[Spoilers] Chapter 543 Spoilers! Naruto's Kyuubi mode Progress

[leafeater]

Naruto's Kyuubi mode Progress

Manga 543 has been released by around 2PM 5/15/11.

I plan to summarize the training with relevant links to the past in order to facilitate discussion.

My next aim is to discuss with people how they think Naruto has come along compared to the first time he possessed the Kyuubi chakra without control (ex. Haku, Gamabunta, Gaara, Orochimaru, Nagato, etc.) and with control (Kisame, Bee's training, and Raikage).

There seem to be some indicators that Naruto's holding back things he's learned in training against the Raikage as well as that it's clear his training is far more incomplete than I believe it to be. Thus, I created this thread to invite other's opinions on what they thing is happening and will happen; as well, what should they think should happen.

I'm interested in your opinion as to how you think things are progressing. Are they on schedule, behind, disappointed, encouraging, too little to tell, etc?

I'm especially interested in the raw pics released that Castiel has uploaded.

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To summarize training for those who wish to be reminded, with the relevant links see below. I moved it into a spoiler because I found that rather than facilitate discussion, it failed to and rather it inhibited discussion for which I apologize.:

Spoiler

Naruto has had the Kyuubi's yang chakra (Recall the Yin chakra was sealed into the stomach of the Shinigami along with Minato using the Death Reaper Seal) for almost forty chapters now.

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When using the Kyuubi chakra Naruto takes on a distinct TB I mode appearance with amazing life energy that resonates with Mokuton ninjutsu, for example by growing leaves. This appearance has led people to call it Rikodou Sennin mode (RKS) for example:

Spoiler

Kyuubi mode appearance with floating chakra balls

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Immediately after gaining the Kyuubi and going into Kyuubi mode Naruto demonstrated two new amazing abilities.

The first ability is to sense emotion and malice such that he could distinguish between two individuals with identical chakras. No known sensor ninja is known to have this ability.

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The second ability is incredible speed in the same league, as Minato and the Raikage, The fastest ninja we've learned of in the manga.

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albeit not at their level or their degree of control as evidence by him spraining his ankle and getting stuck in the wall.

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Since then, Naruto has undergone training with Killer Bee to his improve his Kyuubi chakra draw efficiency, release, and control, and Kyuubi chakra, which seemed deceptively easy. Namely, the exercise consisted of using chakra arms (like Naruto had in his previous tailed fox cloak modes) to stack blocks of rock from the smashed cave ceiling. Of course, Bee does this masterfully with ease.

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However, when Naruto does the same thing on his first attempt, he literally obliterates the rock when closing the chakra hand.

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So one thing that seems to have been forgotten in Naruto's encounter with the Raikage is the massive strength he has in Kyuubi mode. As currently he's traded using that strength for total control. As seen in Naruto's continued training of the same drill at the bottom of the page before being disrupted here.

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I believe that this type of training is what has allowed for Naruto to gain the control necessary to make his speed usable in order to just compete with the Raikage thusfar and maintain unlike before against Kisame. You'll notice that when the Raikage punches him or he starts/stops or cuts, his foot is highlighted in a panel. For example, at the bottom of the page when Naruto takes off against the Raikage.

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Furthermore, Naruto seems to be fast enough to block the Raikage's attack and mitigate the damage while controlling his fall. Again, I believe this is the result of his Kyuubi chakra control training.

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Further, I'm not sure, but I believe that the Kyuubi mode is giving Naruto some defensive enhancements over his normal self, such that even if Naruto had blocked that blow in his regular state, he would've broken bones. I point this out because in his previous fox cloak, Naruto gained a major "absolute defense" such that in his four-tail state the sword of Kusanagi couldn't pierce him, and it was supposed to pierce anything. Perhaps this is the beginning, or is the the full extent of Kyuubi mode's defensive enhancements if there are any?

In addition to his speed and control, the only other attribute we know Naruto
has improved in his Kyuubi mode is his sensor ability. Where he had been training with Bee was supposed to be impervious to him sensing anything outside according to an Aburame clan member charged with keeping Naruto in his place.

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Yet, he clearly felt the Kyuubi chakra of Kinkaku in his 6-tail state from an incredible distance away.

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Here is where things start to disappoint me given Naruto as seen against the Raikage. Almost 30 chapters ago, Bee said, "Now it's time for the final part... It's gonna be sad, you're gonna feel helpless, but don't get mad, cuz it's time to start!"

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Bee is referring to the tailed beast mode (1st step) and then performing tailed beast bomb (TBB) (2nd step).

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However, because Naruto and the Kyuubi aren't on good terms, Naruto cannot even complete the 1st step (Madara may be deceived because he looks so cute, lol ).

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Because of this, Naruto needs to make a Rasengan with his Kyuubi chakra. However, using shadow clones will kill him.

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Thus, the solution is to use Kyuubi chakra arms.

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Fortunately, as Bee states, Minato's Rasengan is a man made TBB. How convenient...

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After almost 40 chapters of training Naruto has this to show: Probably second fastest ninja to Raikage, only sensor ninja capable of sensing malice/emotion between identical chakras, somewhat enhanced defensive shielding, chakra arms controlled mentally with delicate and powerful control, imperfect TBB Rasengan, level 1 TB mode.

Talking Points + Whatever I left out (Areas I'd like to discuss):

1.) After all of this training, how is it that Naruto has virtually nothing to show against the Raikage? Before, I defended him because he made no offensive maneuvers, yet in the spoilers for this chapters Naruto started to punch the Raikage, whose counter punch landed before Naruto's initial surprise strike. Thus, the Raikage is significantly faster than Naruto. Why? Is Naruto tapping the max Kyuubi chakra he can, and this is the limit? By beginning the TBB training, it meant the Naruto should've completed his training that would've involved control and speed, so I don't know if that's going to be improved.

