Edo Hiruzen vs Hashirama

[Nattana]

I like how you ignored my previous post #23. Partner method gg.

Didn't see it, sorry, but how is Enma getting Hiruzen outta BoR if he's getting caught as well?

 

[Haizaki]

Once again to eachs own interpretation. I litteraly can't prove you wrong here and vise versa. As for your reasoning/example. I dontthink Soshuga is made out of ropes. It looks like the same attachment Hidan used for his weapon

I don't even get what you mean with the interpretation bit...I believe it's evident that it's made out of ropes or at least a cord Even so, the Gunbai couldn't cut through. Obito didn't cut through the rock with his Gunbai..He intended to hit Naruto with his Gunbai and had it pass through the rock..that's why Naruto is surprised here before it hits him

You must be registered for see links

 

[Brother Numpsay]

Didn't see it, sorry, but how is Enma getting Hiruzen outta BoR if he's getting caught as well?

They will be together. Hiruzen has no reason to temporally put Emna away.

I don't even get what you mean with the interpretation bit...I believe it's evident that it's made out of ropes or at least a cord Even so, the Gunbai couldn't cut through. Obito didn't cut through the rock with his Gunbai..He intended to hit Naruto with his Gunbai and had it pass through the rock..that's why Naruto is surprised here before it hits him

You must be registered for see links

My interpretation states that Guys rope is made of metallic material. The rope is very similar design to Hidan, which was stated to create metallic noises when clashed with a Kunai[

You must be registered for see links

]

 

[heyguys]

Hashirama is superior to him. Hiruzen stands a bit of a chance in his prime.

 

[Nattana]

They will be together. Hiruzen has no reason to temporally put Emna away.

Enma was like 1 step behind Hiruzen after BoR was used. He had enough time to break him out of it, especially that Orochimaru waited for Hiruzen to show him RDS and didn't use any lethal attacks. Enma simply cannot dispel BoR, nor can Hiruzen himself. Sorry, just deal with it.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

Enma was like 1 step behind Hiruzen after BoR was used. He had enough time to break him out of it, especially that Orochimaru waited for Hiruzen to show him RDS and didn't use any lethal attacks. Enma simply cannot dispel BoR, nor can Hiruzen himself. Sorry, just deal with it.

Even with 1 step,

You must be registered for see links

so your whole point is moot.

You must be registered for see links

? . Sorry, just deal with it.

 

[Haizaki]

My interpretation states that Guys rope is made of metallic material. The rope is very similar design to Hidan, which was stated to create metallic noises when clashed with a Kunai[

You must be registered for see links

]

- Not the same Material...Gai's material is farr thiner ...It took a Raikiri kunai to cut through the rocks

You must be registered for see links

.. Unless we're implying Gai's material is harder to pierce through than a rock.

- Notice how Gai can easily spin his soshuga here because of the rope

You must be registered for see links

 

[Brother Numpsay]

- Not the same Material...Gai's material is farr thiner ...It took a Raikiri kunai to cut through the rocks

You must be registered for see links

.. Unless we're implying Gai's material is harder to pierce through than a rock.

Why does it matter it ifs thiner or not and how does width disprove it? Why would I imply that it can pierce, when Gai shown that its weapon base is for smashing/basing, which canonically did smash boulders.

- Notice how Gai can easily spin his soshuga here because of the rope

You must be registered for see links

Ok? they're metal cabling that is able to do that. At lease Hidans[

You must be registered for see links

]

 

[Nattana]

Even with 1 step,

You must be registered for see links

so your whole point is moot.

You must be registered for see links

? . Sorry, just deal with it.

You must be registered for see links

Enma couldn't do shit once BoR was out. And Hiruzen getting blitzed doesn't change anything, since he just got hit a few times and was moved from his initial position by like half a meter. Enma didn't even turn back to his normal form to do something. He was useless.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

You must be registered for see links

Enma couldn't do shit once BoR was out. And Hiruzen getting blitzed doesn't change anything, since he just got hit a few times and was moved from his initial position by like half a meter. Enma didn't even turn back to his normal form to do something. He was useless.

The scan I post showed when BoR was out he was no where near Hiruzen. My argument shows if they stay together, since Hiruzen has no reason to put him away, no matter the distance. They touch each other and break each other out.

