[Discussion] Because luffy and sanji decided to fight

chopstickchakra

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You have no feeling for the story, and to already call an outside factor a cheap plot shield is bullshit. Because you know that it could full well be the bomb that will grant them an escape route. That bomb has been in play for 3 arcs to come in and now say that it would be cheap is just you covering yourself because you went all in on a Luffy victory when he faced a yonkou, while there were plenty of people who said from the start he isn't going to win this.

And what a boring load of bullshit would One Piece be if the main character won every fight, blegh. I;m glad Fairy Tail is almost over, can't stand the predictability.

Also like I said in another thread. If Luffy gets away alive with Sanji and the poneglyph he technically hasn't lost. He has the moral victory and Big News Morgan will spread the news around the world. Even though he didn't win the fight.

But please be my guest and tell me how 5 Vinsmokes, Sanji and Luffy will fight everyone there and win.
The bomb wouldn't be an outside factor since it's directly connected to this incident, that would make it a factor. We've already established the box exploding and hurting BM would be a win for Luffy's sie so why would I try to downplay it that doesn't even make sense. An outside factor is something not connected to this incident coming in to create an opening like Marines or another pirate crew etc.

Boring bullshit? Yet how many villains has Luffy not ended up beating by the end of their arc? He may lose some fights during the arcs like Croc and Enel etc. but he always ends up beating the big bad by the end(bar MF where he wasn't the focus and there was no clear cut Big Bad final villain) Even when villains come back they've already been beaten like Buggy and Bellamy. Who has Luffy clashed with(presented as a final boss of an arc) not beaten only to fight later so far? By trying to insult me and what you insult what's been laid already in OP.
 

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The bomb wouldn't be an outside factor since it's directly connected to this incident, that would make it a factor. We've already established the box exploding and hurting BM would be a win for Luffy's sie so why would I try to downplay it that doesn't even make sense. An outside factor is something not connected to this incident coming in to create an opening like Marines or another pirate crew etc.

Boring bullshit? Yet how many villains has Luffy not ended up beating by the end of their arc? He may lose some fights during the arcs like Croc and Enel etc. but he always ends up beating the big bad by the end(bar MF where he wasn't the focus and there was no clear cut Big Bad final villain) Even when villains come back they've already been beaten like Buggy and Bellamy. Who has Luffy clashed with(presented as a final boss of an arc) not beaten only to fight later so far? By trying to insult me and what you insult what's been laid already in OP.
It's funny that you see that as an insult, when I say that you have no feeling for the story. After reading last chapter I see that more as a fact. If you think Luffy would pull out a win out of the bag now. There are so many indicators that you just choose to ignore.

But as I said before please be my guest and tell me how 5 Vinsmokes, Sanji and Luffy will fight everyone there and win. DO IT !

You're just covering your ass because you underestimated the power of a yonkou. But give me a line-up of who fights who and who will win. You're talking in the past tense mate. As for that matter I gave you those examples already where Luffy had multiple arcs where he never beat the final villain but escaped. So I'm not sure if you're just pretending you've forgotten it because it's convenient for your argument or if you actually forgot.
 

chopstickchakra

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It's funny that you see that as an insult, when I say that you have no feeling for the story. After reading last chapter I see that more as a fact. If you think Luffy would pull out a win out of the bag now. There are so many indicators that you just choose to ignore.

But as I said before please be my guest and tell me how 5 Vinsmokes, Sanji and Luffy will fight everyone there and win. DO IT !

You're just covering your ass because you underestimated the power of a yonkou. But give me a line-up of who fights who and who will win. You're talking in the past tense mate. As for that matter I gave you those examples already where Luffy had multiple arcs where he never beat the final villain but escaped. So I'm not sure if you're just pretending you've forgotten it because it's convenient for your argument or if you actually forgot.
There's indicators each way. For; BM's crew's been being chipped away and already down 2 of their best fighters after BM, Sanji & Luffy have committed to the fight by intercepting BM directly and Luffy doesn't have a history of leaving a fight often, the author had the mc make a direct statement after his time skip power boost period implying he won't lose from now on. Against; Outnumbered, Yonko's reputation. I just think an escape seems unlikely now without some outside factor or the Tamatebako causing a distraction and if there's no more escape then Luffy won't lose because it wouldn't work for the story.