Bee was able to land a surprise lariat, yet Naruto wasn't able to land a surprise punch?! Naruto's speed seems to have only gained him control, but not necessarily the Raikage's or Minato's level yet he was near it so long ago so I'm a bit surprised that after all this training he hasn't improved.

2.) Does Naruto know that the Raikage is not going to kill him? Given that he can sense malice/killing intent, shouldn't he know the Raikage's intentions? Why is he constantly surprised? If he knows one way or the other is this why he's holding back?

3.) What are Naruto's intentions? He's made no offensive jutsu aside from a punch in the spoilers, no chakra arms that can crush boulders, so what's he doing? He's based his fights on deception through the use of shadow clones, so now he needs a new source of deception. Perhaps he needs to learn how to use the chakra arms underground and splitting off like he's done in fox cloak mode (albeit he wasn't in control after 3-tails)

4.) Why was it that at 4-tails, he was able to stop the sword of Kusanagi in 4-tails, Shinra Tensei aat 6-tail, and Chibaku Tensei at 8-9 tails but now when he's mastered what chakra he stole from the Kyuubi his power is greatly diminished? Further, why was the Kyuubi able to heal him then? What is it that the fox knew that Naruto did not? Does it have to do with the contraints of the chakra operating in Naruto as a vessell when before it forced Naruto as a vessel into awkward shapes to resemble the Kyuubi?

5.) Kyuubi mode forces Naruto to totally alter his way of fighting until and/or unless he makes a deal with the Kyuubi, which I believe has retarded his fighting capabilities somewhat. Yes, he has the chakra arms to form a Rasengan of any variety.

6.) Sasuke's EMS is supposed to put him on level with Naruto. However, Naruto doesn't seem much improved so far, which is why I'm wondering is that's why Kishi is literally keeping the wraps on Sasuke's eyes. They have to be powerful, but Naruto has to match that power, and his Kyuubi mode would not I would guess.

7.) How far along is Naruto's actual training? Near completion, far from completion? It's very hard to tell when Naruto is fighting someone like the Raikage where the biggest thing he's done is throw one punch.

8.) Final question. I would think giving Naruto 5 chapters to let things play out is fair, but that's over a month, and I didn't feel like waiting, so I composed this quickly. My final question is if we are seeing the tip of the iceberg of Kyuubi mode with Naruto, given he hasn't even tried a jutsu. The alternative is that fusion of sage with Kyuubi mode might be the power needed to match the EMS.

However, all his victories so far have relied on using shadow clones, so Naruto needs to learn how to fight in Kyuubi mode. Maybe Bee understood this when he referred to combat accelerating training, after all, that way they can become second nature to him as the clones did.



** As a side note: I'm note sure why Naruto's ability to enter sage mode so quickly followed either Kyuubi mastery or Kyuubi master and training, but that is also the final attribute he has mastered.

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.

Peace

 

[Saberwulf]

woah a lot of words all i have to stay good job but i dont think naruto trained enough in speed only tBB so no experience whatsoever

the spoilers srry can't understand

 

[Taiketsu Yagami]

U have a good point but remember that Naruto can only take so much of the nine tail's chakra so he won't have all the abilities his uncontroled forms had.

 

[Cyborg]

Did'nt read ALL of it(too eager for the manga right now) but you're right. I think the chakra control training in fox mode has had a direct impact on Naruto's current fighting style/abilities

 

[Saberwulf]

@taiketsu can't use all of it at once so that's why he is in that form instead of turning into nine-tails

 

[~Rihan~]

umm just wondering but where is the new episode and magna lol

 

[F1orent]

alot of words there

 

[leafeater]

The majority of the words just summarize the training. If you know what he's been doing, you can skip them and go straight to the talking points or just use this thread as a locus for discussion and not necessarily refer to my OP.

I just wanted to get people talking on why Naruto's progress seems unsatisfactory to so many people and how they think it will will resolve in the future.

Peace

 

[siyo]

nice summarization, and an easy read but i you think overestimated naruto's progress and it seems i was right when i said the raikage probably was the fastest, with his experience.Naruto got the potential,but he is still a rookie when it comes to the nine tails powers.The training was obviously not done since naruto found out about the war and i tend to look at it like a half full cup instead of a half empty one.He learned a lot and obviously it is harder to go faster when you are trying to control your powers than when you go wild, and go in a super fast burst.Btw, what did you expect offensively?

 

[-Hades-]

Ok, nice thinking. And in my opinion it is still the tip of the iceberg in both his training and skills acquired.
The reason might be that Naruto is holding back, i say this because even though A keeps punching him he is sill unharmed, and he hasn't actually tried to attack the Raikage, a mere punch doesn't count, if he was in SM A should have gone flying.He hasn't used his chakra arms, which we know he can, he is just testing his powers, if he wanted he could have gotten past Raikage, just as you said, he is fast enough to block the Raikage... he could just use a huge chakra arm to push him away when in mid air, and pass... A would be right behind him or side by side in a sec but it doesn't matter, he should have tried.
We have yet to see his TBB.
And i agree with you, if this is all there it so his new SO6P mode the i will be disappointed... all that hard work and the fight with the Kiuby for this?...
Oh and remember Naruto is more of a learn as you go type... real fighting experience is better for him then just regular training... everything he has done (final form) was in direct battle: shadow clones, rasengan, rasenshuriken, his summoning...

