You make a good point regarding his limitation as to how much he can take at a time. What I am wondering currently, is how much is he using now relative to his max and will that amount increase with training and his relationship with the Kyuubi.
I apologize for the length. I moved the training to a spoiler section to make the discussion points, what I really want this thread to be about, more prominent. I appreciate your feedback though. I know this isn't a groundbreaking thread where I pull back a curtain and reveal who Tobi is, but I hope I can lay down the groundwork for a healthy discussion of this aspect of Naruto's development and that someone else will do the same with Sasuke's EMS when shown.
Yes, moving from mastering shadow clones in combat to mastering control of Kyuubi chakra, as demonstrated by stacking the blocks with the Kyuubi chakra arms, I believe is making Naruto think too much. I don't mean this to imply that he's dumb. Rather, when you talk about athletes that tweak their swing or shot, and then they apply it in a game they generally take time before they adopt it without over-thinking things and performing worse. Perhaps right now, Naruto is undergoing short-term losses in hopes of long-term gains.
Peace
He can't turn into the nine-tails, i.e. TB mode II, because Naruto and the Kyuubi aren't friendly with each other. Initially the Hachibi and Bee had the same issue.
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Supposedly it's out. I'll remove the spoiler portion at the top of the thread tomorrow. I don't know how to remove it from the title.
I appreciate the feedback, and welcome to NB! I've adjusted the style of the OP to accommodate a much more streamlined approach that I hope is more accommodating. Please let me know what you think. Thanks
I'm glad you found it an easy read, you seem to be the first. Cheers! I've shortened it since I originally posted it in hopes of streamlining things.
Yes, I believe I had overestimated Naruto's progress. Granted it's difficult when Bee says that he's done except for making a TBB, and then all he has to do is make a TBB Rasengan. I think speed-wise my opinion was that until Naruto beat the Raikage directly or demonstrated elsewhere, that the Raikage was the reining champ since Minato's death, so Naruto was second until he proved otherwise. I kept waiting for Naruto to flip the switch and step it up like he has done so many times before, yet he hasn't done it. I hope Naruto can match the Raikage's speed or surpass it, but I'm not sure.
With regards to what I expected offensively. I don't know. Nothing extreme like a large Rasengan, such as a TBB Rasengan. I would've liked to have seen a Kyuubi chakra fist come out of the ground like in the Orochimaru fight, or have one come out of his chest to stop the Raikage punch (that's defensive). Naruto needs to adopt to a different way of fighting unless he works a deal with the Kyuubi or a new seal such that he doesn't have to worry about it stealing his chakra.
Nice response. Peace
It doesn't even feel like he's testing his powers though. When he tried to outrace him a chapter or two back, that was a test. I wonder if Naruto can sense his intent isn't to kill him, so he's going to take the blows, block them of course, but try to get by. Like I said above and you said, I'd like to have seen chakra arms appear for offense and defense. Naruto is a tricky fighter, but without clones, how will he perform his deception? This is critical, and I guess why Bee feels Naruto will learn faster on the battlefield than in the training cave. It would be neat if he could make the chakra arms into clones coming out of the ground or something, as well as come up with a bunch of various shape manipulations.
Historically, Naruto completes things on the battle fields as well, so I don't know.
We have yet to see his TBB. Also, when I was writing this I forgot he still has "that jutsu." When the Hachibi talks to Naruto he says Naruto can't learn the ultimate Jinchuuriki jutsu, and Naruto nods. Then the Hachibi says, so that means you can't use the Tailed Beast Bomb, and Naruto has no clue what he's talking about. Clearly Naruto has at least one more jutsu left after TBB Rasengan. It's either from Minato and/or Jiraiya and has to do with the Kyuubi. Who knows what it is. Kishi hasn't elaborated on it anymore since then, so I doubt he wants us to know anything more until later.
Yes, perhaps he is. However, i do think that Naruto had already achieved mastery of brute strength in fox mode before he went on to the rock training for achieving better control. I also think that his lack of apparent performance against Raikage might be because he is due for yet another power up. Remember Itachi's gift? Well now they've shown him a couple of times with Nagato and i think its for a reason. Kyuubi mode + Itachi's powers =Naruto pwning Raikage A...?
Then there's also the other point of Naruto never having learned space time jutsu/s despite his father being a master of these, as we've been shown in the last 2 chapters. There are, to my mind, several ways via which Naruto can increase his effectiveness in battle.
With regards to what I expected offensively. I don't know. Nothing extreme like a large Rasengan, such as a TBB Rasengan. I would've liked to have seen a Kyuubi chakra fist come out of the ground like in the Orochimaru fight, or have one come out of his chest to stop the Raikage punch (that's defensive). Naruto needs to adopt to a different way of fighting unless he works a deal with the Kyuubi or a new seal such that he doesn't have to worry about it stealing his chakra.
I like this idea since it would make naruto a complete fighter, and there no limitations for how long a kyuubi chakra fist could go.He would be able to hit all his close range jutsus from far away, that way he would be protected from close range counters.
Perhaps he could make a chakra shield like they do in the hyuuga clan.This way, he would make his own little susano, because nobody would be able to pierce it.
However, the big question is how much he can really do without the fox cooperating, and as you mentioned how much kyuubi chakra naruto can take without the fox intervening.
Yes, perhaps he is. However, i do think that Naruto had already achieved mastery of brute strength in fox mode before he went on to the rock training for achieving better control.
