Difference between Shunshin and combat speed

[Prince Charles]

I can't actually make out what's happened in those 2 scans.

Oh then my apologies,

Tenten attempts to pile deidara with shurikens but as you can see he evades them with pure speed and speeds around the

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and continues to run to his clay bird

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the way the speed marks are drawn clearly show it was pretty fast movements from deidara.

 

[illidanson]

With superior striking speed you can counter. Martial artists don't really dodge/evade in CQC, they match their opponent's fists with their own.

Sure maybe Martial Artists don't but it happens quite often in Naruto. Besides in Naruto it's not just Hand-to-Hand combat, there's also Ninjutsu and in that case Base Speed is obviously more important, since you can't stop a Fireball or a Water Wave by punching it (Most people can't anyway ). Then you need Base Speed to dodge, just as you'll need Base Speed to get within range to use your own Ninjutsu.

 

[Bogard]

You can, because they are throwing kunai and shruiken at each other, how fast do you think the shruiken took to travel through air? 2 mins? 3 mins? don't kid yourself. Can you quantify hyuugas palm hits?

Sharingan alone didn't make them react quicker than they normally can

Didn't lee already explain the limits of sharingan? Sharingan will help them see the shruiken, but if their body isn't fast enough to REACT, it is completely pointless....Sasuke and Itachi both stalemated in that aspect, and you can see the basic blurred sign for fast arm movement throught the scan

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They only have 2hands, which means in one round, they pick 1 or 2 shurikens max before throwing. They do that again again and again. This is how it works. I'm not saying the action wasn't fast. I'm saying how fast it was is something we can't quantify.

The prediction skill of the 2tomoe sharingan is nowhere near the 3tomoes. The 2tomoe only helps you to see an action that would happen a split of second before it occurs and because of this it gives the Sharingan user less time to act accordingly. The 3tomoe gives you the entire pattern of moves few seconds before they happen. It's why Sasuke couldn't follow Naruto's speed at the VOTE with a 2tomoe Sharingan, but with a 3, he easily countered him. Sharingan does increase your capability to react because you see movements even before they happen

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[Touken]

When in gods name did Itachi have a REASON to throw punches at light speed? If you're throwing a projectile at someone or something , you do it with all the force you can muster.. Keep to the topic, we're talking about how quickly they can strike and move their hands here...whether its a clenched fist, or not , it doesn't matter, 50 light punches in comparison to 50 slightly harder punches wouldn't differ that much or at all..

You have a manga scan of Itachi/Sasuke moving their hands at "blinding" speeds, retracting and extending their arms back at forth, using force to propel the shruiken

what exactly is the argument that they wouldn't be able to do it with punches

lmao @bold, so if you had the option to throw punches at light speeds you'd choose not to? How does that make sense? No you don't throw it with as much force you can muster because knives are already lethal, punches aren't. I'd definitely put more force in a punch than when throwing a knife. Moving hands =/= striking speeds. Ponder why Itachi's hand seal execution is much faster than when he throws punches, it's because to use hand seals you muster up no force whatsoever. Remember, I'm not focusing on Itachi in this thread, I could be wrong about him since I've not seen him in a taijutsu battle in a while, but my main point is that there's a difference between striking speed and Shunshin speed.

Oh then my apologies,

Tenten attempts to pile deidara with shurikens but as you can see he evades them with pure speed and speeds around the tree

and continues to run to his clay bird

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the way the speed marks are drawn clearly show it was pretty fast movements from deidara.

It doesn't seem as though Gai's team were applying much pressure on Deidara, they could see he was beat due to not being able to use any of his arms (shown through the kunai in his mouth) and they also kept their distance because of Kakashi's warning. Although, that scan does show Deidara's not slow but he's still not as fast as Sasuke.

 

[Owarij]

lmao @bold, so if you had the option to throw punches at light speeds you'd choose not to? How does that make sense? No you don't throw it with as much force you can muster because knives are already lethal, punches aren't. I'd definitely put more force in a punch than when throwing a knife. Moving hands =/= striking speeds. Ponder why Itachi's hand seal execution is much faster than when he throws punches, it's because to use hand seals you muster up no force whatsoever. Remember, I'm not focusing on Itachi in this thread, I could be wrong about him since I've not seen him in a taijutsu battle in a while, but my main point is that there's a difference between striking speed and Shunshin speed.

