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[Debate] Itachi vs Orochimaru

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Forbidden Technique

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Itachi.... Still.... Solos

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TheAncientCenturion said:
Let's not waste time with formalities, and get straight into the crucial arguments.

I know how much you love this tune, I hope it softens the blow.
[video=youtube_share;jpkeAQG6kQw]http://youtu.be/jpkeAQG6kQw[/video]
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Sooo badass. Sadly, your post didn't do it justice. :dunno:

Let this one sync in and marinate. I'm on a whole other level rn.


#Levels​



TheAncientCenturion said:
Genjutsu GG​

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​

For some reason, people believe that Orochimaru will still slip into a genjutsu and is unable to do a single thing about it. The encounter with Itachi will not repeat itself; Orochimaru is now full aware of the level of genjutsu Itachi has. Any genjutsu bar Tsukuyomi is not defeating or doing much of anything to Orochimaru.

There's the classic way to get around genjutsu, avoid contact with the eyes. Look away at the start and then set up several shadow clones. All of that. But the added bonus of containing a Zetsu body and thus the ability to sense allows for Orochimaru to follow Karin's own rules to identify when you're in a genjutsu [
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]. Once able to identify a genjutsu, arguably the hardest part of escaping Itachi's illusions, Orochimaru's able to escape it with the standard kai technique. Some do insist that Orochimaru's skills are mediocore in genjutsu, and he is unable to do a thing to escape from it. Despite the genjutsu being a paralyzation technique, Orochimaru was able to move his hands to just about together in a panel and was ready to break free from it [
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-
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]. In fact, we even see Sasuke replicate the same genjutsu and Orochimaru shrugged it off in his pursuit for his body [
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]. We're both aware of Itachi's vast skill in the field over Sasuke, so obviously Orochimaru won't be able to casually escape as he did against Sasuke's. But, with the ability to recognize the genjutsu and the fact he was able to almost break out of one meant to freeze movements. I think it's safe to say genjutsu itself is a low factor, the best chance Itachi has with it is to utilize it as a short term distraction instead of a frontal assault style.​
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@ bold, wowwww. Look away at the start? You'll regret that one, TAC.

Anyways, despite your efforts, genjutsu is still a huge factor in this match-up. While I'll admit that Orochimaru is definitely aware of Itachi's level of genjutsu; he still doesn't fully understand it's versatility – range and the non-ocular means of utilizing it. And I'll elaborate on that later.

Do you mind providing me with some of White Zetsu's sensory feats? Because if I recall correctly, the actual sensor is
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and not his white counterpart. In any case, you can be a sensor, but it doesn't grant you any special immunity to genjutsu or improve your skill in breaking it [
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]-[
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]. The argument can made that Orochimaru improved in resisting genjutsu since his first encounter with Itachi; but so did Deidara and we all know how that went.
– Trained his eye for years in order to see through Itachi's genjutsu
– Sasuke, a much less proficient genjutsu user then Itachi, still was capable of putting him within genjutsu

Kai release isn't even a sure shot counter.. [
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] considering it takes quite a bit of effort and time; allowing Itachi to capitalize on these crucial moments to prevent Orochimaru from escaping like he did the last time or simply finishing him off now that the intent is to kill. As far as Orochimaru shrugging off Sasuke's inferior genjutsu... It was within Orochimaru's own created dimension where he was supposed to be immune to all his oppisitions jutsu, so I take that feat with a grain of salt. It in no way strengthens the possibility of Orochimaru breaking out of Itachi's genjutsu.

So unless you're able to prove white zetsu is a sensor, your whole entire counter is pretty much foiled as Orochimaru will have no means of knowing whether he is in a genjutsu or not; assuming Itachi doesn't want to make it obvious. Even then, this feat of sensing the chakra flow isn't instant and takes some level of concentration even for arguably the best sensor in the manga. Again, for one of the fastest jutsu executers in the manga, a few seconds is all that is needed to end the fight.

TheAncientCenturion said:
Amaterasu GG​

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The super fast, very powerful black flames that can not be extinguished! Surely you're thinking this does Orochimaru in, right? Well, sorry if you are FT. The technique itself holds no immediate threat to Orochimaru. It may spread fast, but it's burning rate leaves much to be desired. Any pain that a normal victim would feel is instantly out of the question when you consider what Orochimaru's endured with a smile. Being split in half is one of them.

