Re: Chapel Hill Shooting: 3 young Muslims have been killed due to "dispute over parki
The hatred is high in this one
You've no idea what hatred is.
Bring me anyone from west that knows civilian Muslims are 80% victims of Isis? I've had this discussion with western friends, who asked me what I thought about Isis, and they didn't know that.
I'm curious where you got the statistic from - not that I am contesting the point that ISIS is, currently and primarily a threat to muslims.
The problem, however, is that ISIS walks among the very people you pray with. They have multiple training properties throughout the western world. They are funded by quite a few of your religious leaders.
@Aim64C, didn't we already have this terrorism misconception over the PM, which you blatantly ignored when I replied back with long wall of text proving you completely and utterly ignorant? I believe I have. Anything revolving misconstrue about terrorism in Quran or Prophet Muhammad, is ignored since you have ignored my pm reply.
There are things in this world more important than you, boy.
It is also an eventuality that we would meet to discuss the same things outside of private messages.
But just to end this little discussion, I'll leave this chapter of the Quran:
''For you is your religion, and for me is my religion." -Surat Al-Kafirun
I encourage anyone who believes I am full of shit to direct their attention to
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- 'pick up' the book and read it.
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Say, "O disbelievers, I do not worship what you worship. Nor are you worshippers of what I worship. Nor will I be a worshipper of what you worship. Nor will you be worshippers of what I worship. For you is your religion, and for me is my religion."
That's all of Surat 109.
This is a command of what to say to non-believers.
Let's look to more substantive chapters.
2:256 There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong. So whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold with no break in it. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing.
2:257 Allah is the ally of those who believe. He brings them out from darknesses into the light. And those who disbelieve - their allies are Taghut. They take them out of the light into darknesses. Those are the companions of the Fire; they will abide eternally therein.
2:278 O you who have believed, fear Allah and give up what remains [due to you] of interest, if you should be believers.
2:279 And if you do not, then be informed of a war [against you] from Allah and His Messenger. But if you repent, you may have your principal - [thus] you do no wrong, nor are you wronged.
4:51 Have you not seen those who were given a portion of the Scripture, who believe in superstition and false objects of worship and say about the disbelievers, "These are better guided than the believers as to the way"?
4:52 Those are the ones whom Allah has cursed; and he whom Allah curses - never will you find for him a helper.
4:53 Or have they a share of dominion? Then [if that were so], they would not give the people [even as much as] the speck on a date seed.
4:54 Or do they envy people for what Allah has given them of His bounty? But we had already given the family of Abraham the Scripture and wisdom and conferred upon them a great kingdom.
4:55 And some among them believed in it, and some among them were averse to it. And sufficient is Hell as a blaze.
4:56 Indeed, those who disbelieve in Our verses - We will drive them into a Fire. Every time their skins are roasted through We will replace them with other skins so they may taste the punishment. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted in Might and Wise.
4:60 Have you not seen those who claim to have believed in what was revealed to you, [O Muhammad], and what was revealed before you? They wish to refer legislation to Taghut, while they were commanded to reject it; and Satan wishes to lead them far astray.
4:61 And when it is said to them, "Come to what Allah has revealed and to the Messenger," you see the hypocrites turning away from you in aversion.
4:62 So how [will it be] when disaster strikes them because of what their hands have put forth and then they come to you swearing by Allah , "We intended nothing but good conduct and accommodation."
4:63 Those are the ones of whom Allah knows what is in their hearts, so turn away from them but admonish them and speak to them a far-reaching word.
4:71 O you who have believed, take your precaution and [either] go forth in companies or go forth all together.
4:72 And indeed, there is among you he who lingers behind; and if disaster strikes you, he says, " Allah has favored me in that I was not present with them."
4:73 But if bounty comes to you from Allah , he will surely say, as if there had never been between you and him any affection. "Oh, I wish I had been with them so I could have attained a great attainment."
4:74 So let those fight in the cause of Allah who sell the life of this world for the Hereafter. And he who fights in the cause of Allah and is killed or achieves victory - We will bestow upon him a great reward.
4:77 Have you not seen those who were told, "Restrain your hands [from fighting] and establish prayer and give zakah"? But then when fighting was ordained for them, at once a party of them feared men as they fear Allah or with [even] greater fear. They said, "Our Lord, why have You decreed upon us fighting? If only You had postponed [it for] us for a short time." Say, The enjoyment of this world is little, and the Hereafter is better for he who fears Allah . And injustice will not be done to you, [even] as much as a thread [inside a date seed]."
4:78 Wherever you may be, death will overtake you, even if you should be within towers of lofty construction. But if good comes to them, they say, "This is from Allah "; and if evil befalls them, they say, "This is from you."
Say, "All [things] are from Allah ." So what is [the matter] with those people that they can hardly understand any statement?
