Icelerate
Sannin of the Scrolls 📜
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I know, it's been an entire year.
3 on 3: KG, Haizaki and Zexion~ vs. Forbidden Technique, Beans2, and Icelerate
- Thread starter KidGamer65
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Ghost in the Shell
Jōnin Strategist 🧠
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Take as much time as you need, FT. I am in absolutely no rush to start our debate either.
Icelerate
Sannin of the Scrolls 📜
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No don't encourage him to continue at a snail's pace.
Icelerate
Sannin of the Scrolls 📜
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Yes, the last time he worked on the post is on February 25.
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Beans2
Sannin of the Scrolls 📜
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Okay our team is about 2/3rds done with our post and are gonna set a deadline to post whether we are done or not. It is bad manners to keep our opponents judges and spectators waiting for so long and we apologize for that. Narutobase as a whole is a lot less active than it used to be and I have lost a lot of interest in this site in general along with a lot of regulars. I want the deadline to be something like June 1st and will wait to see if my group agrees with that date.
Also who is judging this again? Btw I will pledge not to challenge the verdict of any of the judges no matter what it might be. In a debate this long and detailed judges are bound to make a few mistakes and I am not expecting perfect judgments. This is similar to how refs in NBA games sometimes make bad calls- it's just a part of the game. I suggest everyone else on both sides to make this pledge too.
Also who is judging this again? Btw I will pledge not to challenge the verdict of any of the judges no matter what it might be. In a debate this long and detailed judges are bound to make a few mistakes and I am not expecting perfect judgments. This is similar to how refs in NBA games sometimes make bad calls- it's just a part of the game. I suggest everyone else on both sides to make this pledge too.
Zexion~
Kage in the Making 👑
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Lol wouldn't quite call that an apt comparison but very well, we probably have no judges by now however.
KidGamer65
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1
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Yeah, we barely care as it is so I don't expect anyone else to care enough to read all 6 posts.
Beans2
Sannin of the Scrolls 📜
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Wanna be a judge?
Forbidden Technique
Anbu Operative 🎭
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Lmao, I mean, like is there any point in finishing this then? We've all been collectively working on that 50,000 word post for a while now. If people don't care, and it's not even going to be judged, then I don't see the point.
We can either post what we have or let it be. Doesn't matter to me.
We can either post what we have or let it be. Doesn't matter to me.
Haizaki
Sannin of the Scrolls 📜
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Do you know what I find really really funny about the current situation? LOOL the fact that some members were bashing KCN badly for not posting for what? Several days or barely a week? Lmao now we have deadlines and that all of a sudden. It's been since December, who really interested tbh? Can't remember the last time I checked a manga page this year but oh well....let's see what the judges say, if there's even one.
Forbidden Technique
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One of my team members didn't PM me his contribution to the post, which reflects on the lack of links in some areas. I'll edit it if/when he sends them to me, otherwise I'm just going to post this here before I lose it all. We genuinely feel like we had this debate in the bag, but ran out of steam due to how time consuming it was to counter KG's entire post. Either way, here is all we got.
The bold is obviously false because manga repeatedly shows that jutsu prep is the result of chakra build up rather than change in chakra nature, and since you just clarified that neither you nor Zexion ever argued that being a KKT would make it take longer to prep, Jinton should be no different in that regard. So that whole premise can be thrown out the window when the manga explains that:
1. Changing chakra to an element is chakra control [1].
2. The process of controlling and manipulating chakra based on an individual technique usually occurs in the few seconds when the user makes hand seals [2].
3. This argument is backed up by how Kitsuchi needed time to build up chakra, but didn't need time to convert his chakra into earth element. That happened during the hand seals.
4. Then there's the fact that if converting chakra to an element/KKG was the reason for prep time then you'd have to argue that non-element techniques would consistently have faster execution speed then non-element techniques, an assumption supported by nothing in this manga.
1. You're attempting to discredit that feat by saying Susanoo clones are slow. Irrelevant when you take into account the short distance between the clones and Gokage. Doesn't matter if they're slow, they absolutely would have interrupted the Jinton prep if Onoki was on his own. Those clones were fast enough to tag Mei once and Tsunade twice (based on the blades sticking through their chest). It is far faster for Mei or Tsunade to dodge an attack then it is for Onoki to get off Jinton before the clones closed that short distance, yet he managed to do it.
2. When did Ice use cylindrical jinton or even mention the shape of a Jinton as being relevant in this argument? He didn't, so this is mostly irrelevant. Your Katon example holds no weight when Jinton=/=Katon, and it's shown that smaller scale Jintons have a faster execution speed than large ones, something you even admit in this paragraph so it clearly proves that regular Jinton w/ Sakura's help will be faster to prep than super Jinton w/ Sakura's help. We only needs to use regular Jinton to take out your team members.
Onoki clearly had the capability to knead more chakra than what Tsunade gave him into Jinton, based on him asking Tsunade for more chakra and her confirming that she was low on chakra. To assume what was shown in canon is Onoki's limit while ignoring the evidence pointing towards it being Tsunade, not Onoki, who had reached their limit is a fallacy. A larger super Jinton than what was shown in canon, which can also be swung around, is enough to wipe out your entire team at once.
As for the last bit, I have no idea what you're talking about. Shape of jinton clearly has nothing to do with the speed of its execution as evidenced by Muu and Onoki clashing different shaped Jintons at the same time.