 

[Koibito]

Yes I agree he did give up power 4 control. I agree that he may have to use sage mode with his kyuubi power in order to defeat sasuke and his new ems

 

[Koibito]

Yes I agree he did give up power 4 control. I agree that he may have to use sage mode with his kyuubi power in order to defeat sasuke and his new ems

 

[leafeater]

U have a good point but remember that Naruto can only take so much of the nine tail's chakra so he won't have all the abilities his uncontroled forms had.

You make a good point regarding his limitation as to how much he can take at a time. What I am wondering currently, is how much is he using now relative to his max and will that amount increase with training and his relationship with the Kyuubi.

Did'nt read ALL of it(too eager for the manga right now) but you're right. I think the chakra control training in fox mode has had a direct impact on Naruto's current fighting style/abilities

I apologize for the length. I moved the training to a spoiler section to make the discussion points, what I really want this thread to be about, more prominent. I appreciate your feedback though. I know this isn't a groundbreaking thread where I pull back a curtain and reveal who Tobi is, but I hope I can lay down the groundwork for a healthy discussion of this aspect of Naruto's development and that someone else will do the same with Sasuke's EMS when shown.

Yes, moving from mastering shadow clones in combat to mastering control of Kyuubi chakra, as demonstrated by stacking the blocks with the Kyuubi chakra arms, I believe is making Naruto think too much. I don't mean this to imply that he's dumb. Rather, when you talk about athletes that tweak their swing or shot, and then they apply it in a game they generally take time before they adopt it without over-thinking things and performing worse. Perhaps right now, Naruto is undergoing short-term losses in hopes of long-term gains.

Peace

@taiketsu can't use all of it at once so that's why he is in that form instead of turning into nine-tails

He can't turn into the nine-tails, i.e. TB mode II, because Naruto and the Kyuubi aren't friendly with each other. Initially the Hachibi and Bee had the same issue.

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umm just wondering but where is the new episode and magna lol

Supposedly it's out. I'll remove the spoiler portion at the top of the thread tomorrow. I don't know how to remove it from the title.

alot of words there

I appreciate the feedback, and welcome to NB! I've adjusted the style of the OP to accommodate a much more streamlined approach that I hope is more accommodating. Please let me know what you think. Thanks

nice summarization, and an easy read but i you think overestimated naruto's progress and it seems i was right when i said the raikage probably was the fastest, with his experience.Naruto got the potential,but he is still a rookie when it comes to the nine tails powers.The training was obviously not done since naruto found out about the war and i tend to look at it like a half full cup instead of a half empty one.He learned a lot and obviously it is harder to go faster when you are trying to control you powers than when go wild and go in a super fast burst.Btw, what did you expect offensively?

I'm glad you found it an easy read, you seem to be the first. Cheers! I've shortened it since I originally posted it in hopes of streamlining things.

Yes, I believe I had overestimated Naruto's progress. Granted it's difficult when Bee says that he's done except for making a TBB, and then all he has to do is make a TBB Rasengan. I think speed-wise my opinion was that until Naruto beat the Raikage directly or demonstrated elsewhere, that the Raikage was the reining champ since Minato's death, so Naruto was second until he proved otherwise. I kept waiting for Naruto to flip the switch and step it up like he has done so many times before, yet he hasn't done it. I hope Naruto can match the Raikage's speed or surpass it, but I'm not sure.

With regards to what I expected offensively. I don't know. Nothing extreme like a large Rasengan, such as a TBB Rasengan. I would've liked to have seen a Kyuubi chakra fist come out of the ground like in the Orochimaru fight, or have one come out of his chest to stop the Raikage punch (that's defensive). Naruto needs to adopt to a different way of fighting unless he works a deal with the Kyuubi or a new seal such that he doesn't have to worry about it stealing his chakra.

Nice response. Peace

Ok, nice thinking. And in my opinion it is still the tip of the iceberg in both his training and skills acquired.
The reason might be that Naruto is holding back, i say this because even though A keeps punching him he is sill unharmed, and he hasn't actually tried to attack the Raikage, a mere punch doesn't count, if he was in SM A should have gone flying.He hasn't used his chakra arms, which we know he can, he is just testing his powers, if he wanted he could have gotten past Raikage, just as you said, he is fast enough to block the Raikage... he could just use a huge chakra arm to push him away when in mid air, and pass... A would be right behind him or side by side in a sec but it doesn't matter, he should have tried.
We have yet to see his TBB.
And i agree with you, if this is all there it so his new SO6P mode the i will be disappointed... all that hard work and the fight with the Kiuby for this?...
Oh and remember Naruto is more of a learn as you go type... real fighting experience is better for him then just regular training... everything he has done (final form) was in direct battle: shadow clones, rasengan, rasenshuriken, his summoning...

It doesn't even feel like he's testing his powers though. When he tried to outrace him a chapter or two back, that was a test. I wonder if Naruto can sense his intent isn't to kill him, so he's going to take the blows, block them of course, but try to get by. Like I said above and you said, I'd like to have seen chakra arms appear for offense and defense. Naruto is a tricky fighter, but without clones, how will he perform his deception? This is critical, and I guess why Bee feels Naruto will learn faster on the battlefield than in the training cave. It would be neat if he could make the chakra arms into clones coming out of the ground or something, as well as come up with a bunch of various shape manipulations.

Historically, Naruto completes things on the battle fields as well, so I don't know.

We have yet to see his TBB. Also, when I was writing this I forgot he still has "that jutsu." When the Hachibi talks to Naruto he says Naruto can't learn the ultimate Jinchuuriki jutsu, and Naruto nods. Then the Hachibi says, so that means you can't use the Tailed Beast Bomb, and Naruto has no clue what he's talking about. Clearly Naruto has at least one more jutsu left after TBB Rasengan. It's either from Minato and/or Jiraiya and has to do with the Kyuubi. Who knows what it is. Kishi hasn't elaborated on it anymore since then, so I doubt he wants us to know anything more until later.


