever read Naruto? Its the manga where real life logic can't be used in some cases. Lightning should "Logically" be a counter to Water, is it in Naruto? No. So once again, Mokuton has no elemental weakness.

Mokuton has been shown to light on fire rather easily [

You must be registered for see links

] and fragment in the presence of a mere current of Raiton [

You must be registered for see links

]. I might be off topic on the Raiton part, or off topic on this entire post, thought I would just add this since it seems like 3 pages of debate have been going on and we're still at "if Katon counters Mokuton" when realistically, one Mokuton would end this fight.
-10 Mokuton Bunshins are made.
-Flower Tree world is used along with Jukai Kotan by one of the clones, which means attacks will occur from above and below the ground, where Enma staff won't be efficient.
-Mokuton Bunshin can travel through the Mokuton constructs as stated by Madara himself, and he had his Yasaka Magatama's travel through the Mokuton as evidence of such.
-All of Hiruzen's attacks are either blocked, parried, or healed.
-Hashirama's Hotei one shots, coupled with a Jukai Kotan from a clone within the Hotei.
All in all, it's a low diff.

 

[KidGamer65]

Mokuton has been shown to light on fire rather easily [

You must be registered for see links

] and fragment in the presence of a mere current of Raiton [

You must be registered for see links

]. I might be off topic on the Raiton part, or off topic on this entire post, thought I would just add this since it seems like 3 pages of debate have been going on and we're still at "if Katon counters Mokuton" when realistically, one Mokuton would end this fight.
-10 Mokuton Bunshins are made.
-Flower Tree world is used along with Jukai Kotan by one of the clones, which means attacks will occur from above and below the ground, where Enma staff won't be efficient.
-Mokuton Bunshin can travel through the Mokuton constructs as stated by Madara himself, and he had his Yasaka Magatama's travel through the Mokuton as evidence of such.
-All of Hiruzen's attacks are either blocked, parried, or healed.
-Hashirama's Hotei one shots, coupled with a Jukai Kotan from a clone within the Hotei.
All in all, it's a low diff.

That scan doesn't show it on fire, it shows the flame hitting it, but the only one you could possibly argue being on fire is the one in the front, and its barely on fire if it is on fire, so no, it doesn't easily catch on fire. The Raiton is just because it was strong enough to do so, and the Mokuton it hit was weak enough to be destroyed by it, especially since its a small tendril being used by Yamato.


But yeah, Hiruzen gets raped, don't know why anyone would believe otherwise.

 

[Apêx1]

That scan doesn't show it on fire, it shows the flame hitting it, but the only one you could possibly argue being on fire is the one in the front, and its barely on fire if it is on fire, so no, it doesn't easily catch on fire. The Raiton is just because it was strong enough to do so, and the Mokuton it hit was weak enough to be destroyed by it, especially since its a small tendril being used by Yamato.


But yeah, Hiruzen gets raped, don't know why anyone would believe otherwise.

You must be registered for see images

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

If you look in the red box, you can see al the flames atop of the Mokuton, though they don't seem to be spreading like a forest fire, but rather 'sitting' on the Mokuton. The Raiton was rather low in quantity, very low, I may add, so something like Hiruzen's quantity of Raiton should definitely do the same to something on the level of Hashirama's, although it is quite improbable that it will do anything productive if it's not simply destroying a branch coming his way.
People haven't gotten past 'godlike' Hiruzen with 'every Konoha jutsu' including two dojutsu. What's funny is that I thought people joked about it initially, and then came to realise they actually believe the hype.

 

[Inert Brian]

You must be registered for see images

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

If you look in the red box, you can see al the flames atop of the Mokuton, though they don't seem to be spreading like a forest fire, but rather 'sitting' on the Mokuton. The Raiton was rather low in quantity, very low, I may add, so something like Hiruzen's quantity of Raiton should definitely do the same to something on the level of Hashirama's, although it is quite improbable that it will do anything productive if it's not simply destroying a branch coming his way.
People haven't gotten past 'godlike' Hiruzen with 'every Konoha jutsu' including two dojutsu. What's funny is that I thought people joked about it initially, and then came to realise they actually believe the hype.

I wasn't sure if that last line was directed at me but...I don't necessarily "believe the hype", my theory is that Iruka's statement goes with public perception.

No one had any idea what Hashi was capable of, there's a panel where a few ninja are like "holy shat our ancestors used to fight like that".

Everyone knew what Minato and Tobirama could do, the only thing people knew about Hashi was that he could use wood style and create a forest (according to the Anbu guy).

So people just assumed because of the mass of versatility Hiruzen had (5 elements and 1000s of jutsus) that he surpassed his teachers. Which is a logical assertion, considering Fire+Wind > Standard Mokuton (does not include Buddha or Wood dragon). Earth style > Tobirama's water style, and Minato was too young to really be judged....

Basically Prime Hiruzen plays on ignorance.

 

[LuckyMan]

And that is where you are wrong. Unless you think that Hiruzen can hold and swing around a staff that weighs more than Full Kurama, this comparison doesn't work.

