Does the theme of forgiveness in Naruto go too far?

[take it easy]

this looks like forgiveness for you?

Spoiler

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[Shadow Phantasm]

You said that it wasn't about holding a grudge. What about you makes you qualified to determine that another human is flawed? What is a person who isn't flawed? Is the opposite of flawed not perfect?

I consider a person to be flawed when they do things that no normal or sane person would ever do.

 

[Shadow Phantasm]

this looks like forgiveness for you?

Spoiler

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Kishi said Obito was forgiven by reuniting him with Rin.

 

[Troyg39]

Honestly I take more of an issue with this argument in general for several reasons. Not your specific thread I mean this ongoing debate about whether forgiveness is something that can be taken too far.

First and foremost the answer is subjective. Typically, when someone does something to you such as murder your loved one/ones or something of that extreme extent, even if their life is taken it still wouldn't be a fair trade to you typically, as it would honestly do little to diminish your suffering, and its far from making things equal. If someone killed my mom, I would want my mom back, not for them to be killed in return. Sure I might wish for their death in my time of pain and suffering, but my pain and suffering doesn't end when the killer dies. I still have to live without my mom. My mom's life is her own, and no other person's life is worth the same value in my eyes. So if we are speaking in terms of making things "right" again, killing the killer would be a wasted effort. Some people understand the pointlessness in this aspect and opt to forgive not because they think it's "alright", but because they rather let go of any muse for their continued suffering and focus on returning their life to a positive status rather than continue to feed off anger which will only lead them back to sadness by hating something/someone that will never make them feel better.

On the other hand, there are those that feel that it is justice for something bad to happen in return to those who do bad things. Nothing wrong with this either and it makes sense as well. The issue still comes in, however, of "when are we even?" Is living life in prison for murder enough punishment to equal someone losing a life forever? Is it equal to forcing others to be without their loved one for the rest of their lives? Not everyone would have the same answer, because the some, the fact that the killer is still able to "live" alone makes him the one who comes out on top. And even if you give him the death penalty, again are you saying his life was equal to the life of another if that other were your loved one? If he killed your child, should you kill his child too? Is that even fair? It's a never ending cycle. And the only way to end this cycle is to finally forgive and let go.

To sum it up, forgiveness can go too far depending on how much the person being asked believes in justice, in the same way justice can go too far if the person seeking it refuses to forgive. It all comes full circle.

Now for your question about if it goes too far in the Naruto series? Ofcorse not silly. The manga's image and theme are both about overcoming pain by understand one another's suffering and ultimately forgiving and moving on to do greater things for everyone. You know this. You have known this for awhile now. No should ever be surprised or ask if it goes too far in this series. That's what this series is all about

 

[Tennis Robot]

(cue that one sad Naruto piano tune. You know the one)

You feel bad when you make someone else feel bad, don't you? That's because you are able to understand the pain that you caused them, and through empathy, their pain becomes your pain. If people were taught to be more empathetic, they would torture themselves for their sins far more than any form of imprisonment/execution could.

I consider a person to be flawed when they do things that no normal or sane person would ever do.

Are you not flawed?

 

[Shadow Phantasm]

Honestly I take more of an issue with this argument in general for several reasons. Not your specific thread I mean this ongoing debate about whether forgiveness is something that can be taken too far.

First and foremost the answer is subjective. Typically, when someone does something to you such as murder your loved one/ones or something of that extreme extent, even if their life is taken it still wouldn't be a fair trade to you typically, as it would honestly do little to diminish your suffering, and its far from making things equal. If someone killed my mom, I would want my mom back, not for them to be killed in return. Sure I might wish for their death in my time of pain and suffering, but my pain and suffering doesn't end when the killer dies. I still have to live without my mom. My mom's life is her own, and no other person's life is worth the same value in my eyes. So if we are speaking in terms of making things "right" again, killing the killer would be a wasted effort. Some people understand the pointlessness in this aspect and opt to forgive not because they think it's "alright", but because they rather let go of any muse for their continued suffering and focus on returning their life to a positive status rather than continue to feed off anger which will only lead them back to sadness by hating something/someone that will never make them feel better.