Is that so? Zero factual evidence was provided to support this claim. On the contrary, we have kid Naruto physically stopping a full sized snake summon [
1) Wow, first of all, the speed of which Samehada was swung due to it's composition was being referred to here, not the force. Judges should take note of the failure to address this point properly. The point was that Samehada doesn't require an extremely fast swing like traditional swords in order to deal it's damage. Either way, you're still incorrect on your assessment, which was completely besides the point. It's quite the opposite. All of the force does't need to be applied upon the initial swinging motion, that would be a slashing weapon. Let's take a look at the two complete differences between Samehada and traditional swords.
Look at the fast swinging motion needed for an ordinary sword
Compared to Samehada, that requires no swinging motion. It works by applying a sawing motion
So once again, Kisame swinging Samehada at Naruto wasn't a top speed motion for Kisame, and no where near it. A) His target was a petrified 12 year old, who wasn't going to avoid it regardless; and B) Samehada doesn't work by a fast slashing motion like other swords do.
2) Wrong. After his strike was blocked, he would stop applying pressure? Yeah, because that's what Kisame was canonically shown to do
Yes, Jiraiya managed to utilize his summoning in order to block a completely casual and non serious swing towards a 12 year old, who was too scared to move a muscle. What a feat. A feat that in no way proves that Jiraiya's hand seal speed will be fast enough to outspeed Kitsuchi using mobile core, considering your team's premise that Jiraiya has to turn around or have a team member block his view to hide his seals, a premise that Haizaki introduced in the first post and Zexion and yourself have continued to argue. So once again, while your tactic requires the use of hand seals, and the action of hiding them, all that's needed to execute mobile core is a slap to the ground.
Onoki slaps the ground, mobile core is executed and catches Madara off guard who reacts much faster than any of your team members by feats.
Ittan, who is more or less a fodder, slaps the ground and lowers his team into the earth faster than Deidara can explode his bomb. Kitsuchi who is a Doton expert logically can execute the same move at least as fast as Ittan, if not faster, considering he intercepted V2 Ginkaku.
Okay, we will concede on this minor point.
Your teams course of action requires two separate maneuvers, while ours requires one. It's almost flabbergasting that we are here trying to prove which can be accomplished first.
Your team:
Maneuver 1) Jiraiya must first completely turn his whole body around, or alternatively Jiraiya must wait until someone moves completely in front of him.
Maneuver 2) Jiraiya then completes his hand seal for Yomi Numa
Our team:
Maneuver 1) Kitsuchi slaps the ground. Sakura punches the ground.
By the time your team accomplishes maneuver 1, so should our team, even if it's a hairs time behind. It should also be noted that just because Jiraiya has to complete a single hand seal, doesn't necessarily mean it can comfortably be accomplished before the opposition can make movements [
Full intel means our team knows of all of yours teams jutsu, and vice versa. Our team should be able to determine for themselves which jutsu would be the most troublesome to deal with. Common sense determines that Yomi Numa poses the most trouble given it's short prep, easy execution, and what it does. Our team should safely assume that this is a tactic that the opposition will strategically aim to deploy; and likewise, should strategically aim to prevent in order to gain the upper hand. Regardless of when our team is anticipating or predicting Yomi Numa being utilized, the smartest course of action will be to eliminate this threat as soon as possible, i.e. match start. Furthermore, our first course of action isn't even reliant on the notion of countering Yomi Numa. Kitsuchi using Moving Earth Core gives our team the higher ground advantage, while Sakura punching the ground immediately disorients your team and buys our team time to further set up. These are steps that are aimed towards giving our team the immediate advantage, while also conveniently dealing with Yomi Numa in the process.
Again, Kitsuchi was fast enough to intercept V2 Kinkaku. Your team is absolutely not accomplishing two maneuvers before Kitsuchi can simply slap the floor. Not a chance. However, it's clear you guys whole argument and chance of victory hinges on Jiraiya successfully blocking his hand seals and getting off Yomi Numa before our team does a single thing... So we'll play into your unlikely scenario, and prove that our victory doesn't come at such desperation as yours later in this post.
We can see that rocks are existing on the surface of YN without instantly sinking. Therefore, it is not a reach by any means to claim that much larger boulders wouldn't temporarily be there as well. Comparing the aftermath of the two giant snakes and Sakura's punch does not in any way support your assertion. The difference in damage output to the ground between the two attacks are immense. The snakes caused a bunch of debris and rocks that are barely big enough to stand on, while Sakura caused debris and boulders that dwarf ordinary humans in size. Horrible comparison, if we're going to be honest with ourselves.
There are no giant boulders around to jump on top of? Umm... What do you call these then.
And clearly many more if they weren't covered by the debris, judging by this
Do you not see the rocks that are already under Sakura's feet? Only this time, it'll be with the usage of her Byakogou seal, and thus, on a much bigger and devastating scale. Clearly, we can see how giant rocks were separated from the ground, now up the scale of the very above scan to the size of the massive boulders she caused in the WA and that's exactly what they're standing on.
CES is a form of ninjutsu. It works by concentrating chakra into ones fist, which supplements the punch on contact. Clearly has very little to do with momentum. No where in this manga has been hinted or implied that momentum aids the chakra potency behind the strike. That's just silly. Furthermore, the increase in impact by sheer momentum is negligible because someone far faster than her, Ay, can only yield an incomparably smaller DC, so an even more incomparably smaller DC increase yields absolutely no difference whatsoever.