Nice post. Peace

 

[Anub]

This thread contains spoilers for this weeks chapter 543!!!!!

That's my due diligence above along with the title.

I plan to summarize the training with relevant links to the past in order to facilitate discussion.

My next aim is to discuss with people how they think Naruto has come along compared to the first time he possessed the Kyuubi chakra without control (ex. Haku, Gamabunta, Gaara, Orochimaru, Nagato, etc.) and with control (Kisame, Bee's training, and Raikage).

There seem to be some indicators that Naruto's holding back things he's learned in training against the Raikage as well as that it's clear his training is far more incomplete than I believe it to be. Thus, I created this thread to invite other's opinions on what they thing is happening and will happen; as well, what should they think should happen.

I'm interested in your opinion as to how you think things are progressing. Are they on schedule, behind, disappointed, encouraging, too little to tell, etc?

I'm especially interested in the raw pics released that Castiel has uploaded.

You must be registered for see links

To summarize training for those who wish to be reminded, with the relevant links see below. I moved it into a spoiler because I found that rather than facilitate discussion, it failed to and rather it inhibited discussion for which I apologize.:

Spoiler

Naruto has had the Kyuubi's yang chakra (Recall the Yin chakra was sealed into the stomach of the Shinigami along with Minato using the Death Reaper Seal) for almost forty chapters now.

You must be registered for see links

When using the Kyuubi chakra Naruto takes on a distinct TB I mode appearance with amazing life energy that resonates with Mokuton ninjutsu, for example by growing leaves. This appearance has led people to call it Rikodou Sennin mode (RKS) for example:

Spoiler

Kyuubi mode appearance with floating chakra balls

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Immediately after gaining the Kyuubi and going into Kyuubi mode Naruto demonstrated two new amazing abilities.

The first ability is to sense emotion and malice such that he could distinguish between two individuals with identical chakras. No known sensor ninja is known to have this ability.

You must be registered for see links

You must be registered for see links

The second ability is incredible speed in the same league, as Minato and the Raikage, The fastest ninja we've learned of in the manga.

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albeit not at their level or their degree of control as evidence by him spraining his ankle and getting stuck in the wall.

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Since then, Naruto has undergone training with Killer Bee to his improve his Kyuubi chakra draw efficiency, release, and control, and Kyuubi chakra, which seemed deceptively easy. Namely, the exercise consisted of using chakra arms (like Naruto had in his previous tailed fox cloak modes) to stack blocks of rock from the smashed cave ceiling. Of course, Bee does this masterfully with ease.

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However, when Naruto does the same thing on his first attempt, he literally obliterates the rock when closing the chakra hand.

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So one thing that seems to have been forgotten in Naruto's encounter with the Raikage is the massive strength he has in Kyuubi mode. As currently he's traded using that strength for total control. As seen in Naruto's continued training of the same drill at the bottom of the page before being disrupted here.

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I believe that this type of training is what has allowed for Naruto to gain the control necessary to make his speed usable in order to just compete with the Raikage thusfar and maintain unlike before against Kisame. You'll notice that when the Raikage punches him or he starts/stops or cuts, his foot is highlighted in a panel. For example, at the bottom of the page when Naruto takes off against the Raikage.

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Furthermore, Naruto seems to be fast enough to block the Raikage's attack and mitigate the damage while controlling his fall. Again, I believe this is the result of his Kyuubi chakra control training.

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Further, I'm not sure, but I believe that the Kyuubi mode is giving Naruto some defensive enhancements over his normal self, such that even if Naruto had blocked that blow in his regular state, he would've broken bones. I point this out because in his previous fox cloak, Naruto gained a major "absolute defense" such that in his four-tail state the sword of Kusanagi couldn't pierce him, and it was supposed to pierce anything. Perhaps this is the beginning, or is the the full extent of Kyuubi mode's defensive enhancements if there are any?

In addition to his speed and control, the only other attribute we know Naruto
has improved in his Kyuubi mode is his sensor ability. Where he had been training with Bee was supposed to be impervious to him sensing anything outside according to an Aburame clan member charged with keeping Naruto in his place.

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Yet, he clearly felt the Kyuubi chakra of Kinkaku in his 6-tail state from an incredible distance away.

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Here is where things start to disappoint me given Naruto as seen against the Raikage. Almost 30 chapters ago, Bee said, "Now it's time for the final part... It's gonna be sad, you're gonna feel helpless, but don't get mad, cuz it's time to start!"

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Bee is referring to the tailed beast mode (1st step) and then performing tailed beast bomb (TBB) (2nd step).

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However, because Naruto and the Kyuubi aren't on good terms, Naruto cannot even complete the 1st step (Madara may be deceived because he looks so cute, lol ).

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Because of this, Naruto needs to make a Rasengan with his Kyuubi chakra. However, using shadow clones will kill him.

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Thus, the solution is to use Kyuubi chakra arms.

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Fortunately, as Bee states, Minato's Rasengan is a man made TBB. How convenient...

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After almost 40 chapters of training Naruto has this to show: Probably second fastest ninja to Raikage, only sensor ninja capable of sensing malice/emotion between identical chakras, somewhat enhanced defensive shielding, chakra arms controlled mentally with delicate and powerful control, imperfect TBB Rasengan, level 1 TB mode.

