Chapel Hill Shooting: 3 young Muslims have been killed due to "dispute over parking"

Aim64C

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Re: Chapel Hill Shooting: 3 young Muslims have been killed due to "dispute over parki

It really is amazing when only dicussions related to islam turns out like this, thhis thread started out as a normal news thread reporting the killing of three muslims by an atheist. But I wonder, why has the the lot of non-muslims. Take it upon themselves to discriminate Islam without really knowing it?
I'm not going to say much for my Qur'an has taught me "for you your religion and for me my religion"


They kept their religion, but not their life.

Context.

It's important.
 

Babadook

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Re: Chapel Hill Shooting: 3 young Muslims have been killed due to "dispute over parki

When I read, I don't see words. I don't really know how to describe it. The book and the action of turning pages disappears and I'm in the middle of whatever is going on.
Of course I'm also trying to place myself in the story: and that's why I oftn stop to think about what I would do in the place of the character, what are his/her motives, or, when it's not fine literature but, let's say, a scientific book/journal, of how can I fit the new information into my worldview. Sometimes I notice myslf having read only one page or even less in half an hour- because I was thinking about what I had read.

But back to the main pont: unless one knows speedreading, it’s not possible ot read half the Quran in an hour.



"Peaceful" and "not expressly violent" are not the same thing.



This is a cultural distinction and why I say that westerners have to check their concept of morality at the door when it comes to comprehending the Middle East and people who have been raised in the Middle East.



Islam is, primarily, as you state, a set of laws and consequences for violating those laws. This is especially the case with the Qu'ran. There are laws, consequences, and directives.



This is not the standard of scripture throughout the rest of the world and other religions.



Part of the reason for Islam's abysmal scholarly state is the fact that Islam started from a merchant (Muhammad) whose wife convinced him he was a prophet (albeit, illiterate - he couldn't read or write - not that there was much of a standard for written Arabic at the time to begin with). After she died, most of his supporters came not from the educated classes, but from the various destitute people of society. Very few could read or write, and very little of what Muhammad said was ever written down, and very little of what he did was described in a scholarly narrative.



The Hadith, collections of the deeds of Muhammad, are written as such: "So-and-So has it on Whats-his-name's authority that Muhammad said this: ... " They are not written from a structured narrative.



The attempt was made to make the Qu'ran a more coherent narrative - but the reality is that the whole damned thing is a disjointed read because of the fact that it is literally a composite of Muhammad's surviving companions who learned to recite the same things Muhammad was saying... most of them died in war attempting to conquer the Arabian Peninsula which was Muhammad's objective.



This is all in accordance with traditional Muslim history.



Discrepancies occur after this. Traditional history is that all of this was compiled into a codex that was then ordered into one Qu'ran under Uthman. After this single written account was resolved from the codex, all other written accounts were burned (record destruction is always a good sign). From this Uthmanic Qu'ran, four qu'rans were made and sent out to four locations and all Qu'rans can supposedly trace their lineage back to one of these four books - two of which are claimed to still exist.



Except the books that are held as examples are not Uthmanic qu'rans. They are written in script that didn't exist in the time of Uthman (and not for a hundred years afterward) and contain multiple irregularities between the two of them (what little is available for review). Worse, they are incomplete compared to modern Qu'rans - which suggests that, if these were considered complete at the time (unlikely), that there were substantial revisions being made the the content of the Qu'ran hundreds of years after Muhammad's life.



Factor in that Muhammad's name doesn't even appear in Arabia until Abd Al-Malik foisted it upon the Arab peninsula in the form of currency and inscriptions, everywhere.... One gets the indication that a lot of shenanigans went on and that the true history can, perhaps, never be known.



Regardless, this is not how scripture works in other environments.



Scriptural records are often attributed to one author or a lineage of master-disciple relationships. They are single narratives that approximate to a historical account of a figure's teachings, noteworthy events/accomplishments, and their general impact on society.



