Edo Hiruzen vs Hashirama

Brother Numpsay

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Restriction: SM and RDS

Location: SA vs Juubi

Distance: Reasonable.

Condition: Hiruzen master nature manipulation with all elements.
 

NSUNSR

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How does Hiruzen even stand a chance here?
 

Ababeel

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Hiruzen wins.

Hashirama does not have any sealing jutsu, and therefor he has no way of winning this.
 

Brother Numpsay

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Hiruzen wins.

Hashirama does not have any sealing jutsu, and therefor he has no way of winning this.

He still has options to put him in a position that he can't fight anymore

How does Hiruzen even stand a chance here?

Hiruzen canonically counter Mokuton in part 1 and part 2 series, so I am waiting to hear how Hashirama wins here.
 

KidGamer65

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Hiruzen canonically counter Mokuton in part 1 and part 2 series,

Countering Weak Edo Hashirama's Mokuton and countering the Shinju's branches (Which Madara even cut with his Gunbai) doesn't equate to him countering Mokuton in Part II.

Hiruzen winning is probably one of the worst jokes I've heard all week. Hashirama clowns him.
 

Brother Numpsay

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Countering Weak Edo Hashirama's Mokuton and countering the Shinju's branches (Which Madara even cut with his Gunbai) doesn't equate to him countering Mokuton in Part II.

Hiruzen winning is probably one of the worst jokes I've heard all week. Hashirama clowns him.

Do you have evidence that states Shinju is inferior to Hashirama's Mokuton?
 

Ababeel

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He still has options to put him in a position that he can't fight anymore

like what?
because he seemed to me that he needed help in madara's case. O_O
 

KidGamer65

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Do you have evidence that states Shinju is inferior to Hashirama's Mokuton?

Madara casually cuts it with his Gunbai (which isn't even a weapon made for cutting), yet he needs Susanoo to fight against Hashirama's Mokuton. Fodder Samurai cut it, yet Madara needs Susanoo to fight against Hashirama's Mokuton. Should be self explanatory from just reading the manga.

You are the one who should be providing evidence that the Shinju's branches are more or as durable than Hashirama's Mokuton constructs since you made the claim that destroying Shinju branches means that he can destroy Mokuton.
 

Brother Numpsay

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like what?
because he seemed to me that he needed help in madara's case. O_O

Gates suppresses chakra, if Enma is taken out, no one is going to break him out.

Im going to sleep will counter post later
 

Nattana

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This has to be a joke. Hashirama shitstomps. Hell, Hiruzen couldn't even break out of Bringer of Darkness from a P1 Edo Hashirama and he had to resort to some sniffing Inuzuka technique...
 

ARGUS

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Hashirama wrecks him...., horribly
Only the usual hashi haters will disagree
 

WalksInShadows

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Hiruzen wins.

Hashirama does not have any sealing jutsu, and therefor he has no way of winning this.
constriction from a Mokuton Dragon renders the victim's ability to use ninjutsu useless. I'd say that is a way :|
 

Selan

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Hashirama shits on him. That isn't even worth to be debated.
 

Brother Numpsay

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Madara casually cuts it with his Gunbai (which isn't even a weapon made for cutting),

If it wasn't made from cutting then how the hell was Obito able to slice through giant boulders with it, when it took Kakashi raiton infuse kunai to barrage through it all? And how the hell was Madara able to clash with Hashirama broad sword, something made to cut?

yet he needs Susanoo to fight against Hashirama's Mokuton. Fodder Samurai cut it, yet Madara needs Susanoo to fight against Hashirama's Mokuton. Should be self explanatory from just reading the manga.

That is very bad reasoning. Madara's whole fighting style revolved around Susanoo so stating Susanoo cutting/power level isn't a good reason to state that thats the only ability to damage Hashirama's Mokuton. What do you think Madara was doing during the time he had no Susanoo, to counter Mokuton[ ]?

Y
ou are the one who should be providing evidence that the Shinju's branches are more or as durable than Hashirama's Mokuton constructs since you made the claim that destroying Shinju branches means that he can destroy Mokuton.

The evidence is simple. Juubi Jinjiruki>>Hashirama. Their ability nearly comes from the same source and yet Juubi's version had shown to absorb much better then Hashirama, which Mokuton is based on suppression and absorption. The ABC you are using doesn't prove anything to state Hashirama's is superior. Here is two ways to look at it.

1.) If you are going by Mokuton levels by battle encounters, then should we conclude that Danzo's Mokuton = Hashirama? Since Mokuton was shown that it can only be pierce by Susanoo arrow? Going by your reasoning, I can make that argument.