I also think that his lack of apparent performance against Raikage might be because he is due for yet another power up. Remember Itachi's gift? Well now they've shown him a couple of times with Nagato and i think its for a reason. Kyuubi mode + Itachi's powers =Naruto pwning Raikage A...?
Then there's also the other point of Naruto never having learned space time jutsu/s despite his father being a master of these, as we've been shown in the last 2 chapters. There are, to my mind, several ways via which Naruto can increase his effectiveness in battle.
Yes, perhaps he mastered the brute strength part during his training with Jiraiya as we've seen him use it in his 1-3 tails states when he has mental control; however, it's also possible that he simply didn't know his own power.
I wouldn't be surprised at all by another power up. While Itachi's gift is possible, Itachi hoped he would never need it, and I think he'd want Naruto, who has become the ultimate protector of Konoha, to be as powerful as possible. When I think of power ups three things come to my mind.
Possible Powerups (off the top of my head): First, there is the fusion of some kind of sage and Kyuubi mode. Kyuubi mode is purely Yang chakra, fusion with nature chakra would grant Naruto a yin and yang state, further, senjutsu enhances all ninjutsu, so it should enhance everything Naruto does in Kyuubi mode such as speed, sensor abilities/range, and any jutsu like the TBB Rasengan.
Second, Naruto has not revealed what his "that jutsu" is yet other than that he has it. If you check the links in my OP under the spoiler section, when the Hachibi and Naruto think about the ultimate Jinchuuriki jutsu they come up with different answers as the Hachibi mentions the TBB, but Naruto is thinking of something else and has no clue what the TBB is. Thus, there's definitely "that jutsu".
Third, Naruto fully taming the Kyuubi, could provide huge benefits to Naruto's Kyuubi mode and may be a requisite for sage mode fusion if it's even possible. I'm not saying Naruto will ride the Kyuubi through fields of wheat, or go through a day of breaking him in like he did with Gamabunta. I expect them to be more like reluctant allies, with a promise from Naruto to free him.
Yeah, FTG was Minato's jutsu, so I don't know if Naruto learns that. It's a Fuuinjutsu first, and Naruto is an Uzumaki; thus, I think (at least I'd like) for him to develop a Fuuinjutsu that takes advantage of the Kyuubi chakra. We know that it will require the Kyuubi chakra to be mastered. Given Kishi taking several recent chapters (about 5) to cover the Uzumaki as distant blood relatives to the Senju and thus the So6P's, I think that this will become important. Maybe it's just going to be the seal for the Juubi, which seems underwhelming; however, remember, Madara said that becoming the Juubi Jinchuuriki made the So6P's supra-human.
Of course if Naruto does get a powerup, he'll have to learn how to use it. Before fighting Pain, he trained in sage mode with Pa Toad extensively. Further, any powerups for Naruto would mean Sasuke's EMS would evolve, so Sasuke fans should want this as much as Naruto fans I suppose.
Yes, perhaps he mastered the brute strength part during his training with Jiraiya as we've seen him use it in his 1-3 tails states when he has mental control; however, it's also possible that he simply didn't know his own power.
I wouldn't be surprised at all by another power up. While Itachi's gift is possible, Itachi hoped he would never need it, and I think he'd want Naruto, who has become the ultimate protector of Konoha, to be as powerful as possible. When I think of power ups three things come to my mind.
Possible Powerups (off the top of my head): First, there is the fusion of some kind of sage and Kyuubi mode. Kyuubi mode is purely Yang chakra, fusion with nature chakra would grant Naruto a yin and yang state, further, senjutsu enhances all ninjutsu, so it should enhance everything Naruto does in Kyuubi mode such as speed, sensor abilities/range, and any jutsu like the TBB Rasengan.
Second, Naruto has not revealed what his "that jutsu" is yet other than that he has it. If you check the links in my OP under the spoiler section, when the Hachibi and Naruto think about the ultimate Jinchuuriki jutsu they come up with different answers as the Hachibi mentions the TBB, but Naruto is thinking of something else and has no clue what the TBB is. Thus, there's definitely "that jutsu".
Third, Naruto fully taming the Kyuubi, could provide huge benefits to Naruto's Kyuubi mode and may be a requisite for sage mode fusion if it's even possible. I'm not saying Naruto will ride the Kyuubi through fields of wheat, or go through a day of breaking him in like he did with Gamabunta. I expect them to be more like reluctant allies, with a promise from Naruto to free him.
Yeah, FTG was Minato's jutsu, so I don't know if Naruto learns that. It's a Fuuinjutsu first, and Naruto is an Uzumaki; thus, I think (at least I'd like) for him to develop a Fuuinjutsu that takes advantage of the Kyuubi chakra. We know that it will require the Kyuubi chakra to be mastered. Given Kishi taking several recent chapters (about 5) to cover the Uzumaki as distant blood relatives to the Senju and thus the So6P's, I think that this will become important. Maybe it's just going to be the seal for the Juubi, which seems underwhelming; however, remember, Madara said that becoming the Juubi Jinchuuriki made the So6P's supra-human.
Of course if Naruto does get a powerup, he'll have to learn how to use it. Before fighting Pain, he trained in sage mode with Pa Toad extensively. Further, any powerups for Naruto would mean Sasuke's EMS would evolve, so Sasuke fans should want this as much as Naruto fans I suppose.