I never said that, I'm saying itachi never had the reason to or was never in a situation that he'd have to
Must I go over his fights? He defeated kakashi with genjutsu, Orochimaru with genjutsu, Sasuke was a planned fight, which I already showed you an example of his quick movements... Against naruto and be he was under the direct control of Kabuto who didn't know or wasn't performing to the full extent as they would fight.. and what point would it be to do it against Kabuto? He already knew physical attacks wouldn't work on him, he knew that from the beginning

Now lets go over this again, how many taijutsu fights have we really seen from him? and are you arguing that just because something isn't shown it doesn't exist?
Its not just about itachi, but that's the main example, the same situation can be applied to Minato or anyone else who's named was called...

I am very aware there's a difference between striking speed and shunshin speed.. My argument was that a ninja that has trained speed would most likely have a decently fast striking speed as well due to the correlative nature of the two things

They only have 2hands, which means in one round, they pick 1 or 2 shurikens max before throwing. They do that again again and again. This is how it works. I'm not saying the action wasn't fast. I'm saying how fast it was is something we can't quantify.

The prediction skill of the 2tomoe sharingan is nowhere near the 3tomoes. The 2tomoe only helps you to see an action that would happen a split of second before it occurs and because of this it gives the Sharingan user less time to act accordingly. The 3tomoe gives you the entire pattern of moves few seconds before they happen. It's why Sasuke couldn't follow Naruto's speed at the VOTE with a 2tomoe Sharingan, but with a 3, he easily countered him. Sharingan does increase your capability to react because you see movements even before they happen

You're right, because of the nature of the sharingan, you have a CHANCE to counter, once you have adequate speed to dodge in the first place... Put 3 tomoe kid sasuke against someone like gai, and even if he can see his shunshin, he still can't react..

The point is that, both sasuke and itachi are moving so fast with their hands , they can deflect already inmotion kunai's from the opponent which would take no more than 2 seconds to reach over and land a blow given their distance...

 

[Touken]

I never said that, I'm saying itachi never had the reason to or was never in a situation that he'd have to
Must I go over his fights? He defeated kakashi with genjutsu, Orochimaru with genjutsu, Sasuke was a planned fight, which I already showed you an example of his quick movements... Against naruto and be he was under the direct control of Kabuto who didn't know or wasn't performing to the full extent as they would fight.. and what point would it be to do it against Kabuto? He already knew physical attacks wouldn't work on him, he knew that from the beginning

Now lets go over this again, how many taijutsu fight have we really seen from him? and are you arguing that just because something isn't shown it doesn't exist?
Its not just about itachi, but that's the main example, the same situation can be applied to Minato or anyone else who's named was called...

I am very aware there's a difference between striking speed and shunshin speed.. My argument was that a ninja that has trained speed would most likely have a decently fast striking speed as well due to the correlative nature of the two things

So the bold is your main argument? Because they haven't displayed such things, they could still possibly have those feats?

There is barely any correlation between someone who has fast Shunshin and one who has fast combat speed. Prime examples would be Naruto and Neji; Naruto having displayed notable Shunshin speeds but if he was to go up against Neji in a CQC battle, Neji would stomp but Neji's Shunshin speed isn't on par with Naruto's.

 

[Owarij]

So the bold is your main argument? Because they haven't displayed such things, they could still possibly have those feats?

There is barely any correlation between someone who has fast Shunshin and one who has fast combat speed. Prime examples would be Naruto and Neji; Naruto having displayed notable Shunshin speeds but if he was to go up against Neji in a CQC battle, Neji would stomp but Neji's Shunshin speed isn't on par with Naruto's.

Its not my main argument, it's a fallacy you're using that i'm pointing out

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You picked two of the most out of place ninjas to use in this argument... If you go back, you'll see I never said that it was a neccesary interrelationship.. rather that it was one that happened in most cases... Ofc naruto doesn't have the body and reflexes of someone who trained his entire life for that speed. It was practically gifted after one fight with the kyuubi...... And I already discussed the hyuuga thing previously

 

[Touken]

Its not my main argument, it's a fallacy you're using that i'm pointing out

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Oh good lord, you can't apply that to debate threads because we only use feats, and this is what the 'argument from ignorance' fallacy is:

It asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false (or vice versa).

