Delving into the Imaginary (Genjutsu Training)

[Negative Knight]

*Waits for Lili*

 

[Lili-Chwan]

Well, first of all, I'll be using this thread:

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As I'll be using it as reference. I suggest you read it, it has lots of great info there.

So, let's begin shall we? What is genjutsu?

 

[Tommirao Uzamaki]

never played it

 

[Negative Knight]

Will do.

To me, Genjutsu is manipulating your opponent's perception of reality for whatever effect the user wishes to create. Genjutsu seeks to govern over your opponent's five main senses (Sight, Hearing, Smell, Touch and Taste), with Sight and Touch being the most commonly used. I like to think of it as the art of deception, a way of probing your foe into acting in certain ways and more importantly, avoiding certain actions. Genjutsu can also be used on the user's themselves to aid them in various ways.

Take a basic example:
Creating a genjutsu which causes your opponent to see a fireball coming down towards them would force a certain action e.g. using water/earth to defend. Lightning and Wind would be out of the question for obvious reasons.

Now a slighly more advanced example:
Manipulating the terrain to create a water source beneath the opponent, following up with using an Earth jutsu in reality e.g. Antilion or something similar. The water source would give the antilion the appearance of a whirlpool, preventing the opponent from using lightning to counter/realize the antilion. Forcing them to use other means of escape.

I hope you see the point i'm trying to get across. From stalking around, I've heard that there are three types of genjutsu users. Namely, deceivers, milita and torturers. Deceivers aim to trick the opponent, torturers aim to put the mind in stressful situations and milita are a combination of the two.

Due to the nature of genjutsu, the affected person can't rely on their senses to realize and ultimately break out of them. You need to look for logical inconsistencies in order to do this e.g. a sudden disappearance, objects spawning from nothingness. Understanding reality and the laws of logic are the key to realizing any type of illusion.

 

[Lili-Chwan]

Will do.

To me, Genjutsu is manipulating your opponent's perception of reality for whatever effect the user wishes to create. Genjutsu seeks to govern over your opponent's five main senses (Sight, Hearing, Smell, Touch and Taste), with Sight and Touch being the most commonly used. I like to think of it as the art of deception, a way of probing your foe into acting in certain ways and more importantly, avoiding certain actions. Genjutsu can also be used on the user's themselves to aid them in various ways.

Take a basic example:
Creating a genjutsu which causes your opponent to see a fireball coming down towards them would force a certain action e.g. using water/earth to defend. Lightning and Wind would be out of the question for obvious reasons.

Now a slighly more advanced example:
Manipulating the terrain to create a water source beneath the opponent, following up with using an Earth jutsu in reality e.g. Antilion or something similar. The water source would give the antilion the appearance of a whirlpool, preventing the opponent from using lightning to counter/realize the antilion. Forcing them to use other means of escape.

I hope you see the point i'm trying to get across. From stalking around, I've heard that there are three types of genjutsu users. Namely, deceivers, milita and torturers. Deceivers aim to trick the opponent, torturers aim to put the mind in stressful situations and milita are a combination of the two.

Due to the nature of genjutsu, the affected person can't rely on their senses to realize and ultimately break out of them. You need to look for logical inconsistencies in order to do this e.g. a sudden disappearance, objects spawning from nothingness. Understanding reality and the laws of logic are the key to realizing any type of illusion.

Well, before you delve into the types of genjutsu users, you need a more basic understanding of genjutsu, and before you do that, you need an advanced understanding of Reality and Chakra. So, firstly, we'll do reality. Since, as you said, a Genjutsu is a technique that manipulates your senses, you need to have a strong awareness of reality in order to understand when something is out of pace.

It's very crucial that whatever reasoning you do, you do it fast. Sometimes I see people go into long discourses about some complex realization that their in a genjutsu, when they could have just focused on a small detail and go on with it. Obviously, the easiest way to figure out you're in a genjutsu is about how bizarre a certain situation is, either because it's too fast or unrealistic, or because you can't pinpoint how it began, or even because it's working in a way it isn't supposed to. Something like the sky suddenly turning red, or things starting to move around or distort, usually means a genjutsu (Hallucinogenic structures may appear to be a genjutsu when they're actually not, so you need to figure out right away if you're fightning with a Biological Warfare type of ninja).