4:79 What comes to you of good is from Allah ,
but what comes to you of evil, [O man], is from yourself. And We have sent you, [O Muhammad], to the people as a messenger, and sufficient is Allah as Witness.
[ ? ]
4:82 Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an? If it had been from [any] other than Allah , they would have found within it much contradiction.
[ lol ]
4:88 What is [the matter] with you [that you are] two groups concerning the hypocrites, while Allah has made them fall back [into error and disbelief] for what they earned. Do you wish to guide those whom Allah has sent astray? And he whom Allah sends astray - never will you find for him a way [of guidance].
4:89 They wish you would disbelieve as they disbelieved so you would be alike. So do not take from among them allies until they emigrate for the cause of Allah . But if they turn away, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them and take not from among them any ally or helper.
4:90 Except for those who take refuge with a people between yourselves and whom is a treaty or those who come to you, their hearts strained at [the prospect of] fighting you or fighting their own people. And if Allah had willed, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you. So if they remove themselves from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not made for you a cause [for fighting] against them.
4:91 You will find others who wish to obtain security from you and [to] obtain security from their people. Every time they are returned to [the influence of] disbelief, they fall back into it. So if they do not withdraw from you or offer you peace or restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you overtake them. And those - We have made for you against them a clear authorization.
4:92 And never is it for a believer to kill a believer except by mistake. And whoever kills a believer by mistake - then the freeing of a believing slave and a compensation payment presented to the deceased's family [is required] unless they give [up their right as] charity. But if the deceased was from a people at war with you and he was a believer - then [only] the freeing of a believing slave; and if he was from a people with whom you have a treaty - then a compensation payment presented to his family and the freeing of a believing slave. And whoever does not find [one or cannot afford to buy one] - then [instead], a fast for two months consecutively, [seeking] acceptance of repentance from Allah . And Allah is ever Knowing and Wise.
4:93 But whoever kills a believer intentionally - his recompense is Hell, wherein he will abide eternally, and Allah has become angry with him and has cursed him and has prepared for him a great punishment.
4:94 O you who have believed, when you go forth [to fight] in the cause of Allah , investigate; and do not say to one who gives you [a greeting of] peace "You are not a believer," aspiring for the goods of worldly life; for with Allah are many acquisitions. You [yourselves] were like that before; then Allah conferred His favor upon you, so investigate. Indeed Allah is ever, with what you do, Acquainted.
4:95 Not equal are those believers remaining [at home] - other than the disabled - and the mujahideen, [who strive and fight] in the cause of Allah with their wealth and their lives. Allah has preferred the mujahideen through their wealth and their lives over those who remain [behind], by degrees. And to both Allah has promised the best [reward]. But Allah has preferred the mujahideen over those who remain [behind] with a great reward -
4:104 And do not weaken in pursuit of the enemy. If you should be suffering - so are they suffering as you are suffering, but you expect from Allah that which they expect not. And Allah is ever Knowing and Wise.
4:105 Indeed, We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth so you may judge between the people by that which Allah has shown you. And do not be for the deceitful an advocate.
4:139 Those who take disbelievers as allies instead of the believers. Do they seek with them honor [through power]? But indeed, honor belongs to Allah entirely.
4:140 And it has already come down to you in the Book that when you hear the verses of Allah [recited], they are denied [by them] and ridiculed; so do not sit with them until they enter into another conversation. Indeed, you would then be like them. Indeed Allah will gather the hypocrites and disbelievers in Hell all together -
4:141 Those who wait [and watch] you. Then if you gain a victory from Allah , they say, "Were we not with you?" But if the disbelievers have a success, they say [to them], "Did we not gain the advantage over you, but we protected you from the believers?" Allah will judge between [all of] you on the Day of Resurrection, and never will Allah give the disbelievers over the believers a way [to overcome them].
4:142 Indeed, the hypocrites [think to] deceive Allah , but He is deceiving them. And when they stand for prayer, they stand lazily, showing [themselves to] the people and not remembering Allah except a little,
4:144 O you who have believed, do not take the disbelievers as allies instead of the believers. Do you wish to give Allah against yourselves a clear case?
4:159 And there is none from the People of the Scripture but that he will surely believe in Jesus before his death. And on the Day of Resurrection he will be against them a witness.
4:163 Indeed, We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], as We revealed to Noah and the prophets after him. And we revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, the Descendants, Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and Solomon, and to David We gave the book [of Psalms].
4:170 O Mankind, the Messenger has come to you with the truth from your Lord, so believe; it is better for you. But if you disbelieve - then indeed, to Allah belongs whatever is in the heavens and earth. And ever is Allah Knowing and Wise.
4:171 O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs.
[ So... this is Muhammad-Care ... if you like your religion, you can keep your religion ... but you have to pass Sharia law to find out what is in Sharia law. ]
Oh, but we aren't done.