I'm not 100 % certain at this point if Naruto's being an Uzumaki will have any serious impact on the future storyline at this point. Sure, the history of sealing jutsus that the clan has would suggest it might have an impact on the story in the future.
About 'that' jutsu, i have had a personal opinion on it for a very long time, even though strictly speaking the manga says its not possible. The Dead Demon Seal, which seals your and any other person/beings soul in the belly of the reaper is in my opinion the 'that' jutsu which Jiraiya referred to. I know Naruto is a jinchuriki, but i have a suspicion Minato managed to work around that somehow by giving the key to unlock this mad powerful ability and sealed it inside Naruto at his birth. It would'nt be surprising considering how much else he managed to seal in him on that one day, lol.
Something else i'd like to add here. I don't think the Kyuubi's chakra is required at all to perform FTG. Its actually possible(though maybe a bit of a stretch at this point in the manga) that Madara is successful in extracting the Kyuubi from Naruto, somehow Kishi makes Naruto survive. After this, Naruto learns FTG, level 1,2 and invents 3 and inadvertently teams up with Sasuke to defeat 10 tail Juubi host Madara.......now that would be epic. Like i said its a stretch, but since the series underlying theme is to not give up, etc and not gifted power ups, it might be how kishi wants to see it come to pass that even without the Kyuubi Naruto managed to reach the level needed to defeat Madara the final Akatsuki. I'd like sth like that anyways.
About the thing with Naruto not being able to use his previous fighting style with shadow clones... we know how naruto is somewhat stubborn in some aspects. We also know that he is able to do shadow clones in SO6P mode and that doesn't neccesarely kill him right away, it only allows the kiuby to drain more chakra at once.
Wouldn't you be surprised if the Naruto fighting A right now would stop at a moment, say an epic line and then disappear? leaving everyone confused? Now that would be epic, and imagine the look on their faces to see that it was only a shadow clone. xd
I like this idea since it would make naruto a complete fighter, and there no limitations for how long a kyuubi chakra fist could go.He would be able to hit all his close range jutsus from far away, that way he would be protected from close range counters.
Perhaps he could make a chakra shield like they do in the hyuuga clan.This way, he would make his own little susano, because nobody would be able to pierce it.
However, the big question is how much he can really do without the fox cooperating, and as you mentioned how much kyuubi chakra naruto can take without the fox intervening.
Yeah, I get really excited thinking back to the Orochimaru fight when Naruto was still 3-tails and he sent Orochimaru flying with one swipe along with slashing his face off along with maintaining the seal and thus having mental control. Really, if he could get a strong control, he should be able to use up to 9 chakra arms at a time due to the 9-tails since he's demonstrated that his tailed beast mode I is stable. I can imagine him fighting a lot like Gaara and Kimimaro perhaps, but in a style that would be his own.
Really, if Naruto had blocked the first punch from this latest issue with a chakra palm say from his chest, this thread might not exist, or it would exist with a totally different slant to it.
I'm not 100 % certain at this point if Naruto's being an Uzumaki will have any serious impact on the future storyline at this point. Sure, the history of sealing jutsus that the clan has would suggest it might have an impact on the story in the future.
About 'that' jutsu, i have had a personal opinion on it for a very long time, even though strictly speaking the manga says its not possible. The Dead Demon Seal, which seals your and any other person/beings soul in the belly of the reaper is in my opinion the 'that' jutsu which Jiraiya referred to. I know Naruto is a jinchuriki, but i have a suspicion Minato managed to work around that somehow by giving the key to unlock this mad powerful ability and sealed it inside Naruto at his birth. It would'nt be surprising considering how much else he managed to seal in him on that one day, lol.
Something else i'd like to add here. I don't think the Kyuubi's chakra is required at all to perform FTG. Its actually possible(though maybe a bit of a stretch at this point in the manga) that Madara is successful in extracting the Kyuubi from Naruto, somehow Kishi makes Naruto survive. After this, Naruto learns FTG, level 1,2 and invents 3 and inadvertently teams up with Sasuke to defeat 10 tail Juubi host Madara.......now that would be epic. Like i said its a stretch, but since the series underlying theme is to not give up, etc and not gifted power ups, it might be how kishi wants to see it come to pass that even without the Kyuubi Naruto managed to reach the level needed to defeat Madara the final Akatsuki. I'd like sth like that anyways.
1.) I think the Uzumaki are important for one of a couple of reasons for future development. First, are their sealing prowess and the growing threat of the Juubi. Second, and this one may be more likely is their chakra. They were known for their long life and I think Naruto has a special chakra that allowed him to survive the Kyuubi's, not totally due to his mother's chakra in his eight-trigrams seal. This may be important in the future for Naruto, not sure how yet, but again the Juubi comes to mind.
Kishi has spent a great deal of time on the descendants of the So6P's, namely, the Uchiha, Senju, and Uzumaki for him to discard their story value since Madara is essentially trying to become the So6P's and we are learning of his descendants and what makes them special. He didn't have to make Nagato an Uzumaki, there was no need at all, but he did, so I wonder why. Madara could've simply taken the eyeballs and left, but he threw it in there on purpose for us, why? I don't think it's because Naruto is gonna get the Rinnegan and accidentally sneeze and blow up his village with Shinra Tensei, lol. It seems like Kishi is making the characters look back into their roots in order to find out their future/destiny, and the easiest way to do that is through the selected blood lines of the So6P's, but it's just a thought.