That is the second way of realizing you're in a genjutsu, when you know the ninja or know enough to understand that whatever the genjutsu is creating is beyond the capability of your opponent. For example, if you see a byakugan user create a tree. You have enough understanding of RP to know that these KG don't match. Beware of KG that do match (Mostly elemental KG). This is also the case of people create genjutsus of animals that they cannot summon. Except Pein, a ninja can only summon one animal type, so if someone you don't know summons an animal, and then creates a genjutsu of a different animal, you can pretty much assume you're in a genjutsu. Again, Pein did show the ability to summon various animals (And so did Nagato by himself), generally attributed to the Rinnegan, but I know for personal experience that there aren't others, until it happens, I'll teach differently. Of course, you need to keep doubting and experimenting, new combinations happen all the time.
Of course, if you do not know the ninja you're fighting, you have to assume some hidden skills, and learn what is real and what is not by trial and error. (And this is why it's crucial to be informed, and why Ninja Villages are so important and underappreciated)

Other than Bizarre Effects or Unattained Skills, you need to rely on the genjutsu's own limitation. Especially in lower ranks, a genjutsu will only alter a couple of basic senses. Sometimes, a genjutsu can be purely visual, so, sounds associated with what the illusion is creating won't be produced, and you can use that to your advantage. Other times, you can see some light changes or superposition of images (for example, you may see an illusionary animal or clone that doesn't bend grass when it walks). You can see a tree constricting you but not hear it grow. etc etc. When a genjutsu breaks the B rank mark, it starts to complexify, especially in the hands of a good genjutsu user, and start to describe a richer experience, but even masters make mistakes, and even powerful genjutsus have limitations, you just need to explore them.

But as you fight, you'll start to get experience in seeing genjutsus and what to expect of them. Good? (And we will try to go over breaking a few genjutsus when we get to the techniques)

 

[Negative Knight]

Well, before you delve into the types of genjutsu users, you need a more basic understanding of genjutsu, and before you do that, you need an advanced understanding of Reality and Chakra. So, firstly, we'll do reality. Since, as you said, a Genjutsu is a technique that manipulates your senses, you need to have a strong awareness of reality in order to understand when something is out of pace.

It's very crucial that whatever reasoning you do, you do it fast. Sometimes I see people go into long discourses about some complex realization that their in a genjutsu, when they could have just focused on a small detail and go on with it. Obviously, the easiest way to figure out you're in a genjutsu is about how bizarre a certain situation is, either because it's too fast or unrealistic, or because you can't pinpoint how it began, or even because it's working in a way it isn't supposed to. Something like the sky suddenly turning red, or things starting to move around or distort, usually means a genjutsu (Hallucinogenic structures may appear to be a genjutsu when they're actually not, so you need to figure out right away if you're fightning with a Biological Warfare type of ninja).

That is the second way of realizing you're in a genjutsu, when you know the ninja or know enough to understand that whatever the genjutsu is creating is beyond the capability of your opponent. For example, if you see a byakugan user create a tree. You have enough understanding of RP to know that these KG don't match. Beware of KG that do match (Mostly elemental KG). This is also the case of people create genjutsus of animals that they cannot summon. Except Pein, a ninja can only summon one animal type, so if someone you don't know summons an animal, and then creates a genjutsu of a different animal, you can pretty much assume you're in a genjutsu. Again, Pein did show the ability to summon various animals (And so did Nagato by himself), generally attributed to the Rinnegan, but I know for personal experience that there aren't others, until it happens, I'll teach differently. Of course, you need to keep doubting and experimenting, new combinations happen all the time.
Of course, if you do not know the ninja you're fighting, you have to assume some hidden skills, and learn what is real and what is not by trial and error. (And this is why it's crucial to be informed, and why Ninja Villages are so important and underappreciated)

Other than Bizarre Effects or Unattained Skills, you need to rely on the genjutsu's own limitation. Especially in lower ranks, a genjutsu will only alter a couple of basic senses. Sometimes, a genjutsu can be purely visual, so, sounds associated with what the illusion is creating won't be produced, and you can use that to your advantage. Other times, you can see some light changes or superposition of images (for example, you may see an illusionary animal or clone that doesn't bend grass when it walks). You can see a tree constricting you but not hear it grow. etc etc. When a genjutsu breaks the B rank mark, it starts to complexify, especially in the hands of a good genjutsu user, and start to describe a richer experience, but even masters make mistakes, and even powerful genjutsus have limitations, you just need to explore them.

But as you fight, you'll start to get experience in seeing genjutsus and what to expect of them. Good? (And we will try to go over breaking a few genjutsus when we get to the techniques)

What if the byakugan user happens to be a student of Plant release and does indeed have it within their capability of creating a tree/similar structure ? Does the existence of CEs break down or weaken this sort of reasoning for releasing a Genjutsu ?

Your 3rd paragrah was extremely enlightening, I never considered observing such subtleties like an illusonary clone not bending grass when it walks.

Other than that, I'm ready to move on.

 

[Lili-Chwan]

What if the byakugan user happens to be a student of Plant release and does indeed have it within their capability of creating a tree/similar structure ? Does the existence of CEs break down or weaken this sort of reasoning for releasing a Genjutsu ?

Your 3rd paragrah was extremely enlightening, I never considered observing such subtleties like an illusonary clone not bending grass when it walks.

Other than that, I'm ready to move on.