I'm not under rating the Yonko though I'm just betting on the MC since this is a manga. If this were a real life scenario he wouldn't be able to overcome the gap but since he is the MC in a manga I'm thinking it's more likely he'll win in a scenario like this. If it were any other crew in the manga they wouldn't be able to pull this off, it's only because he's the MC I say he'll win in a fight against her right now.

Do it, what are you a Nike commercial? We both know no matter what or how many scenarios I could present you'd deny any possibility of them anyway plus I'm not Oda so anything I could guess isn't a sure thing.

But since the Vinsmokes are set to fight now we can look back and see some clear set ups. Smoothie will fight Reiju and I'm sure you'll say well Smoothie just wrung out the poison so no threat but that's not all Reiju will have.

Sanji showed he could be a good match for Katakuri being able to dodge a fast attack from someone with future telling ob haki and surprised him with his speed and Ichiji was shown in a little better light than Sanji so Ichiji will likely occupy Katakuri assuming he has haki or seastone equip. Niji and Yonji can help Ichiji and Reiju leaving Judge to help Sanji and Luffy when needed or to take care of the rank and file since Ichiji handled Perospero well Judge should do better being the leader plus BM's scream/haki took care of a good chunk of them and Luffy could do like he did at FI.

The sweet commanders and BM are the real risk and with Caesar not able to fly out right now and Luffy & Sanji fighting the others should come out of Capone too.

I remember you posting some but I don't remember the specific examples, I remember some of them weren't actual cases where there was a final villain scenario like with BM though, there's been a lot of posts made lately I don't remember everything we've all said to each other, I told you I got a bad memory. I can't find it do you remember what thread it was?
 
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Love Cook

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There's indicators each way. For; BM's crew's been being chipped away and already down 2 of their best fighters after BM, Sanji & Luffy have committed to the fight by intercepting BM directly and Luffy doesn't have a history of leaving a fight often, the author had the mc make a direct statement after his time skip power boost period implying he won't lose from now on. Against; Outnumbered, Yonko's reputation. I just think an escape seems unlikely now without some outside factor or the Tamatebako causing a distraction and if there's no more escape then Luffy won't lose because it wouldn't work for the story.

I'm not under rating the Yonko though I'm just betting on the MC since this is a manga. If this were a real life scenario he wouldn't be able to overcome the gap but since he is the MC in a manga I'm thinking it's more likely he'll win in a scenario like this. If it were any other crew in the manga they wouldn't be able to pull this off, it's only because he's the MC I say he'll win in a fight against her right now.

Do it, what are you a Nike commercial? We both know no matter what or how many scenarios I could present you'd deny any possibility of them anyway plus I'm not Oda so anything I could guess isn't a sure thing.

But since the Vinsmokes are set to fight now we can look back and see some clear set ups. Smoothie will fight Reiju and I'm sure you'll say well Smoothie just wrung out the poison so no threat but that's not all Reiju will have.

Sanji showed he could be a good match for Katakuri being able to dodge a fast attack from someone with future telling ob haki and surprised him with his speed and Ichiji was shown in a little better light than Sanji so Ichiji will likely occupy Katakuri assuming he has haki or seastone equip. Niji and Yonji can help Ichiji and Reiju leaving Judge to help Sanji and Luffy when needed or to take care of the rank and file since Ichiji handled Perospero well Judge should do better being the leader plus BM's scream/haki took care of a good chunk of them and Luffy could do like he did at FI.