You must be registered for see images

It could be a special property of it, like it weights tons in everyone else's hands but light in his, like Thors hammer. That is complete speculation though and irrelevant to the topic.

The point is, it pushed Kurama out of the village so it weighed more than Kurama and Hiruzen held its weight up. Enma can also move on its own too without Hiruzen so it makes no difference if Hiruzen can't hold it.

 

[Joker]

Wasn't base Hashirama catching TBBs? Lawl, he shits.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

Wasn't base Hashirama catching TBBs? Lawl, he shits.

How is that relevant to the match up? Being able to catch TBB gives him the ability to catch elements?

 

[KidGamer65]

You must be registered for see images

It could be a special property of it, like it weights tons in everyone else's hands but light in his, like Thors hammer. That is complete speculation though and irrelevant to the topic.

The point is, it pushed Kurama out of the village so it weighed more than Kurama and Hiruzen held its weight up. Enma can also move on its own too without Hiruzen so it makes no difference if Hiruzen can't hold it.

Based on what? I've already explained why your bullet comparison doesn't work, especially since things don't weigh as much can still throw things backwards when thrown with enough force.

You must be registered for see links

Nor does that mean he can smash Mokuton.

You must be registered for see images

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

If you look in the red box, you can see al the flames atop of the Mokuton, though they don't seem to be spreading like a forest fire, but rather 'sitting' on the Mokuton. The Raiton was rather low in quantity, very low, I may add, so something like Hiruzen's quantity of Raiton should definitely do the same to something on the level of Hashirama's, although it is quite improbable that it will do anything productive if it's not simply destroying a branch coming his way.
People haven't gotten past 'godlike' Hiruzen with 'every Konoha jutsu' including two dojutsu. What's funny is that I thought people joked about it initially, and then came to realise they actually believe the hype.

Yeah, so they aren't easily catching on fire since it hasn't even spread.

Yeah, it'd do something to Hashirama's, probably to a single large branch or a bunch of small branches.

Lol, exactly. Its ridiculous and needs to stop.

 

[KidGamer65]

Selective reading much? There was no branch that came after Madara when he swung the Gundai. It was intentionally towards Hashirama, which he evaded, thus why he was in motion backing away. You can see middle panel of them standing in those position with no trees attacking, having a conversation. @Bold, Lol just stop bro in no way in shape or form is this

You must be registered for see links

bigger then this

You must be registered for see links

. @underline oh jeez, not surprise you made such a claim to state that Hashirama produces bigger Mokuton then Juubito, when Juubito was pulling out Mokuton thats about the size as SM Mokuton with ease.

Lol, what the hell?

You must be registered for see links

A branch is shown slamming down near Hashirama, which is obviously the one he evaded. The one Madara cut is the one that was attacking him, otherwise he'd have no reason to cut it.

And I was looking at the branches he smashed with Naruto, so I'll give you that point, still irrelevant to my main point since Hashirama casually creates larger Mokutons than that branch Hiruzen smashed.

What Juubito has done before or after is irrelevant as we are only comparing what Hiruzen has smashed, how hard is that for you to understand? Hashirama casually makes Mokuton larger than the branch Hiruzen smashed, stop saying that he'll smash ALL of Hashirama's Mokuton when his best feats are smashing smaller branches.

1.) That wasn't my point to begin with. You are making the comparison that Hashirama Mokuton has better durability then God Tree. I made the statement that both Juubi Jins had Hashirama cells and were already pulling out superior Mokuton then him, so your base reasoning is terrible to determine that.

Except you are using the Mokuton that were shown to be larger in scale to try and say that ALL of the Shinju's branches are stronger than any of Hashirama's Mokuton Jutsu, which makes no damn sense. Cause not every Mokuton or branch from Juubito/Shinju are equal.

The particular branches that Hiruzen smashed are nowhere near the scale of what Hashirama does. That simple.

2.) What thin part are you talking about and where do you see Minato cutting the thin part?

The part that is connecting the wrapped up humans to the large branch, can't get any clearer than that.

And he stated that he cut them from the tree, but it didn't work.

You must be registered for see links

Your telling me that using Itachi and Kisame as an example, cannot be form as evidence because they weren't reduce in overall power whens Shōten no Jutsu literally has the same similarity as what Edo Tensei does? You want me to block out legit proof for you to prove that it isn't proof lol? Itachi made it clear that he was only limited in using certain techs for not being wit full chakra.

Lol, what the hell? Edo Tensei didn't bring them back at a lesser amount of chakra, they were OVERALL weaker. Itachi and Kisame weren't overall weaker, they just had less chakra than they should have. Not the same thing at all. I suggest you get some evidence that Shoten works the same as Edo Tensei, when it comes to power and power alone.

This discussion has gone too far to even make a claim that Mokuton from Hashirama isn't going to be broken when encountering a diamond hard staff once swung. The fact that this is base Hashirama discussion to begin with, oh lawd.