Well, even with similarities, elements have clear distinctions. You can tell apart a wood user from a plant user from a mushroom user. But it is as I said, knowledge is the most important part of breaking from a genjutsu. You need to know who you're dealing with, and sometimes make a few mistakes. I have spent some Kai releases on jutsus which I'd considered genjutsu but are not, due to how crazy they were described (It is especially useful when you want to mock someone), as well as not breaking out of genjutsu because I had no reason to.

 

[Negative Knight]

Well, even with similarities, elements have clear distinctions. You can tell apart a wood user from a plant user from a mushroom user. But it is as I said, knowledge is the most important part of breaking from a genjutsu. You need to know who you're dealing with, and sometimes make a few mistakes. I have spent some Kai releases on jutsus which I'd considered genjutsu but are not, due to how crazy they were described (It is especially useful when you want to mock someone), as well as not breaking out of genjutsu because I had no reason to.

Ah, that makes perfect sense. Though I would be reluctant to use a jutsu, we only get three a turn xD

Ready to move on

 

[Lili-Chwan]

Ah, that makes perfect sense. Though I would be reluctant to use a jutsu, we only get three a turn xD

Ready to move on

Well, that's always difficult to manage, because, while our character has no way to know some information, you as a person can read everything. Which is why, most of the time, when I fight, I make sure I write more or less than what I can, and lure my opponent's into traps like that.

 

[Negative Knight]

Well, that's always difficult to manage, because, while our character has no way to know some information, you as a person can read everything. Which is why, most of the time, when I fight, I make sure I write more or less than what I can, and lure my opponent's into traps like that.

Its sometimes difficult separating your own knowledge from your characters, since no-one wants to fall prey to someone else's jutsu. That's why for some genjutsu, I always look to see if they can be released without even realizing them, before trying to work out some intricate reasoning for how to deciphered the Genjutsu.

 

[Lili-Chwan]

Well then, now that we generally covered means of realizing you're in a genjutsu, we need to speak of how to release from it. So, what methods do you know?

 

[Negative Knight]

Well then, now that we generally covered means of realizing you're in a genjutsu, we need to speak of how to release from it. So, what methods do you know?

A Full body chakra surge
Kai
Pain Release

Those are the three I know of. The first two simply use a full body chakra surge to force out your opponent's foreign chakra out of your body.

The other is inflicting the right amount of pain to yourself in order to dispel a genjutsu. However, I'm not sure why it works.

Canon full body chakra surge jutsus include:
Nagashi
Hardening Technique
Earth Release Armour
Earth Spear
Lightning Strike Armour
Added Weight Jutsu (Super version included)
Light Weight Jutsu (Super version included)

For my Kakuzu bio, I prefer the pain release method since inflicting damage to myself isn't really a hindrance. However, sometimes its better to use the chakra surge method to kill two birds with one stone. All of the earth armors could be used to first break the gen and then a following attack which inevitably follows e.g. Gushing Water Imprisonment could be broken with extendable spikes made from the Hardening Technique.

 

[Lili-Chwan]

I wonder if Kakuzu can actually feel pain.

Anywho, Genjutsu is nothing more than disturbances to the chakra system, so all of the methods to disrupt it are, themselves, methods of disrupting your own chakra system, purging your opponent's chakra and allowing your chakra to return to normal. As you went into such depth about chakra surges, let's start with that. Some techniques, due to their mechanism, provoke a disruption on your chakra because all your chakra points are working at the same time, expelling chakra. These are usually quick and raw burst of chakra, elemental or not. Although I do not agree with some of the techniques you posted, everyone else seems to disagree with me, so I'm done fighting against it xD

What you need to have in mind, though, is the strength of a Chakra Burst Technique vs a Genjutsu. Elemental Chakra Bursts and Specialized Chakra Bursts (Like Hyuuga Techniques) allow you to disrupt a Genjutsu 1 rank above, while Basic Chakra Burst allow only 2 ranks above. So, an A rank Genjutsu can only be disrupted by an S ranked Elemental Burst and a Forbidden rank Basic Burst.

Questions?

 

[Negative Knight]

I wonder if Kakuzu can actually feel pain.

Anywho, Genjutsu is nothing more than disturbances to the chakra system, so all of the methods to disrupt it are, themselves, methods of disrupting your own chakra system, purging your opponent's chakra and allowing your chakra to return to normal. As you went into such depth about chakra surges, let's start with that. Some techniques, due to their mechanism, provoke a disruption on your chakra because all your chakra points are working at the same time, expelling chakra. These are usually quick and raw burst of chakra, elemental or not. Although I do not agree with some of the techniques you posted, everyone else seems to disagree with me, so I'm done fighting against it xD

What you need to have in mind, though, is the strength of a Chakra Burst Technique vs a Genjutsu. Elemental Chakra Bursts and Specialized Chakra Bursts (Like Hyuuga Techniques) allow you to disrupt a Genjutsu 1 rank above, while Basic Chakra Burst allow only 2 ranks above. So, an A rank Genjutsu can only be disrupted by an S ranked Elemental Burst and a Forbidden rank Basic Burst.