The sweet commanders and BM are the real risk and with Caesar not able to fly out right now and Luffy & Sanji fighting the others should come out of Capone too.

I remember you posting some but I don't remember the specific examples, I remember some of them weren't actual cases where there was a final villain scenario like with BM though, there's been a lot of posts made lately I don't remember everything we've all said to each other, I told you I got a bad memory. I can't find it do you remember what thread it was?
We were talking about escape arcs and how Luffy didn't beat the final villain when he was escaping. You said back then this is not an escape arc. Well it certainly looks like one now.

And you keep talking about losing but we've already established that the goal on Whole Cake Island was established by Sanji when he made his 3 objectives in order to return to the crew. 1) Apologize to Luffy, 2) Save Zeff 3) Save the Vinsmokes. On which Luffy punched him in the face and said to get over it, already getting over the first obstacle, and claiming to wreck the wedding. In the previous chapter the Vinsmokes were saved by Sanji and in the current chapter Judge promised to stay away from Zeff. Meaning that all the objectives got cleared. They have no problem to run anymore.

When Luffy was trapped in the book he said he would kick Big Mom's ass all over the New World. On Fishman Island he said I will beat you in the New World. That is a pretty interesting distinction that Oda doesn't make very often. Meaning that the door is open for Oda to have Big Mom beaten on Elbaf or at Wano, who knows.

Like I said before it also wouldn't be a loss if Luffy escaped with Sanji, the poneglyph and his life. Because that would be a moral win, and everybody would hear about it in the New World thanks to the underground bosses who are present there like Morgan.

And finally your fight set ups are already 2 on 1 for most fights while there are so many people to fight. Big Mom, Dogtooth, Smoothie are the biggest threats. But there are still Pudding, Amande, Mont d'or, Galette, Opera, Brulee, Perospero, Compote, Daifuku and Oven. When Luffy was fighting the enraged army they had no problem teaming up and he was nowhere, he was trapped in a whirlpool of Devil fruit abilities. Then there are also still Zeus, Prometheus and Napoleon. But for the sake of the argument let's not count them as individual fighters even when they can fight on their own, but let's see them as weapons.

People who we haven't seen at the wedding but who are on the island are Counter, Cadenza, Cabaletta and most importantly Tamago or Niwatori as he is known now. When will Pedro get his revenge against him, also Pedro was pushed into making a self sacrifice because Tamago's final form was too strong. Another indicator that he isn't ready to fight now.

As for the CoC, everyone who didn't get knocked out by Big Mom's scream, why would they get knocked by Luffy's CoC ? When they were fighting on Fishman Island Zoro said relax, it isn't as if were fighting elite navy soldiers. They were fighting untrained rebellions. Despite that Luffy was only able to knock out half of them.

Even if Luffy is able to knock down half of the 'fodder', they're still trained to the point that they even have haki to the extent that they can use it on ranged projectiles as proven by Ceasar.

Also you said Ceasar can't get away, I think this chapter implied he already got away when the Vinsmokes were covering them. That was the whole idea of the escape.

So when you take all this into account, how will Luffy ever win at this point ? This is too much for the main character power to overcome. He fought 11 hours against Cracker alone, how long would it take for him to clear this ?
 

chopstickchakra

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We were talking about escape arcs and how Luffy didn't beat the final villain when he was escaping. You said back then this is not an escape arc. Well it certainly looks like one now.

And you keep talking about losing but we've already established that the goal on Whole Cake Island was established by Sanji when he made his 3 objectives in order to return to the crew. 1) Apologize to Luffy, 2) Save Zeff 3) Save the Vinsmokes. On which Luffy punched him in the face and said to get over it, already getting over the first obstacle, and claiming to wreck the wedding. In the previous chapter the Vinsmokes were saved by Sanji and in the current chapter Judge promised to stay away from Zeff. Meaning that all the objectives got cleared. They have no problem to run anymore.