2.) I've considered the DRS being "that" jutsu, but I always thought that Naruto would use the Kyuubi's soul/chakra in place of his own if that were the work around. Albeit, that's a bit dark for Naruto. Thus, maybe if he were to use a portion of the Kyuubi Chakra, like the amount he stole, he could perform the DRS without dying. I think, like many of Minato's jutsu it seems, that DRS is incomplete, and that "that jutsu" is a completed version where what the user sacrifices is not a soul but maybe life energy, which the Kyuubi chakra is brewing with.
3.) Lastly, I don't think Naruto will lose the Kyuubi. The main reason is that 16 years ago, Minato went through a great sacrifice and master plan that he and Kushina have seen through along with Jiraiya, the toads, and even destiny for Naruto to defeat Madara. Kishi has taken us through this entire journey that it seems too late in the game for Naruto to lose it now when he hasn't even mastered everything he needs to, to even face Madara. Second, I have a feeling that Madara has enough in the Amber pot from 6-tailed Kinkaku and Bee's tentacle.
By making 100,000 white Zetsu from Bijou chakra and the heretical statue, he's proven that he doesn't doesn't need 100% of the Bijou's chakra to make the Juubi, just that not having 100% slows him down. Thus, I guesss, once the chakra is in there it begins regenerating, I'm not sure. I don't even know if once in the statue the 1-tails chakra is any different than the 4-tails chakra. If they were still distinct, wouldn't that allow Madara to make his army into weaker and stronger Zetsu for different missions based off of what beast/s they came from? It may just homogenize them once inside the Gedo Mazo or something. Alternatively, Madara is using Izanagi to work things out in a balanced fashion so he can bring the Juubi back as needed.
However, I will say this. Minato never planned on this coming to fruition, I don't think. As brilliant as he was, I don't know how he could've ever foreseen such a heinous act be performed and completely prepared Naruto for it, especially at the tender age of 16.
I could see Sasuke joining Naruto in a one fight alliance maybe. I actually think it's that or Sasuke kills Kabuto and Naruto kills Madara and becomes the Juubi Jinchuuriki or uses a completed DRS seal on it or Madara while he's the Jinchuuriki.
looking back i dont think naruto finished any of his training...he always seems to reveal his new jutsu in big moments...i dont think ive ever seen him finish training..but during the war when least expected...he's gonna do something BIG!!!!!!! either to save sumones life or protect the village jus like he always does....
Yeah, I get really excited thinking back to the Orochimaru fight when Naruto was still 3-tails and he sent Orochimaru flying with one swipe along with slashing his face off along with maintaining the seal and thus having mental control. Really, if he could get a strong control, he should be able to use up to 9 chakra arms at a time due to the 9-tails since he's demonstrated that his tailed beast mode I is stable. I can imagine him fighting a lot like Gaara and Kimimaro perhaps, but in a style that would be his own.
Really, if Naruto had blocked the first punch from this latest issue with a chakra palm say from his chest, this thread might not exist, or it would exist with a totally different slant to it.
Frankly, Naruto was too surprised by Raikage's speed and probabely didn't even remember that he could do that-lol. It happens when one hasn't have enough practice to include the actions into an automatic reflex actions.
2.) I've considered the DRS being "that" jutsu, but I always thought that Naruto would use the Kyuubi's soul/chakra in place of his own if that were the work around. Albeit, that's a bit dark for Naruto. Thus, maybe if he were to use a portion of the Kyuubi Chakra, like the amount he stole, he could perform the DRS without dying. I think, like many of Minato's jutsu it seems, that DRS is incomplete, and that "that jutsu" is a completed version where what the user sacrifices is not a soul but maybe life energy, which the Kyuubi chakra is brewing with.
Maybe. Minato died too young. He didn't get enough tme to finish his work or polish them off.
By making 100,000 white Zetsu from Bijou chakra and the heretical statue, he's proven that he doesn't doesn't need 100% of the Bijou's chakra to make the Juubi, just that not having 100% slows him down. Thus, I guesss, once the chakra is in there it begins regenerating, I'm not sure. I don't even know if once in the statue the 1-tails chakra is any different than the 4-tails chakra. If they were still distinct, wouldn't that allow Madara to make his army into weaker and stronger Zetsu for different missions based off of what beast/s they came from? It may just homogenize them once inside the Gedo Mazo or something. Alternatively, Madara is using Izanagi to work things out in a balanced fashion so he can bring the Juubi back as needed.
If it's the chakra of the same beast I doubt the basic chakra is any different but the beasts themselves have some kind of personality. Their intellect seem to coincide with the number of their tails somewhat. xd
However, I will say this. Minato never planned on this coming to fruition, I don't think. As brilliant as he was, I don't know how he could've ever foreseen such a heinous act be performed and completely prepared Naruto for it, especially at the tender age of 16.
I could see Sasuke joining Naruto in a one fight alliance maybe. I actually think it's that or Sasuke kills Kabuto and Naruto kills Madara and becomes the Juubi Jinchuuriki or uses a completed DRS seal on it or Madara while he's the Jinchuuriki.
MInato left it all to the faith in the end- he did his best and there was nothing more he could at that time. All the other jinchurikis seem a bit older at the time of sealing the beast. Naruto was just a new born. Minato couldn't be 100% sure that he would even survive the process. He just depended that the fact that being Kushina's son he had inherited enough of Kushina's abilities to control it.