It's obvious that this fallacy only applies to science, and definitely not Naruto, because we only go by feats.

You picked two of the most out of place ninjas to use in this argument... If you go back, you'll see I never said that it was a neccesary interrelationship.. rather that it was one that happened in most cases... Ofc naruto doesn't have the body and reflexes of someone who trained his entire life for that speed. It was practically gifted after one fight with the kyuubi...... And I already discussed the hyuuga thing previously

So it happens in most cases?

-Ay has a very fast Shunshin but his combat speed isn't notable, probably due to the fact his fighting style mainly includes a blitz and a punch.
-Kimimaro's Shunshin is barely outclassed by a clocked Naruto but yet due to his superior combat speed, he was able to defeat all of his clones.

In very few cases, yeah, shinobi with fast Shunshin can match that with combat speed, for example, the Tobirama feat I've used to death in his debates, where he plastered Juubito with tags and a Hiraishin seal.

 

[Owarij]

Oh good lord, you can't apply that to debate threads because we only use feats, and this is what the 'argument from ignorance' fallacy is:

It's obvious that this fallacy only applies to science, and definitely not Naruto, because we only go by feats.


So it happens in most cases?

-Ay has a very fast Shunshin but his combat speed isn't notable, probably due to the fact his fighting style mainly includes a blitz and a punch.
-Kimimaro's Shunshin is barely outclassed by a clocked Naruto but yet due to his superior combat speed, he was able to defeat all of his clones.

In very few cases, yeah, shinobi with fast Shunshin can match that with combat speed, for example, the Tobirama feat I've used to death in his debates, where he plastered Juubito with tags and a Hiraishin seal.

Ofc it counts, fallacies are for just arguments, not science only, we don't only use feats in arguing, deductive reasoning is an important aspect of debating that most people don't even realize


Very few cases? you've yet to list the masses of ninja who's reflexes don't match up with their movement.. You keep listing A and naruto when I already explained their situations... You still have Sasuke, tobirama, Itachi, Madara, Bee?

How exactly are they the minor here?

 

[Touken]

Ofc it counts, fallacies are for just arguments, not science only, we don't only use feats in arguing, deductive reasoning is an important aspect of debating that most people don't even realize

Deductive reasoning has nothing to do with this fallacy. And how do we use deductive reasoning to find out something that doesn't exist? Which was your point:

Now lets go over this again, how many taijutsu fight have we really seen from him? and are you arguing that just because something isn't shown it doesn't exist?

Very few cases? you've yet to list the masses of ninja who's reflexes don't match up with their movement.. You keep listing A and naruto when I already explained their situations... You still have Sasuke, tobirama, Itachi, Madara, Bee?

How exactly are they the minor here?

'reflexes don't match up with their movement'? That's not what the thread's about.

-

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but yet couldn't keep up with

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-Itachi's Shunshin is much better than Kabuto's but yet

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Care to show me evidence that Shunshin speed correlates with combat speed?

 

[Black Wolf]

Shunshin is viable for people with the reaction feats to make it applicable. People like Madara, Sasuke, Itachi, Kakashi, Obito . . . Sharingan users in general have the reflex and perception abilities to utilize it in battle without compromising themselves. Raikage is also up there too.

For other characters, not so much. They might be able to Shunshin around faster, but their eyes and body won't be able to keep up, and you'll end up with a scenario like Kid Kakashi when he first used Chidori.

 

[phantomlord22]

Just wanna clear up what Shunshin is - a high speed movement technique which is mainly used to cover distances.

In a battle, Shunshin isn't much of a factor if two shinobi have comparable speed/reaction feats. Shunshin only really becomes factor when you're facing techniques which can completely devastate an area i.e. PS slash or Gojou Kibakufudu, there's more but these are the only ones which come to mind. Shunshin also becomes a factor when one shinobi's Shunshin far outclasses another person's Shunshin i.e. Ay and Mei.

Anyway, striking speed is more of a factor in CQC rather than Shunshin and so if a person has faster striking speed, it plays more of an advantage than faster Shunhin. For example, if Gai and Ay

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, Gai would have the advantage due to having superior striking speed, especially in Gates (Morning Peacock).