Talking Points + Whatever I left out (Areas I'd like to discuss):

1.) After all of this training, how is it that Naruto has virtually nothing to show against the Raikage? Before, I defended him because he made no offensive maneuvers, yet in the spoilers for this chapters Naruto started to punch the Raikage, whose counter punch landed before Naruto's initial surprise strike. Thus, the Raikage is significantly faster than Naruto. Why? Is Naruto tapping the max Kyuubi chakra he can, and this is the limit? By beginning the TBB training, it meant the Naruto should've completed his training that would've involved control and speed, so I don't know if that's going to be improved.

Bee was able to land a surprise lariat, yet Naruto wasn't able to land a surprise punch?! Naruto's speed seems to have only gained him control, but not necessarily the Raikage's or Minato's level yet he was near it so long ago so I'm a bit surprised that after all this training he hasn't improved.

2.) Does Naruto know that the Raikage is not going to kill him? Given that he can sense malice/killing intent, shouldn't he know the Raikage's intentions? Why is he constantly surprised? If he knows one way or the other is this why he's holding back?

3.) What are Naruto's intentions? He's made no offensive jutsu aside from a punch in the spoilers, no chakra arms that can crush boulders, so what's he doing? He's based his fights on deception through the use of shadow clones, so now he needs a new source of deception. Perhaps he needs to learn how to use the chakra arms underground and splitting off like he's done in fox cloak mode (albeit he wasn't in control after 3-tails)

4.) Why was it that at 4-tails, he was able to stop the sword of Kusanagi in 4-tails, Shinra Tensei aat 6-tail, and Chibaku Tensei at 8-9 tails but now when he's mastered what chakra he stole from the Kyuubi his power is greatly diminished? Further, why was the Kyuubi able to heal him then? What is it that the fox knew that Naruto did not? Does it have to do with the contraints of the chakra operating in Naruto as a vessell when before it forced Naruto as a vessel into awkward shapes to resemble the Kyuubi?

5.) Kyuubi mode forces Naruto to totally alter his way of fighting until and/or unless he makes a deal with the Kyuubi, which I believe has retarded his fighting capabilities somewhat. Yes, he has the chakra arms to form a Rasengan of any variety.

6.) Sasuke's EMS is supposed to put him on level with Naruto. However, Naruto doesn't seem much improved so far, which is why I'm wondering is that's why Kishi is literally keeping the wraps on Sasuke's eyes. They have to be powerful, but Naruto has to match that power, and his Kyuubi mode would not I would guess.

7.) How far along is Naruto's actual training? Near completion, far from completion? It's very hard to tell when Naruto is fighting someone like the Raikage where the biggest thing he's done is throw one punch.

8.) Final question. I would think giving Naruto 5 chapters to let things play out is fair, but that's over a month, and I didn't feel like waiting, so I composed this quickly. My final question is if we are seeing the tip of the iceberg of Kyuubi mode with Naruto, given he hasn't even tried a jutsu. The alternative is that fusion of sage with Kyuubi mode might be the power needed to match the EMS.

However, all his victories so far have relied on using shadow clones, so Naruto needs to learn how to fight in Kyuubi mode. Maybe Bee understood this when he referred to combat accelerating training, after all, that way they can become second nature to him as the clones did.



** As a side note: I'm note sure why Naruto's ability to enter sage mode so quickly followed either Kyuubi mastery or Kyuubi master and training, but that is also the final attribute he has mastered.

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.

Peace

I was about to start a similar thread as soon as I read the manga, but you beat me to it.

So what I gathered is this (i will reply to your points instead of randomly posting my opinions):

1. I think Naruto is still not using his best. It's true that he is surprisingly weak against A, but he can still go a few steps further. First attack : naruto still underestimates A. ("he's really fast after all"). But still...he's only attacking straight on, no jutsu, no tactics. Seems a bit low.

2. You do make a good point: why is he constantly surprised? I tend to think it's a make-manga-interesting-no-jutsu.

3. I believe Naruto doesn't want to kill A and just wants to pass straight on, maybe without using too much chakra, but he is still not thinking and attacking straight on for some reason. Seems a bit dumb.

4. I think it's still too soon to say that his power's diminished. And if it is, I presume that Kishi didn't want to make naruto be as strong as what the 9tails was in the flashbacks because that might mean that he doesn't have an adversary or get to DBZ levels of power.

5. I think Naruto is too dependent on his fox-form now and probably overestimates himself. He was planning on being able to easily push A from his side and win the war, but he is weaker than he thinks.

6. This is debatable. Depending on how the story goes, Sasuke might end up stronger than Naruto and might end up saving Naruto (as opposed to Naruto always trying to save him). But it's too early to tell. However, I'm still hoping for a massive powerup from MS to EMS.

7. I'm thinking that Naruto's training is close to completion simply because he is heading to war and this might be the end of the manga. I don't see why Kishi would send an unprepared Naruto to war and then end the manga before he can reach his full potential. He will either complete his training on the battlefield or it is completed already.

8. I didn't get what the question was, but I believe you might be right about Sage mode + kyuubi. I doubt sage mode was introduced and then swapped after less than 100 chapters for something "stronger". Maybe EMS = Sage + Kyuubi. Or maybe with Sage mode he could use nature chakra to complete the fox's chakra (replace the half that is sealed) and somehow create a complete fox-form. But I lost all hope in Naruto being strong right now.

9(a point I would like to make). Bee should normally be weaker than Naruto(fox) and he defeated A(at his best). That should automatically make Naruto stronger+faster than A, but we have yet to see.

 

[Kyuubikiller]

It's way to early to sum up the fruits of Naruto's training by reading only one ep, btw the new manga ep is out if you haven't read it yet. I do believe Naruto was holding back and yes, the controlled kyuubi form is not as raw in power and speed as it would be uncontrolled, but with control comes less risks. I will give it a few more eps, but I honestly don't think the true potential of his new kyuubi form won't be displayed for a while, there is just too much going on right now to focus on one thing.