Frankly, Naruto was too surprised by Raikage's speed and probabely didn't even remember that he could do that-lol. It happens when one hasn't have enough practice to include the actions into an automatic reflex actions.
Maybe. Minato died too young. He didn't get enough tme to finish his work or polish them off.
If it's the chakra of the same beast I doubt the basic chakra is any different but the beasts themselves have some kind of personality. Their intellect seem to coincide with the number of their tails somewhat. xd
MInato left it all to the faith in the end- he did his best and there was nothing more he could at that time. All the other jinchurikis seem a bit older at the time of sealing the beast. Naruto was just a new born. Minato couldn't be 100% sure that he would even survive the process. He just depended that the fact that being Kushina's son he had inherited enough of Kushina's abilities to control it.
Maybe the Raikage was meant as a wakeup call in a way. As you said these chapters (last 3) were really split between A, Bee, and Minato, with Bee getting the majority of the coverage. Naruto knew the Raikage was gonna punch him because he went back for more, and the first time, he thought something like "he really is fast huh." despite the previous two chapters. This is why he needs to train, so that something like the chakra arms becomes instinct, like when Bee in the flashback shot an Octopus arm to push A that Minato cut instead.
A quick question becuase I'm not clear where your answer stood, for which I apologize. Do you think the chakra in the Gedo Mazo has been homogenized after it's withdrawn from the host and withdrawn. Thus, Gaara's 1-tail chakra is identical to the 3-tails chakra inside the statue, or is that something that's to come? Beforehand, I think when the So6P's used Izanagi the higher the tails came with increased power, intelligence, and malice with the first one confirmed.
Minato definitely did the best he could. He died at 21 I think and he's one of the greatest among the living and dead, so I'm not knocking him for a possibly incomplete jutsu or being able to not foresee future events, as he's done an excellent job so far. But as you go further into the future your prediction will inherently become less accurate no matter how good you are as your error will grow as well unless you're perfect, which no one is.
Also, Minato said he had faith because he's "our" son and to Naruto in his "chakra" mode inside Naruto because he's "his" son, so I don't think it was just because of Kushina's special chakra but something the fourth brought to table, or maybe just fatherly love. I don't, not until I see more I suppose since the two are so different except that they both have talk no jutsu, legendary guts, and other traits I not sure of at the moment.
Maybe the Raikage was meant as a wakeup call in a way. As you said these chapters (last 3) were really split between A, Bee, and Minato, with Bee getting the majority of the coverage. Naruto knew the Raikage was gonna punch him because he went back for more, and the first time, he thought something like "he really is fast huh." despite the previous two chapters. This is why he needs to train, so that something like the chakra arms becomes instinct, like when Bee in the flashback shot an Octopus arm to push A that Minato cut instead.
A quick question becuase I'm not clear where your answer stood, for which I apologize. Do you think the chakra in the Gedo Mazo has been homogenized after it's withdrawn from the host and withdrawn. Thus, Gaara's 1-tail chakra is identical to the 3-tails chakra inside the statue, or is that something that's to come? Beforehand, I think when the So6P's used Izanagi the higher the tails came with increased power, intelligence, and malice with the first one confirmed.
No need to aplogise. I never made a direct answer. I was thinking over your idea and couldn't make up my mind. As I said before- all the chakra is from Jubbi, that's a single beast so basic chakra should be the same but personalities of the beasts were different and their malice and intelligence also differ. The manga doesn't explain that if this changes chakra.
One thing I can remember that mid way while sealing the beasts Akatsuki members had decided to seal nine tails in the last to ballance the statue. Though before Sukaku they had already sealed a few.
I am making a wild guess that even if chakra was the same originally it's affected by the personality of the beasts somewhat and changed to some extent. When it goes back to the statue it may become homogenous again but it needed to be done in a ballanced way. Here, I assume that Madara is not after the jubbi trapped in moon but, he is restroing/recreating jubbi from the statue. Probably there is no jubbi in the moon at the moment to begin with - sage already devided him after all.
Minato definitely did the best he could. He died at 21 I think and he's one of the greatest among the living and dead, so I'm not knocking him for a possibly incomplete jutsu or being able to not foresee future events, as he's done an excellent job so far. But as you go further into the future your prediction will inherently become less accurate no matter how good you are as your error will grow as well unless you're perfect, which no one is.
Also, Minato said he had faith because he's "our" son and to Naruto in his "chakra" mode inside Naruto because he's "his" son, so I don't think it was just because of Kushina's special chakra but something the fourth brought to table, or maybe just fatherly love. I don't, not until I see more I suppose since the two are so different except that they both have talk no jutsu, legendary guts, and other traits I not sure of at the moment.
I wasn't implying that you were knocking him. I should have made that clear. I only added to your post. When I mentioned Kushina I had Kyuubi controlling power in mind. Minato= Harbor, Namikaze means waves and wind. In his talk with Raikage Minato said that they were both from good families and next time they met they would be kages.. So yeah I agree that Minato's linage was important too.
Thanks for the compliment though I think you are just being you- polite. lol.
Manga 543 has been released by around 2PM 5/15/11.
I plan to summarize the training with relevant links to the past in order to facilitate discussion.
My next aim is to discuss with people how they think Naruto has come along compared to the first time he possessed the Kyuubi chakra without control (ex. Haku, Gamabunta, Gaara, Orochimaru, Nagato, etc.) and with control (Kisame, Bee's training, and Raikage).
