Does the theme of forgiveness in Naruto go too far?

[DoubleKamui]

Nope. It isn't the theme itself. It is Naruto's naive and unrealistic character.

Obito saved Naruto's life, reunited the two main protagonists (him and Sasuke) and attempted to stop Madara and Kaguya's plans. He even tried to use Rinne Tensei on those who had die in the war. Yet, Obito is still labelled as a criminal by Kishi by making his character say just that: "It's an end worthy of the criminal that I am".

I'm not sure if you're aware of it but Naruto's ideologies has always been unrealistic and this has been reflected by Kishi plenty of times Lol

For example, Itachi had to remind Naruto that he does not have to do everything by himself. He has friends that can help him out along the journey. We know Naruto has a tendency to forgive those who had once cause suffering to himself or his comrades, as long as they attempt to redeem their actions. This is evident when he yelled at Tobi for mocking Nagato, the same character who destroyed Konoha and killed his two sensei and friends. It shouldn't be that much of a surprise for him to forgive Obito considering all the things he has done. If anything, you should be blaming Naruto's childish character, not Kishi.

But I agree, calling Obito "awesome" was a little bit too much.

 

[MAN OF SIN]

Naruto doesn't just let them go with their crimes. Even a killer can change and become good again, and what Naruto tries to do is change the bad person, because killing him will just be a lost.

So Naruto doesn't want them to be punished if they become good? Wow...that's pathetic.

Nope. It isn't the theme itself. It is Naruto's naive and unrealistic character.

Obito saved Naruto's life, reunited the two main protagonists (him and Sasuke) and attempted to stop Madara and Kaguya's plans. He even tried to use Rinne Tensei on those who had die in the war. Yet, Obito is still labelled as a criminal by Kishi by making his character say just that: "It's an end worthy of the criminal that I am".

I'm not sure if you're aware of it but Naruto's ideologies has always been unrealistic and this has been reflected by Kishi plenty of times Lol

For example, Itachi had to remind Naruto that he does not have to do everything by himself. He has friends that can help him out along the journey. We know Naruto has a tendency to forgive those who had once cause suffering to himself or his comrades, as long as they attempt to redeem their actions. This is evident when he yelled at Tobi for mocking Nagato, the same character who destroyed Konoha and killed his two sensei and friends. It shouldn't be that much of a surprise for him to forgive Obito considering all the things he has done. If anything, you should be blaming Naruto's childish character, not Kishi.

But I agree, calling Obito "awesome" was a little bit too much.

That wasn't a sign of him forgiving Nagato. He was saying that he at least wanted peace unlike Obito and that was true. Naruto couldn't say the same to Black Zetsu about Obito.

 

[Chatte]

It's not that the theme is applied too much... I mean, I get it, it does send a good message in a way but what Kishi just doesn't want to deal with, that would make the theme even more believable and less forced, it would give the reader a better dunno... acceptance of this moral Kishi is trying to push with the forgiveness and redemption is consequences of ones acts, the accountability.
Most of these villains haven't suffered the consequences of their act and Kishi seems to be writing somewhere around that, like he doesn't exactly even know himself how to write this process of suffering the consequences of one's actions/being held accountable for that.
I mean, yes, this manga main philosophy is idealism, the message that it tries to convey is built around this idealism but unfortunately, Kishi forgets that we don't live in a idealistic world and neither the world he's writing is idealistic because it shows the flaws, but probably being driven by his wish to keep sending this idealistic message of if we understand each other/each other's pain, we can come and work together and live in a happy world, he buries himself in morals when it comes to the accountability part.
So then, he pushes even more forward with the two concepts...forgiveness and redemption. And while I do understand from where he's coming, it is a nice idea, the matter is that he is hurting his own manga by not addressing the matter of the suffered consequences after one's act and/or accountability of one's act thus, making the whole forgiveness/redemption matter rather unbelievable and shaky...

Anyway, great thread! Is a refreshment around here...

 

[lucario14]

There is no problem with what naruto did with obito. Why? It's because he died. Kishi conveniently kills off characters that, he feels, have gone too far into the darkness eg. Zabuza, nagato other akatsuki, obito maybe madara etc as a fail-safe so it doesn't matter if naruto forgave them or not.

If the character remained alive eg. if oro or madara remained alive and were forgiven and are allowed to integrate into the community, then we will have a massive problem. Just because naruto forgives someone, doesn't mean everybody else will. The main character's forgiveness doesn't represent everyone else's thoughts and wishes.

 

[Tenshi Hikari]

I think Kishi is really optimistic..

 

[Chatte]

There is no problem with what naruto did with obito. Why? It's because he died. Kishi conveniently kills off characters that, he feels, have gone too far into the darkness eg. Zabuza, nagato other akatsuki, obito maybe madara etc as a fail-safe so it doesn't matter if naruto forgave them or not.

If the character remained alive eg. if oro or madara remained alive and were forgiven and are allowed to integrate into the community, then we will have a massive problem. Just because naruto forgives someone, doesn't mean everybody else will. The main character's forgiveness doesn't represent everyone else's thoughts and wishes.

And that's exactly what I mean. Kishi runs away from writing accountability of these type of characters. They conveniently die as if he considers death the get-away key and as if he's saying well, he's dying anyway, he paid his price with death. But that doesn't exactly make it right because good people die too...What Kishi needs to learn is that death = / = accountability. Doesn't excuse it.
But like I said, if he would start to write it that way, i'd get too complicated in morals..

 

[paratise]

You see; it is about Naruto and how he gets everything right and perfect with his unfathomable emitting charisma.

Here is the difference, when someone like Hiruzen (who is not Naruto duh) allows forgiveness to take over his actions (Orochimaru thing) there would obviously be problems. I mean Orochimaru is a bad guy and 3rd made a mistake right?

But Naruto being the person who emmits Godliness and rainbows of joy can not be wrong people will just believe him and if he forgives a guy that guy is point blank harmless mkay? Gosh would not forgiveness be so easy if somehow everyone would be shitting rainbows and hopping on your genitals after you forgave them?

It goes this way for many aspects of his character. Apperantly "never giving up" only works for him but when Hinata and Lee did not gave up and worked hard all they got were chuunin ranks while Godruto is yoloblitzing bijuu.

Or wow how he easily changed Neji? Is Gai so bad of a guy that he did not bother giving a pep talk to the kid? They both lost their fathers at young age and tried to defy destiny and Gai succeed at that, would it be so hard for someone like him to say something such as "work hard and reach beyond the burdens you have been given, you worth and can achieve more than you think of!"? Nope but Naruto is the wisest/perfect guy to fix others up no others can do that somehow.

This is not just about themes this also about how Kishi writes Naruto Uzumaki in ways not only his character his unrealistic and garbage he also drags other characters down to make him somewhat of a worthy and praised individual. Those forgiven guys do not act realistic one bit neither people who surround Naruto himself.

 

[lucario14]

And that's exactly what I mean. Kishi runs away from writing accountability of these type of characters. They conveniently die as if he considers death the get-away key and as if he's saying well, he's dying anyway, he paid his price with death. But that doesn't exactly make it right because good people die too...What Kishi needs to learn is that death = / = accountability. Doesn't excuse it.
But like I said, if he would start to write it that way, i'd get too complicated in morals..

Yep. This is why I'm interested to see what will happen to sasuke. Will he die like the other villains, or live and accept responsibility for his actions or be completely forgiven and take the hokage seat like gaara.

 

[SageOfTheTenPaths]

Too far up my ass yes! In NV you can do anything and be forgiven in the end!