When Luffy was trapped in the book he said he would kick Big Mom's ass all over the New World. On Fishman Island he said I will beat you in the New World. That is a pretty interesting distinction that Oda doesn't make very often. Meaning that the door is open for Oda to have Big Mom beaten on Elbaf or at Wano, who knows.

Like I said before it also wouldn't be a loss if Luffy escaped with Sanji, the poneglyph and his life. Because that would be a moral win, and everybody would hear about it in the New World thanks to the underground bosses who are present there like Morgan.

And finally your fight set ups are already 2 on 1 for most fights while there are so many people to fight. Big Mom, Dogtooth, Smoothie are the biggest threats. But there are still Pudding, Amande, Mont d'or, Galette, Opera, Brulee, Perospero, Compote, Daifuku and Oven. When Luffy was fighting the enraged army they had no problem teaming up and he was nowhere, he was trapped in a whirlpool of Devil fruit abilities. Then there are also still Zeus, Prometheus and Napoleon. But for the sake of the argument let's not count them as individual fighters even when they can fight on their own, but let's see them as weapons.

People who we haven't seen at the wedding but who are on the island are Counter, Cadenza, Cabaletta and most importantly Tamago or Niwatori as he is known now. When will Pedro get his revenge against him, also Pedro was pushed into making a self sacrifice because Tamago's final form was too strong. Another indicator that he isn't ready to fight now.

As for the CoC, everyone who didn't get knocked out by Big Mom's scream, why would they get knocked by Luffy's CoC ? When they were fighting on Fishman Island Zoro said relax, it isn't as if were fighting elite navy soldiers. They were fighting untrained rebellions. Despite that Luffy was only able to knock out half of them.

Even if Luffy is able to knock down half of the 'fodder', they're still trained to the point that they even have haki to the extent that they can use it on ranged projectiles as proven by Ceasar.

Also you said Ceasar can't get away, I think this chapter implied he already got away when the Vinsmokes were covering them. That was the whole idea of the escape.

So when you take all this into account, how will Luffy ever win at this point ? This is too much for the main character power to overcome. He fought 11 hours against Cracker alone, how long would it take for him to clear this ?
Does it though? Cus' it's kind of looking like a fights about to happen. I remember us talking about it I just don't remember the examples you mentioned I looked for the thread but couldn't find it.

Except they're in the middle of a fight right now and it's a lot harder to run from a fight while both sides are still looking to fight. Just because Sanji's objectives before he could feel ok leaving have been met doesn't mean they won't have to fight their way out of here I mean it's not like they were ever really going to be able to come in here do all this and then sneak away from a Yonko that would downplay their hype more than you claim I do.

He didn't say he'd kick her ass all over the New World he said if you wanna fight I'll fight you right now and that he'd be the one to be PK in the end. Saying I'll kick your ass all over the NW implies he threatened to beat her up on multiple occasions at varying locations and that's not what he promised. Yes the door is open though I've never denied it couldn't just that I don't think that's what will happen.

Pudding's probbably not going to be a threat last we saw with her and Sanji she seemed to be turning. Perospero was handled pretty easily by Ichiji and I'm not sure where the others fall between them. Also that scenario was purely the Vinsmokes and Luffy it's still possible the others come back out and abandon the escape plan.

The ones who weren't may not though they still may since Luffy's Conq. Haki could be above BM's though unlikely. The point about Conq though was you mention the fodder amounts but a big chunk of those numbers could drop so the numbers advantage isn't as poignant when we consider BM took out a bunch of her own and Luffy could do it again or even get a few more.

I'm kind of lost on this point, they're still trained(who's trained BM's underlings?) they have haki to the extent they can use it on ranged projectiles(Is that the rocket? Wasn't that only BM's haki that messed that up? Am I forgetting a scene?) BM's underlings don't have Conq. Haki. Also not really sure how that factors in to being Conq. Haki'd even if some of hers had it it probably couldn't match Luffy's.

