DRSM Madara vs DMS kakashi

Eng nawashi

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I guess you missed the part were 1 limbo shat on 9 bijuus, so 4 limbos would shit all over kakashi's PS from all directions, on top of madara also attacking with susano kunais, yasaka magatamas from a far, kakashi would be totally ****ed, getting hit from all angles
All of these get tanked with no damage att all .limbo has merely knocked them down .no single biju has been damaged at all ,just look at kuarma avatar ,which is faaaaar below kakashi's PS.yasaka magatamas wont do shit either to kakashi PS .
 

Uchihakil

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All of these get tanked with no damage att all .limbo has merely knocked them down .no single biju has been damaged at all ,just look at kuarma avatar ,which is faaaaar below kakashi's PS.yasaka magatamas wont do shit either to kakashi PS .
Dude if 1 limbo is strong enough to knock down 9 bijuus in an instant, I dont see kakashi fighting normally, he will be bashed from all directions, yes he can tank that, but it does'nt mean he would be in shape to fight normally, getting hit from multiple directions without knowing what's hitting you, and he aint tanking madara's PS sword, a couple of slashes would deal damage (that is if limbo dont wear susano and f*ck kakashi up), limbo would knock his ass down, and SS shits on him
 

Eng nawashi

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Dude if 1 limbo is strong enough to knock down 9 bijuus in an instant, I dont see kakashi fighting normally, he will be bashed from all directions, yes he can tank that, but it does'nt mean he would be in shape to fight normally, getting hit from multiple directions without knowing what's hitting you, and he aint tanking madara's PS sword, a couple of slashes would deal damage (that is if limbo dont wear susano and f*ck kakashi up), limbo would knock his ass down, and SS shits on him
I see .that can work if PS would get knocked down and pushed away like the Biju.that would give Madara'PS the upper hand against Kakashi's PS but kakashi can fly with his PS where limbo can't reach him since it can't fly .whereas Kakashi can easily rip Madara's PS off by kamui snipe .
@bold sure in thousands years :lol.
If Madara can use SS of The same size of Hashirams's (doubtful)but stronger then he can win.
 

Uchihakil

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I see .that can work if PS would get knocked down and pushed away like the Biju.that would give Madara'PS the upper hand against Kakashi's PS but kakashi can fly with his PS where limbo can't reach him since it can't fly .whereas Kakashi can easily rip Madara's PS off by kamui snipe .
@bold sure in thousands years :lol.
If Madara can use SS of The same size of Hashirams's (doubtful)but stronger then he can win.
He can surely make one as big or even bigger than hashi's, he has hashi's sage mode, plus his own reserve, boosted by rinnegan or rikudou chakra, hashi aint got rikudou chakra, and yea, limbo can fly with either ashuura jet boots, rinnegan gravity control (kinda like deva levitating), or rinne bird
 

Eng nawashi

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He can surely make one as big or even bigger than hashi's, he has hashi's sage mode, plus his own reserve, boosted by rinnegan or rikudou chakra, hashi aint got rikudou chakra, and yea, limbo can fly with either ashuura jet boots, rinnegan gravity control (kinda like deva levitating), or rinne bird
His senjutsu chakra is less than hashirama's .no idea how big is rikudo chakra and rinnegan chakra .so no he cant necessarily use SS of the same size of hashirama's .
Limbo wasnt shown to use the original's techs otherwise there is no point in starting this argument .you yourself didnt consider them to be capable of using techs till I proved how they would be useless .
Not sure if madara can summon this bird but it gets wrecked by shock wave or sniped by kamui .
 

NarutoX28

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I'm quite sure Hagoromo said Madara was approaching his and his mother's power after already attaining the ten-tails.
He stated that he was using the Juubi's Power to approach his and her power meaning that he needed the Juubi to obtain the complete power of the Six Paths:



Therefore, having both Rinnegan doesn't mean that DRSM Madara had that power unless Nagato did as well which doesn't make sense.