There seem to be some indicators that Naruto's holding back things he's learned in training against the Raikage as well as that it's clear his training is far more incomplete than I believe it to be. Thus, I created this thread to invite other's opinions on what they thing is happening and will happen; as well, what should they think should happen.
I'm interested in your opinion as to how you think things are progressing. Are they on schedule, behind, disappointed, encouraging, too little to tell, etc?
I'm especially interested in the raw pics released that Castiel has uploaded.
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To summarize training for those who wish to be reminded, with the relevant links see below. I moved it into a spoiler because I found that rather than facilitate discussion, it failed to and rather it inhibited discussion for which I apologize.:
Naruto has had the Kyuubi's yang chakra (Recall the Yin chakra was sealed into the stomach of the Shinigami along with Minato using the Death Reaper Seal) for almost forty chapters now.
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When using the Kyuubi chakra Naruto takes on a distinct TB I mode appearance with amazing life energy that resonates with Mokuton ninjutsu, for example by growing leaves. This appearance has led people to call it Rikodou Sennin mode (RKS) for example:
Kyuubi mode appearance with floating chakra balls
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Immediately after gaining the Kyuubi and going into Kyuubi mode Naruto demonstrated two new amazing abilities.
The first ability is to sense emotion and malice such that he could distinguish between two individuals with identical chakras. No known sensor ninja is known to have this ability.
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The second ability is incredible speed in the same league, as Minato and the Raikage, The fastest ninja we've learned of in the manga.
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albeit not at their level or their degree of control as evidence by him spraining his ankle and getting stuck in the wall.
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Since then, Naruto has undergone training with Killer Bee to his improve his Kyuubi chakra draw efficiency, release, and control, and Kyuubi chakra, which seemed deceptively easy. Namely, the exercise consisted of using chakra arms (like Naruto had in his previous tailed fox cloak modes) to stack blocks of rock from the smashed cave ceiling. Of course, Bee does this masterfully with ease.
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However, when Naruto does the same thing on his first attempt, he literally obliterates the rock when closing the chakra hand.
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So one thing that seems to have been forgotten in Naruto's encounter with the Raikage is the massive strength he has in Kyuubi mode. As currently he's traded using that strength for total control. As seen in Naruto's continued training of the same drill at the bottom of the page before being disrupted here.
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I believe that this type of training is what has allowed for Naruto to gain the control necessary to make his speed usable in order to just compete with the Raikage thusfar and maintain unlike before against Kisame. You'll notice that when the Raikage punches him or he starts/stops or cuts, his foot is highlighted in a panel. For example, at the bottom of the page when Naruto takes off against the Raikage.
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Furthermore, Naruto seems to be fast enough to block the Raikage's attack and mitigate the damage while controlling his fall. Again, I believe this is the result of his Kyuubi chakra control training.
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Further, I'm not sure, but I believe that the Kyuubi mode is giving Naruto some defensive enhancements over his normal self, such that even if Naruto had blocked that blow in his regular state, he would've broken bones. I point this out because in his previous fox cloak, Naruto gained a major "absolute defense" such that in his four-tail state the sword of Kusanagi couldn't pierce him, and it was supposed to pierce anything. Perhaps this is the beginning, or is the the full extent of Kyuubi mode's defensive enhancements if there are any?
In addition to his speed and control, the only other attribute we know Naruto
has improved in his Kyuubi mode is his sensor ability. Where he had been training with Bee was supposed to be impervious to him sensing anything outside according to an Aburame clan member charged with keeping Naruto in his place.
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Yet, he clearly felt the Kyuubi chakra of Kinkaku in his 6-tail state from an incredible distance away.
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Here is where things start to disappoint me given Naruto as seen against the Raikage. Almost 30 chapters ago, Bee said, "Now it's time for the final part... It's gonna be sad, you're gonna feel helpless, but don't get mad, cuz it's time to start!"
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Bee is referring to the tailed beast mode (1st step) and then performing tailed beast bomb (TBB) (2nd step).
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However, because Naruto and the Kyuubi aren't on good terms, Naruto cannot even complete the 1st step (Madara may be deceived because he looks so cute, lol ).
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Because of this, Naruto needs to make a Rasengan with his Kyuubi chakra. However, using shadow clones will kill him.
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Thus, the solution is to use Kyuubi chakra arms.
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Fortunately, as Bee states, Minato's Rasengan is a man made TBB. How convenient...
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After almost 40 chapters of training Naruto has this to show: Probably second fastest ninja to Raikage, only sensor ninja capable of sensing malice/emotion between identical chakras, somewhat enhanced defensive shielding, chakra arms controlled mentally with delicate and powerful control, imperfect TBB Rasengan, level 1 TB mode.
Talking Points + Whatever I left out (Areas I'd like to discuss):
1.) After all of this training, how is it that Naruto has virtually nothing to show against the Raikage? Before, I defended him because he made no offensive maneuvers, yet in the spoilers for this chapters Naruto started to punch the Raikage, whose counter punch landed before Naruto's initial surprise strike. Thus, the Raikage is significantly faster than Naruto. Why? Is Naruto tapping the max Kyuubi chakra he can, and this is the limit? By beginning the TBB training, it meant the Naruto should've completed his training that would've involved control and speed, so I don't know if that's going to be improved.
Bee was able to land a surprise lariat, yet Naruto wasn't able to land a surprise punch?! Naruto's speed seems to have only gained him control, but not necessarily the Raikage's or Minato's level yet he was near it so long ago so I'm a bit surprised that after all this training he hasn't improved.
