[Discussion] Doflamingo vs Katakuri

[LBeezy]

not really doffy help was not comparable to law who is very strong doffy had fodder around him law was effective luffy never receive kill shot like gamma knife doffys friends are weak asf

Doesn't take anything away from the fact that it was never a true 1v1 or even a 2v1...

And if you want to be technical about it, it was a 3v2..

Doflamingo, Trebol, and Bellamy vs Luffy and Law

Oh wait, someone is going to bring up towns people helping Luffy at the end?.... Doflamingo had how many characters either fight Luffy during the tournament, or while Luffy was on the way to Doffy how many obstacles did he face?

People act like Law and Luffy went straight from landing on the shore to going up against Doflamingo... please.. that's not what happened.. it was never a fresh 100% Luffy and Law vs Doflamingo, Trebol and Bellamy..


Luffy and Law went 2 vs 3 and still came out on top and won..

And the bottom line is that when Luffy and Doflamingo went at each other with everything they had, Doflamingo got put to sleep.

 

[Dęvîa Puęrî]

Thing is, Doflamingo's Haki was never actually implied to be weaker than Cracker's. Both of them shrugged off Gatlings without a dent.

Nah luffy states that s the hardest haki he has felt to date so cracker does have stronger ardement haki then doffy.. But that is not the only factor in a fight. Cracker has not shown the ability to have means to attack ppl in the air nor is he very bright.. there's also kings haki (will and doffy hates to lose)
Honestly cracker is a lot like pica amazing df ability however they do not fight head on which is why when their physical body is touched they get wrecked rather quickly due to not being used to getting hit.

That's why to me vergo was on a diff lvl as compared to all of the other family members he like to fight hand to hand. Just straight savage (only one that compared sadly was gladius he should be been an executive) he prefers it and is a specialist at ardement haki. Honestly guys vergo is prime Example of what zoro and luffy could do in terms of with enough haki. I know ppl are going to roast me for this but I still think vergo may take it in terms of haki (including law doffy zoro pica chinjao and sai etc) the dude was put down by law.. Law a person who can bypass 99% of the defenses in one piece (sentamaru his ultimate defense would be nothing against him). His haki was hyped up out the by doffy. And he just brutally took apart smoker and law (granted he had laws heart and smokers objective was to get the heart). He tanked tf out of Sanji's kicks. Also something really weird to think about.. the biggest threat on punk hazard was vergo yet luffy nor zoro even encountered him.. only law did (granted back story but for them to not encounter him at all is little weird in my opinion). Lastly vergo' s body literally morphed with his haki something no other haki user has shown, to gain literal mass with your haki. Imagine luffy getting even bigger when he finds out how to harness that much haki. Seriously look at vergo before full body haki and then afterwards. Every encounter vergo had with anyone (each character had to take a moment to think and acknowledge his strength/How hard his body was) left them Wok

 

[HashiraMadara]

If Shichibukai isn't a level how was BB below Shichibukai when he fought Ace? Not to mention that's not accurate, when Teach fought Ace he had the YYnM and had already left a scar on a Yonkou, to say he was below sichibukai like Moriah, Croc, Hancock etc at that point holds no merit.

That was pure sarcasm made to ridicule his "shichibukai level" nonsense he keeps on sprouting. Heck he shits on Doffy far more than I purposely troll Sanji! He is beyond help I won't even quote his shiet!

 

[chopstickchakra]

You're right that it burns through calories and uses up more stamina, but those things don't rejuvenate his Haki.
So how much calories and stamina luffy expended during the whole arc? If you remove that whole part that he went through, he could either...
1. Hold G4 longer for him to take out dofy with one hit.
2. Evasiness at base for 10 minutes before Haki restoration.

His main problem was his stamina, when dofy was mocking him for being weakened, he was out of breathe that whole time.
Dofy was out of stamina too but his awakening didn't require him to move a muscle, so he was stuck to one form of string abilities which luffy took direct hits from at base before going Gear 4 a second time.

They must though since G4 relies so heavy on haki use if Luffy is able to reuse G4 then following the rules of the skill he'd be using haki too so the calories must also restore haki.

 

[chopstickchakra]

Doesn't take anything away from the fact that it was never a true 1v1 or even a 2v1...

And if you want to be technical about it, it was a 3v2..

Doflamingo, Trebol, and Bellamy vs Luffy and Law

Oh wait, someone is going to bring up towns people helping Luffy at the end?.... Doflamingo had how many characters either fight Luffy during the tournament, or while Luffy was on the way to Doffy how many obstacles did he face?