No where was it mentioned he improved physically (though I will give the possibility of it happening). Don't mention him catching up to Madara because it's unknown whether he used Amenotejikara or not as we weren't shown the chase. Kakashi himself was nothing special in the first place, and besides that, you can't compare the effectiveness of it upgrading any techniques because he never had Perfect Susano'o prior. So once again, not once ounce of any comparable power differences in techniques. I said sage chakra because Black Chidori comes from sage chakra.
Sasuke received 1/2 of Hagoromo's Chakra which is heavily composed of very powerful Physical Energy, so he did improve physically. Why wouldn't that be the case if Sasuke managed to Shunshin and bisect Juubidara in half before he initiated the reaction to even warp away. Juubidara even admitted that Sasuke was fast.

Sasuke didn't use Ameno because Juubidara admitted that he was out of range, so what Sasuke most likely did was use Ameno to close the distance and flickered the rest of the distance to strike him.

That doesn't matter. Kakashi admitted that his abilities improved drastically due to Rikudou's Chakra, therefore, Rikudou Chakra enhances his abilities.

I know that Black Chidori is a result of Rikudou's Chakra. I'm confused on how "Sage Chakra" is any different than Rikudou's Chakra.


I'm not going to comment on the Indra case, because there's a reason I didn't account for quality.
What's the reason then? If we don't take into account of the quality of their abilities, than EMS Sasuke > Indra by default.

As for EMS Madara being equivalent to EMS Sasuke, that is the case indeed. If Kurama is restricted, what makes Madara so much stronger than Sasuke that it makes an argument?
1. EMS Madara's PS is at least the size of Full Kurama whereas EMS Sasuke's PS is only slightly greater than 50% Kurama at best.

2. By feats, EMS Madara's PS is physically stronger than EMS Sasuke's PS and I can go more in depth if need be.

3. By feats, EMS Madara's PS is much more durable than EMS Sasuke's PS and I can go more in depth if need be.

EMS Madara's PS by far, wasn't just on par with EMS Sasuke's.

As for DRSM Madara and Six Paths Sasuke:
1. This doesn't matter. I'm assuming Madara can switch between the Sharingan and Rinnegan, and even if he couldn't, it still doesn't matter because we don't know what his Mangekyou techniques are besides Susano'o (which he can use without having them active). The point about Kaguya doesn't even make sense because she didn't have the Mangekyou nor the Six Paths as far as we know. Hagoromo stated her usage of the Byakugan and Sharingan was frightening, probably because she could use Infinite Tsukuyomi on individuals/crowds using the vision of the Byakugan.
That wasn't the point I was making. It's the fact that possessing both powers at once produces a Dojutsu which is hyped to be almost unstoppable by both Itachi and Hagoromo. Not only that, but the Tomoe Rinnegan isn't just about using the Sharingan's abilities while still keeping the Rinnegan active, it's the fact that he uses the Rinnegan to enhance his Sharingan abilities substantially.

Examples of that are:



and



Madara doesn't have that advantage, so even with a similar amount of Rikudou Chakra, he still falls short.

You also emphasized my point with Kaguya because if she didn't possess the Mangekyo, but Sasuke does, doesn't that mean he possesses a superior Dojutsu than Kaguya? Hagoromo also never mentioned the Byakugan, Hagoromo only referred to the Sharingan being a gruesome eye power. Since Sasuke possesses both the Rinnegan and the Sharingan in 1 eye much like Kaguya, he should fit that criteria.

2. Sasuke being able to match Madara after gaining the Six Paths chakra is a moot point. He was only able to do anything because of one technique (Amenotejikara). In strength, speed, and raw power, he loses. If you can't find some feat of him that is actually connected to having a greater chakra quality, then there's nothing for you to argue.
No, Sasuke managed to keep up with Juubidara in reactions and speed, so him being able to match Madara after he obtained the Juubi's full power means that his Rikudou Chakra was comparable to Juubidara's.

If Juubidara was so far ahead of Sasuke, then RSM Naruto's clones shouldn't have been able to stalemate Juubidara's Limbo (which possesses equal ability as the original) and Juubidara wouldn't have admitted that Sasuke was fast and wouldn't have been bisected in the process.

3. Sorry, but you can't use this a comparative. The angle at which Impure World Resurrection Madara slashed had the cut go up, so you can't exactly measure his power. Any Perfect Susano'o being significantly stronger due to chakra quality is still an invalid point until you can come up with proof in the above subject.
Why would I need proof that Perfect Susano'o would improve due to Chakra Quality when it's a manifestation of the user's chakra. If it depends on the user's chakra, then obviously the Volume of their Chakra and the Quality of their Chakra would determine how powerful their Susano'o is. This is just common sense and I don't need proof of that.