Questions?

One question, what would be an example of a basic chakra burst ?

 

[Lili-Chwan]

Well, I am of the opinion a Shadow Clone is a chakra burst, as it disrupts your chakra and halves it. Either way, I'm unsure.
Anything Hyuuga Based besides the Rotation techniques are non-specialized chakra bursts. Chakra Domes/Barriers are non specialized chakra bursts. Activating the sensory technique is another one. Any custom that also fits the requirement.

 

[Negative Knight]

Well, I am of the opinion a Shadow Clone is a chakra burst, as it disrupts your chakra and halves it. Either way, I'm unsure.
Anything Hyuuga Based besides the Rotation techniques are non-specialized chakra bursts. Chakra Domes/Barriers are non specialized chakra bursts. Activating the sensory technique is another one. Any custom that also fits the requirement.

Ah, that makes sense. Ready to move on

 

[Lili-Chwan]

Okay then, second, the Kai technique. The following restrictions are set to this technique:

"Kai, otherwise known as the Genjutsu release can be used freely, once per turn as long as the user has the rank and the requirements to release the technique. Kai cannot be used on MS and EMS Genjutsu."
As taken from:

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Now, please find the actual technique and paste it here. Then analyze it, please.

 

[Negative Knight]

( Genjutsu: Kai ) - Illusion Technique: Release
Rank: C-S
Type: Supplementary
Range: Short
Chakra Cost: 15-40
Damage Points: N/A
Description: The user does one hand seal to focus and then proceeds to disturb his chakra flow by forcefully stopping it momentarily and then "spiking" his spiritual energy, unbalancing his chakra. This dispels any genjutsu set upon the user except MS Eye Techniques, Paralysis-like Genjutsu and Demonic Illusion: Toad Confrontation Chant. The effectiveness of this technique is dependent upon the skill of the user. A Jounin rank ninja can dispel Genjutsu up to C-rank. An S-class ninja can dispel Genjutsu up to B-rank. A Sannin rank ninja can dispel Genjutsu up to A-rank. A Sage rank user can dispel Genjutsu up to S-Rank. The user may use this technique through physical contact on others to dispel them from Genjutsu. The technique can only be used once per turn and the user still needs to fully follow the logic as to why he figured out it was an illusion.

The technique itself is a basic chakra surge which can dispel up to S-Rank genjutsus if your rank permits it. As it requires a single handseal, any genjutsus which hinder your upper body maneuverability or cause paralysis which affects your arms can't be dispelled by this method. Genjutsu is commonly used to paralyze or prohibit certain movements e.g. handseals and so more often that not, this technique won't be a viable method of release. Personally, I don't use the jutsu that often since I like to think I would cope perfectly fine without it since there was once a limit on how many times this jutsu could be used per battle. It seems like its seen as the easy way out of genjutsus and the least creative method possible. However, sometimes its the best option to take as pain release is problematic for most bios and this technique can be used to free team mates from an illusion.

 

[Lili-Chwan]

Very much correct. I'd like to add, though, that you need to always stated what rank and amount of chakra you output with this technique. This technique counters others in a direct ratio. If you're caught in an A rank genjutsu, you need to spend an A rank Kai. Another thing, btw, this is not a method you can use against MS-cast genjutsu. So basically, even if it's a D rank, as long as it is cast by an active MS eye, it cannot be released by Kai.

Now, since this works by disrupting your chakra and then replenish it again, theoretical question: If you use Kai on top of water, do you sink, losing control of the Water Walking Technique? If so, why? If not, why?

 

[Negative Knight]

Very much correct. I'd like to add, though, that you need to always stated what rank and amount of chakra you output with this technique. This technique counters others in a direct ratio. If you're caught in an A rank genjutsu, you need to spend an A rank Kai. Another thing, btw, this is not a method you can use against MS-cast genjutsu. So basically, even if it's a D rank, as long as it is cast by an active MS eye, it cannot be released by Kai.

Now, since this works by disrupting your chakra and then replenish it again, theoretical question: If you use Kai on top of water, do you sink, losing control of the Water Walking Technique? If so, why? If not, why?

Personally, I don't think it would cause the affected person to fall into the water. Kai is basically a surge of chakra much like techniques such as Chidori Nagashi or Earth Spear. I don't see someone sinking into a water source using either of these techniques and so Kai shouldn't be any different. I heard standing on water becomes a passive action once you master Ninjutsu, and if so, why would it be any different to breathing or blinking ? I like to think of it as an involuntary response since we basically become programmed to stand on water without performing the technique or exerting ourselves.