Orochimaru won't sense it coming, or at least won't have the feats to obstruct or avoid it. Not going to bother that, so you won't need to waste your precious time typing it down. But, what will happen is that Orochimaru will escape it. Oral rebirth is a sure fire counter to Amaterasu. You might think, "Amaterasu to the head prevents this!". But, we've seen Kabuto and Sasuke use the technique differently that gives more options of escape. Sasuke through his chest and Kabuto expand or split his mouth for his abnormal snake attachment to escape [
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-
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]. Withdrawing from the burning body, and leaving through the back or whatever part of his body isn't covered is how Orochimaru escapes the flames.

I don't mean to pull this cliche on you, but even with using this technique, Itachi makes himself open. It obviously does take some effort to use and while he focus' on Orochimaru, a shadow clone can sneak in a strike or even take the concentration away from the real thing.
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I'll grant you this. Orochimaru does indeed counter Amaterasu via Oral Rebirth. However, I do believe this technique serves a purpose in this fight. I'll wait on the opportunity to present itself to bring it up.

Itachi knows first hand Orochimaru can counter this jutsu, so it would be unlikely of him to utilize it wrecklessly – if he does at all.

TheAncientCenturion said:
Totsuka Blitz GG​

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As cannon as can be; Itachi defeats Orochimaru due to the legendary Kusanagi variant, the Totsuka blade. He is sealed forever and never to be heard from again. No more room for arguments. Totsuka GG, no re.

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Never mind.

The Totsuka, and by extension the Yata Mirror are Itachi's true trump cards. Something before that Orochimaru did not know he possessed. But, thanks to being inside both Kabuto and Sasuke, he knows of them very well. Along with Itachi's real potential, if anything. The idea that the Totsuka will pierce him a second time is something I take issue with. Itachi would first have to discover which Orochimaru is the real one - As shadow clones are still a thing.

And, Itachi has to pierce Orochimaru before he can escape utilizing the mayflower technique. I'm not going to say it's slow, this is entirely dependent on distance by the time a full Susano'o is brought out. But it's only rational to believe that once a skeleton emerges, Orochimaru is going to lay back. Having no real technique capable of breaking through it.

Assuming the distance between the original and Susano'o is great, or at least reasonable for the situation. Orochimaru's escaping, evading, using the mayflower before he is pierced. He knows exactly how quick it travels, how long it takes to get to A to B from his first encounter with it. He won't allow himself to be easily pierced.
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Not much to say here. I agree, piercing Orochimaru with the Totsuga having intel on the sword will be much more difficult a second time around. Is it an impossible task? Absolutely not. Openings can be made, and any slip up on Orochimaru's case, Itachi will capitalize on.
​

TheAncientCenturion said:
The Environment and Knowledge​

The environment may not play as large a role in this match up. But it's still worth some note of Orochimaru's inherent advantage here. The match up is put at Kakuzu versus Kakashi. A forest made up of monumental trees [
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]. With the mayflower, the attack prevention jutsu, and obsticales to shield himself with or use to plant surprise attacks from. It'll prove to give ol' Orochi some edge.

Knowledge, on the other hand, is very important. Thanks to his past experiences with Itachi, not to mention being inside both Kabuto and Sasuke. Orochimaru has been able to view to great opportunities of Itachi fighting. One in a sick form, while the other in a superior Edo State. He knows what to expect, Itachi's general techniques and a decent idea of the strain of what happens when they are used.​
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Goes both ways. As the much more proficient bunshin user (Not even Orochimaru's style of fighting) all these trees only makes it easier for Itachi to implement his undetectable bunshin feints. FT, what you mean by undetectable? Itachi can conceal the bunshin or even his very self from the opposition – remaining undetectable from Dōjutsu and elite level sensing; seeing as he fooled DSM Kabuto's sage enhanced sensing and an EMS user with his bunshin feints [
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]. The two didn't have a single clue Itachi switched himself with a bunshin. So whether Orochimaru is trully a sensory or not, it makes no difference. On the contrary, and in my best Draegod impression, Bunshin tactics formed against Itachi get shat on no diff! [
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]-[
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] granted Itachi's impeccable perception. Safe to say, Orochimaru's getting beat in a bunshin game. Badly.

Knowledge, again, goes both ways. Itachi has gained just as much intel on Orochimaru 2.0 aka Kabuto, as did Orochimaru on Itachi during that fight. Those little sleazeball snake oral rebirth tactics aren't going to work this time around.