If this wasn't the case, then Sasuke's PS shouldn't have been significantly stronger to the point where his sliced through meteors that made the mountains that Madara's PS slashed look like ants in comparison.

4. As I recall, Madara's Wood Dragon actually caused Naruto's avatar to deactivate, and since Perfect Susano'o is pure chakra, it sounds like an enjoyable snack that may severely weaken the structure. Not to mention that you're comparing Impure World Resurrection Madara to a live Madara, who's wood usage should be easily on the level of Hashirama's besides perhaps the Sage Art: Wood Style: True Several Thousand Hands.
Full Kurama is a beast made up of purely chakra with a disadvantage to Mokuton yet it one-paneled that Wood Dragon. PS doesn't have that disadvantage and Rikudou Sasuke's PS >> Madara's PS and Madara's PS is at the very least physically on par with Full Kurama, so Rikudou Sasuke easily slices through that Wood Dragon.

If RT Madara's Mokuton was on the level of what you're suggesting, then Madara wouldn't have needed his Rinnegan in order to subdue them, so clearly, his Mokuton wasn't on the level to subdue all of the Bijuu, so his Mokuton shouldn't even be relevant in this fight at all. If Madara could use SM Mokujin, Rikudou Sasuke slices through that like butter regardless due to being significantly stronger than Madara's PS and even possessing Enton Kagutsuchi and Chidori which enhances his Susano'o substantially.

5. Easily controlled chakra for Madara, yes, but it still grants additional power, sensing, strength, speed, and endurance (including Hashirama's instant healing).
The only notable thing that resulted from it was Sage Sensing, Endurance (arguably), and Hashirama's Regen, but there were no noticeable buffs that Madara received from it and Madara stating that it was so little means that it was hardly enough to augment his abilities.

6. I didn't deny. It's a possibility as he reacted to teleportation before. Either way, as I said, the only reason why Sasuke would win would be because of this technique.
He reacted to Minato's teleportation as it's easier to predict and Rikudou Sasuke >> SM Minato. DRSM Madara can't do so when Rikudou Sasuke with just his Flicker and Reflexes could slice Juubidara in half before even beginning to warp to the Kamui Dimension.
 
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Holy God

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He stated that he was using the Juubi's Power to approach his and her power meaning that he needed the Juubi to obtain the complete power of the Six Paths:



Therefore, having both Rinnegan doesn't mean that DRSM Madara had that power unless Nagato did as well which doesn't make sense.
I didn't say having the Rinnegan was having Hagoromo's power. I said he needed the other eye to reach his power because he already had the ten-tails.

Ten-Tails + Rinnegan = Hagoromo's Power


Sasuke received 1/2 of Hagoromo's Chakra which is heavily composed of very powerful Physical Energy, so he did improve physically. Why wouldn't that be the case if Sasuke managed to Shunshin and bisect Juubidara in half before he initiated the reaction to even warp away. Juubidara even admitted that Sasuke was fast.

Sasuke didn't use Ameno because Juubidara admitted that he was out of range, so what Sasuke most likely did was use Ameno to close the distance and flickered the rest of the distance to strike him.

That doesn't matter. Kakashi admitted that his abilities improved drastically due to Rikudou's Chakra, therefore, Rikudou Chakra enhances his abilities.

I know that Black Chidori is a result of Rikudou's Chakra. I'm confused on how "Sage Chakra" is any different than Rikudou's Chakra.
Madara clearly was letting Sasuke cut him. For one, he slowed down in order to teleport at a stand-still, and two, as you brought up, he had enough time to think a full sentence before being cut. He could have reacted if he wanted to.

The Six Paths chakra was so influential on Kakashi because he was nothing special in the first place. It allowed him to bypass the strain of Susano'o and even use Perfect Susano'o. Therefore, there is still no evidence of having Six Paths chakra affect a technique drastically.

Six Paths chakra contains sage chakra. It doesn't matter much anyways.

What's the reason then? If we don't take into account of the quality of their abilities, than EMS Sasuke > Indra by default.
I didn't account for quality because DRSM Madara and Six Paths Sasuke have similar chakra qualities.