The whole of the scripture is viewed through this lens. While there are specific places where commands are being issued, this is always present in its historical context. Further, because the narrative will even span generations, it becomes clear that the commands placed upon one generation are not necessarily intended for a subsequent generation.



This is compounded even further when other religions collect the scriptures - such is the case with the Bible and Torah. Multiple narratives spanning many generations and focused on telling a story of a people's relationship with and understanding of the divine. The Jews that were ordered to fight the Philistines were later instructed by Jesus to not fight the Romans and to not hold others as being beneath helping (since the Jews did like to hold themselves superior to non-Jews; there are a few places where he is recorded as deviating from this - but it's not common).



There are very few places where God or Jesus are speaking directly to 'the reader.' They are speaking to each other within the historical context. There are very few "o you who believe" type statements that attempt to define what the believer should believe or do. That is largely left to be read out of the situation/conflict presented in the narrative.



There are not very many "enduring" commands in the Bible - commands that reach beyond their historical or narrative context.



This is not the case in Islam, where most of the commands are enduring and only loosely contingent on the narrative context (where there is any).



Ibn Kathir puts it this way:



Ibn Kathir, The Battles of the Prophet, pp. 183-4—Allah, Most High, ordered the believers to prohibit the disbelievers from entering or coming near the sacred Mosque. On that, Quraish thought that this would reduce their profits from trade. Therefore, Allah, Most High, compensated them and ordered them to fight the people of the Book until they embrace Islam or pay the Jizyah. Allah says, “O ye who believe! Truly the pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the sacred Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise. Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.” Therefore, the Messenger of Allah decided to fight the Romans in order to call them to Islam.



Tafsir Ibn Kathir (on Qur’an 9:30)—Fighting the Jews and Christians is legislated because they are idolaters and disbelievers. Allah the Exalted encourages the believers to fight the polytheists, disbelieving Jews and Christians, who uttered this terrible statement and utter lies against Allah, the Exalted. As for the Jews, they claimed that Uzayr was the son of God, Allah is free of what they attribute to Him. As for the misguidance of Christians over Isa, it is obvious.



You can see some other interesting commentary here:







(and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in each and every ambush), do not wait until you find them. Rather, seek and besiege them in their areas and forts, gather intelligence about them in the various roads and fairways so that what is made wide looks ever smaller to them. This way, they will have no choice, but to die or embrace Islam,



(But if they repent and perform the Salah, and give the Zakah, then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.) Abu Bakr As-Siddiq used this and other honorable Ayat as proof for fighting those who refrained from paying the Zakah. These Ayat allowed fighting people unless, and until, they embrace Islam and implement its rulings and obligations. Allah mentioned the most important aspects of Islam here, including what is less important. Surely, the highest elements of Islam after the Two Testimonials, are the prayer, which is the right of Allah, the Exalted and Ever High, then the Zakah, which benefits the poor and needy. These are the most honorable acts that creatures perform, and this is why Allah often mentions the prayer and Zakah together. In the Two Sahihs, it is recorded that Ibn `Umar said that the Messenger of Allah said,



(I have been commanded to fight the people until they testify that there is no deity worthy of worship except Allah and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, establish the prayer and pay the Zakah.) This honorable Ayah (9:5) was called the Ayah of the Sword, about which Ad-Dahhak bin Muzahim said, "It abrogated every agreement of peace between the Prophet and any idolator, every treaty, and every term.'' Al-`Awfi said that Ibn `Abbas commented: "No idolator had any more treaty or promise of safety ever since Surah Bara'ah was revealed. The four months, in addition to, all peace treaties conducted before Bara'ah was revealed and announced had ended by the tenth of the month of Rabi` Al-Akhir.''



This is Ibn Kathir, - one of the most revered Muslim scholars who references the works and interpretations of scholars before him.



He could be thought of as the Muslim version of the Apostle Paul (well, at least for the Sunnis...)