2.) Does Naruto know that the Raikage is not going to kill him? Given that he can sense malice/killing intent, shouldn't he know the Raikage's intentions? Why is he constantly surprised? If he knows one way or the other is this why he's holding back?
3.) What are Naruto's intentions? He's made no offensive jutsu aside from a punch in the spoilers, no chakra arms that can crush boulders, so what's he doing? He's based his fights on deception through the use of shadow clones, so now he needs a new source of deception. Perhaps he needs to learn how to use the chakra arms underground and splitting off like he's done in fox cloak mode (albeit he wasn't in control after 3-tails)
4.) Why was it that at 4-tails, he was able to stop the sword of Kusanagi in 4-tails, Shinra Tensei aat 6-tail, and Chibaku Tensei at 8-9 tails but now when he's mastered what chakra he stole from the Kyuubi his power is greatly diminished? Further, why was the Kyuubi able to heal him then? What is it that the fox knew that Naruto did not? Does it have to do with the contraints of the chakra operating in Naruto as a vessell when before it forced Naruto as a vessel into awkward shapes to resemble the Kyuubi?
5.) Kyuubi mode forces Naruto to totally alter his way of fighting until and/or unless he makes a deal with the Kyuubi, which I believe has retarded his fighting capabilities somewhat. Yes, he has the chakra arms to form a Rasengan of any variety.
6.) Sasuke's EMS is supposed to put him on level with Naruto. However, Naruto doesn't seem much improved so far, which is why I'm wondering is that's why Kishi is literally keeping the wraps on Sasuke's eyes. They have to be powerful, but Naruto has to match that power, and his Kyuubi mode would not I would guess.
7.) How far along is Naruto's actual training? Near completion, far from completion? It's very hard to tell when Naruto is fighting someone like the Raikage where the biggest thing he's done is throw one punch.
8.) Final question. I would think giving Naruto 5 chapters to let things play out is fair, but that's over a month, and I didn't feel like waiting, so I composed this quickly. My final question is if we are seeing the tip of the iceberg of Kyuubi mode with Naruto, given he hasn't even tried a jutsu. The alternative is that fusion of sage with Kyuubi mode might be the power needed to match the EMS.
However, all his victories so far have relied on using shadow clones, so Naruto needs to learn how to fight in Kyuubi mode. Maybe Bee understood this when he referred to combat accelerating training, after all, that way they can become second nature to him as the clones did.
** As a side note: I'm note sure why Naruto's ability to enter sage mode so quickly followed either Kyuubi mastery or Kyuubi master and training, but that is also the final attribute he has mastered.
My dear aRtisan, I believe you are giving abit too much credit to Kishi, in the sense that even though the man created the manga he does remain human, meaning he does tend to forget dorky details people as nerdy as us (the readers) do keep at hand all the time.
If you think about it, remnembering every single detailk of upgrades, senses, thought an d any other, all of them, would turn the joy of creating such a vast artwork into a nightmare.
My example, the freaking EDO TENSEI....GOsh.. whaT ABout how Kishi did admit there were plotholes beacuse of it and delivered a full manga recorrecting the jutsu??????
My dear aRtisan, I believe you are giving abit too much credit to Kishi, in the sense that even though the man created the manga he does remain human, meaning he does tend to forget dorky details people as nerdy as us (the readers) do keep at hand all the time.
If you think about it, remnembering every single detailk of upgrades, senses, thought an d any other, all of them, would turn the joy of creating such a vast artwork into a nightmare.
My example, the freaking EDO TENSEI....GOsh.. whaT ABout how Kishi did admit there were plotholes beacuse of it and delivered a full manga recorrecting the jutsu??????
Most readers tend to use logic and input that logic into debates. Of course everyone here would agree that manga has flaws, but the beauty of it is that we turn those flaws around and try to explain them. You see, the manga is created by Kishi indeed, but we can maybe find explanations of why inconsistencies occur and therefore we somehow contribute to making it less imperfect. Otherwise, what would be the point of debates if we would just say that naruto won every battle because the main char cannot die mid-series and so on. I understand where you've coming from with these arguments, but also maybe if we try and explain the manga, it seems more complete having great story-line combined with full logical explanations for everything.
No need to aplogise. I never made a direct answer. I was thinking over your idea and couldn't make up my mind. As I said before- all the chakra is from Jubbi, that's a single beast so basic chakra should be the same but personalities of the beasts were different and their malice and intelligence also differ. The manga doesn't explain that if this changes chakra.
One thing I can remember that mid way while sealing the beasts Akatsuki members had decided to seal nine tails in the last to ballance the statue. Though before Sukaku they had already sealed a few.
I am making a wild guess that even if chakra was the same originally it's affected by the personality of the beasts somewhat and changed to some extent. When it goes back to the statue it may become homogenous again but it needed to be done in a ballanced way. Here, I assume that Madara is not after the jubbi trapped in moon but, he is restroing/recreating jubbi from the statue. Probably there is no jubbi in the moon at the moment to begin with - sage already devided him after all.
I wasn't implying that you were knocking him. I should have made that clear. I only added to your post. When I mentioned Kushina I had Kyuubi controlling power in mind. Minato= Harbor, Namikaze means waves and wind. In his talk with Raikage Minato said that they were both from good families and next time they met they would be kages.. So yeah I agree that Minato's linage was important too.