People act like Law and Luffy went straight from landing on the shore to going up against Doflamingo... please.. that's not what happened.. it was never a fresh 100% Luffy and Law vs Doflamingo, Trebol and Bellamy..


Luffy and Law went 2 vs 3 and still came out on top and won..

And the bottom line is that when Luffy and Doflamingo went at each other with everything they had, Doflamingo got put to sleep.

The help isn't comparable. Even if we accept that Luffy had "less" help, the help he received was more significant than the help Doffy received. Doffy got help from Bellamy and Trebol. Law's help to Luffy>Trebol's help to Doffy; this shouldn't even be a question, Law caused Doffy to use more energy than Trebol caused Luffy to use and Law did more damage than Trebol did. Bellamy's damage<Townspeople saving Luffy's life; Again let's really look at the two, Bellamy gave Luffy some damage and wasted his time if he wasn't there Luffy and Law would have had longer to double team but if the towns people weren't there Doffy would have got Luffy while he was recharging after G4.

Look it's really simple, take away Trebol or Bellamy and Luffy still wins, hell take away Trebol AND Bellamy's involvement Luffy still wins, BUT, take away Law OR the towns peoples help and Luffy dies.

 

[Punk Hazard]

Doesn't take anything away from the fact that it was never a true 1v1 or even a 2v1...

And if you want to be technical about it, it was a 3v2..

Doflamingo, Trebol, and Bellamy vs Luffy and Law

Please show us what impact Trebol had on that fight that Doflamingo would be unable to produce himself.

Oh wait, someone is going to bring up towns people helping Luffy at the end?.... Doflamingo had how many characters either fight Luffy during the tournament

Rebecca bought Luffy food after the tournament when Luffy announced he was too hungry to fight when Cavendish and Chinjao attacked him. As made canon at Enies Lobby and Luffy's explanation of Gear Fourth, consuming food restores his stamina and removes exhaustion. So whatever energy Luffy burned out at the tournament is irrelevant to his performance against Doflamingo because he restored that stamina.

or while Luffy was on the way to Doffy how many obstacles did he face?

What did Luffy encounter on the way to Doflamingo that compares to the damage Law did to Doflamingo? I'll wait.

People act like Law and Luffy went straight from landing on the shore to going up against Doflamingo... please.. that's not what happened.. it was never a fresh 100% Luffy and Law vs Doflamingo, Trebol and Bellamy..

Luffy was far closer to 100% than Doflamingo was. It is a fact that without the tournament fighters, Doflamingo would have killed Luffy, meaning Doflamingo was above Luffy. The only way Luffy could be as damaged as Doflamingo would be if Bellamy, someone Luffy one-shot using just Gear Second on just one hand and a non-stretched punch, is as powerful as Law's strongest attack, which simply is no where near to being true.

Fresh, 100% Doffy, Trebol and Bellamy vs Luffy and Law=Luffy and Law dying more times than not.

Nah luffy states that s the hardest haki he has felt to date so cracker does have stronger ardement haki then doffy..

Mistranslation.

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[Rikudou Tobi]

They must though since G4 relies so heavy on haki use if Luffy is able to reuse G4 then following the rules of the skill he'd be using haki too so the calories must also restore haki.

As far as we know Gear 4 is what needs calories because it requires more than just haki. Like Gear 2 and 3 they require stamina as well, so Luffy entering a new Gear will demand a lot more stamina from him until he masters Gear 4 completely, right?

As for Haki it is spiritual energy, the manga never said that it required any physical energy but we assume it does because everytime we see luffy use Gear 4 he becomes fatigued. The reason why it's not stamina is because we've seen luffy with no stamina left and unable to move use haki before. He used haki with gear 2 but not Gear 3 and 4 with it.
So you're right that Gear 4 requires more calories but it's not because of just haki, it's because muscle balloon requires more stamina out of you then Gear 3. Remember Luffy suffered the same issue with Giant gear mode against Moriah at thriller bark but this time he passed out, this was before he learned buso haki.

 

[Punk Hazard]

As far as we know Gear 4 is what needs calories because it requires more than just haki. Like Gear 2 and 3 they require stamina as well, so Luffy entering a new Gear will demand a lot more stamina from him until he masters Gear 4 completely, right?

