Base Kabuto vs Kisame

[New Dawn]

Dont feel like going through this plus irrelevant to the majority nor mine point here.



Even though feats show Preta being superior, whatever quicker or slower is irrelevant. Kabuto mastered SM so generating nature energy isn't difficult at all.



Post and sig is disgusting, stay logged off.

learn to appreciate art.

 

[KidGamer65]

That doesnt mean anything that states that being in Sage Mode is requirement to activate, nor does it logically make sense for it to be needed for this technique.

No Sage Mode=No Senjutsu Techniques. That's a fact. No logic you try to bring will change that. When there is a panel of anyone sucking Nature Energy straight from the air and then using Senjutsu techniques without actually balancing said chakra and entering Sage Mode, then we can talk. And please don't bring anything like the Curse Mark here.

We also have Myōjinmon having its own DB page which stated to be SM mode tech, dispite already seen manga of Base Hashirama performing it in lower scale.

And Shinsuusenju is stated to be a Senjutsu, yet we've seen Tobi (Zetsu) use it w/o any Senjutsu. Does that mean that he has Senjutsu Chakra? Obviously not. Meaning that Myojinmon was a Base Myojinmon.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

No Sage Mode=No Senjutsu Techniques. That's a fact. No logic you try to bring will change that. When there is a panel of anyone sucking Nature Energy straight from the air and then using Senjutsu techniques without actually balancing said chakra and entering Sage Mode, then we can talk. And please don't bring anything like the Curse Mark here.

I dont think you understood my post. Your claim is that DNA requires senjutsu/entering SM to use its ability. DB states no context that its necessary.

And Shinsuusenju is stated to be a Senjutsu, yet we've seen Tobi (Zetsu) use it w/o any Senjutsu. Does that mean that he has Senjutsu Chakra? Obviously not. Meaning that Myojinmon was a Base Myojinmon.

Thats exactly my point I was making. You can't claim Senjutsu chakra/Going SM is required to make these abilities, same for Kabuto's DNA ability.

 

[KidGamer65]

I dont think you understood my post. Your claim is that DNA requires senjutsu/entering SM to use its ability. DB states no context that its necessary.

Wrong.

Hm. The ninjutsu Kabuto uses to manifest the Sound Five and Orochimaru from his body is a senjutsu / ninjutsu called Denienei (伝異遠影), which I believe is supposed to sound like "DNA." The kanji literally means "tradition strange distant shadow," and could be roughly be interpreted as "the strange shadows passed down over a long time."

Denienei is the Ninjutsu needed for him to use their abilities as it states. It's Senjutsu. Thus no Senjutsu=No Denienei. No Denienei=No Sound 5 and extra Oro abilities for Kabuto.

Thats exactly my point I was making. You can't claim Senjutsu chakra/Going SM is required to make these abilities, same for Kabuto's DNA ability.

Yes, I can, because there is zero evidence that there is a pure Ninjutsu form to the technique. Not all Senjutsu has to have a pure Ninjutsu form.

-Kawazu Naki and Gama Rinsho are Senpo techniques with no normal Ninjutsu form.
-Ma and Pa's Tongue Attacks have no Base form.
-Same goes for Muki Tensei and White Rage, two of Kabuto's moves. Even more reason for me to believe that this ability of his is Senjutsu only.

So no, Base Kabuto cannot use Sound 5 abilities nor can he use Oro's form.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

Denienei is the Ninjutsu needed for him to use their abilities as it states. It's Senjutsu. Thus no Senjutsu=No Denienei. No Denienei=No Sound 5 and extra Oro abilities for Kabuto.

Read the DB quote. Its not giving a description of the jutsu word for word, its giving a commentary on the entry. Its classified as both ninjutsu and senjutsu.

 

[KidGamer65]

Read the DB quote. Its not giving a description of the jutsu word for word, its giving a commentary on the entry. Its classified as both ninjutsu and senjutsu.

Whether it's a description of the jutsu word for word, or whether it's just someone who read it telling us what it says, doesn't change what is in the DB. It being classified as Ninjutsu and Senjutsu doesn't matter when all Senjutsu are Ninjutsu in the first place. Senjutsu is Ninjutsu with Senjutsu Chakra inside. Thus it's both. That doesn't mean it has a Ninjutsu counter part.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

Whether it's a description of the jutsu word for word, or whether it's just someone who read it telling us what it says, doesn't change what is in the DB. It being classified as Ninjutsu and Senjutsu doesn't matter when all Senjutsu are Ninjutsu in the first place. Senjutsu is Ninjutsu with Senjutsu Chakra inside. Thus it's both. That doesn't mean it has a Ninjutsu counter part.