That's fine. A massive Katon/Fuuton combination aimed towards Katsuyu and big enough to cover her scale
The boulders eventually sinking into the swamp isn't an issue for our team. In this time, Onoki saves them by all going aerial. Again, the purpose of Sakura punching the ground in this manner is to allow our team to not get immediately stuck in the swamp while simultaneously disorienting your team while we execute our next moves. The rest has already been addressed in my post, so I'm not going to once again discuss why your team doesn't ridiculously accomplish two full maneuvers while my team doesn't accomplish just one.
Summoning Manda (or any large snake) while massive boulders are flying right down on them? Not a great idea. Meanwhile, they can also meet a Jinton laser.
The obvious purpose of summoning a small piece of Katsuyu would be to give our team a foundation to jump off of, even if it's momentarily. Summoning jutsu works by instantaneously summoning a creature, in our case, directly below the feet. Even if that piece of Katsuyu were to sink, it will factually push our team above the swamp, because again, it is instantaneously being summoned. What you're suggesting here is that the very exact moment Katsuyu is summoned, it'll be sunk, which is simply untrue. Going by your very logic in the bolded, and applying real world logic to it, it would take about a full second or two to be fully submerged in water from the time your feet first makes contact with the water assuming a human sized being were to jump into a deep body of water. It happens quickly, but it's very far from being instantaneous like the summoning jutsu.
Thus, summoning Katsuyu below the feet will factually carry our team above the surface of YN (because again, fully submerging isn't instant) and give us at least a seconds time to react and jump off before the Kutsuyu piece is fully submerged. Fortunately, ninja in this manga are casually able to react to things and gain tons of ground within just a seconds time. We know this for a fact, because Naruto's FRS covered the whole entire CT crater
While Sakura and Kitsuchi are focusing on getting out the swamp, Onoki simultaneously
Onoki's flight works by using certain stances to soar through the sky.
Why exactly would Onoki's clones fail to make stances just because they don't have the chakra reserves of the original? They may be made of rock but there is
Gaara's sand only caught Deidara by surprise with regular desert sand considering
Onoki flying side by side with Deidara is not proof that he is only as fast as Deidara.
We're getting incredibly messy and all over the place here. If we're going along the course of Jiraiya/Gamabunta somehow successfully getting off their combo technique, then we are enforcing the strategy that Icelerate employed after clearly writing "if it proves to be too large to dodge".
Onoki retreats down to the ground, where Kitsuchi enforces a Doton bunker, that can be reinforced by Sakura if need be. Additionally to Icelerates strategy, Onoki can also utilized his
^ In the bottom panel, we can see that the jutsu has finished as nothing is coming out of Gamabunta's mouth. They're waiting for the fire and smoke to settle so that they can see what is going on. Vision is clearly tarnished here as we only see Manda's silhouette.
^ Top panel, all we see is the giant AoE of the Toad Oil combination that still is settling. The top composes of flames, while the middle and bottom portion is composed of smoke. Both are clearly distinguishable as complete different things, so lets not pretend that it is all just fire. Bottom right panel, and Jiraiya/Gamabunta are STILL waiting for their attack to finally settle, and for their target to be distinguishable.
Sasuke's Sharingan will not see through chakra infused fire, as well as chakra infused rock structures, so that's not aiding your team either. This attack completely backfires on your team as all it does is buy our team plenty of time to counter while remaining safe within our Doton defense(s). It takes time to finally settle, in which time, our team employs a super charged Jinton (from within our bunker) that comes at a surprise to your team, as your very attack takes away your own vision, as established. Jinton GG. Not sure what Hiruzen is aiming at with his narrow Raiton streams while he waits for the Toad Oil Fire to settle down, while our team doesn't have to wait, using a super Jinton that is executed fairly quickly. He wouldn't know what exact position our team decided to bunker down, as he's firing after the Toad Oil combination (loss of LoS), where our team will be countering after the fact. Not to mention, it isn't out of character for Iwagakure ninjas to counter similar attacks with Mobile Core as well [
It works perfectly on Gamabunta, because the combination takes time to initiate, as well as the duration of the jutsu itself. Kitsuchi only needs to raise a higher platform under Gamabuntas feet than the one on the Juubi to completely mess up Gamabuntas footing and aim. Example: Kitsuchi raises a high platform on Gamabuntas back legs, forcing him to aim immediately towards the ground, which may rebound around your teams vicinity considering it's large AoE.
Lol, not a chance.
Hiruzen's clones suddenly and conveniently accompanying the boss toad summons was not a part of the original premise that Zexion proposed. Icelerate's counter entailed Onoki wrecking those summons in the way Zexion used them. So if you guys are going to conveniently switch up strategies without prior specifying where and when Hiruzen's Kage Bunshins come into play here, then we will also adjust our strategy accordingly. In this case, going aerial secures the demise of Jiraiya's precious Boss Toad summons, as Onoki only needs to fire his laser Jinton or quick fire a lesser scaled Jinton [
What is being implied here is that momentum carries the bulk behind the destructive output of Sakura's punch. Just like Icelerate pointed out, which was conveniently danced around, Ay's momentum exceeds anything Sakura can ever wish to accomplish BY FAR. Yet, his destructive output is nowhere near that of Sakura's. It's as simple as that. CES=Chakra Enhanced Strength, and the fact is, that enhancement is extremely substantial. Far more substantial than momentum, which clearly plays a smaller factor in damage output.