1. EMS Madara's PS is at least the size of Full Kurama whereas EMS Sasuke's PS is only slightly greater than 50% Kurama at best.

2. By feats, EMS Madara's PS is physically stronger than EMS Sasuke's PS and I can go more in depth if need be.

3. By feats, EMS Madara's PS is much more durable than EMS Sasuke's PS and I can go more in depth if need be.

EMS Madara's PS by far, wasn't just on par with EMS Sasuke's.
As per my point, you're placing his strength on one technique. Not to mention there's no actual proof of Madara's Susano'o being larger than Sasuke's except for portrayal, nor is there for strength and durability because EMS Sasuke never had Perfect Susano'o. EMS Sasuke and EMS Madara are nearly equals.

That wasn't the point I was making. It's the fact that possessing both powers at once produces a Dojutsu which is hyped to be almost unstoppable by both Itachi and Hagoromo. Not only that, but the Tomoe Rinnegan isn't just about using the Sharingan's abilities while still keeping the Rinnegan active, it's the fact that he uses the Rinnegan to enhance his Sharingan abilities substantially.

Examples of that are:



and



Madara doesn't have that advantage, so even with a similar amount of Rikudou Chakra, he still falls short.

You also emphasized my point with Kaguya because if she didn't possess the Mangekyo, but Sasuke does, doesn't that mean he possesses a superior Dojutsu than Kaguya? Hagoromo also never mentioned the Byakugan, Hagoromo only referred to the Sharingan being a gruesome eye power. Since Sasuke possesses both the Rinnegan and the Sharingan in 1 eye much like Kaguya, he should fit that criteria.
Chakra for power comes from the brain. If it's producing both the Rinnegan's and Sharingan's then of course the Rinnegan chakra is going to have an effect on Perfect Susano'o and any other eye techniques. Not as if it matters of course since Madara can produce Perfect Susano'o while having his Rinnegan active and the benefits (blocking Infinite Tsukuyomi/superior gen-jutsu) won't matter in a fight between the two.

Depending on how you look at it, Sasuke may have a superior eye. The RinneSharingan provides the greatest sight prediction, Infinite Tsukuyomi, and two teleportation techniques. Sasuke's Rinnegan however allows the Six Paths techniques, Amaterasu (and Kagutsuchi) and Susano'o. The RinneSharingan is more versatile but Sasuke's Rinnegan is more "powerful" in terms of techniques.

No, Sasuke managed to keep up with Juubidara in reactions and speed, so him being able to match Madara aft[er he obtained the Juubi's full power means that his Rikudou Chakra was comparable to Juubidara's.

If Juubidara was so far ahead of Sasuke, then RSM Naruto's clones shouldn't have been able to stalemate Juubidara's Limbo (which possesses equal ability as the original) and Juubidara wouldn't have admitted that Sasuke was fast and wouldn't have been bisected in the process.
That's simply impossible. Sasuke has not once shown any relevant feats of reaction comparable to Madara. The only time something fast attempted to attack Sasuke was Madara going in a straight line for his eye. Not very impressive considering he didn't have to move and was staring at him the entire time. Then there's the fact that being as fast as a ten-tails host is simply impossible without the Six Paths Sage Mode. In combat Naruto and Madara both had that mode and therefore Naruto did well against Limbo in combat (though eventually lost as the clones were gone and Limbo shadows were not), but comparing Naruto and Sasuke is futile as Naruto is superior in strength, sensing, and raw speed (though their combat speed is similar).


Why would I need proof that Perfect Susano'o would improve due to Chakra Quality when it's a manifestation of the user's chakra. If it depends on the user's chakra, then obviously the Volume of their Chakra and the Quality of their Chakra would determine how powerful their Susano'o is. This is just common sense and I don't need proof of that.

If this wasn't the case, then Sasuke's PS shouldn't have been significantly stronger to the point where his sliced through meteors that made the mountains that Madara's PS slashed look like ants in comparison.
You are going to need proof of Perfect Susano'o being affected drastically by chakra quality. The Susano'o may be more powerful, but you can't gauge by how much so or if it'd even be significant. As I already said, Madara's Susano'o sliced upwards and therefore couldn't have slice too many mountains in succession and Sasuke was making direct contact with the meteors. Completely different scenarios.