Orochimaru's Victory​

Wait a minute there, TAC. Orochimaru will immediately look away and take his eyes off Itachi from match start? I realize this is to avoid being genjutsu sniped, but still. Bad move. Itachi is on a whole other level in terms of jutsu execution. By the time Orochimaru looks away and attempts to use Kage Bunshin No Jutsu, Itachi could of utilized his Karasu Bunshins (2 of them would be sufficient) and concealed his real self somewhere around the towering trees, given this location. The two Karasu Bunshins will immediately shunshin blitz; one on
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and the other in the
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– obtaining more or less the same speed as Sasuke's susano'o arrow

Adobo said:
...Faster then Sasuke's susano'o arrows.

Granted by his impeccable sensing capabilities; DSM Kabuto was able to effortlessly avoid the susano'o arrows as shown below in the spoiler:
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What Kabuto couldn't react fast enough to, in order to completely avoid, was Itachi's shunshin strike:

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Thus, Itachi speed blitzes the likes of any shinobi below DSM Kabuto's [top tier] reaction and perception level before they can barely move a muscle; as even Danzo [
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] and Kakashi [
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] were incapable of even weaving handseals to counter the susano'o arrow, which is inferior in speed to Itachi's shunshin. Greatest Of All Time.
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Kakashi and Danzo couldn't even physically react to something this fast, and neither will Orochimaru... especially given the fact that he's not even looking at Itachi. His Kage Bunshins are by any means disposed of easily [
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] and the real Orochimaru will be placed under genjutsu. Between engaging two Karasu Bunshins in CQC and the real Itachi watching for openings; stating Orochimaru will simply avoid any eye or body contact during this skirmish is a tad bit outlandish. Especially if we consider that Orochimaru has no idea that Itachi can place him under genjutsu by just looking at his finger or quite possibly other body parts. Kai release can be prevented, as shown by Itachi in the manga. So unless you can prove that Orichimaru can somehow break out of genjutsu within a few seconds, he gets sealed by Totsuka.

Alternatively or if genjutsu somehow fails, I don't see Orochimaru surviving and oral rebirthing from this [
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]-[
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]. As you can see, Itachi with an intent to kill is a bit OP. Stair him down you're getting placed in a genjutsu. Look away, your getting shunshin blitzed. Pick your poison.

I personally don't see how this fight drags out to the point where your below post becomes factored, but I will counter it for the sake of argument.

TheAncientCenturion said:

As I mentioned in the first section; Any genjutsu Itachi attempts will be met with resistance and countered accordingly. Nothing he can do bar Tsukuyomi will put down or stop Orochimaru for more then a few seconds. With clones, that's even less time. Now, factor in that Genjutsu is a popular starting technique for Itachi and we can see right from the beginning his style will be ineffective.

Both pain and physical damage are but minor annoyances to Orochimaru, who when tangling with the Kyuubi shrugged off more than what would gruesomely kill a man. Fighting in close ranged combat with one or more so clones is the next step for Orochimaru here. Though, unknowingly to Itachi, a trap will be placed once he is even within a set distance of Orochimaru. Zetsu spores will escape from his or the shadow clones and attach themselves onto Itachi. Much like what happened to the Kages and their body guards at the meeting. Despite none of them being in direct contact save the Raikage.

Factor in Orochimaru's fuuton to direct them accordingly, from multiple sides if the Shadow Clones opt to use them too. I don't see Itachi escaping from this attack. Specifically due to his lack of knowledge, and the fact that only two shinobi were able to find a way to discover them. Kabuto and Itachi. Despite Ao and Fu being sensors, neither noticed the spread of the Spores on their fellow Kage.

Tsukuyomi is avoided with basically ignoring direct eye contact. Amaterasu is ineffective and will leave Itachi open for any attacks from shadow clones or the original, if Itachi manages to miss the original. Katon is not a factor in this battle.

I'll rap it up, seeing how this is only an opener and I have been keeping you waiting for some time. Once Susano'o of any notable stages rises, Orochimaru is going to retreat. Gain distance, et cetera. For a broader perspective return to the Totsuka GG spoiler. But, with the addition of any surviving or creation of shadow clones, Orochimaru will send them in first.

With how many is needed to do the job; They can just attack from below with the Kusanagi blade or with the intent to make contact. There are three possible ways for Orochimaru to end the fight like this.