The bold is incorrect considering Katsuyu channelled Byakogou chakra into the shinobi who were having their chakra absorbed by the god tree which allowed them to keep fighting.
Your second point is also incorrect because mystical palm technique works by transferring chakra into the target to heal them, which means to heal via Katsuyu, Katsuyu receives chakra from Sakura/Tsunade and then it is used to heal the target. Mystical palm technique is a chakra transfer in a delicate fashion so it is more highly advanced than just regular chakra transfer which even early part 2 Naruto could do.
Here is a DB4 translation by Turrin from NF which proves your assertion wrong.
This fact was addressed in Beans' first post in response to Haizaki so stop recycling old argumentation when it's been countered. Again:
1- For them to actually get caught in the swamp Jiraiya would have to use YN before Sakura punches the ground, something you've failed to prove.
2- Summoning Katsuyu would just as easily allow Sakura to escape the swamp.
3- When Ice said Onoki would lighten his teammates that was obviously a reference to him making them weightless in which case they can fly upwards with enough force to break free from the swamp's pull, not like this is necessary because we literally have a scan showing Onoki pulling Aoba out of a cement trap. That exact same interaction can be applied with his rock clones pulling his teammates out of the swamp.
And yes, in the grand scheme of things it DOES matter because a lightened person will sink slower than normal like you just admitted. This gives Onoki more time to make clones and rescue his teammates. Also mentioning that it was the smallest and most shallow swamp Jiraiya's used is irrelevant because you have no proof that the size of the swamp affects the speed at which it pulls in its targets, and there's no reason to believe it does.
@Bold because achieving flight through the lightened boulder technique is achieved by maintaining different body positions and stances:
Obviously one can't change their stance if they are focusing on gathering dust chakra between their outstretched hands so it stands to reason that to prep Jinton one must be stationary but not necessarily immobile. Not only this but look at the lengths Akatsuchi goes to just to disrupt Jinton [X], instead of bumping or shaking Onoki to disrupt the prep he literally wrenches his hands apart which goes to show prepping Jinton isn't nearly as delicate as a process as you think it is so your assertion that "Mu can't move at all while prepping Jinton" is a baseless one.
Rock clones can fly just as fast as the original. Like the DB page stated above says, maintaining different stances is how Onoki and his clones navigate through the air and not a chakra-based ability. Why exactly would Onoki's clones fail to make stances just because they don't have the chakra reserves of the original? There is no difference in punching when it comes to rock clones (bottom panel). Therefore changing stances (which require less movement and agility than the act of punching) can be achieved just as easily by rock clones as by the original Onoki.
Definitely didn't start prepping it before since it's shown Muu isn't prepping Jinton while Naruto gives a command to Gaara [X]. So the earliest Muu could have started prepping Jinton was at the same moment Gaara moved his hand which holds very very little significance to your argument since Muu had nearly completed forming his cylinder at the same moment Naruto's chakra arm hit the sand cloud, and per Muu's statement would have completed his Jinton had it not been for Naruto's second chakra arm. That's pretty f*cking fast, and with Sakura reducing prep time, the prep time becomes almost nonexistent.
Naruto's physical reaction was on par with V2 Raikage's. Please don't act like this was a significant amount of time in any was shape or form. Especially when Naruto was the one who gave Gaara the command to form the sand cloud so he didn't have to react to it as he knew it was coming.
Even for you, this was a reach. Take into context the situation where Edo Muu was on Naruto's side, and that if he's giving Naruto a command that means he's telling Naruto to act in his best interests. So "dodge this" means the exact same thing as "you should dodge it" in this instance.
After we escape the initial use of YN, as explained several times, the Eruption Volcano secures our team from any further use of YN by immediately erupting it which frees our team. It is simply used as added insurance.
From the above panel, we can see that TenTen has been overlooking the entire battlefield the entire time. Right before Kitsuchi was shown intercepting Kinkaku, TenTen was
We'll leave the Darui point alone, as it doesn't make a difference and it's unclear whether Darui looked away or not.
Putting Kituchi above Deidara in terms of speed is baseless? Let's not be stubborn here. Kitsuchi was a captain of the entire Shinobi Alliance Army, alongside Kakashi, Gaara, Mifune, and Darui. All extremely proficient ninja. The difference here, is that he is the captain the of Close-Range division, which obviously means he is extremely proficient in CQC, which is the style of combat that demands the most amount of reaction, execution, and body speed. Let's not put that in the same category as someone who got blitzed by Sai please. "Oh but that was aerial", Deidara could of jumped off his bird and out of the way of the attack like he did to Sasuke's shunshin blitz, but obviously couldn't.
The bold is obviously false because manga repeatedly shows that jutsu prep is the result of chakra build up rather than change in chakra nature, and since you just clarified that neither you nor Zexion ever argued that being a KKT would make it take longer to prep, Jinton should be no different in that regard. So that whole premise can be thrown out the window when the manga explains that:
1. Changing chakra to an element is chakra control [1].
2. The process of controlling and manipulating chakra based on an individual technique usually occurs in the few seconds when the user makes hand seals [2].
