We're getting incredibly messy and all over the place here. If we're going along the course of Jiraiya/Gamabunta somehow successfully getting off their combo technique, then we are enforcing the strategy that Icelerate employed after clearly writing "if it proves to be too large to dodge".
Onoki retreats down to the ground, where Kitsuchi enforces a Doton bunker, that can be reinforced by Sakura if need be. Additionally to Icelerates strategy, Onoki can also utilized his
^ In the bottom panel, we can see that the jutsu has finished as nothing is coming out of Gamabunta's mouth. They're waiting for the fire and smoke to settle so that they can see what is going on. Vision is clearly tarnished here as we only see Manda's silhouette.
^ Top panel, all we see is the giant AoE of the Toad Oil combination that still is settling. The top composes of flames, while the middle and bottom portion is composed of smoke. Both are clearly distinguishable as complete different things, so lets not pretend that it is all just fire. Bottom right panel, and Jiraiya/Gamabunta are STILL waiting for their attack to finally settle, and for their target to be distinguishable.
Sasuke's Sharingan will not see through chakra infused fire, as well as chakra infused rock structures, so that's not aiding your team either. This attack completely backfires on your team as all it does is buy our team plenty of time to counter while remaining safe within our Doton defense(s). It takes time to finally settle, in which time, our team employs a super charged Jinton (from within our bunker) that comes at a surprise to your team, as your very attack takes away your own vision, as established. Jinton GG. Not sure what Hiruzen is aiming at with his narrow Raiton streams while he waits for the Toad Oil Fire to settle down, while our team doesn't have to wait, using a super Jinton that is executed fairly quickly. He wouldn't know what exact position our team decided to bunker down, as he's firing after the Toad Oil combination (loss of LoS), where our team will be countering after the fact. Not to mention, it isn't out of character for Iwagakure ninjas to counter similar attacks with Mobile Core as well [
It works perfectly on Gamabunta, because the combination takes time to initiate, as well as the duration of the jutsu itself. Kitsuchi only needs to raise a higher platform under Gamabuntas feet than the one on the Juubi to completely mess up Gamabuntas footing and aim. Example: Kitsuchi raises a high platform on Gamabuntas back legs, forcing him to aim immediately towards the ground, which may rebound around your teams vicinity considering it's large AoE.
Lol, not a chance.
Hiruzen's clones suddenly and conveniently accompanying the boss toad summons was not a part of the original premise that Zexion proposed. Icelerate's counter entailed Onoki wrecking those summons in the way Zexion used them. So if you guys are going to conveniently switch up strategies without prior specifying where and when Hiruzen's Kage Bunshins come into play here, then we will also adjust our strategy accordingly. In this case, going aerial secures the demise of Jiraiya's precious Boss Toad summons, as Onoki only needs to fire his laser Jinton or quick fire a lesser scaled Jinton [
What is being implied here is that momentum carries the bulk behind the destructive output of Sakura's punch. Just like Icelerate pointed out, which was conveniently danced around, Ay's momentum exceeds anything Sakura can ever wish to accomplish BY FAR. Yet, his destructive output is nowhere near that of Sakura's. It's as simple as that. CES=Chakra Enhanced Strength, and the fact is, that enhancement is extremely substantial. Far more substantial than momentum, which clearly plays a smaller factor in damage output.
The bold is incorrect considering Katsuyu channelled Byakogou chakra into the shinobi who were having their chakra absorbed by the god tree which allowed them to keep fighting.
Your second point is also incorrect because mystical palm technique works by transferring chakra into the target to heal them, which means to heal via Katsuyu, Katsuyu receives chakra from Sakura/Tsunade and then it is used to heal the target. Mystical palm technique is a chakra transfer in a delicate fashion so it is more highly advanced than just regular chakra transfer which even early part 2 Naruto could do.
Here is a DB4 translation by Turrin from NF which proves your assertion wrong.
This fact was addressed in Beans' first post in response to Haizaki so stop recycling old argumentation when it's been countered. Again:
1- For them to actually get caught in the swamp Jiraiya would have to use YN before Sakura punches the ground, something you've failed to prove.
2- Summoning Katsuyu would just as easily allow Sakura to escape the swamp.
3- When Ice said Onoki would lighten his teammates that was obviously a reference to him making them weightless in which case they can fly upwards with enough force to break free from the swamp's pull, not like this is necessary because we literally have a scan showing Onoki pulling Aoba out of a cement trap. That exact same interaction can be applied with his rock clones pulling his teammates out of the swamp.