2.) Part 1 Hashirama being inferior then himself in part 2 =/= Mokuton changing in ability. Since both Hiruzen and Hashirama has been upgraded in part 2 in comparison. Hashirama Mokuton had a new scaling and so did Hiruzen ninjutsu. They're scaling were about the same level of ninjutsu clash.

Mokuton durability has been grossly overrated. It wasn't built for that at all. One of the Edo Hokages stated breaking down breaches from Shin Jukai (greatest Mokuton shown).

Hashirama couldn't counter PSsword+TBB in Base form + in SM Mokuton. Too many examples to stated Mokuton superior in durability.
 

KidGamer65

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If it wasn't made from cutting then how the hell was Obito able to slice through giant boulders with it, when it took Kakashi raiton infuse kunai to barrage through it all?

Read the manga.


He phased through them. He didn't cut through them. Just like he did when he jumped at Naruto, he jumped through the rock.

Don't compare the Gunbai to Kakashi's Raikiri Kunai barrage. Lol, if that is what you're intent is.

And how the hell was Madara able to clash with Hashirama broad sword, something made to cut?

Um, last time I checked, you don't need to have a cutting weapon to clash with something that cuts. Does Enma cut? Nope. But he clashed with the Kusanagi blade.



That is very bad reasoning. Madara's whole fighting style revolved around Susanoo so stating Susanoo cutting/power level isn't a good reason to state that thats the only ability to damage Hashirama's Mokuton. What do you think Madara was doing during the time he had no Susanoo, to counter Mokuton[ ]?
Uh, no, its not. Everytime he fights Hashirama, he jumps to Susanoo because it is the best thing in his arsenal. He isn't going to overpower shit like his Mokuryu and Mokujin with weaker attacks, hence he goes straight to Susanoo. Bad reasoning is what you are using. At that time period, he was using Katon, as you can see, and Hashirama's Mokuton was nowhere near as strong as it is now.

Past Madara countering Past Hashirama's weaker Mokuton with Katon=/=Current Madara not needing Susanoo to combat current Hashirama's Mokuton.

The evidence is simple. Juubi Jinjiruki>>Hashirama. Their ability nearly comes from the same source and yet Juubi's version had shown to absorb much better then Hashirama, which Mokuton is based on suppression and absorption. The ABC you are using doesn't prove anything to state Hashirama's is superior. Here is two ways to look at it.
Lol, shit logic once again. Obito being stronger than Hashirama doesn't mean shit. Fodders were cutting the Shinju's branches, yet it took 11 Bijuu Dama to take down Hashirama's strongest Mokuton. If I went this logic, then the Shinju's branches would be more durable than SS, so then I'd be saying that fodders can cut down Shinsuusenju.

Hashirama's Mokuton has shown to be more durable. Its that simple. Why are you mentioning absorption when I never once mentioned absorption?

1.) If you are going by Mokuton levels by battle encounters, then should we conclude that Danzo's Mokuton = Hashirama? Since Mokuton was shown that it can only be pierce by Susanoo arrow? Going by your reasoning, I can make that argument.
Not really. My reasoning is, Madara needs something stronger than his Gunbai to fight against Hashirama's Mokuton, thus the Gunbai isn't cutting it. My reasoning is, that Hashirama's Mokuton (certain Mokuton) have shown to be stronger and more durable than the Shinju's branches.

What you are saying doesn't even make sense.

2.) Part 1 Hashirama being inferior then himself in part 2 =/= Mokuton changing in ability. Since both Hiruzen and Hashirama has been upgraded in part 2 in comparison. Hashirama Mokuton had a new scaling and so did Hiruzen ninjutsu. They're scaling were about the same level of ninjutsu clash.
Part 1 Hashirama being weaker means that his jutsu weaker, meaning that his Mokuton is weaker. I hope you aren't trying to argue that both their Mokuton is equal even though its outright stated that Edo Hashirama in Part 2>>Edo Hashirama in part 1.


Mokuton durability has been grossly overrated. It wasn't built for that at all. One of the Edo Hokages stated breaking down breaches from Shin Jukai (greatest Mokuton shown).
Thin branches from the Shinju, the same tree that was getting raped by fodders. Lol. The same branches that were getting cut down by Minato, who had no arms? We are comparing Hashirama's Mokuton to the Shinju's branches that Madara cut, and you are using the Shinju's shit durability to downgrade Hashirama's Mokuton?

Lol, lets stop this nonsense.

Hashirama couldn't counter PSsword+TBB in Base form + in SM Mokuton. Too many examples to stated Mokuton superior in durability.