Um yes it does as you keep putting in some context for you to interpret that senjutsu is ninjutsu in the first place. Lmao, lets stop making up your own manga description please[

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Just concede none of what your saying make sense. Its has its own class for ninjutsu because he can use it only through using his physical and spiritual energy. DB description gave it its own Kenji sign while gave senjutsu its own sign too.

Plus they're far better translation on that now then that old one.

 

[KidGamer65]

Um yes it does as you keep putting in some context for you to interpret that senjutsu is ninjutsu in the first place. Lmao, lets stop making up your own manga description please[

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He said he'll show Naruto the difference from Ninjutsu and Senjutsu. He never said that Senjutsu isn't Ninjutsu nor did he say anything that'd contradict that.

I suggest we cut the BS and learn how to interpret the Manga. Correctly that is.

Just concede none of what your saying make sense. Its has its own class for ninjutsu because he can use it only through using his physical and spiritual energy. DB description gave it its own Kenji sign while gave senjutsu its own sign too.

Irrelevant. Senjutsu and Ninjutsu being different doesn't change the fact that at the end of the day, Senjutsu is Ninjutsu. It's the same elementary principle of a square being a rectangle, but a rectangle not being a square. A rectangle and a square are different. Yet one is the other, but the other isn't the other in turn.

Not my fault you can't grasp something so very simple. It's funny how you bring the DB to try and prove your point too...

Fighting Tongue* Bind (舌戦縛, Zessenbaku)
Ninjutsu, Senjutsu, No rank, Offensive, Supplementary, All ranges
Shima

A sticky acid that dissolves all detected creatures
A tongue binding that makes it impossible to move!!

By using senjutsu chakra, Shima's tongue has grown to its utmost limit and has been shaped like a face. It then scents out the peculiar stink released by living beings. When the target's location has been discovered, the tongue extends with terrifying speed. With it whip-like flexibility, it ties up the target and dissolves it with a highly acidic mucus released from the warts.

[picture of Shima shooting out her tongue]
[picture of Pain's chameleon summon being caught]
↑→In contrast to Fukasaku's "Fighting Tongue Slash," Shima's tongue is highly flexible!! The captured target is dissolved with a highly acidic mucus while still alive.

*Zessen is written with the kanji for "tongue" and "battle". It can be translated as "To battle with tongues". I decided to lay the emphasis on the use of tongues, turning it into "fighting tongue". In normal use, however, it means "war of words," or "verbal dispute". Just like Fukasaku and Shima are having all the time.

Oh look. Shima's Zessenbaku is Senjutsu AND Ninjutsu according to the beloved Databook. It has it's class for Ninjutsu because it's a Ninjutsu. Don't say it has a Ninjutsu version because that makes zero sense as:

1. Senjutsu is a form of Ninjutsu.
2. Zessenbaku can ONLY be used via Senjutsu Chakra as the Senjutsu Chakra is what causes it to grow. It isn't an enhancement.

DB lists the same for Kawazu Naki, and Gama Rinsho. Both of which rely on Senjutsu Chakra, not the enhancement of a normal Ninjutsu like Rasengan to Senpo Raengan.

Learn what Ninjutsu is.

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Does any Senjutsu violate anything that defines a Ninjutsu? Obviously not. So all Senjutsu are Ninjutsu as well.

Please concede. This shouldn't go on after this post.

Plus they're far better translation on that now then that old one.

Proof that there is a translation better than this one? You can't even see the translation for this one since it's just the guy reading it giving us the gist of the statement, so how do you know if it's better or not? Lol.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

Proof that there is a translation better than this one? You can't even see the translation for this one since it's just the guy reading it giving us the gist of the statement, so how do you know if it's better or not? Lol.

Ok, I was wrong using DB to make that as proof. But considering that DB made statements that Senjutsu is require for Hashirama to some Mokuton tech, despite we seeing Senjutu-less versions, leaves room to in context of how to interpret that jutsu use.

Despite Kabuto, having already using all Orochimaru's abilities bar using his transformation leavwe opening room that Senjutsu is not necessary. As for manga evidence for Sound 5 abilities, when someone is using Senpou it is called out in the manga. Kabuto didn't do that, despite them having Senjutsu by default.