On the other hand, there are those that feel that it is justice for something bad to happen in return to those who do bad things. Nothing wrong with this either and it makes sense as well. The issue still comes in, however, of "when are we even?" Is living life in prison for murder enough punishment to equal the suffering of losing a life forever? Is it equal to forcing others to be without their loved one for the rest of their lives? Not everyone would have the same answer, because the some, the fact that the killer is still able to "live" alone makes him the one who comes out on top. And even if you give him the death penalty, again are you saying his life was equal to the life of another if that other were your loved one? If he killed your child, should you kill his child too? Is that even fair? It's a never ending cycle. And the only way to end this cycle is to finally forgive and let go.

To sum it up, forgiveness can go too far depending on how much the person being asked believes in justice, in the same way justice can go too far if the person seeking it refuses to forgive. It all comes full circle.

Now for your question about if it goes too far in the Naruto series? Ofcorse not silly. The manga's image and theme are both about overcoming pain by understand one another's suffering and ultimately forgiving and moving on to do greater things for everyone. You know this. You have known this for awhile now. No should ever be surprised or ask if it goes too far in this series. That's what this series is all about

You have a good point,but I believe in karma and so if someone killed my mom I wouldn't shed a tear if something were to happen to them as well.There's consequences for every action you take and if the action is big enough then so are the consequences.

Forgiveness is a major theme in Naruto but the question is about if there's a limit.If a character killed everyone Naruto ever loved or knew then would that person be forgiven?

 

[kushinagirl]

yep, esp with obito!

 

[Shadow Phantasm]

(cue that one sad Naruto piano tune. You know the one)

You feel bad when you make someone else feel bad, don't you? That's because you are able to understand the pain that you caused them, and through empathy, their pain becomes your pain. If people were taught to be more empathetic, they would torture themselves for their sins far more than any form of imprisonment/execution could.




Are you not flawed?

@Bold/ No.

As for the first part,you are right.That's why death is a cheap way out for people who can't live with the things they've done.Karma dictates they live with the knowledge that people will always judge them for their crimes.

 

[Tennis Robot]

@Bold/ No.

As for the first part,you are right.That's why death is a cheap way out for people who can't live with the things they've done.Karma dictates they live with the knowledge that people will always judge them for their crimes.

Are they more likely to repent if you shun them more?

 

[Gyakusetsu]

(cue that one sad Naruto piano tune. You know the one)

You feel bad when you make someone else feel bad, don't you? That's because you are able to understand the pain that you caused them, and through empathy, their pain becomes your pain. If people were taught to be more empathetic, they would torture themselves for their sins far more than any form of imprisonment/execution could.

What if I had so much empathy and understanding that I knew that these feelings of guilt must mean that I am a good person? Because if I was a bad person I wouldn't feel bad and that must mean that I am a good person and that made me feel good about myself again.

 

[Tennis Robot]

What if I had so much empathy and understanding that I knew that these feelings of guilt must mean that I am a good person? Because if I was a bad person I wouldn't feel bad and that must mean that I am a good person and that made me feel good about myself again.

Why do you think that that changes anything?

 

[Shadow Phantasm]

Are they more likely to repent if you shun them more?

Yes,many people try to make things up to the people they wronged because they themselves are wrecked with guilt.

 

[Tennis Robot]

Yes,many people try to make things up to the people they wronged because they themselves are wrecked with guilt.

But you said that these criminals are innately evil. How do you expect them to grasp the magnitude of their crimes if no one tries to help them?

 

[Dannie]

It's not necessarily the theme of the manga that goes too far. It's mainly just Naruto's idiotic mindset that goes too far. Not everyone will forgive their enemy that caused them pain their whole life. Even calling them "awesome" and praising them while at the same time overriding all the actions done before makes you look completely stupid and senseless.

Kakashi forgiving Obito is understandable. They were teammates, but Obito never killed Kakashi's parents.

Sasuke forgiving Itachi is understandable. There was only one way out and it was to stop a war from occurring. Itachi was also trying to protect Sasuke. It's not like he was Obito and did it on purpose. Itachi's actions were all for a legitimate reason.

Hinata forgiving Neji is understandable. Neji was lost in the darkness of his clan but now he is trying to help or was trying to help Hinata before he died. Hhe even told Naruto to protect her. Neji also didn't kill her parents or anyone close to her.


Naruto forgiving Nagato was not understandable, but if he didn't forgive him then his village mates would still be dead, but unlikw with Obito he didn't cry over him nor did he praise him after killing and destroying his village.

Naruto forgiving Obito reaches the peek of pure idiocy. Obito's actions and what he has done throughout his life doesn't even come close to any body else in the NV when it comes to Naruto's enemies. Most of the shit that he did was not even needed. He just did it for the fun of it.