As for Haki it is spiritual energy, the manga never said that it required any physical energy but we assume it does because everytime we see luffy use Gear 4 he becomes fatigued. The reason why it's not stamina is because we've seen luffy with no stamina left and unable to move use haki before. He used haki with gear 2 but not Gear 3 and 4 with it.
So you're right that Gear 4 requires more calories but it's not because of just haki, it's because muscle balloon requires more stamina out of you then Gear 3. Remember Luffy suffered the same issue with Giant gear mode against Moriah at thriller bark but this time he passed out, this was before he learned buso haki.

They must though since G4 relies so heavy on haki use if Luffy is able to reuse G4 then following the rules of the skill he'd be using haki too so the calories must also restore haki.

Chopstick is correct. Doflamingo explicitly confirms that there is a correlation between Haki and stamina when he attacks Luffy and says "I thought your Haki recovered, but you can barely stand."

Stamina refers to more than just physical energy.

stam·i·na
ˈstamənə/Submit
noun
the ability to sustain prolonged physical or mental effort.
"their secret is stamina rather than speed"
synonyms: endurance, staying power, tirelessness, fortitude, strength, energy, toughness, determination, tenacity, perseverance, grit

The bolded things are not only mental, but also synonyms with the words that Haki translates to. Stamina consists of both physical and mental energy, which is why psychological fatigue is considered just as anatomically real as physical fatigue.
'
The only thing Rikudou was even remotely right about is that the Gears burn up stamina. Haki does as well, which is why a Gear as advanced as Gear Fourth burns up so much stamina, since it's a Gear that relies on constant usage of Haki to maintain and why it exhausts Luffy so much and puts him to sleep.

 

[Ace of the fire fist]

anybody who actually read manga know doffy should of won that fight and eating help luffy against cracker I don't need explain basic thing to people I am big Luffy fan but I don't have bias

 

[Ace of the fire fist]

Lbeezy u are nice guy so I not want to cuss at you but brother why u compare tee ol and fodder belamy to real fighter like law?? Law stomp Bellamy and trebol same time in real fight

 

[Rikudou Tobi]

Oh yeah one more thing I wanted to add @chopstickchakra. Luffy said so himself that his haki is gone for 10 minutes but he can still run to escape during that mean time which makes sense since he fought with monsters in the Amazon island he had situations where Gear 4 didn't work so he had to find means to escape in order for him to survive. Running away consumes stamina of course. So with that knowledge we know that stamina≠Haki.

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The reason why luffy wasn't able to move around well on his own was because like I said ealier he was already weakened according to Dofy. He was huffing and puffing before Gear 4 all worn out.

 

[Punk Hazard]

Oh yeah one more thing I wanted to add @chopstickchakra. Luffy said so himself that his haki is gone for 10 minutes but he can still run to escape during that mean time which makes sense since he fought with monsters in the Amazon island he had situations where Gear 4 didn't work so he had to find means to escape in order for him to survive. Running away consumes stamina of course. So with that knowledge we know that stamina≠Haki.

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The reason why luffy wasn't able to move around well on his own was because like I said ealier he was already weakened according to Dofy. He was huffing and puffing before Gear 4 all worn out.

And yet he couldn't even stand up.

 

[Uzumaki Macho]

Katakuri was confirmed to be the strongest SC in this chapter (even though it was already obvious), so Katakuri should be stronger than Doffy since Cracker, the 3rd strongest SC, gave G4 Luffy even more trouble than Doffy did.

 

[chopstickchakra]

Katakuri was confirmed to be the strongest SC in this chapter (even though it was already obvious), so Katakuri should be stronger than Doffy since Cracker, the 3rd strongest SC, gave G4 Luffy even more trouble than Doffy did.

That's ABC logic. Just because Luffy had a harder time against Cracker than Doffy(arguable btw) doesn't automatically mean Cracker>Doffy. Doffy can make clones and use awakening while Luffy had to fight the biscuits on his own so Doffy may be able to fight Cracker better than Luffy did.

 

[Uzumaki Macho]

That's ABC logic. Just because Luffy had a harder time against Cracker than Doffy(arguable btw) doesn't automatically mean Cracker>Doffy. Doffy can make clones and use awakening while Luffy had to fight the biscuits on his own so Doffy may be able to fight Cracker better than Luffy did.

I don't think that Doffy clones would be much help against Cracker. Cracker soldiers are stronger and much more durable, and Cracker can produce dozens of soldiers at once while Doffy can make only one clone.