 

[Avani]

I think Naruto was a filler character in this chapter and basically it was about Bee. naruto always takes time in getting pumped up anyway.

 

[leafeater]

Originally Posted by Anub

I was about to start a similar thread as soon as I read the manga, but you beat me to it.

So what I gathered is this (i will reply to your points instead of randomly posting my opinions):

It's nice to see someone else was thinking along the same lines.

1. I think Naruto is still not using his best. It's true that he is surprisingly weak against A, but he can still go a few steps further. First attack : naruto still underestimates A. ("he's really fast after all"). But still...he's only attacking straight on, no jutsu, no tactics. Seems a bit low.

Yeah, it's very odd. Naruto is thinking so simplistically. To a limited extent, he thinks (now that I've read the chapter) that if he keeps knocking, the Raikage will go down, but it took Bee several Lariats (a very serious move that can kill). It was kind of like a respect. I saw Siyo made a thread on tough love and the Raikage, and I think that has some play. I agree Naruto was holding back offensively, but I don't think he was holding back speed-wise unless he wasn't drawing all he could of the Kyuubi chakra at a time from that sealed off area, which goes to your point 9 later.

2. You do make a good point: why is he constantly surprised? I tend to think it's a make-manga-interesting-no-jutsu.

Sure, it's a story.

3. I believe Naruto doesn't want to kill A and just wants to pass straight on, maybe without using too much chakra, but he is still not thinking and attacking straight on for some reason. Seems a bit dumb.

Agreed.

4. I think it's still too soon to say that his power's diminished. And if it is, I presume that Kishi didn't want to make naruto be as strong as what the 9tails was in the flashbacks because that might mean that he doesn't have an adversary or get to DBZ levels of power.

Yeah, I don't expect Naruto to preserve all his powers from fox cloak mode such as breaking out of Chibaku Tensei. That would be ridiculously over-powered. It's certainly too soon, and I am fine with waiting, but I felt now was an appropriate time to take a measurement of Naruto's progress. I didn't mean to imply that it stops here.

5. I think Naruto is too dependent on his fox-form now and probably overestimates himself. He was planning on being able to easily push A from his side and win the war, but he is weaker than he thinks.

This is a concern of mine as well. I think it has to do with a combination of things given he didn't have this problem after learning sage mode. When he learned sage mode, he learned it to face an opponent, Nagato that had killed his sensei who also used sage mode. However, with Kyuubi mode, Naruto beat up the Kyuubi and his first opponent is a one-armed Hokage who has insulted and belittled his father. Further, Bee has not been the best role-model for constraint, saying he likes to follow Naruto like a lantern when the Hachibi warns him that Naruto is wasting the Kyuubi chakra.

Naruto can enter sage mode in about 5s and goes pretty fast, he should be using that as his base mode, not Kyuubi mode. I liken the usage to Sasuke using the Sharingan in 3-tomoe as base and EMS as advanced. When he first got his MS he spammed it, which Naruto is now doing. Perhaps, Naruto needs to learn the repercussions before he'll exercise restraint.

6. This is debatable. Depending on how the story goes, Sasuke might end up stronger than Naruto and might end up saving Naruto (as opposed to Naruto always trying to save him). But it's too early to tell. However, I'm still hoping for a massive powerup from MS to EMS.

I too hope for and expect the EMS to grant Sasuke stronger and darker chakra along with of course stronger eyes and a 4th doujutsu. The thing is, as you know, is that Sasuke and Naruto are yin and yang. Recall their battle at the Valley of the End where as soon as one powered up the other then powered up so they were never apart.

7. I'm thinking that Naruto's training is close to completion simply because he is heading to war and this might be the end of the manga. I don't see why Kishi would send an unprepared Naruto to war and then end the manga before he can reach his full potential. He will either complete his training on the battlefield or it is completed already.

There's no way it's completed. He hasn't shown full control, completed the TBB Rasengan, purified the Kyuubi, or completed "that jutsu." He may learn very fast, but he has a long way to go towards learning how to fight in his Kyuubi mode without shadow clones and instead chakra arms for example.

8. I didn't get what the question was, but I believe you might be right about Sage mode + kyuubi. I doubt sage mode was introduced and then swapped after less than 100 chapters for something "stronger". Maybe EMS = Sage + Kyuubi. Or maybe with Sage mode he could use nature chakra to complete the fox's chakra (replace the half that is sealed) and somehow create a complete fox-form. But I lost all hope in Naruto being strong right now.

I guess, I was really trying to get at if Naruto is just choosing to use the tip of the iceberg of his Kyuubi mode powers against the Raikage or if he's seriously lacking due to training or limitations of Kyuubi mode without fusion of sage mode.

9(a point I would like to make). Bee should normally be weaker than Naruto(fox) and he defeated A(at his best). That should automatically make Naruto stronger+faster than A, but we have yet to see.

I agree, but Bee had a huge advantage in that him and A had been working to match each other perfectly for decades for the double Lariat, and they had a friendship/rivalry like Kakashi/Gai in someways that Naruto never would've have been privelage to without at least a fistbump. With more training, there should be no reason that Bee should be stronger than Naruto. After all, Naruto is a training genius. I think that's an area of genius for Naruto we can all agree on. Nicely added point by the way.

It's way to early to sum up the fruits of Naruto's training by reading only one ep, btw the new manga ep is out if you haven't read it yet. I do believe Naruto was holding back and yes, the controlled kyuubi form is not as raw in power and speed as it would be uncontrolled, but with control comes less risks. I will give it a few more eps, but I honestly don't think the true potential of his new kyuubi form won't be displayed for a while, there is just too much going on right now to focus on one thing.