Full Kurama is a beast made up of purely chakra with a disadvantage to Mokuton yet it one-paneled that Wood Dragon. PS doesn't have that disadvantage and Rikudou Sasuke's PS >> Madara's PS and Madara's PS is at the very least physically on par with Full Kurama, so Rikudou Sasuke easily slices through that Wood Dragon.

If RT Madara's Mokuton was on the level of what you're suggesting, then Madara wouldn't have needed his Rinnegan in order to subdue them, so clearly, his Mokuton wasn't on the level to subdue all of the Bijuu, so his Mokuton shouldn't even be relevant in this fight at all. If Madara could use SM Mokujin, Rikudou Sasuke slices through that like butter regardless due to being significantly stronger than Madara's PS and even possessing Enton Kagutsuchi and Chidori which enhances his Susano'o substantially.
Where might be this one-paneling of the Wood Dragon? Either way, I'm not trying to state that the Wood Dragon is a match for Perfect Susano'o, but if two Susano'o are fighting and another construct comes up it's going to produce trouble. As for leveling, Madara wasn't stated to need Limbo to beat the Tailed Beasts, but it produced the fastest results and we both know that unless Hashirama can make nine simultaneous Wood Dragons, he loses to them himself without Sage Mode.

The only notable thing that resulted from it was Sage Sensing, Endurance (arguably), and Hashirama's Regen, but there were no noticeable buffs that Madara received from it and Madara stating that it was so little means that it was hardly enough to augment his abilities.
Sage chakra is still sage chakra. We've already been shown how it can increase a techniques power, even Susano'o (Jugo helping Sasuke).

He reacted to Minato's teleportation as it's easier to predict and Rikudou Sasuke >> SM Minato. DRSM Madara can't do so when Rikudou Sasuke with just his Flicker and Reflexes could slice Juubidara in half before even beginning to warp to the Kamui Dimension.
I was talking about Tobirama, in which case Madara noticed the instant Tobirama appeared. Madara would probably notice Sasuke, but can't physically react. That's why he has eye techniques however, so he doesn't have to physically move in order to counter.
 

Uchihakil

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He stated that he was using the Juubi's Power to approach his and her power meaning that he needed the Juubi to obtain the complete power of the Six Paths:



Therefore, having both Rinnegan doesn't mean that DRSM Madara had that power unless Nagato did as well which doesn't make sense.




Sasuke received 1/2 of Hagoromo's Chakra which is heavily composed of very powerful Physical Energy, so he did improve physically. Why wouldn't that be the case if Sasuke managed to Shunshin and bisect Juubidara in half before he initiated the reaction to even warp away. Juubidara even admitted that Sasuke was fast.

Sasuke didn't use Ameno because Juubidara admitted that he was out of range, so what Sasuke most likely did was use Ameno to close the distance and flickered the rest of the distance to strike him.

That doesn't matter. Kakashi admitted that his abilities improved drastically due to Rikudou's Chakra, therefore, Rikudou Chakra enhances his abilities.

I know that Black Chidori is a result of Rikudou's Chakra. I'm confused on how "Sage Chakra" is any different than Rikudou's Chakra.




What's the reason then? If we don't take into account of the quality of their abilities, than EMS Sasuke > Indra by default.



1. EMS Madara's PS is at least the size of Full Kurama whereas EMS Sasuke's PS is only slightly greater than 50% Kurama at best.

2. By feats, EMS Madara's PS is physically stronger than EMS Sasuke's PS and I can go more in depth if need be.

3. By feats, EMS Madara's PS is much more durable than EMS Sasuke's PS and I can go more in depth if need be.

EMS Madara's PS by far, wasn't just on par with EMS Sasuke's.



That wasn't the point I was making. It's the fact that possessing both powers at once produces a Dojutsu which is hyped to be almost unstoppable by both Itachi and Hagoromo. Not only that, but the Tomoe Rinnegan isn't just about using the Sharingan's abilities while still keeping the Rinnegan active, it's the fact that he uses the Rinnegan to enhance his Sharingan abilities substantially.