That was one of the more peaceful chapters (and I included much of it - though most of it I excluded was for brevity - it's on the website if anyone believes I'm deliberately trying to obscure some kind of argument-destroying verse).
Now we get to the most fun chapter of all.
Surat At-Tawbah (Nine for those of us who like chapters numbered)
9:1 [This is a declaration of] disassociation, from Allah and His Messenger, to those with whom you had made a treaty among the polytheists.
[ So, all that talk about peace and treaties in Surat 4? This chapter came later and was therefor abrogated. No more Mr. Nice Muhammad. ]
9:2 So travel freely, [O disbelievers], throughout the land [during] four months but know that you cannot cause failure to Allah and that Allah will disgrace the disbelievers.
9:3 And [it is] an announcement from Allah and His Messenger to the people on the day of the greater pilgrimage that Allah is disassociated from the disbelievers, and [so is] His Messenger. So if you repent, that is best for you; but if you turn away - then know that you will not cause failure to Allah .
And give tidings to those who disbelieve of a painful punishment.
9:4 Excepted are those with whom you made a treaty among the polytheists and then they have not been deficient toward you in anything or supported anyone against you; so complete for them their treaty until their term [has ended]. Indeed, Allah loves the righteous [who fear Him].
[ So... Treaties are okay only if the people have never done anything considered offensive to Islam... Sorry, Charlie. Treaties aren't an option. ]
9:5 And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.
9:6 And if any one of the polytheists seeks your protection, then grant him protection so that he may hear the words of Allah . Then deliver him to his place of safety. That is because they are a people who do not know.
9:7 How can there be for the polytheists a treaty in the sight of Allah and with His Messenger, except for those with whom you made a treaty at al-Masjid al-Haram? So as long as they are upright toward you, be upright toward them. Indeed, Allah loves the righteous [who fear Him].
9:8 How [can there be a treaty] while, if they gain dominance over you, they do not observe concerning you any pact of kinship or covenant of protection? They satisfy you with their mouths, but their hearts refuse [compliance], and most of them are defiantly disobedient.
9:9 They have exchanged the signs of Allah for a small price and averted [people] from His way. Indeed, it was evil that they were doing.
9:10 They do not observe toward a believer any pact of kinship or covenant of protection. And it is they who are the transgressors.
[ So, what is going on, here, is that Muhammad is declaring non-Muslim anyone who has taken a treaty with non-muslims who do not sanctify Islam as a Muslim would - IE - defiantly disobedient. ]
9:11 But if they repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, then they are your brothers in religion; and We detail the verses for a people who know.
9:12 And if they break their oaths after their treaty and defame your religion, then fight the leaders of disbelief, for indeed, there are no oaths [sacred] to them; [fight them that] they might cease.
9:13 Would you not fight a people who broke their oaths and determined to expel the Messenger, and they had begun [the attack upon] you the first time? Do you fear them? But Allah has more right that you should fear Him, if you are [truly] believers.
9:14 Fight them; Allah will punish them by your hands and will disgrace them and give you victory over them and satisfy the breasts of a believing people
[ From a Qu'ranic law standpoint - this is Allah saying that his described situations of punishment are now acceptable for Muslims to carry out. IE - where it was once "And Allah shall" or "We shall" (from the context of angels) - Muslims are authorized to dispense the punishment that is revealed within the Qu'ran as being Allah's punishment. ]
9:15 And remove the fury in the believers' hearts. And Allah turns in forgiveness to whom He wills; and Allah is Knowing and Wise.
9:16 Do you think that you will be left [as you are] while Allah has not yet made evident those among you who strive [for His cause] and do not take other than Allah , His Messenger and the believers as intimates? And Allah is Acquainted with what you do.
[ Another condemnation of those who become familiar with non-muslims. ]
9:17 It is not for the polytheists to maintain the mosques of Allah [while] witnessing against themselves with disbelief. [For] those, their deeds have become worthless, and in the Fire they will abide eternally.
9:18 The mosques of Allah are only to be maintained by those who believe in Allah and the Last Day and establish prayer and give zakah and do not fear except Allah , for it is expected that those will be of the [rightly] guided.
9:23 O you who have believed, do not take your fathers or your brothers as allies if they have preferred disbelief over belief. And whoever does so among you - then it is those who are the wrongdoers.
9:24 Say, [O Muhammad], "If your fathers, your sons, your brothers, your wives, your relatives, wealth which you have obtained, commerce wherein you fear decline, and dwellings with which you are pleased are more beloved to you than Allah and His Messenger and jihad in His cause, then wait until Allah executes His command. And Allah does not guide the defiantly disobedient people."