Activating the spores and having them drain Itachi of chakra at this point; While using his most draining technique, with additional battle injuries or fatigue being tacked on.

Even if he takes the spores out with minimal effort, he still has to deal with the shadow clones now. The next method of defeating Itachi is having the shadow clone(s) attack with just the Kusanagi. injure his leg, try to go for a more meaningful blow. It doesn't matter. Any damage inflicted will be good enough, as the true Orochimaru hides away and waits for the time to strike.

The third attack or way to defeat Itachi is to give him the cursed seal. Something that is sure to be far too great a nuisance with a Skeleton or more Susano'o up. With at best momentary paralyzation and worst being immobile for an extended period of time. Itachi's done for.

All three of these can or will happen in close proximity to each other if not at the same time. I very much doubt Itachi's ability to actively counter the spores and not be killed by the Kusanagi or marked by the curse. Or, avoid the Kusanagi and not be drained by the spores.

All in all; there is still One more trump card oro has. Supposing at some point, Susano'o isn't up. Orochimaru can always choose to attack him while in his true form. With each injury, poison will be leaked out and Itachi momentarily stunned. All Orochimaru has to do is then bite a chunk of his throat and he wins the battle. GG, no RE.

Though, I like this scenario much better.

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  • Spores

    I completely fail to see how this jutsu is a factor, assuming Orochimaru successfully plants it on Itachi and his bunshins. I mean, Kankuro effortlessly was able to pull 3 of them off with just his chakra strings [
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    ] as well as Akatsuchi's rock golem [
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    ]... So what is the issue here? A susano'o arm rids them off Itachi.

  • Kusanagi

    Alright, so this is a pain in the ass tactic, but I don't see it making contact with Itachi. For one, watching Orochimaru and his clones retreating underground should give away his intentions, granted by the sharingan [
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    ]. I mean, common sense, right? Fully expecting underground surprise attacks, it shouldn't be difficult for Itachi and his clones to avoid them considering much slower shinobi in terms of both reaction and movement were able to coupe with similar tactics without much difficulty at all [
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    ]-[
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    ]. In addition to the fact that Itachi already has reacted, avoided, and countered something like that effortlessly [
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    ]. If worse comes to worse, even while injured Itachi still has very sufficient evasion feats.

    -While bearing a leg injury, exhausted, and nearly blind; Itachi evades the Grand Fireball-Chidori combo [
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    -
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    ]

    -Under the same circumstances; evades Grand Dragon Fireball [
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    -
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    ]

    So as you can see, a stab wound from Kusanagi doesn't inevitably end the match for Itachi. Furthermore, explosive bunshin will come in handy here. Everytime kusanagi strikes an explove bunshin, the blast should take Orochimaru's bunshin with it; while the real Kusanagi and Orochimaru should be nearly unscathed, which'll allow Itachi to identify the real Orochimaru. Lastly, given the location, Itachi can simply take refuge up on top of one of the branches 30+ meters above the ground, so he doesn't have to worry about constant pestering kusanagi blades surfacing below him.

  • Everything Else

    You placed Orochimaru in quite a comfortable scenario... Attaching Zetsu spores on Itachi, while a bunch of Kage Bunshins wait for there chance to strike with the Kusanagi or Curse Mark from underneath Itachi's feet. Too bad this scenario isn't very realistic. As I mentioned before, Itachi is one of the fastest jutsu executers in the manga – too fast for a 3T Sharingan to keep up with [
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    ]. You can't possibly believe Orochimaru pulls all this off before Itachi takes any means of action. Just by being slightly precautios and sending in a bunshin first pretty much foils this entire tactic. Assuming this does somehow occur, Itachi only needs to
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    (Note how high Itachi jumped [
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    ]) on top of one those high ass trees while simultaneously revoming the spores with a susano'o arm. Orochimaru's true form? The huge snake head that can only attack linearly? You're just asking to get Tsukiyomi'd.
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TheAncientCenturion said:
I cannot wait for your reply. :rolleyes:
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Fool always getting hiself banned. :rolleyes:

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Imperious

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Itachi negs with high-med difficulty. I don't know much about the feats of Zetsu, so will someone please educate me? Maybe then I'll change my mind...
 
Kagustuchi

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Drae already got my vote in a debate for Zetsu Oro beating Kisame. I still think Itachi takes this so far, but lets see how this goes.
 
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