 

[Troyg39]

You have a good point,but I believe in karma and so if someone killed my mom I wouldn't shed a tear if something were to happen to them as well.There's consequences for every action you take and if the action is big enough then so are the consequences.

Forgiveness is a major theme in Naruto but the question is about if there's a limit.If a character killed everyone Naruto ever loved or knew then would that person be forgiven?

And again, that is your subjective answer. No one said they expected you to shed a tear if something happened to someone who caused you suffering. My question was would it end your suffering? You believe in Karma, that's fine. karma says for every action theirs a reaction and what goes around comes around. But that doesn't mean that the reaction is equal to the original action to you. Your mom gets killed. The killer gets the death penalty. Does your suffering end the moment you find out the killer died? Do you feel like the murder never happened again once the killer dies? If so great, if not, then what specific action needs to happen in order for to feel like your mom never died? If you can't answer that then you have just proven my point.

See that's the issue with karma. Applied to the real world, it's a load of crap. If Karma says the equal punishment for your mother's life being taken is 10-15 years in prison, do you accept this? If you do, then logically speaking your suffering should end because in your mind karma always picks an equal reaction to the action. If not then you don't really believe in the power of karma at all. And like I said, justice and forgiveness go hand in hand. And only go too far when one or the other is neglected

And again to answer the bold, the question is no. It is understood that Naruto is supposed to forgive anything. Is it realistic? No ofcorse not. But in terms of following the manga it is spot on

 

[Tennis Robot]

It's not necessarily the theme of the manga that goes too far. It's mainly just Naruto's idiotic mindset that goes too far. Not everyone will forgive their enemy that caused them pain their whole life. Even calling them "awesome" and praising them while at the same time overriding all the actions done before makes you look completely stupid and senseless.

Kakashi forgiving Obito is understandable. They were teammates, but Obito never killed Kakashi's parents.

Sasuke forgiving Itachi is understandable. There was only one way out and it was to stop a war from occurring. Itachi was also trying to protect Sasuke. It's not like he was Obito and did it on purpose. Itachi's actions were all for a legitimate reason.

Hinata forgiving Neji is understandable. Neji was lost in the darkness of his clan but now he is trying to help or was trying to help Hinata before he died. Hhe even told Naruto to protect her. Neji also didn't kill her parents or anyone close to her.


Naruto forgiving Nagato was not understandable, but if he didn't forgive him then his village mates would still be dead, but unlikw with Obito he didn't cry over him nor did he praise him after killing and destroying his village.

Naruto forgiving Obito reaches the peek of pure idiocy. Obito's actions and what he has done throughout his life doesn't even come close to any body else in the NV when it comes to Naruto's enemies. Most of the shit that he did was not even needed. He just did it for the fun of it.

In the end, Obito was able to understand his crimes and atone for his sins. However, he was only able to do this because Naruto/Kakashi were helping him. If they had decided that Obito could not be forgiven, they would be dead right now.

 

[Darkakatsuki]

After thinking on this for a bit and reading a thread talking about the contrast in morals on another forum,I decided to make this thread to discuss if Naruto's theme of forgiveness and redemption gets applied too much.

Some characters in the series are guilty of various crimes ranging from kidnapping,terrorism,mass murder etc;.Certain ones were forgiven for their acts but is there a limit to how much you can forgive someone?

For example the friends and families of the people Obito and Madara had killed would certainly have wanted them to brought to justice.

But lately Kishi seems to be sending the message that if you do one act of good will compared to the dozens of crimes you committed, then you're absolved of all responsibility and can go to the afterlife with a clean slate.

Obito is a perfect example of why I believe the theme of forgiveness has been used way too much.He has attacked Konoha,caused the death of the main character's parents,made several character's lives miserable,and caused a world war that claimed the lives of thousands.

Yet because he was used despite knowing full well what he was doing Obito was forgiven.All those things he did?Like it never happened,and to top it off Naruto praised him as the greatest and ultimately he got everything he wanted in death.

Those people who died because of Obito apparently don't matter because he's forgiven now.

Orochimaru is yet another example of what would happen if the theme of forgiveness takes it's course.He caused the deaths of the Fourth Kazekage and Third Hokage,experimented on countless people and attacked Konoha.

Would any sane person forgive Orochimaru despite knowing the things he's done?