9:25 Allah has already given you victory in many regions and [even] on the day of Hunayn, when your great number pleased you, but it did not avail you at all, and the earth was confining for you with its vastness; then you turned back, fleeing.
9:26 Then Allah sent down His tranquillity upon His Messenger and upon the believers and sent down soldiers angels whom you did not see and punished those who disbelieved. And that is the recompense of the disbelievers.
9:28 O you who have believed, indeed the polytheists are unclean, so let them not approach al-Masjid al-Haram after this, their [final] year. And if you fear privation, Allah will enrich you from His bounty if He wills. Indeed, Allah is Knowing and Wise.
9:29 Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.
9:30 The Jews say, "Ezra is the son of Allah "; and the Christians say, "The Messiah is the son of Allah ." That is their statement from their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved [before them]. May Allah destroy them; how are they deluded?
[ So... Yeah... I can't have my religion. ]
9:31 They have taken their scholars and monks as lords besides Allah , and [also] the Messiah, the son of Mary. And they were not commanded except to worship one God; there is no deity except Him. Exalted is He above whatever they associate with Him.
9:32 They want to extinguish the light of Allah with their mouths, but Allah refuses except to perfect His light, although the disbelievers dislike it.
9:33 It is He who has sent His Messenger with guidance and the religion of truth to manifest it over all religion, although they who associate others with Allah dislike it.
What that means is Christians, Jews or non-believers live by their religion or culture, while Muslim lives his/her own. And neither of the side can attack the other one, unless the former attacked the latter.
Yeah.
The Qu'ran just answered that one for you.
Tell the disbelievers they can have their religion.
But know that Islam's purpose is to manifest over all religion, no matter how much they dislike it afterward.
The only way any rational human being would subscribe to the Qu'ran is if he/she starts with the preconceived notion that Muhammad was a prophet and are unwilling to consider any alternative.
Which is why ISIS is primarily a threat to the middle east, at the moment, and kills so many "muslims."
Rational people, in the course of daily life, will not naturally adhere to the Qu'ran. Therefor, they will gradually stray from what is prescribed within the Qu'ran - particularly if one is not attentive to the various abrogations and more obscure details. Just because they 'have remembered' it doesn't mean they are constantly thinking about how it applies to what they are doing.
ISIS is a fundamental approach. It is precisely the Islam that Muhammad practiced with some modern twists. The Qu'ran gives clear instruction that there will be those who are 'not muslim enough' (more in Surat 8, if I remember correctly - though there were allusions to it within what I quoted) and that they are non-muslim ( 'those who have turned from belief' ) - particularly those who have formed treaties with those who do not hold Islam sacred (which is why ISIS has clearly voiced its displeasure with Saudi Arabia).
As you can see - Islam makes it very clear what other religions are.
In the case of Judaism and Christianity - they are seen as perversions of Islam. Muhammad makes the claim that Jesus, Joseph, Moses, and most major figures from the Judeo-Christian scriptures were Muslim and that this has been concealed by the priestly hierarchy.
Polytheists and religions not cased are just seen as complete ignorance.
Do all muslims see it that way? Not necessarily.
However, the reality is that groups like ISIS are common within Islamic sectors of the world. If you are raised to believe in a messenger and the book of his revelations ... and the book is chock full of entire chapters filled with what I quoted above... it is no radical step on your part to realize that there are many who are not taking it seriously enough and to follow its command to fight those who do not believe.
Unless and until the "moderates" stand up and strike down fundamentalism each time it arises - the end result for non-muslims is the same. Someone will show up at their doorstep and try to force them to convert. It is an eventuality.
Of course - the scriptural grounds upon which to rebuke the "radicals" simply doesn't exist within Islam. It would require a reformation of scripture and teachings to make it happen.
But how do you do that when the Qu'ran is timeless, complete, explains all things, etc? (It is horribly incomplete and obviously fragmented as hell, not to mention disjointed and leaping from random topic to random topic) Worse - it would require a new prophet in order to initiate reform - and getting any kind of acceptance of that will be impossible, since you would have to almost completely rewrite all of the Qu'ran to get anything other than pathological insanity. Then justify it with: "The LAST timeless and complete book that has been protected by Allah got some things wrong... but trust me... totally good this time..."
Islamic scripture, therefor, is frozen and reform beyond it is effectively impossible.
You're more than free to disagree with me - but the pattern of behavior in Islam is firmly against your position.
Iraq used to be Christian back in the 500s.
There was an empire called "Persia."
The Turks were Christian under the Byzantine Empire (but they've always been *******s).
Bosnia consists of Muslim Serbs, as is Kosovo.
Chechnya is Muslim Russians.
Pakistan is Muslim Indians.
It is the general pattern that Islam is so tolerant of other religions that nations must cede territory and erect borders to protect their people from the onslaught of interfaith outreach programs.
But, time will tell.