3. This argument is backed up by how Kitsuchi needed time to build up chakra, but didn't need time to convert his chakra into earth element. That happened during the hand seals.
4. Then there's the fact that if converting chakra to an element/KKG was the reason for prep time then you'd have to argue that non-element techniques would consistently have faster execution speed then non-element techniques, an assumption supported by nothing in this manga.
1. You're attempting to discredit that feat by saying Susanoo clones are slow. Irrelevant when you take into account the short distance between the clones and Gokage. Doesn't matter if they're slow, they absolutely would have interrupted the Jinton prep if Onoki was on his own. Those clones were fast enough to tag Mei once and Tsunade twice (based on the blades sticking through their chest). It is far faster for Mei or Tsunade to dodge an attack then it is for Onoki to get off Jinton before the clones closed that short distance, yet he managed to do it.
2. When did Ice use cylindrical jinton or even mention the shape of a Jinton as being relevant in this argument? He didn't, so this is mostly irrelevant. Your Katon example holds no weight when Jinton=/=Katon, and it's shown that smaller scale Jintons have a faster execution speed than large ones, something you even admit in this paragraph so it clearly proves that regular Jinton w/ Sakura's help will be faster to prep than super Jinton w/ Sakura's help. We only needs to use regular Jinton to take out your team members.
Onoki clearly had the capability to knead more chakra than what Tsunade gave him into Jinton, based on him asking Tsunade for more chakra and her confirming that she was low on chakra. To assume what was shown in canon is Onoki's limit while ignoring the evidence pointing towards it being Tsunade, not Onoki, who had reached their limit is a fallacy. A larger super Jinton than what was shown in canon, which can also be swung around, is enough to wipe out your entire team at once.
As for the last bit, I have no idea what you're talking about. Shape of jinton clearly has nothing to do with the speed of its execution as evidenced by Muu and Onoki clashing different shaped Jintons at the same time.
Is that so? Zero factual evidence was provided to support this claim. On the contrary, we have kid Naruto physically stopping a full sized snake summon [
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]-[
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]. Let's not compare the strength of Kisame (single handedly overpowering base Gai, who has a 5/5 strength stat, at only 30%) and kid Naruto, even with a slightest bit of influence from Kurama. 1) Wow, first of all, the speed of which Samehada was swung due to it's composition was being referred to here, not the force. Judges should take note of the failure to address this point properly. The point was that Samehada doesn't require an extremely fast swing like traditional swords in order to deal it's damage. Either way, you're still incorrect on your assessment, which was completely besides the point. It's quite the opposite. All of the force does't need to be applied upon the initial swinging motion, that would be a slashing weapon. Let's take a look at the two complete differences between Samehada and traditional swords.
Look at the fast swinging motion needed for an ordinary sword
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Compared to Samehada, that requires no swinging motion. It works by applying a sawing motion
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So once again, Kisame swinging Samehada at Naruto wasn't a top speed motion for Kisame, and no where near it. A) His target was a petrified 12 year old, who wasn't going to avoid it regardless; and B) Samehada doesn't work by a fast slashing motion like other swords do.
2) Wrong. After his strike was blocked, he would stop applying pressure? Yeah, because that's what Kisame was canonically shown to do
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. Asuma blocked his strike, but Kisame continued to apply added pressure. Kisame is literally in the same exact stance in the [
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] and [
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], yet you're trying to argue Kisame stopped applying pressure based on absolutely nothing. De-summoning is instantaneous, and because Samehada didn't move in response, means this swing wasn't carrying any notable force behind it. Why? Because of what was stated in bullet point 1) above. This was a non serious swing. Yes, Jiraiya managed to utilize his summoning in order to block a completely casual and non serious swing towards a 12 year old, who was too scared to move a muscle. What a feat. A feat that in no way proves that Jiraiya's hand seal speed will be fast enough to outspeed Kitsuchi using mobile core, considering your team's premise that Jiraiya has to turn around or have a team member block his view to hide his seals, a premise that Haizaki introduced in the first post and Zexion and yourself have continued to argue. So once again, while your tactic requires the use of hand seals, and the action of hiding them, all that's needed to execute mobile core is a slap to the ground.
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Onoki slaps the ground, mobile core is executed and catches Madara off guard who reacts much faster than any of your team members by feats.
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Ittan, who is more or less a fodder, slaps the ground and lowers his team into the earth faster than Deidara can explode his bomb. Kitsuchi who is a Doton expert logically can execute the same move at least as fast as Ittan, if not faster, considering he intercepted V2 Ginkaku.
Okay, we will concede on this minor point.
Your teams course of action requires two separate maneuvers, while ours requires one. It's almost flabbergasting that we are here trying to prove which can be accomplished first.
Your team:
Maneuver 1) Jiraiya must first completely turn his whole body around, or alternatively Jiraiya must wait until someone moves completely in front of him.
Maneuver 2) Jiraiya then completes his hand seal for Yomi Numa
Our team:
Maneuver 1) Kitsuchi slaps the ground. Sakura punches the ground.