"Diamond hard" isn't an argument. "Base Hashirama" isn't an argument. You are showing me him cutting a single branch from the Shinju saying that he'll smash all of Hashirama's Mokuton, when a lot of his Mokuton jutsu are larger in scale than the branches he smashed.

Enough of this argument, I'm done. I'm only going to bother focusing on why Hashirama shits on Hiruzen, cause anyone who can read the manga knows that he does.

 

[VongolaX]

By hype Hiruzen beats Hashirama...

After seeing how Enma easily cut through some shinjuu tree branch, there is no question on a counter for mokuton.

 

[KingHashirama]

By hype Hiruzen beats Hashirama...

After seeing how Enma easily cut through some shinjuu tree branch, there is no question on a counter for mokuton.

20 tbbs + Susanoo swords couldn't bring down Hashirama's strongest technique......

Yet Hiruzen had Hard time dealing with a smaller version of it.. and couldn't bring it down.. . SO much for the "counter for mokuton"

Hiruzen couldn't even beat this:

You must be registered for see images

 

[VongolaX]

20 tbbs + Susanoo swords couldn't bring down Hashirama's strongest technique......

Yet Hiruzen had Hard time dealing with a smaller version of it.. and couldn't bring it down.. . SO much for the "counter for mokuton"

Hiruzen couldn't even beat this:

You must be registered for see images

I posted by hype, that's all Hiruzen is getting really.

You can't compare the good tree to Hashirama's mokuton, it pales in comparison.

Now the ttb and Susanoo thing shouldn't be brought up like that, considering that it failed to completely destroy Madara's Susanoo.

Only half of it, didn't even touch the kyuubi yet.

Now to get back on point here, Hiruzen didn't struggle with the base Buddah because Enma was not out to destroy it....
"Hiruzen's counter."

I think that if any of them where to fight, it will end up on a high difficulty note leaving Hashirama as the victor.

 

[UltimateDeadpool]

This is interesting.

Prime Hiruzen is canonically stronger than Base Hashirama. But, this is Old Hiruzen, so this is a great challenge.

 

[Demonic.]

This thread is still going on? Lol. Hiruzen cuts one branch and now he can take on Hashirama's large scale Mokuton?

@EJ Black it's not that the people arguing against you are "wanking" Hashirama, it's just that Hashirama is that powerful. You might be hating and putting him down just a little bit. I've seen you say Tobirama beats base Hashirama.

 

[Eternal Sage]

This thread is still going on? Lol. Hiruzen cuts one branch and now he can take on Hashirama's large scale Mokuton?

@EJ Black it's not that the people arguing against you are "wanking" Hashirama, it's just that Hashirama is that powerful. You might be hating and putting him down just a little bit. I've seen you say Tobirama beats base Hashirama.

An Awesome Senju in a hashirama thread, heeeere we go.

*grabs popcorn*

 

[Inert Brian]

Kidgamer has given up on enlightening us that Hashi negs Hiruzen lol. GJ team. @Apex @Varia x boss


Although i'm still waiting to see how Mokuton > Diamond (Enma's body).

Something that should've been mentioned was how sword of Kusunagi could not scratch Enma, even if he did say it would hurt to get hit by it.

It took sasuke lightning + Kusunagi to break Mokuton.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

Lol, what the hell?
Enough of this argument, I'm done. I'm only going to bother focusing on why Hashirama shits on Hiruzen, cause anyone who can read the manga knows that he does.

Thats fine, rather than continue do this disagreement of our points:

You must be registered for see images

*Coming soon...*​

(Since I rather play video games now)

This thread is still going on? Lol. Hiruzen cuts one branch and now he can take on Hashirama's large scale Mokuton?

Yea the same large scale that carry the same scaling from Shinju roots.

@EJ Black it's not that the people arguing against you are "wanking" Hashirama, it's just that Hashirama is that powerful.

When did I say they are wanking? The only time I have mention wank, by context, is when they mention Mokuton's durability.

You might be hating and putting him down just a little bit.

Oh please. You obviously didn't read any of my arguments.

I've seen you say Tobirama beats base Hashirama.

So and thats hating? I specifically stated with broken conditions. Which in fact will be my next thread coming. Stay tune.

Kidgamer has given up on enlightening us that Hashi negs Hiruzen lol. GJ team. @Apex @Varia x boss

He never gave up.

 

[KingHashirama]

I posted by hype, that's all Hiruzen is getting really.

You can't compare the good tree to Hashirama's mokuton, it pales in comparison.

Now the ttb and Susanoo thing shouldn't be brought up like that, considering that it failed to completely destroy Madara's Susanoo.

Only half of it, didn't even touch the kyuubi yet.

Now to get back on point here, Hiruzen didn't struggle with the base Buddah because Enma was not out to destroy it....
"Hiruzen's counter."

I think that if any of them where to fight, it will end up on a high difficulty note leaving Hashirama as the victor.

Thats not the god tree... That is spiral zetsu.. a weak version of Hashirama.


And hype... yea Hashirama also has bigger hype.. rofl.


Also, the buddha did destroy the susannoo completely.. reread the chapter.. Madara himself states it..