About Caesar, I don't think so or else that means Luffy and Sanji would have been left behind and if that were so then how would they escape since victory is impossible? The Vinsmokes shouldn't be able to fly away w/o a distraction so they wouldn't be able to fly Sanji/Luffy away and if BM's crew is so monstorous then they shouldn't be able to hold them off for Sanji to fly Luffy away either.

Who knows how long it might take him but long scale fights are something he either needs to be ready for or able to circumvent with his power seeing as a lot of top tier characters can fight seriously for days on end. I know we've never seen Luffy fight longer than 11 hours straight but it should be something he's capable of doing.
 

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Does it though? Cus' it's kind of looking like a fights about to happen. I remember us talking about it I just don't remember the examples you mentioned I looked for the thread but couldn't find it.

Except they're in the middle of a fight right now and it's a lot harder to run from a fight while both sides are still looking to fight. Just because Sanji's objectives before he could feel ok leaving have been met doesn't mean they won't have to fight their way out of here I mean it's not like they were ever really going to be able to come in here do all this and then sneak away from a Yonko that would downplay their hype more than you claim I do.

He didn't say he'd kick her ass all over the New World he said if you wanna fight I'll fight you right now and that he'd be the one to be PK in the end. Saying I'll kick your ass all over the NW implies he threatened to beat her up on multiple occasions at varying locations and that's not what he promised. Yes the door is open though I've never denied it couldn't just that I don't think that's what will happen.

Pudding's probbably not going to be a threat last we saw with her and Sanji she seemed to be turning. Perospero was handled pretty easily by Ichiji and I'm not sure where the others fall between them. Also that scenario was purely the Vinsmokes and Luffy it's still possible the others come back out and abandon the escape plan.

The ones who weren't may not though they still may since Luffy's Conq. Haki could be above BM's though unlikely. The point about Conq though was you mention the fodder amounts but a big chunk of those numbers could drop so the numbers advantage isn't as poignant when we consider BM took out a bunch of her own and Luffy could do it again or even get a few more.

I'm kind of lost on this point, they're still trained(who's trained BM's underlings?) they have haki to the extent they can use it on ranged projectiles(Is that the rocket? Wasn't that only BM's haki that messed that up? Am I forgetting a scene?) BM's underlings don't have Conq. Haki. Also not really sure how that factors in to being Conq. Haki'd even if some of hers had it it probably couldn't match Luffy's.

About Caesar, I don't think so or else that means Luffy and Sanji would have been left behind and if that were so then how would they escape since victory is impossible? The Vinsmokes shouldn't be able to fly away w/o a distraction so they wouldn't be able to fly Sanji/Luffy away and if BM's crew is so monstorous then they shouldn't be able to hold them off for Sanji to fly Luffy away either.

Who knows how long it might take him but long scale fights are something he either needs to be ready for or able to circumvent with his power seeing as a lot of top tier characters can fight seriously for days on end. I know we've never seen Luffy fight longer than 11 hours straight but it should be something he's capable of doing.
Look I'm getting kind of done with this because you're not reading or skipping things. So I'll keep it short.

Some/most/all of these no names with guns have CoA haki. We were not talking about fodder with CoC haki. Ceasar feared them because they would turn him into a swiss cheese.

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Yes Luffy and Sanji are being left behind, that is the whole point to save everyone in the castle.

Also all the vinsmokes can fly, Sanji has sky walk and Luffy can fly in Gear 4th, so no the Vinsmokes don't have to fly them away.

You still didn't specify what the other 10 strong Big Mom underlings with Devil fruits would do.

My guess is that the bomb will topple the cake on the mountain, or that Judge will sacrifice himself. The Vinsmoke kingdom is still docked to the island so I think he will call in the clones form a giant wall have all the clones self sacrifice with him providing Luffy an escape route.

That would also open up the door for a new leader for the Vinsmoke kingdom who doesn't go on with the weird experiments. Another plot point solved.
 
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