By the time your team accomplishes maneuver 1, so should our team, even if it's a hairs time behind. It should also be noted that just because Jiraiya has to complete a single hand seal, doesn't necessarily mean it can comfortably be accomplished before the opposition can make movements [
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] & [
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]-[
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]. Most notably in links [2]-[3], Hanzo was blitzed by Mifune before he was even able to clap his hands for a single hand seal. Therefore, it is completely unreasonable to think that two whole separate maneuvers can be deployed by your team before just the single one needed for ours. Full intel means our team knows of all of yours teams jutsu, and vice versa. Our team should be able to determine for themselves which jutsu would be the most troublesome to deal with. Common sense determines that Yomi Numa poses the most trouble given it's short prep, easy execution, and what it does. Our team should safely assume that this is a tactic that the opposition will strategically aim to deploy; and likewise, should strategically aim to prevent in order to gain the upper hand. Regardless of when our team is anticipating or predicting Yomi Numa being utilized, the smartest course of action will be to eliminate this threat as soon as possible, i.e. match start. Furthermore, our first course of action isn't even reliant on the notion of countering Yomi Numa. Kitsuchi using Moving Earth Core gives our team the higher ground advantage, while Sakura punching the ground immediately disorients your team and buys our team time to further set up. These are steps that are aimed towards giving our team the immediate advantage, while also conveniently dealing with Yomi Numa in the process.
Again, Kitsuchi was fast enough to intercept V2 Kinkaku. Your team is absolutely not accomplishing two maneuvers before Kitsuchi can simply slap the floor. Not a chance. However, it's clear you guys whole argument and chance of victory hinges on Jiraiya successfully blocking his hand seals and getting off Yomi Numa before our team does a single thing... So we'll play into your unlikely scenario, and prove that our victory doesn't come at such desperation as yours later in this post.
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We can see that rocks are existing on the surface of YN without instantly sinking. Therefore, it is not a reach by any means to claim that much larger boulders wouldn't temporarily be there as well. Comparing the aftermath of the two giant snakes and Sakura's punch does not in any way support your assertion. The difference in damage output to the ground between the two attacks are immense. The snakes caused a bunch of debris and rocks that are barely big enough to stand on, while Sakura caused debris and boulders that dwarf ordinary humans in size. Horrible comparison, if we're going to be honest with ourselves.
There are no giant boulders around to jump on top of? Umm... What do you call these then.
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And clearly many more if they weren't covered by the debris, judging by this
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. You're also completely forgetting our original premise. Our team doesn't really need to jump on anything. Our premise entailed Sakura punching the ground on an angle, which is a little bit different from WA scenario. Sakura is literally doing exactly this:
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Do you not see the rocks that are already under Sakura's feet? Only this time, it'll be with the usage of her Byakogou seal, and thus, on a much bigger and devastating scale. Clearly, we can see how giant rocks were separated from the ground, now up the scale of the very above scan to the size of the massive boulders she caused in the WA and that's exactly what they're standing on.
CES is a form of ninjutsu. It works by concentrating chakra into ones fist, which supplements the punch on contact. Clearly has very little to do with momentum. No where in this manga has been hinted or implied that momentum aids the chakra potency behind the strike. That's just silly. Furthermore, the increase in impact by sheer momentum is negligible because someone far faster than her, Ay, can only yield an incomparably smaller DC, so an even more incomparably smaller DC increase yields absolutely no difference whatsoever.
That's fine. A massive Katon/Fuuton combination aimed towards Katsuyu and big enough to cover her scale
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, allowing for Onoki to comfortably counter with an unseen Jinton laser for the GG. The boulders eventually sinking into the swamp isn't an issue for our team. In this time, Onoki saves them by all going aerial. Again, the purpose of Sakura punching the ground in this manner is to allow our team to not get immediately stuck in the swamp while simultaneously disorienting your team while we execute our next moves. The rest has already been addressed in my post, so I'm not going to once again discuss why your team doesn't ridiculously accomplish two full maneuvers while my team doesn't accomplish just one.
Summoning Manda (or any large snake) while massive boulders are flying right down on them? Not a great idea. Meanwhile, they can also meet a Jinton laser.
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The obvious purpose of summoning a small piece of Katsuyu would be to give our team a foundation to jump off of, even if it's momentarily. Summoning jutsu works by instantaneously summoning a creature, in our case, directly below the feet. Even if that piece of Katsuyu were to sink, it will factually push our team above the swamp, because again, it is instantaneously being summoned. What you're suggesting here is that the very exact moment Katsuyu is summoned, it'll be sunk, which is simply untrue. Going by your very logic in the bolded, and applying real world logic to it, it would take about a full second or two to be fully submerged in water from the time your feet first makes contact with the water assuming a human sized being were to jump into a deep body of water. It happens quickly, but it's very far from being instantaneous like the summoning jutsu.
Thus, summoning Katsuyu below the feet will factually carry our team above the surface of YN (because again, fully submerging isn't instant) and give us at least a seconds time to react and jump off before the Kutsuyu piece is fully submerged. Fortunately, ninja in this manga are casually able to react to things and gain tons of ground within just a seconds time. We know this for a fact, because Naruto's FRS covered the whole entire CT crater
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, meanwhile Naruto's Kage Bunshins were shown to be in movement and gain a small distance while FRS barely gained any real ground [
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]-[
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]. So our team easily jumps off of Katsuyu before she is fully submerged. While Sakura and Kitsuchi are focusing on getting out the swamp, Onoki simultaneously
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at your team which wouldn't allow for a Hiruzen and Jiraiya's Raiton/Toad Oil Flame Bomb, and instead force them to dodge. They're immediately countering the YN tactic, so this is all done way before Jiraiya is able to then summon Gamabunta and perform the combination.Onoki's flight works by using certain stances to soar through the sky.