ABC logic does apply to Cracker vs Luffy and Doffy vs Luffy since Luffy didn't have a specific weakness against either of these fighters that would make the fight harder than it normally would have been for someone at their level, and neither of them had a weakness against Luffy.

 

[chopstickchakra]

I don't think that Doffy clones would be much help against Cracker. Cracker soldiers are stronger and much more durable, and Cracker can produce dozens of soldiers at once while Doffy can make only one clone.

ABC logic does apply to Cracker vs Luffy and Doffy vs Luffy since Luffy didn't have a specific weakness against either of these fighters that would make the fight harder than it normally would have been for someone at their level, and neither of them had a weakness against Luffy.

ABC never applies in OP fights because as we've seen DF's can how they interact can impact a fight greatly. Doffy can fight in different ways than Luffy that could allow for an easier time dealing with the biscuits. Cracker can make as many biscuits as he wants Doffy can make that many strings to deal with them and Doffy took more damage to put him down than Cracker did.

 

[Punk Hazard]

Katakuri was confirmed to be the strongest SC in this chapter (even though it was already obvious), so Katakuri should be stronger than Doffy since Cracker, the 3rd strongest SC, gave G4 Luffy even more trouble than Doffy did.

Doflamingo while half dead didn't give as much trouble as a fully healthy Cracker? Wow, what a weakling.

 

[Uzumaki Macho]

Doflamingo while half dead didn't give as much trouble as a fully healthy Cracker? Wow, what a weakling.

Given that Doffy's organs didn't fall apart when Luffy knocked him out and his strings disappeared, GK wasn't as effective as you think it is. But I know that you will call this a plothole since it contradicts your interpretation of Doffy's and Law's statements.

Also, Luffy was also weakened by the time that he and Doffy fought:

Page 8 of chapter 783:

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Page 9 of 783:

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Heck, if we go by this translation, Luffy was also half dead by the time their fight started, according to Doffy. I'm not sure if this is what the Viz translation says, but I know that it says something along the lines of Luffy being weakened. Oda isn't the type of mangaka that carelessly adds in lines of dialogue and doesn't think about their placement, so I don't think that it was a coincidence that Oda had Luffy and Doffy comment on each other being weakened in the span of 2 consecutive panels. I know that you're gonna say that there's no way that Bellamy punching Luffy would do as much damage as GK (even though that's not as much as you think), but keep in mind that Luffy was basically a punching bag for Bellamy for at least ten minutes. Even if a single punch from Bellamy is only a little damage to Luffy, all of those punches will add up over time (and we already saw at the beginning of Bellamy vs Luffy that a punch from Bellamy can actually do some damage to Luffy).

EDIT: Image is fixed now.

 

[Rikudou Tobi]

Katakuri was confirmed to be the strongest SC in this chapter (even though it was already obvious), so Katakuri should be stronger than Doffy since Cracker, the 3rd strongest SC, gave G4 Luffy even more trouble than Doffy did.

Do you think smoothie is the second strongest or Cracker? Looking back at it now a Cracker vs Doflamingo fight could end up in a toss up because different styles makes match up. They're both generally at the same level.

 

[arv993]

Given that Doffy's organs didn't fall apart when Luffy knocked him out and his strings disappeared, GK wasn't as effective as you think it is. But I know that you will call this a plothole since it contradicts your interpretation of Doffy's and Law's statements.

Also, Luffy was also weakened by the time that he and Doffy fought:

Page 8 of chapter 783:

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Page 9 of 783:

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Heck, if we go by this translation, Luffy was also half dead by the time their fight started, according to Doffy. I'm not sure if this is what the Viz translation says, but I know that it says something along the lines of Luffy being weakened. Oda isn't the type of mangaka that carelessly adds in lines of dialogue and doesn't think about their placement, so I don't think that it was a coincidence that Oda had Luffy and Doffy comment on each other being weakened in the span of 2 consecutive panels. I know that you're gonna say that there's no way that Bellamy punching Luffy would do as much damage as GK (even though that's not as much as you think), but keep in mind that Luffy was basically a punching bag for Bellamy for at least ten minutes. Even if a single punch from Bellamy is only a little damage to Luffy, all of those punches will add up over time (and we already saw at the beginning of Bellamy vs Luffy that a punch from Bellamy can actually do some damage to Luffy).

EDIT: Image is fixed now.

I agree with you that luffy is damaged and everything but doffy is better suited to fight cracker not saying he would win but he is better suited than luffy. His awakening is effortless and can constantly engage cracker and won't have any stamina issues. It would be a high to extreme diff battle imo