My interpretation of the Qu'ran and its verses are very much in agreement with classic Muslim theology.



It just doesn't fit the narrative of "multiculturalism" that is illogically seen as being something every single human being and teaching ever strives for.
I'll just ignore the first half of your post, as I deem it is irrelevant in analyzing surat 9. But thanks for the lecture I guess? I'm a muslim though so I think you probably know my convictions regarding the origins of the Quran.



As for the rest, I don't see what are you trying to prove here? Some of the treaties were disassociated because the 'polytheists' broke their oaths- they are given a 4 months grace period. Other treaties are still to be observed, unless the 'polytheists' support the enemies of muslims. Therefore it is not an imminent and universal disassociation of all treaties in the first place. And nowhere does it say that muslims can't make treaties in the future. I think is also goes without saying that muslims didn't have treaties with all the people(s) in the world, so it just further proves that it is not a universal command to fight all kinds of infidels- only the ones that break/broke their treaties and/or support the enemies of muslims.



"This honorable Ayah (9:5) was called the Ayah of the Sword, about which Ad-Dahhak bin Muzahim said, "It abrogated every agreement of peace between the Prophet and any idolator, every treaty, and every term.'' Al-`Awfi said that Ibn `Abbas commented: "No idolator had any more treaty or promise of safety ever since Surah Bara'ah was revealed."

^ As you can see, this ayat is said to have abrogated treaties between the Prophet and idolators, so this whole thing talks only about the treaties of that specific time- the Prophet (pbuh) didn't have treaties with all the nations in the world, or with the people who'd live in the future. How can you disassociate a treaty that doesn't even exist? So if you are trying to say that muslims should continuously fight non muslims in all times, that's just crazy. It talks about certain treaties to begin with. Now you'll just probably try to argue that the Quran is universal- sure, it is for all times, but then, wouldn't it mean that the peaceful verses are universal as well? 'Oh no, the peaceful verses are clearly abrogated'. How so? These verses talk about the situation when the infidels broke their oaths and attacked muslims- obviously not all the infidels in Mohamed's time broke their oaths and attacked muslims- so why shouldn't muslims be peaceful towards them? It is said in this very same context that as long as the infidels keep their treaties, muslims should be upright too and keep the treaty. That is what is universal: those who break the treaty and attack muslims, are to be killed out of self defense, but those who do not break their oaths and do not fight muslims, are to be treated uprightly. This is all in harmony with other parts of the Quran, f.e surat 60 verse 8, that says:



"Allah does not forbid you from those who do not fight you because of religion and do not expel you from your homes - from being righteous toward them and acting justly toward them. Indeed, Allah loves those who act justly."



The whole inner logic of the Quran dictates that muslims shall fight only those who fight them. It is said that if the infidels don't fight muslims, then their treaties shall be observed, and muslims should be upright towards them.

Abrogation of verses is to be used when verses seem to contradict each other: which is not the case here. There is no contradiction. The 9th surat is in harmony with other surat. Certain verses talk about fighting (disposition), other verses specify the circumstances (hypothesis). The Quran here is universal only in the sense that whenever those circumstances are met (= infidels break their oaths and attack muslims. ), then - and onyl then- shall muslism fight back (=disposition). What you are trying to do here is a rhetoric trick: you want to generalize only the disposition- not the whole norm. You ignore the hypothesis. It is certain treaties that were abrogated: not the verses that include the hypothesis. Your quoting Ibn Kathir doesn’t even support your claims, it only makes the impression of authority you’ve granted yourself.

Anyway, the second part of that quote seems quite contradictory: the Quran itself grants a promise of safety to those who ask for protection.

In any case, if you’ll still post the same things about those verses having been abrogated, despite I’ve just explained that can’t be the case: well, I just won’t bother replying and running in the same circles again. I’ll just leave you thinking whatever you wish.
 
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