 

[DMT]

Edo Hiruzen mid difficulty

 

[Haizaki]

Why does it matter it ifs thiner or not and how does width disprove it? Why would I imply that it can pierce, when Gai shown that its weapon base is for smashing/basing, which canonically did smash boulders.



Ok? they're metal cabling that is able to do that. At lease Hidans[

You must be registered for see links

]

You need proof to back up the fact that they're the same. Saying they're both the same because a basic kunai thrown ( which won't be able to cut through trees) couldn't cut Hidan's material in order to justify the fact that the Gunbai couldn't cut through Gai's Soshuga. Not when Gai's material showed to be different. Hidan's showed the ability to bend in such away Gai's can't

You must be registered for see links

.

A Raikiri Kunai was required to cut through the rocks, A basic Kunai( despite only being thrown) couldn't cut through Hidan's cable further showing a basic Kunai as well won't be enough to cut through the rocks. Unless you think the Gunbai has the same cutting power as the Raikiri Kunai.

 

[KidGamer65]

If it strikes with enough force it will and it also depends on the composition of the objects which in this case is wood and diamond. Kurama weights tons (god knows how many) but Enma had to weight way more to push it out of the village that easy. The speed at which it propels and the force of all that weight condensed and compacted into that little staff will rip open through Mokuton. Think of it as a bullet hitting an apple.

And that is where you are wrong. Unless you think that Hiruzen can hold and swing around a staff that weighs more than Full Kurama, this comparison doesn't work. Its not like a bullet hitting an apple since a bullet is shot and has nothing supporting it from behind after being fired. Enma has Hiruzen holding it, in a stationary position, as the staff continuously extends and pushes Kurama away.

To each own interpretation, as it looks like you can see the boulder being cut, to where I am circling it:

You must be registered for see images

Those aren't cuts, that's because of the Gunbai phasing through it. Near Obito's arms, you can see a similar effect, but not exactly the same.

Then please tell me whats its priories as a weapon?

Defense, and it can be used as offense to, but it isn't primarily a cutting weapon. War Fans aren't cutting weapons.

Why are we arguing of overpowering ninjutsu? Thats completely irrelevant. Of course he isn't going to base off his fighting cutting off Mokury and Mokujin + HAshirarma. The argument wouldnt make sense.

We are talking about all Mokuton here. At least I was, don't know what you are talking about. Mokujin and Mokuryu are Mokuton, thus they are included in my statement. Madara doesn't bother fighting Mokuton with his Gunbai, so your earlier claims are false.

Completely irreverent to what Shinju was able to take and what Hashirama was able to take. We are talking about how durable Mokuton is itself. Only 1 Buijuudama was needed to destroy and break Mokuton. Both Base and SM boost. Only one cut of PS sword was able to break Mokuton itself. Both Base and SM boost.

Quad Bijuu Dama obliterated SM Mokujin. 1 Bijuu Dama obliterated Mokujin and Mokuryu and a forest of Mokuton, yet the dome protected him from the explosion. Far greater than anything the Shinju has ever taken.

PS has never cut Sage Enhanced Mokuton.

The Shinju's branches aren't as strong as Mokuton. Anyone reading the manga should be able to tell the difference the moment fodders started cutting the Shinju's branches.

Only base on one reasoning for that statement is that it only challenge certain power level jutsu on screen.

What are you even saying here?

Wait? So your basically making a statement that Madara can defeat Shinju with Gunbai alone? What I am saying makes perfect sense.

No, I'm saying that Hiruzen smashing the branches doesn't mean shit when claiming he'll smash all of Hashirama's Mokuton the same way, because Madara cut the same branches with his Gunbai. The whole tree didn't attack Madara, only parts of the branches attacked him, so no, what you are saying makes no sense.

Except we talking about Mokuton durability itself.

Ok? Weaker Mokuton=Less durability as its weaker in every way. Don't mention Part 1 Hashirama again when we are talking about Part 2 Hashirama, at full power.

Once again your basing it on one reasoning to state Shinju<Hashirama, which is completely wrong to do.

Not really. They all cut the same branches that Hiruzen cut, that is what I'm basing my statement on. The whole tree, or the rest of the tree is irrelevant.

That it doesn't matter what power up it gets, when the same tech gave the same results. Thus shouldn't be used as reasoning of Hashirama Mokuton durability level.