Either way, excluding this as evidence or not, doesn't really change the match up here.

 

[KidGamer65]

Ok, I was wrong using DB to make that as proof. But considering that DB made statements that Senjutsu is require for Hashirama to some Mokuton tech, despite we seeing Senjutu-less versions, leaves room to in context of how to interpret that jutsu use.

Not really. There was proof provided that SS and Myojinmon have versions without Senjutsu. That doesn't mean we give every Senjutsu a counterpart without no Senjutsu Chakra. Would you or anyone have come to the conclusion that SS and Myojinmon can be used in Base had the Manga not shown it?

Nope.

Despite Kabuto, having already using all Orochimaru's abilities bar using his transformation leavwe opening room that Senjutsu is not necessary. As for manga evidence for Sound 5 abilities, when someone is using Senpou it is called out in the manga. Kabuto didn't do that, despite them having Senjutsu by default.

Orochimaru is completely different. His cells were literally transforming Kabuto into a copy of him, that's why he could use his abilities. Same as when Sasuke absorbed him. Kabuto didn't even call out the jutsu name "Denienei" when he used any abilities. So him not calling out "Senpo" isn't proof he wasn't using Senjutsu.

Either way, excluding this as evidence or not, doesn't really change the match up here.

Ok.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

Not really. There was proof provided that SS and Myojinmon have versions without Senjutsu. That doesn't mean we give every Senjutsu a counterpart without no Senjutsu Chakra. Would you or anyone have come to the conclusion that SS and Myojinmon can be used in Base had the Manga not shown it?

Nope.

I agree, but because that happened, leaves room that its not specific to Jiraya and Naruto. It leaves room as evidence that they're techniques that doesn't need Senjutsu specifically for other users too.

Orochimaru is completely different. His cells were literally transforming Kabuto into a copy of him, that's why he could use his abilities. Same as when Sasuke absorbed him. Kabuto didn't even call out the jutsu name "Denienei" when he used any abilities. So him not calling out "Senpo" isn't proof he wasn't using Senjutsu.

Agreed with BOLDED

@Underline is basing my reason reason as evidence that Senjutsu is not required.

@Bold/underline: Did you know Ma and Pa didn't shout out their jutsus against w/ Jiraya? It was DB that we got official names, which labeled it as "Senpou". So I see it draws more closer that evidence of "D'N'A can be used in base.

Ok.

What is you opinion now, base on the fact that Kabuto can still mold Senjutsu chakra without the need to enter SM?

 

[KidGamer65]

I agree, but because that happened, leaves room that its not specific to Jiraya and Naruto. It leaves room as evidence that they're techniques that doesn't need Senjutsu specifically for other users too.

It leaves room for evidence to be provided. Doesn't mean that there is evidence.

Agreed with BOLDED

@Underline is basing my reason reason as evidence that Senjutsu is not required.

Except by that logic, you'd be saying that Kabuto didn't ever use the technique as he never ever called it out. And that's obviously false.

@Bold/underline: Did you know Ma and Pa didn't shout out their jutsus against w/ Jiraya? It was DB that we got official names, which labeled it as "Senpou". So I see it draws more closer that evidence of "D'N'A can be used in base.

That isn't evidence. Not even sure how that is evidence. They used Senjutsu, but didn't call it out. Doesn't change the fact that their techniques need Senjutsu for them to actually be used.

What is you opinion now, base on the fact that Kabuto can still mold Senjutsu chakra without the need to enter SM?

Him being able to mold Senjutsu Chakra w/o the need to enter Sage Mode only means that Kisame can't carelessly absorb Senjutsu Chakra from him. It doesn't mean that he can't kill him the conventional way. Through offensive attacks. So chakra absorption has been covered, but not everything else.

And even then, he'd have to take a lot to turn to stone considering he himself has a lot of chakra.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

Except by that logic, you'd be saying that Kabuto didn't ever use the technique as he never ever called it out. And that's obviously false.

How is this even close to what I am saying?

That isn't evidence. Not even sure how that is evidence. They used Senjutsu, but didn't call it out. Doesn't change the fact that their techniques need Senjutsu for them to actually be used.

Its base on evidence base on the fact that it is labeled Senpou, which means it needs to be Senpou for access.