Thanks for the compliment though I think you are just being you- polite. lol.
First, I'm almost always polite I believe (at least I strive) unless someone has slighted me and I'm taking a very subtle jibe at them. What I meant to say is thanks for keeping me "honest." It's a saying that means not that I'm dishonest, but you keep me thinking and you're quick to note a mistake or fault in thought; as well, you are pretty good with the manga. That's what I meant. I don't hand out compliments undeservedly, but I am respectful to everyone as much as I can be.
With regards to what you posted yeah I agree. The Bijou chakra was probably homogenized during the sealing process, "Illusionary Dragon Nine Consuming Seals" when they transfer the Bijou chakra from the Jinchuuriki host to the Gedo Mazo. Otherwise, you'd expect the white Zetsu might have privates, sergeants, Lieutenants, etc., which would be kind of cool (maybe just wishful thinking).
Minato's story I guess isn't done somehow, I thought he was a one and done, with his chakra resurrection in Naruto's head. Now he'll be appearing in other's via flashbacks. We've seen Bee and A have separate flashbacks, he's a man who had a tremendous impact. I personally consider him like a Leonardo da Vinci because of the jutsu he invented even if not perfected. Leonardo didn't fly his helicopter/plane or drive his tank. Further, as you said regarding his Namikaze name, perhaps we'll learn it too has significance, but who's going to tell it? Kushina told us of the Uzumaki, and I can only guess Tsunade or maybe Kakashi (doubtful) will do so. Naruto doesn't need another element, I don't know. Maybe there's nothing there, and it's better off that Minato was a self-made man in a way. I guess we'll see, but he seemed awful confident about his plans and about him being Naruto's father as a component in those plans.
My dear artisan, I believe you are giving abit too much credit to Kishi, in the sense that even though the man created the manga he does remain human, meaning he does tend to forget dorky details people as nerdy as us (the readers) do keep at hand all the time.
If you think about it, remnembering every single detailk of upgrades, senses, thought an d any other, all of them, would turn the joy of creating such a vast artwork into a nightmare.
My example, the freaking EDO TENSEI....GOsh.. whaT ABout how Kishi did admit there were plotholes beacuse of it and delivered a full manga recorrecting the jutsu??????
I understand what you're saying, and to a certain extent I see your point. With respect to Edo Tensei, clearly Kishi let things run amok, and is now probably trying to reign things in. Essentially Edo Tensei was used as a story jutsu to bring back lots of character from the entire series as well as before the series in a very short period of time. Thus, they had to be weak and be numerous. In order to do this he haxed the IWR jutsu in my opinion, and it seems yours too.
What you said about Kishi forgetting the details is true, and true of all authors. Further, often readers find themes, philosophies, social policies, etc. in the literature that authors never conciously intended and make their theses out of that. Thus, you raise a valid point. However, I think that in the end, while some of my points will fall under your line of scrutiny, not all will.
Further, I'm glad you brought this up, as the goal of the thread was not necessarily for everyone to just agree with me but to develop a dialogue, and to have someone develop a nice counter to the very thread itself is nice. At the same time though.
The criticism you apply here, you must realize you have to apply to the other threads on the forum. While you don't need to post it, you should keep it in mind when you feel it's appropriate. Thanks
Most readers tend to use logic and input that logic into debates. Of course everyone here would agree that manga has flaws, but the beauty of it is that we turn those flaws around and try to explain them. You see, the manga is created by Kishi indeed, but we can maybe find explanations of why inconsistencies occur and therefore we somehow contribute to making it less imperfect. Otherwise, what would be the point of debates if we would just say that naruto won every battle because the main char cannot die mid-series and so on. I understand where you've coming from with these arguments, but also maybe if we try and explain the manga, it seems more complete having great story-line combined with full logical explanations for everything.
This was an excellent response, so I'm not going to add much to it. Essentially, this is what we all try to do when we post or make threads in my opinion. You captured it all in a sentence..., elegant.
Minato's story I guess isn't done somehow, I thought he was a one and done, with his chakra resurrection in Naruto's head. Now he'll be appearing in other's via flashbacks. We've seen Bee and A have separate flashbacks, he's a man who had a tremendous impact. I personally consider him like a Leonardo da Vinci because of the jutsu he invented even if not perfected. Leonardo didn't fly his helicopter/plane or drive his tank. Further, as you said regarding his Namikaze name, perhaps we'll learn it too has significance, but who's going to tell it? Kushina told us of the Uzumaki, and I can only guess Tsunade or maybe Kakashi (doubtful) will do so. Naruto doesn't need another element, I don't know. Maybe there's nothing there, and it's better off that Minato was a self-made man in a way. I guess we'll see, but he seemed awful confident about his plans and about him being Naruto's father as a component in those plans.
Yes, Naruto uses wind quite well. He can also use water when he summons Gamahero(? the younger toad son of gamabunta) as he had done it in combination with Yamato too.So even if he ends up with water- that one won't be a big deal.
About Minato- I don't know - it really doesn't matter if his family was great or not. He had talent, skills, intelligence and was self made in his own way. he is not known because of his family name but his own. Belonging to a good family as well shouldn't be a handicapt. Either way I love his appearances and adding pieces of his personalities to understand him. I want more!
I don't like fillrs much but I liked the anime extention of Oro's character as well. It gave his personality a dimention which was lacking and made more sense about why Jiraiya or Tsunade would ever care for him one bit.