Lol, and once again, you are using shitty ass logic. Are we really serious with this? The power up not rendering certain Mokuton durable enough to tank PS Slashes, only means that the boost wasn't enough, not that no matter what boost it gets, it'd be smashed by the same thing.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

Those aren't cuts, that's because of the Gunbai phasing through it. Near Obito's arms, you can see a similar effect, but not exactly the same.

The slice line that wasn't in Gunbai hitbox indicates that a physical force is cutting through. Your reasoning is as plausible as mine. Your reasoning makes sense while mine also. If we go by what the anime interpreted, who would be right? @Bold elaborate.

Defense, and it can be used as offense to, but it isn't primarily a cutting weapon. War Fans aren't cutting weapons.

The fan is very thick and was able to clash with a broad sword on its edge, where its least effective for defence. The flat around (to which the defense is focused) is more for defensive purposes. @Bold good thing this is a fictional version.

We are talking about all Mokuton here. At least I was, don't know what you are talking about. Mokujin and Mokuryu are Mokuton, thus they are included in my statement. Madara doesn't bother fighting Mokuton with his Gunbai, so your earlier claims are false.

Because this isn't argument of battling but the durability of its Mokuton. Your using battle situation to reason that Gunbai is unable to cut Hashirama's Mokuton.

Quad Bijuu Dama obliterated SM Mokujin. 1 Bijuu Dama obliterated Mokujin and Mokuryu and a forest of Mokuton, yet the dome protected him from the explosion. Far greater than anything the Shinju has ever taken.

The dome wasn't where the energy was focus. Bunkers construct ("Hobi") are built to endure, absorb impact from shockwave and disasters like tornado and bombs. If a direct hit were to occur, it isn't going to tank an explosion.

PS has never cut Sage Enhanced Mokuton.

PS weapon being fused inside TBB is still a valid reason that it will cut Mokuton. Therefore I can make that claim

The Shinju's branches aren't as strong as Mokuton. Anyone reading the manga should be able to tell the difference the moment fodders started cutting the Shinju's branches.

You have yet shown how Hashirama is superior then Shinju, once again using bad reasoning that indicates why it does. Anyone reading the manga would know Madara having Hashirama cells made him = to Hashirama Mokuton.

What are you even saying here?

Your basing your reasoning that Hashirama's Mokuton > Shinju because Hashirama has faced superior character, that was damaging his Mokuton. Therefore since we haven't seen anyone who faced Hashirama Mokuton, only Madara power level attack can damage Hashirama's Mokuton.

No, I'm saying that Hiruzen smashing the branches doesn't mean shit when claiming he'll smash all of Hashirama's Mokuton the same way, because Madara cut the same branches with his Gunbai. The whole tree didn't attack Madara, only parts of the branches attacked him, so no, what you are saying makes no sense.

Read above of your reasoning. Your indicating an diamond staff isn't going to be able to break Hashirama's Mokuton because he faced Madara, who has superior abilities.

Ok? Weaker Mokuton=Less durability as its weaker in every way. Don't mention Part 1 Hashirama again when we are talking about Part 2 Hashirama, at full power.

@Bold where is your proof? We have seen countless time that characters were nerfed, or using a percentage of their power. Not being at his peaked has only shown that he can only perform certain/limited amount of techniques/moves.

Not really. They all cut the same branches that Hiruzen cut, that is what I'm basing my statement on. The whole tree, or the rest of the tree is irrelevant.

Yes you are. Your saying that Hiruzen, Sasuke, fodders, and others cutting the branch aren't superior to Madara attack power. Therefore Hashirama's Mokuton is superior to the Juubi Jin.

Lol, and once again, you are using shitty ass logic. Are we really serious with this? The power up not rendering certain Mokuton durable enough to tank PS Slashes, only means that the boost wasn't enough, not that no matter what boost it gets, it'd be smashed by the same thing.

No the only one use shit logic is you. You are overwhelm with this wank to even indicate Hashirama's Mokuton is superior then The Juubi Jin. You are stating Hashirama had more hardship of attack power then the Juubi has, thus making it superior.