Ma, Pa, and Kabuto have no named abilities. When we got further details one doesn't stated Senpou and another does. All of Kabuto's ability in Sound 5 weren't label as Senpou despite needed if required Senjutsu to be accessed

Him being able to mold Senjutsu Chakra w/o the need to enter Sage Mode only means that Kisame can't carelessly absorb Senjutsu Chakra from him. It doesn't mean that he can't kill him the conventional way. Through offensive attacks. So chakra absorption has been covered, but not everything else.

And even then, he'd have to take a lot to turn to stone considering he himself has a lot of chakra.

So, how does Kisame know, not to or what not?

@Bold Thats relevant? He will take the same amount of time as Naruto and Kabuto would.

 

[KidGamer65]

How is this even close to what I am saying?

I misunderstood.

You're still wrong though.

Its base on evidence base on the fact that it is labeled Senpou, which means it needs to be Senpou for access.

Wrong.

"Senpo: Shinsuusenju"

"Senpo: Rasengan"

"Senpo: Yoton Rasen Shuriken"

So, how does Kisame know, not to or what not?

He doesn't, so it all depends on his course of action. So your argument does have merit in this regard since he'd be more likely to absorb his opponents chakra than he would to kill them via conventional methods.

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong. Lol.

@Bold Thats relevant? He will take the same amount of time as Naruto did.

Meh. Still doesn't change the point.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

I misunderstood.

You're still wrong though.

Wrong.

"Senpo: Shinsuusenju"

"Senpo: Rasengan"

"Senpo: Yoton Rasen Shuriken"

We know these have base forms, while Rikdoku Naruto is practically different explanation.

He doesn't, so it all depends on his course of action. So your argument does have merit in this regard since he'd be more likely to absorb his opponents chakra than he would to kill them via conventional methods.

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong. Lol.

k

Meh. Still doesn't change the point.

k

 

[KidGamer65]

We know these have base forms, while Rikdoku Naruto is practically different explanation.

So? That alone is proof that the "Senpo" doesn't mean that it's a jutsu that needs Senjutsu to be used at all. So there's no reason to believe that Denienei has a base form, based on the fact that "Senpo" should indicate a Jutsu that needs Senjutsu.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

So? That alone is proof that the "Senpo" doesn't mean that it's a jutsu that needs Senjutsu to be used at all. So there's no reason to believe that Denienei has a base form, based on the fact that "Senpo" should indicate a Jutsu that needs Senjutsu.

When we look at Senpou in the manga it either is used for:

1. unlocking a new unique access ability

2. increasing the ability they already had

Your examples are base on 2. So it doesn't discredit my point.

 

[KidGamer65]

When we look at Senpou in the manga it either is used for:

1. unlocking a new unique access ability

2. increasing the ability they already had

Your examples are base on 2. So it doesn't discredit my point.

No, all it means is that the technique being used is a Senjutsu. Stop splitting the examples off like it can apply to one but not the other. Not how it works. Besides, you are grasping at straws now.

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[Brother Numpsay]

No, all it means is that the technique being used is a Senjutsu. Stop splitting the examples off like it can apply to one but not the other. Not how it works. Besides, you are grasping at straws now.

How is this straw-man?

@Bold, if it couldn't then show me why it wouldn't, then I'll simply concede the argument.

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What is this suppose to disprove? I see this and Muki Tensei as new abilities that requires enter SM, not a pre existing ability being boost.

Im trying to prove that DNA is a class that is pre existing ability being boost by Senjutsu. This is where my examples have been leading to.

 

[KidGamer65]

How is this straw-man?

@Bold, if it couldn't then I'll simply concede the argument.

Never said it was a strawman.

Then you should, cause you can't selectively apply the term Senpo to two different meanings. "Senpo" is there for one reason. You said it's because it indicates an original technique, but the fact unoriginal Senjutsu techniques have that "Senpo" thrown in there is proof that "senpo" isn't only used for original Senjutsu techs. Whether or not we know if they have a base form doesn't matter.

What is this suppose to disprove? I see this and Muki Tensei as new abilities that requires enter SM, not a pre existing ability being boost.

Im trying to prove that DNA is a class that is pre existing ability being boost by Senjutsu. This is where my examples have been leading to.

Your examples are base on 2. So it doesn't discredit my point.

Lol, you said my examples were based on 2, so it doesn't discredit your point. So I brought an example for 1.

And there is no proof for that. You said that Senpo is used for techniques that are only original, but Manga proves that wrong.