Your point?
 

LuckyMan

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The question is that will the propulsion of a diamond hard staff shatter Hashirama wood constructs? Considering it pushed Kurama out of Konoha it may very well bust them all open so I see Hiruzen winning with medium difficulty.
 

Apêx1

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Flower Tree world gg.
 

KidGamer65

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The question is that will the propulsion of a diamond hard staff shatter Hashirama wood constructs? Considering it pushed Kurama out of Konoha it may very well bust them all open so I see Hiruzen winning with medium difficulty.

Smh......this wank is ridiculous. Since when was the staff pushing something a way to determine if it could smash something if it was struck against said object? Makes no sense.
 

Brother Numpsay

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Read the manga.


He phased through them. He didn't cut through them. Just like he did when he jumped at Naruto, he jumped through the rock.

Don't compare the Gunbai to Kakashi's Raikiri Kunai barrage. Lol, if that is what you're intent is.

To each own interpretation, as it looks like you can see the boulder being cut, to where I am circling it:
You must be registered for see images


Um, last time I checked, you don't need to have a cutting weapon to clash with something that cuts. Does Enma cut? Nope. But he clashed with the Kusanagi blade.

Then please tell me whats its priories as a weapon?


Uh, no, its not. Everytime he fights Hashirama, he jumps to Susanoo because it is the best thing in his arsenal. He isn't going to overpower shit like his Mokuryu and Mokujin with weaker attacks, hence he goes straight to Susanoo. Bad reasoning is what you are using. At that time period, he was using Katon, as you can see, and Hashirama's Mokuton was nowhere near as strong as it is now.

Past Madara countering Past Hashirama's weaker Mokuton with Katon=/=Current Madara not needing Susanoo to combat current Hashirama's Mokuton.

Why are we arguing of overpowering ninjutsu? Thats completely irrelevant. Of course he isn't going to base off his fighting cutting off Mokury and Mokujin + HAshirarma. The argument wouldnt make sense.

Lol, shit logic once again. Obito being stronger than Hashirama doesn't mean shit. Fodders were cutting the Shinju's branches, yet it took 11 Bijuu Dama to take down Hashirama's strongest Mokuton. If I went this logic, then the Shinju's branches would be more durable than SS, so then I'd be saying that fodders can cut down Shinsuusenju.

Completely irreverent to what Shinju was able to take and what Hashirama was able to take. We are talking about how durable Mokuton is itself. Only 1 Buijuudama was needed to destroy and break Mokuton. Both Base and SM boost. Only one cut of PS sword was able to break Mokuton itself. Both Base and SM boost.

Hashirama's Mokuton has shown to be more durable. Its that simple. Why are you mentioning absorption when I never once mentioned absorption?

Only base on one reasoning for that statement is that it only challenge certain power level jutsu on screen.

Not really. My reasoning is, Madara needs something stronger than his Gunbai to fight against Hashirama's Mokuton, thus the Gunbai isn't cutting it. My reasoning is, that Hashirama's Mokuton (certain Mokuton) have shown to be stronger and more durable than the Shinju's branches.

What you are saying doesn't even make sense.

Wait? So your basically making a statement that Madara can defeat Shinju with Gunbai alone? What I am saying makes perfect sense.

Part 1 Hashirama being weaker means that his jutsu weaker, meaning that his Mokuton is weaker. I hope you aren't trying to argue that both their Mokuton is equal even though its outright stated that Edo Hashirama in Part 2>>Edo Hashirama in part 1.

Except we talking about Mokuton durability itself.

Thin branches from the Shinju, the same tree that was getting raped by fodders. Lol. The same branches that were getting cut down by Minato, who had no arms? We are comparing Hashirama's Mokuton to the Shinju's branches that Madara cut, and you are using the Shinju's shit durability to downgrade Hashirama's Mokuton?

Lol, lets stop this nonsense.

Once again your basing it on one reasoning to state Shinju<Hashirama, which is completely wrong to do.

Your point?

That it doesn't matter what power up it gets, when the same tech gave the same results. Thus shouldn't be used as reasoning of Hashirama Mokuton durability level.
 

LuckyMan

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Smh......this wank is ridiculous. Since when was the staff pushing something a way to determine if it could smash something if it was struck against said object? Makes no sense.

If it strikes with enough force it will and it also depends on the composition of the objects which in this case is wood and diamond. Kurama weights tons (god knows how many) but Enma had to weight way more to push it out of the village that easy. The speed at which it propels and the force of all that weight condensed and compacted into that little staff will rip open through Mokuton. Think of it as a bullet hitting an apple.
 
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