Examples of that are:



and



Madara doesn't have that advantage, so even with a similar amount of Rikudou Chakra, he still falls short.

You also emphasized my point with Kaguya because if she didn't possess the Mangekyo, but Sasuke does, doesn't that mean he possesses a superior Dojutsu than Kaguya? Hagoromo also never mentioned the Byakugan, Hagoromo only referred to the Sharingan being a gruesome eye power. Since Sasuke possesses both the Rinnegan and the Sharingan in 1 eye much like Kaguya, he should fit that criteria.



No, Sasuke managed to keep up with Juubidara in reactions and speed, so him being able to match Madara after he obtained the Juubi's full power means that his Rikudou Chakra was comparable to Juubidara's.

If Juubidara was so far ahead of Sasuke, then RSM Naruto's clones shouldn't have been able to stalemate Juubidara's Limbo (which possesses equal ability as the original) and Juubidara wouldn't have admitted that Sasuke was fast and wouldn't have been bisected in the process.



Why would I need proof that Perfect Susano'o would improve due to Chakra Quality when it's a manifestation of the user's chakra. If it depends on the user's chakra, then obviously the Volume of their Chakra and the Quality of their Chakra would determine how powerful their Susano'o is. This is just common sense and I don't need proof of that.

If this wasn't the case, then Sasuke's PS shouldn't have been significantly stronger to the point where his sliced through meteors that made the mountains that Madara's PS slashed look like ants in comparison.



Full Kurama is a beast made up of purely chakra with a disadvantage to Mokuton yet it one-paneled that Wood Dragon. PS doesn't have that disadvantage and Rikudou Sasuke's PS >> Madara's PS and Madara's PS is at the very least physically on par with Full Kurama, so Rikudou Sasuke easily slices through that Wood Dragon.

If RT Madara's Mokuton was on the level of what you're suggesting, then Madara wouldn't have needed his Rinnegan in order to subdue them, so clearly, his Mokuton wasn't on the level to subdue all of the Bijuu, so his Mokuton shouldn't even be relevant in this fight at all. If Madara could use SM Mokujin, Rikudou Sasuke slices through that like butter regardless due to being significantly stronger than Madara's PS and even possessing Enton Kagutsuchi and Chidori which enhances his Susano'o substantially.



The only notable thing that resulted from it was Sage Sensing, Endurance (arguably), and Hashirama's Regen, but there were no noticeable buffs that Madara received from it and Madara stating that it was so little means that it was hardly enough to augment his abilities.



He reacted to Minato's teleportation as it's easier to predict and Rikudou Sasuke >> SM Minato. DRSM Madara can't do so when Rikudou Sasuke with just his Flicker and Reflexes could slice Juubidara in half before even beginning to warp to the Kamui Dimension.
Zetsu summoned a mini SS without rikudou buff or senjutsu, madara has rikudou buff + senjutsu + his own reserves (madara as an edo already has shown us he has hashi level moukhtun pre being alive and pre senjutsu), kakashi with rikudou buff with MS used a full body susano, so madara with all that will be able to make an SS even (slightly) bigger than hashi's, madara saying is that it (@ the senjutsu he sucked from hashi) meant, is that all that is of senjutsu chakra (he thought there it would be harder to handle) but apparently it was easy for madara to handle

And apparently madara is the only one in naruto with Perfect susano, the rest only have full body susano, so madara's PS shits on all them other susano's

Sasuke cutting madara does'nt imply jack, madara was after his other eye (coz he knows he will be in trouble without it) if a weaker form of madara can react to guy (who is faster than sasuke) and also react to naruto, that just shows you madara did'nt give a damn bout being cut in half, he knows its worth shit
 

Uchihakil

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His senjutsu chakra is less than hashirama's .no idea how big is rikudo chakra and rinnegan chakra .so no he cant necessarily use SS of the same size of hashirama's .
Limbo wasnt shown to use the original's techs otherwise there is no point in starting this argument .you yourself didnt consider them to be capable of using techs till I proved how they would be useless .
Not sure if madara can summon this bird but it gets wrecked by shock wave or sniped by kamui .
Guess what? We never saw madara's MS techs that does'nt mean he does'nt have'em, and we are told he has equal 'abilities' with the original in the db, so yes he can, I just did'nt use it because there was no need to
 
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