Why exactly would Onoki's clones fail to make stances just because they don't have the chakra reserves of the original? They may be made of rock but there is
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(
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) when it comes to rock clones. It was a weak punch because of lack of weight, not because it was a rock clone. Therefore, making flight gestures, which requires less movement compared to punching, means that the gestures will be done just as easily as the regular Onoki. Gaara's sand only caught Deidara by surprise with regular desert sand considering
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. If his regular sand could legitimately catch Deidara, Gaara
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considering
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. Deidara being able to evade those attacks which Icelerate stated in his posts still stands. Also being guided matters a lot when it comes to hitting Deidara in flight because that attack which caught him off guard
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. Neither Hiruzen nor Jiraiya's elemental attacks will be able to replicate that. Not to mention guided attacks can be adjusted in mid flight unlike non guided ones. Gaara could have easily used a sand attack with
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than Hiruzen or Jiraiya's attacks to take Deidara down but he opted to go for a more precise and "lightning fast" (
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) sand attack once Deidara was no longer on his bird and in a state of free fall. Using gourd sand was a risky move
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because it is used to defend himself. Hence, if Gaara could have done the job with regular sand, he wouldn't have risked using gourd sand. Onoki flying side by side with Deidara is not proof that he is only as fast as Deidara.
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, yet Onoki was able to catch up with him thus proving Onoki is faster because Deidara had a head start. Onoki wanted to fight Deidara at close range (
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) and him out speeding Deidara would allow Deidara to fight at long range which Onoki clearly did not want.[/QUOTE]We're getting incredibly messy and all over the place here. If we're going along the course of Jiraiya/Gamabunta somehow successfully getting off their combo technique, then we are enforcing the strategy that Icelerate employed after clearly writing "if it proves to be too large to dodge".
Onoki retreats down to the ground, where Kitsuchi enforces a Doton bunker, that can be reinforced by Sakura if need be. Additionally to Icelerates strategy, Onoki can also utilized his
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for added defensive insurance. There is literally a huge shroud of smoke in the very scan you posted.
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^ In the bottom panel, we can see that the jutsu has finished as nothing is coming out of Gamabunta's mouth. They're waiting for the fire and smoke to settle so that they can see what is going on. Vision is clearly tarnished here as we only see Manda's silhouette.
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^ Top panel, all we see is the giant AoE of the Toad Oil combination that still is settling. The top composes of flames, while the middle and bottom portion is composed of smoke. Both are clearly distinguishable as complete different things, so lets not pretend that it is all just fire. Bottom right panel, and Jiraiya/Gamabunta are STILL waiting for their attack to finally settle, and for their target to be distinguishable.
Sasuke's Sharingan will not see through chakra infused fire, as well as chakra infused rock structures, so that's not aiding your team either. This attack completely backfires on your team as all it does is buy our team plenty of time to counter while remaining safe within our Doton defense(s). It takes time to finally settle, in which time, our team employs a super charged Jinton (from within our bunker) that comes at a surprise to your team, as your very attack takes away your own vision, as established. Jinton GG. Not sure what Hiruzen is aiming at with his narrow Raiton streams while he waits for the Toad Oil Fire to settle down, while our team doesn't have to wait, using a super Jinton that is executed fairly quickly. He wouldn't know what exact position our team decided to bunker down, as he's firing after the Toad Oil combination (loss of LoS), where our team will be countering after the fact. Not to mention, it isn't out of character for Iwagakure ninjas to counter similar attacks with Mobile Core as well [
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].It works perfectly on Gamabunta, because the combination takes time to initiate, as well as the duration of the jutsu itself. Kitsuchi only needs to raise a higher platform under Gamabuntas feet than the one on the Juubi to completely mess up Gamabuntas footing and aim. Example: Kitsuchi raises a high platform on Gamabuntas back legs, forcing him to aim immediately towards the ground, which may rebound around your teams vicinity considering it's large AoE.
Lol, not a chance.
Hiruzen's clones suddenly and conveniently accompanying the boss toad summons was not a part of the original premise that Zexion proposed. Icelerate's counter entailed Onoki wrecking those summons in the way Zexion used them. So if you guys are going to conveniently switch up strategies without prior specifying where and when Hiruzen's Kage Bunshins come into play here, then we will also adjust our strategy accordingly. In this case, going aerial secures the demise of Jiraiya's precious Boss Toad summons, as Onoki only needs to fire his laser Jinton or quick fire a lesser scaled Jinton [
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]. Jiraiya and the bunshins can very likely jump off the summons to avoid this, but your tactic irresponsibly left your summons defenseless in the air against an unstoppable one shot attack.What is being implied here is that momentum carries the bulk behind the destructive output of Sakura's punch. Just like Icelerate pointed out, which was conveniently danced around, Ay's momentum exceeds anything Sakura can ever wish to accomplish BY FAR. Yet, his destructive output is nowhere near that of Sakura's. It's as simple as that. CES=Chakra Enhanced Strength, and the fact is, that enhancement is extremely substantial. Far more substantial than momentum, which clearly plays a smaller factor in damage output.
The bold is incorrect considering Katsuyu channelled Byakogou chakra into the shinobi who were having their chakra absorbed by the god tree which allowed them to keep fighting.