This scan pretty much covers it up:

Spoiler

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-Diana tells Clark she's faster than him in the previous page.
-The main focus here is what Bruce says, 'Who's faster, Usain Bolt or Bruce Lee?'

thanks for this awesome thread man

I agree

 

[AlphaScythian]

This is stupid. Shunshin is absolutely necessary to strike down enemy bypassing reaction time and to dodge an attack bypassing combat speed. Ay is all about it.

 

[Touken]

This is stupid. Shunshin is absolutely necessary to strike down enemy bypassing reaction time and to dodge an attack bypassing combat speed. Ay is all about it.

In the OP I'm talking about where two shinobi have comparable speed/reaction times, and to dodge you don't need Shunshin. In fact, in CQC, Shunshin is never used to dodge (except from KCM Naruto using Shunshin to evade Ay's punch). A few examples being:
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For example, Tobirama's shown

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, reacting to an opponent far quicker than V2 Ay. If Ay tried to blitz him, Tobirama could match him with his combat speed considering Ay's punches have no AoE which require Shunshin to evade. Combat speed can be used to counter Shunshin speed, but only when the person has shown to have considerable reaction times to go with their combat speed.

 

[AlphaScythian]

In the OP I'm talking about where two shinobi have comparable speed/reaction times, and to dodge you don't need Shunshin. In fact, in CQC, Shunshin is never used to dodge. For example, Tobirama's shown

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, reacting to an opponent far quicker than V2 Ay. If Ay tried to blitz him, Tobirama could match him with his combat speed considering Ay's punches have no AoE which require Shunshin to evade. Combat speed can be used to counter Shunshin speed, but only when the person has shown to have considerable reaction times to go with their combat speed.

Itachi used to dodge bee's samehada.
Ay, to dodge amaterasu.
Naruto to dodge Ay.
Sasuke to avoid explosions.
And many more.

SM naruto used it to take down asura.
Madara to own naruto. sai and hashi.
Jin obito owned senju bros
Naruto to hit kisame.
Ay to take down minato

etc...

Shunsin is used to defeat reaction time and to escape attack either of combat speed or ninjutsu. Its extremely vital in CQC.

 

[Touken]

Itachi used to dodge bee's samehada.
Ay, to dodge amaterasu.
Naruto to dodge Ay.
Sasuke to avoid explosions.
And many more.

These aren't exactly instances of CQC...

SM naruto used it to take down asura.
Madara to own naruto. sai and hashi.
Jin obito owned senju bros
Naruto to hit kisame.
Ay to take down minato

Did you read the OP?

Shunsin is used to defeat reaction time and to escape attack either of combat speed or ninjutsu. Its extremely vital in CQC.

Defeat reaction time?

I think you've misread my OP.

 

[KingHashirama]

Ah pretty much. There is a reason why Tsunade is hyped by Jiraiya to be the best in combat.. she most likely has more training in taijutsu and plus knows her body more, and can enhance her reflexes.



Lee/Guy/Minato/Ay/Tobirma = Raw Speed

Tsunade/Hashirama/Hiruzen/Jiraiya/and others = Reaction speed or combat speed.


There are reasons why Tobirama despite being faster than Hashirama, was below him in battle.. there is reason why Jiraiya and Orochimaru having higher stats in speed, are below Tsunade in combat (according to jiraiya).

As for the people trying to justify that they are the same.. don't even bother.. go look up real fighting also, they are very very different.

 

[Kakashi Hatakeo]

Awe man I really loved the justice league scan really put it into perspective and hell you can't disagree with batman or hot bod lol

 

[AlphaScythian]

These aren't exactly instances of CQC...
Did you read the OP?
Defeat reaction time?
I think you've misread my OP.

Yes those are, most of it.

Yep.

Yes, or leave no time for a counter which is consequence of little time of attack awareness caused by shunshin.

No lol. Neji has striking speed (64 palms) but cant do shit vs speedsters with strong shunshin.

 

[Touken]

Yes those are, most of it.

Yep.

Yes, or leave no time for a counter which is consequence of little time of attack awareness caused by shunshin.

No lol. Neji has striking speed (64 palms) but cant do shit vs speedsters with strong shunshin.

Because Neji's reaction time doesn't allow his combat speed to be effective enough against speedsters. Notice how in the OP I stated 'combat speed plays more of a factor in a battle between shinobi with comparable speed/reaction feats.'