I understand what you're saying regarding it being too early. My choice wasn't to jump the gun. Rather, my aim was to deliver a preliminary evaluation of concern and question what other people thought. I stated that I felt Naruto certainly deserved at least 5, maybe 10 manga, but that becomes months of our real time. Thus, I felt an interim analysis was fair while his full potential plays out in time.

I think Naruto was a filler character in this chapter and basically it was about Bee. naruto always takes time in getting pumped up anyway.

Yeah as was Minato. These chapters have been about A. and Bee ever since Bee intervened. Really, they've been about Bee first.

 

[-Hades-]

And another thing that just came to my mind.... right now Naruto is trying to stop a WAR all by HIMSELF and for that even he knows he needs power. We have seen that there is a limited amount of the nine tailed chakra that he can use and also the more he uses the more of his own chakra goes away to the kiuby, so he is trying to limit the use of it as much as he can, this might be the reason why he is only using it to boost his speed and for defense (you have to admit that those punches from raikage could prove fatal to an ordinary ninja..). Of course both his own chakra as well as the kiuby chakra will regenerate but that takes some time, and he doesn't really have that much.

 

[Avani]

Yeah, it's very odd. Naruto is thinking so simplistically. To a limited extent, he thinks (now that I've read the chapter) that if he keeps knocking, the Raikage will go down, but it took Bee several Lariats (a very serious move that can kill). It was kind of like a respect. I saw Siyo made a thread on tough love and the Raikage, and I think that has some play. I agree Naruto was holding back offensively, but I don't think he was holding back speed-wise unless he wasn't drawing all he could of the Kyuubi chakra at a time from that sealed off area, which goes to your point 9 later.

One of the reasons I can think of at the moment of why Naruto would hold back is that A is Raikage. Sasuke was declared a missing nin for attacking Be and naruto wouldn't want to add to complications at the moment- but he rarely thinks that far ahead. Other than that he has been training with Bee and A is after all known as Bee's brother. Naruto understand that kind of thing. also he has shown a certain respect for that old guys in his own ways in the past and needed a little more push ( Totally believe that they were evil) before he went all out against them.

Then he has been wasting Kyuubi chakra to some extent- we have no idea how much.

There's no way it's completed. He hasn't shown full control, completed the TBB Rasengan, purified the Kyuubi, or completed "that jutsu." He may learn very fast, but he has a long way to go towards learning how to fight in his Kyuubi mode without shadow clones and instead chakra arms for example.

He may not get rid of chakra arms. Maybe because his chakra is too much/strong for being controled by single hand or it's just Naruto and he stated a problem and Bee gave a solution.

I agree that he has a long way to go. Bee is almost Minato's age. (Mianto was not even 30 when he became a Hokage.) He was a talented and strong shinobi and has been a perfect host and a jinchuriki in control for several years. He certainly has an advantage over Naruto in terms of experience, knowledge and skills with the beast.

Bee already said that Naruto needed more training and he would get it better in the field- he has already seen enough of Naruto to notice that Naruto learns more that way and that's where his talent lies.

I guess, I was really trying to get at if Naruto is just choosing to use the tip of the iceberg of his Kyuubi mode powers against the Raikage or if he's seriously lacking due to training or limitations of Kyuubi mode without fusion of sage mode.

it's certainly just the tip of the ice berg. Why he is lacking is hard to tell at the moment - lack of training/experience is the most plausable cause.

I agree, but Bee had a huge advantage in that him and A had been working to match each other perfectly for decades for the double Lariat, and they had a friendship/rivalry like Kakashi/Gai in someways that Naruto never would've have been privelage to without at least a fistbump. With more training, there should be no reason that Bee should be stronger than Naruto. After all, Naruto is a training genius. I think that's an area of genius for Naruto we can all agree on. Nicely added point by the way.

Agreed.

I understand what you're saying regarding it being too early. My choice wasn't to jump the gun. Rather, my aim was to deliver a preliminary evaluation of concern and question what other people thought. I stated that I felt Naruto certainly deserved at least 5, maybe 10 manga, but that becomes months of our real time. Thus, I felt an interim analysis was fair while his full potential plays out in time.



Yeah as was Minato. These chapters have been about A. and Bee ever since Bee intervened. Really, they've been about Bee first.

That's what I wanted to say- it's too early to comment on Naruto. This time manga was not much of a reflection on him. The chapter was concentrated on Bee and his brother. I understand that everybody is curious about Naruto's progress but we will have to wait. Naruto is still in the training- Bee already said that.

Sorry I was too abrupt last night. it was late and I was almost asleep on my keeyboard.

 

[leafeater]

And another thing that just came to my mind.... right now Naruto is trying to stop a WAR all by HIMSELF and for that even he knows he needs power. We have seen that there is a limited amount of the nine tailed chakra that he can use and also the more he uses the more of his own chakra goes away to the kiuby, so he is trying to limit the use of it as much as he can, this might be the reason why he is only using it to boost his speed and for defense (you have to admit that those punches from raikage could prove fatal to an ordinary ninja..). Of course both his own chakra as well as the kiuby chakra will regenerate but that takes some time, and he doesn't really have that much.

I guess I wouldn't say that Naruto is trying to stop a war all by himself, but that he's try also trying to stop "war" all by himself. I think Naruto is trying to use ending the 4th great ninja war as a step to ending all ninja wars, which is an incredible burden. Honestly, I foresee the Kyuubi being an ally, not a friend per se, but an ally.

Yeah, I think when the Raikage and Tsunade intercepted them, Naruto was not fully tapping the Kyuubi's chakra as he was just using it to get to the battlefield faster, but he was wasting it even then according to the Hachibi. It takes Naruto about 5s to enter sage mode, which is fast enough in my opinion. However, when his friends are at stake, nothing but the best will do for Naruto I guess.