Madara looks like he's gonna be redeemed for everything in the future,this is despite him being behind everything Obito did.

Unlike the latter who was manipulated into thinking his actions were for peace Madara had everything laid out from the beginning.But once again it seems like just because BZ betrayed him Kishi is trying to set Madara up for yet another redemption story.


I could go on with other characters and their actions that caused untold death and pain but I made my point.Does the theme of forgiveness get applied too much?Is there a limit to how much a character can be redeemed?

The thing is that all five nations are guilty of just as much evil as these guys. The way they all treated their jinchuuriki was bad enough, but we have Konoha's treatment and destruction of the Uchiha clan too, we have Kumo's kidnapping of Kushina and Hinata, plus their attempts to steal the kyubi. We have I think Iwa and Kumo collaborating to destroy Uzumaki clan. We have Suna sacrificing that scorch release girl to Kiri for 'peace'. We have Iwa and Suna actually hiring Akatsuki for missions, and we have all five nations using enslaving the bijuu and using them for wars. In other words, nothing the Akatsuki did is any different from what the five nations have been doing throughout the years. They all tried to rule the world (wars were fought over territory), they all used the bijuu for war (just like Akatsuki), they all enslaved the bijuu and used them as weapons (just as Akatsuki did), and they all killed innocent people, many innocent people on missions and wars (Nagato's parents, Uchiha clan, etc). So the real question here is, do the five nations have a right to say anyone is unforgiveable?

 

[Shadow Phantasm]

The thing is that all five nations are guilty of just as much evil as these guys. The way they all treated their jinchuuriki was bad enough, but we have Konoha's treatment and destruction of the Uchiha clan too, we have Kumo's kidnapping of Kushina and Hinata, plus their attempts to steal the kyubi. We have I think Iwa and Kumo collaborating to destroy Uzumaki clan. We have Suna sacrificing that scorch release girl to Kiri for 'peace'. We have Iwa and Suna actually hiring Akatsuki for missions, and we have all five nations using enslaving the bijuu and using them for wars. In other words, nothing the Akatsuki did is any different from what the five nations have been doing throughout the years. They all tried to rule the world (wars were fought over territory), they all used the bijuu for war (just like Akatsuki), they all enslaved the bijuu and used them as weapons (just as Akatsuki did), and they all killed innocent people, many innocent people on missions and wars (Nagato's parents, Uchiha clan, etc). So the real question here is, do the five nations have a right to say anyone is unforgiveable?

No they don't,but most of the five nations crimes were because of endless conflict and backroom politicking.

 

[Gyakusetsu]

What if I had so much empathy and understanding that I knew that these feelings of guilt must mean that I am a good person? Because if I was a bad person I wouldn't feel bad and that must mean that I am a good person and that made me feel good about myself again.

Why do you think that that changes anything?

My point is that it's matter of perception (much like the folks reading this manga) and empathy is based on perception. Not everyone will have the same perception. The villains do what they do because they perceive it to be the right action to take. Assuming that others will share your same perception is an error. So your suggestion that having more empathy is the answer vs. punishment doesn't make sense. But, if I have a list of rules that the vast majority agrees to, that says if you do X we will perform Y to you, I really don't have to worry about those differences of perception.

Mods feel free to chime in here. Trash the rules, leave it to empathy?

 

[Dannie]

In the end, Obito was able to understand his crimes and atone for his sins. However, he was only able to do this because Naruto/Kakashi were helping him. If they had decided that Obito could not be forgiven, they would be dead right now.

Forgiveness and praise are two entirely different fcking subjects. Seems like people are still avoiding this.

Also, it was Naruto and Kakashi that decided to save Obito. Not everyone cares about him, so if every single dead person were to revive right now and look Obito directly into the eye, how many would actually forgive him? Of course Naruto would become selfish and make people forgive him.

Sakura thanked Obito for rescuing Naruto and saving him. She even said that all the things that he did are looked past because he saved Naruto, and that's all that matters. She was even hesitant at trusting him at first. She never once praised or acknowledged him.

Obito saved Naruto and Sasuke, but that doesn't give them any reason to start praising them all because of a title. You are being completely selfish and looking past everyone else to notice your own greediness of acknowledging someone all because he wanted to become Hokage.

Obito saved Sasuke plenty of times and you don't see him reding his cocktails. At least Sasuke had enough sense to look at the enemy that is trying to take over the world instead of crying like a little uncontrollable child.