Manga completely disagrees that Hashirama is any where near the Juubi's ability of Mokuton. For starters Madara w/ Hashirama cells was already on par with Hashirama's Mokuton, Fact. Once he gain Six Paths body he was able to perform a superior version of Jukai. You can either say through Hashirama cells with Juubi boost or the Sage body that can naturally use use all KKG and ninjutsu.

This Hashirama wank needs to stop clouding judgement here

 

[AlphaMaleLion]

You've gotta be kiddin me, Hashirama neg diffs Hiruzen

 

[Inert Brian]

People do know this is base Hashi right?

Wind + Fire gives him an elemental advantage over Hashirama. (He countered the Buddha, the 5 Kage couldn't do ****. They were all healed so it's hard to really take that away from them as well)

Hiruzen also pushed Kurama out of the village with one push by Enma. Let's not forget Enma was stated to be as hard as diamond. So I fail to see how Mokuton will really damage Enma (the best he can do is pollen world which puts him to sleep, but that can get countered by wind). Hashirama was forced to pull out SM and was running away from Madara and Kurama. Enma shits on Mokuton. Enma cage saved Hiruzen from deep forest emergence in part 1. Enma in rapid succession demolished branches from the origin of chakra. Thinking Hashi's wood is somehow stronger than the wood comprised of chakra's origin is far fetched, they should be equal at best.

TL;DR

Hiruzen took on Kurama, Base Hashi ran to buy time for sage mode because he knew he was weaker. Enma has cannonically countered Mokuton twice.

I confidently think Edo Hiruzen takes this high difficulty. He has every possible counter to Hashi. His biggest issue would be Wood dragon leeching on to Enma, but due to Enma's extreme expansion feats, wood dragon isn't going to be able to take him out as easily.

 

[KidGamer65]

@EJBlack: At the end of the day, when that branch came after him, all that was needed to cut it was his Gunbai. Branches that were even bigger than the ones Hiruzen cut. Hashirama's branches are much bigger than the ones Hiruzen smashed. Hiruzen smashing smaller branches doesn't mean he'll smash all Mokuton when all Mokuton isn't as small as the branches he smashed. "Hurr durr Shinju" "Hurr durr Juubi Jin" isn't an argument.

-Stop mentioning Shin Jukai Kotan as:

1) The main branches were never smashed by anyone, nor was anything around their size ever smashed by anyone.

2) Minato only cut the

You must be registered for see links

connecting them to the branch, or is that part more durable than all of Hashirama's Mokuton because its "hurr durr Shinju" Lol.


3) It uses the Shinju's branches, which we are comparing here.

As for this:

@Bold where is your proof? We have seen countless time that characters were nerfed, or using a percentage of their power. Not being at his peaked has only shown that he can only perform certain/limited amount of techniques/moves.

Considering who I'm arguing with, I shouldn't be surprised. Weaker Mokuton=Weaker Branches=Not as durable. Gonna need proof of people not being at their full power, but their jutsu weren't nerfed. Make sure it relates to the topic.

The only thing you have supporting this idiotic belief that Part 1 Mokuton=Part 2 Mokuton is because of scale. Which is idiotic, of course. Lol.

-Itachi and Kisame isn't a form evidence since they only had 30% chakra, they weren't reduced in overall power.

People do know this is base Hashi right?

Wind + Fire gives him an elemental advantage over Hashirama. (He countered the Buddha, the 5 Kage couldn't do ****. They were all healed so it's hard to really take that away from them as well)

And since when was Wind and Fire Mokuton's elemental weakness? Lol. Oh wait, never.

Hiruzen also pushed Kurama out of the village with one push by Enma. Let's not forget Enma was stated to be as hard as diamond. So I fail to see how Mokuton will really damage Enma (the best he can do is pollen world which puts him to sleep, but that can get countered by wind). Hashirama was forced to pull out SM and was running away from Madara and Kurama.

Wow...did you even read Hashirama vs Madara? He was handling Kurama and Madara until PS came out. He had to run from PS Kurama and enter Sage Mode. Key words PS Kurama. So no, this is wrong. He doesn't need to damage Enma since all he needs to do is slaughter Hiruzen.

Enma shits on Mokuton. Enma cage saved Hiruzen from deep forest emergence in part 1. Enma in rapid succession demolished branches from the origin of chakra. Thinking Hashi's wood is somehow stronger than the wood comprised of chakra's origin is far fetched, they should be equal at best.