I agree the Kyuubi mode is providing some sort of defensive enhancement to Naruto that's ameliorating damage like sage mode. Even though Naruto is blocking punches, the bones in his arms would broken on impact from those given how they sent his body flying backward.

Yeah, one thing that I'm curious as you mentioned is that both the Kyuubi's and Naruto's chakra regenerates, but I wonder what the speed is, and how that's going to impact Naruto in the future. Will he have to steal or ask for chakra again in the future. Perhaps he'll work out a deal with the Kyuubi?

Peace

Originally Posted by isthatnecessary

1.) One of the reasons I can think of at the moment of why Naruto would hold back is that A is Raikage. Sasuke was declared a missing nin for attacking Bee and Naruto wouldn't want to add to complications at the moment- but he rarely thinks that far ahead.

Other than that he has been training with Bee, and A is after all known as Bee's brother. Naruto understands that kind of thing. also he has shown a certain respect for that old guys in his own ways in the past and needed a little more push ( Totally believe that they were evil) before he went all out against them.

Then he has been wasting Kyuubi chakra to some extent- we have no idea how much.

Yeah, I don't think Sasuke is involved here , but you also kind of discount that, so I see where you're going. I think you're correct with the rest of your answer. One of the most important words to Naruto is "bonds," and he would never do something that would knowingly damage the bonds between A. and Bee. Further, while I think disrespects Granny Raikage, he's spent so much time raised, trained, and/or guided by older ninja (Sarutobi, Jiraiya, Tsunade, Ma and Pa toad) that he has a connection to that generation, which is a bit unique.

I never expected Naruto to never go out, but I just couldn't understand how he couldn't come up with any deception. I think that has a lot to do with his inability to to use shadow clones in Kyuubi mode, but I think there's ground to grow there as there can only be, lol.

2.) He may not get rid of chakra arms. Maybe because his chakra is too much/strong for being controlled by single hand or it's just Naruto and he stated a problem and Bee gave a solution.

I don't want him to get rid of the chakra arms, I want him to use them to maximize his potential in Kyuubi mode, just like Bee uses his octopus tentacles (granted Naruto should do so in his own way, granted I guess they'd appear as tails perhaps)

3.) I agree that he has a long way to go. Bee is almost Minato's age. (Mianto was not even 30 when he became a Hokage.) He was a talented and strong shinobi and has been a perfect host and a jinchuriki in control for several years. He certainly has an advantage over Naruto in terms of experience, knowledge and skills with the beast.

Minato was 21 when he was made Hokage, so he would be older than Minato if he's 30. I agree that he has the edge in terms of experience, knowledge and skills with his Hachibi. As well, it seems like the Cloud village has more experience using their Jinchuuriki as weapons than the Leaf has had with the Kyuubi. It doesn't seem like the Leaf ever used Mito or Kushina as more than vessels for the Kyuubi rather than weapons for war.

However, I don't know how much of the manga is left. One advantage Naruto has is he's a training genius. He may never win a game of Shogi in his life to Tonton, but when it comes to training or in combat situations, Naruto's instinctive intellect is on par with anyone. It's also very different. Shikamaru will cook up a strategy, but he'll know exactly what he's thinking and why. Naruto is much more intuitive. When training with Bee on the TBB Rasengan for the 8:2 (yes, correctly it's 4:1) ratio he said something like, "let me know when I'm there and I'll feel it and know"

The thing is that I don't know how much longer the manga has, so I'm worried that as Madara is rushing, it is reflective that Kishi is too.

4.) Bee already said that Naruto needed more training and he would get it better in the field- he has already seen enough of Naruto to notice that Naruto learns more that way and that's where his talent lies.

This is a good point that I agree on. Naruto has always completed his training in battle. The Rasengan on Kabuto, FRS 50% on Kakuzu and 100% on Pain. Mass shadow clones to protect Iruka and being thrown off a cliff to learn how to forcuefully draw the Kyuubi chakra and summon Gamabunta. I think Naruto has mostly reached his limit as far as training goes in a cave. He needs to hit the battlefield!

5.) it's certainly just the tip of the ice berg. Why he is lacking is hard to tell at the moment - lack of training/experience is the most plausible cause.

Yeah, lack of experience is an issue, and he can't accelerate it with shadow clones unless he figures out a trick to make Kyuubi clones, which I doubt. Honestly mopping up Zetsu's may be the the best thing for him along with the Edo Tensei's. Sasuke still has his eyes bandaged, so I presume that he'll need some time to train too. Maybe now is their time to train while Madara and Kabuto finish preparations for their plans and the alliance finish up much of the war efforts on their end. Thus, we move toward a final equilibrium.

6.) That's what I wanted to say- it's too early to comment on Naruto. This time manga was not much of a reflection on him. The chapter was concentrated on Bee and his brother. I understand that everybody is curious about Naruto's progress but we will have to wait. Naruto is still in the training- Bee already said that.

Yes I agree that we have to wait, but like I said to the previous person who brought up the same point. I wanted to evaluate Naruto performance now at an interim stage. I know he's not complete, and I don't mean this thread to be a final judgement at all. I'm just trying to get a handle on where Naruto is now compared to where I thought he was and where others thought he was. Clearly he still needs to grow, and the Raikage by blocking the path to the battlefield, was inhibiting their growth.

Sorry I was too abrupt last night. it was late and I was almost asleep on my keyboard.

Not a problem, I thought you made an excellent point regarding Naruto as more of a side character with Bee and then A as the main characters in the recent chapters. That goes into the "what I missed" category for me.

Peace