Your second point is also incorrect because mystical palm technique works by transferring chakra into the target to heal them, which means to heal via Katsuyu, Katsuyu receives chakra from Sakura/Tsunade and then it is used to heal the target. Mystical palm technique is a chakra transfer in a delicate fashion so it is more highly advanced than just regular chakra transfer which even early part 2 Naruto could do.
Here is a DB4 translation by Turrin from NF which proves your assertion wrong.
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forums.com/posts/52197648/This fact was addressed in Beans' first post in response to Haizaki so stop recycling old argumentation when it's been countered. Again:
1- For them to actually get caught in the swamp Jiraiya would have to use YN before Sakura punches the ground, something you've failed to prove.
2- Summoning Katsuyu would just as easily allow Sakura to escape the swamp.
3- When Ice said Onoki would lighten his teammates that was obviously a reference to him making them weightless in which case they can fly upwards with enough force to break free from the swamp's pull, not like this is necessary because we literally have a scan showing Onoki pulling Aoba out of a cement trap. That exact same interaction can be applied with his rock clones pulling his teammates out of the swamp.
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And yes, in the grand scheme of things it DOES matter because a lightened person will sink slower than normal like you just admitted. This gives Onoki more time to make clones and rescue his teammates. Also mentioning that it was the smallest and most shallow swamp Jiraiya's used is irrelevant because you have no proof that the size of the swamp affects the speed at which it pulls in its targets, and there's no reason to believe it does.
@Bold because achieving flight through the lightened boulder technique is achieved by maintaining different body positions and stances:
Obviously one can't change their stance if they are focusing on gathering dust chakra between their outstretched hands so it stands to reason that to prep Jinton one must be stationary but not necessarily immobile. Not only this but look at the lengths Akatsuchi goes to just to disrupt Jinton [X], instead of bumping or shaking Onoki to disrupt the prep he literally wrenches his hands apart which goes to show prepping Jinton isn't nearly as delicate as a process as you think it is so your assertion that "Mu can't move at all while prepping Jinton" is a baseless one.
Rock clones can fly just as fast as the original. Like the DB page stated above says, maintaining different stances is how Onoki and his clones navigate through the air and not a chakra-based ability. Why exactly would Onoki's clones fail to make stances just because they don't have the chakra reserves of the original? There is no difference in punching when it comes to rock clones (bottom panel). Therefore changing stances (which require less movement and agility than the act of punching) can be achieved just as easily by rock clones as by the original Onoki.
Definitely didn't start prepping it before since it's shown Muu isn't prepping Jinton while Naruto gives a command to Gaara [X]. So the earliest Muu could have started prepping Jinton was at the same moment Gaara moved his hand which holds very very little significance to your argument since Muu had nearly completed forming his cylinder at the same moment Naruto's chakra arm hit the sand cloud, and per Muu's statement would have completed his Jinton had it not been for Naruto's second chakra arm. That's pretty f*cking fast, and with Sakura reducing prep time, the prep time becomes almost nonexistent.
Naruto's physical reaction was on par with V2 Raikage's. Please don't act like this was a significant amount of time in any was shape or form. Especially when Naruto was the one who gave Gaara the command to form the sand cloud so he didn't have to react to it as he knew it was coming.
Even for you, this was a reach. Take into context the situation where Edo Muu was on Naruto's side, and that if he's giving Naruto a command that means he's telling Naruto to act in his best interests. So "dodge this" means the exact same thing as "you should dodge it" in this instance.
After we escape the initial use of YN, as explained several times, the Eruption Volcano secures our team from any further use of YN by immediately erupting it which frees our team. It is simply used as added insurance.
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From the above panel, we can see that TenTen has been overlooking the entire battlefield the entire time. Right before Kitsuchi was shown intercepting Kinkaku, TenTen was
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. If Kitsuchi was anywhere close to that area at that moment, he would of been spotted and TenTen wouldn't only be commenting on how they were all getting destroyed by Kinkaku. This for a fact proves that Kitsuchi came from and travelled from a much farther distance than Kinkuku had to in order to hit Darui. In order to accomplish that feat, he had to be faster than Kinkuku in order to not only intercept his attack, but also assess the situation and immediately utilize his rock fist technique before Kinkaku's attack landed. This shows great traveling speed, body movement speed, reaction speed, and jutsu execution speed (Accurate with him being the captain of the Close Range Unit) especially considering it's a V2 Jin here. We'll leave the Darui point alone, as it doesn't make a difference and it's unclear whether Darui looked away or not.
Putting Kituchi above Deidara in terms of speed is baseless? Let's not be stubborn here. Kitsuchi was a captain of the entire Shinobi Alliance Army, alongside Kakashi, Gaara, Mifune, and Darui. All extremely proficient ninja. The difference here, is that he is the captain the of Close-Range division, which obviously means he is extremely proficient in CQC, which is the style of combat that demands the most amount of reaction, execution, and body speed. Let's not put that in the same category as someone who got blitzed by Sai please. "Oh but that was aerial", Deidara could of jumped off his bird and out of the way of the attack like he did to Sasuke's shunshin blitz, but obviously couldn't.
Zexion~
Kage in the Making 👑
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Bruh if you think someones post is too long there is literally nothing in the world that says you have to match it lmao KG's was not even that long due to him "OK'ng" most of your teams pointless arguments.