Its hilarious how you people actually base Hiruzen vs Hashirama's full power Mokuton, on Enma's performance against a severely weakened Hashirama's Mokuton. "Hurr durr Origin of Chakra" isn't an argument for why smashing those particular branches means that he can cut up all Mokuton. Mifune cut the Shinju's branches, I guess he'd fodderize all of Hashirama's Mokuton just like that.

Hiruzen smashing smaller branches doesnt' mean he can smash larger ones. Its really that simple at the end of the day.

TL;DR

Hiruzen took on Kurama, Base Hashi ran to buy time for sage mode because he knew he was weaker. Enma has cannonically countered Mokuton twice.

"TL;DR" must be what you did when you read that part of the manga. In what universe is pushing Kurama away "taking it on?" In what universe did Hashirama run from Kurama alone? Cause I'm 110% sure that Kurama AND Madara's Susanoo were staring him down. Nice try though.

TL;DR: You're wrong.

I confidently think Edo Hiruzen takes this high difficulty. He has every possible counter to Hashi. His biggest issue would be Wood dragon leeching on to Enma, but due to Enma's extreme expansion feats, wood dragon isn't going to be able to take him out as easily.

Hashirama shits on Hiruzen. Flower Tree World + Some Hotei Hands or Wood Dragon means he falls asleep, and gets restrained. I dunno if you guys are trying to have Hiruzen wank make a comeback, but...stop it.

 

[Kagustuchi]

Hashirama negs.​

​

 

[Eternal Sage]

hashirama wins if he can use the flowers in base, which I think he can

 

[Brother Numpsay]

@EJBlack: At the end of the day, when that branch came after him, all that was needed to cut it was his Gunbai. Branches that were even bigger than the ones Hiruzen cut. Hashirama's branches are much bigger than the ones Hiruzen smashed. Hiruzen smashing smaller branches doesn't mean he'll smash all Mokuton when all Mokuton isn't as small as the branches he smashed. "Hurr durr Shinju" "Hurr durr Juubi Jin" isn't an argument.

Selective reading much? There was no branch that came after Madara when he swung the Gundai. It was intentionally towards Hashirama, which he evaded, thus why he was in motion backing away. You can see middle panel of them standing in those position with no trees attacking, having a conversation. @Bold, Lol just stop bro in no way in shape or form is this

You must be registered for see links

bigger then this

You must be registered for see links

. @underline oh jeez, not surprise you made such a claim to state that Hashirama produces bigger Mokuton then Juubito, when Juubito was pulling out Mokuton thats about the size as SM Mokuton with ease.

-Stop mentioning Shin Jukai Kotan as:

1) The main branches were never smashed by anyone, nor was anything around their size ever smashed by anyone.

2) Minato only cut the

You must be registered for see links

connecting them to the branch, or is that part more durable than all of Hashirama's Mokuton because its "hurr durr Shinju" Lol.


3) It uses the Shinju's branches, which we are comparing here.

1.) That wasn't my point to begin with. You are making the comparison that Hashirama Mokuton has better durability then God Tree. I made the statement that both Juubi Jins had Hashirama cells and were already pulling out superior Mokuton then him, so your base reasoning is terrible to determine that.


2.) What thin part are you talking about and where do you see Minato cutting the thin part?

Considering who I'm arguing with, I shouldn't be surprised. Weaker Mokuton=Weaker Branches=Not as durable. Gonna need proof of people not being at their full power, but their jutsu weren't nerfed. Make sure it relates to the topic.



The only thing you have supporting this idiotic belief that Part 1 Mokuton=Part 2 Mokuton is because of scale. Which is idiotic, of course. Lol.

-Itachi and Kisame isn't a form evidence since they only had 30% chakra, they weren't reduced in overall power.

Your telling me that using Itachi and Kisame as an example, cannot be form as evidence because they weren't reduce in overall power whens Shōten no Jutsu literally has the same similarity as what Edo Tensei does? You want me to block out legit proof for you to prove that it isn't proof lol? Itachi made it clear that he was only limited in using certain techs for not being wit full chakra.

This discussion has gone too far to even make a claim that Mokuton from Hashirama isn't going to be broken when encountering a diamond hard staff once swung. The fact that this is base Hashirama discussion to begin with, oh lawd.