And yes, in the grand scheme of things it DOES matter because a lightened person will sink slower than normal like you just admitted. This gives Onoki more time to make clones and rescue his teammates. Also mentioning that it was the smallest and most shallow swamp Jiraiya's used is irrelevant because you have no proof that the size of the swamp affects the speed at which it pulls in its targets, and there's no reason to believe it does.
@Bold because achieving flight through the lightened boulder technique is achieved by maintaining different body positions and stances:
Obviously one can't change their stance if they are focusing on gathering dust chakra between their outstretched hands so it stands to reason that to prep Jinton one must be stationary but not necessarily immobile. Not only this but look at the lengths Akatsuchi goes to just to disrupt Jinton [X], instead of bumping or shaking Onoki to disrupt the prep he literally wrenches his hands apart which goes to show prepping Jinton isn't nearly as delicate as a process as you think it is so your assertion that "Mu can't move at all while prepping Jinton" is a baseless one.
Rock clones can fly just as fast as the original. Like the DB page stated above says, maintaining different stances is how Onoki and his clones navigate through the air and not a chakra-based ability. Why exactly would Onoki's clones fail to make stances just because they don't have the chakra reserves of the original? There is no difference in punching when it comes to rock clones (bottom panel). Therefore changing stances (which require less movement and agility than the act of punching) can be achieved just as easily by rock clones as by the original Onoki.
Definitely didn't start prepping it before since it's shown Muu isn't prepping Jinton while Naruto gives a command to Gaara [X]. So the earliest Muu could have started prepping Jinton was at the same moment Gaara moved his hand which holds very very little significance to your argument since Muu had nearly completed forming his cylinder at the same moment Naruto's chakra arm hit the sand cloud, and per Muu's statement would have completed his Jinton had it not been for Naruto's second chakra arm. That's pretty f*cking fast, and with Sakura reducing prep time, the prep time becomes almost nonexistent.
Naruto's physical reaction was on par with V2 Raikage's. Please don't act like this was a significant amount of time in any was shape or form. Especially when Naruto was the one who gave Gaara the command to form the sand cloud so he didn't have to react to it as he knew it was coming.
Even for you, this was a reach. Take into context the situation where Edo Muu was on Naruto's side, and that if he's giving Naruto a command that means he's telling Naruto to act in his best interests. So "dodge this" means the exact same thing as "you should dodge it" in this instance.
After we escape the initial use of YN, as explained several times, the Eruption Volcano secures our team from any further use of YN by immediately erupting it which frees our team. It is simply used as added insurance.
From the above panel, we can see that TenTen has been overlooking the entire battlefield the entire time. Right before Kitsuchi was shown intercepting Kinkaku, TenTen was
We'll leave the Darui point alone, as it doesn't make a difference and it's unclear whether Darui looked away or not.
Putting Kituchi above Deidara in terms of speed is baseless? Let's not be stubborn here. Kitsuchi was a captain of the entire Shinobi Alliance Army, alongside Kakashi, Gaara, Mifune, and Darui. All extremely proficient ninja. The difference here, is that he is the captain the of Close-Range division, which obviously means he is extremely proficient in CQC, which is the style of combat that demands the most amount of reaction, execution, and body speed. Let's not put that in the same category as someone who got blitzed by Sai please. "Oh but that was aerial", Deidara could of jumped off his bird and out of the way of the attack like he did to Sasuke's shunshin blitz, but obviously couldn't.
Onoki retreats down to the ground, where Kitsuchi enforces a Doton bunker, that can be reinforced by Sakura if need be. Additionally to Icelerates strategy, Onoki can also utilized his
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for added defensive insurance. There is literally a huge shroud of smoke in the very scan you posted.
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^ In the bottom panel, we can see that the jutsu has finished as nothing is coming out of Gamabunta's mouth. They're waiting for the fire and smoke to settle so that they can see what is going on. Vision is clearly tarnished here as we only see Manda's silhouette.
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^ Top panel, all we see is the giant AoE of the Toad Oil combination that still is settling. The top composes of flames, while the middle and bottom portion is composed of smoke. Both are clearly distinguishable as complete different things, so lets not pretend that it is all just fire. Bottom right panel, and Jiraiya/Gamabunta are STILL waiting for their attack to finally settle, and for their target to be distinguishable.
Sasuke's Sharingan will not see through chakra infused fire, as well as chakra infused rock structures, so that's not aiding your team either. This attack completely backfires on your team as all it does is buy our team plenty of time to counter while remaining safe within our Doton defense(s). It takes time to finally settle, in which time, our team employs a super charged Jinton (from within our bunker) that comes at a surprise to your team, as your very attack takes away your own vision, as established. Jinton GG. Not sure what Hiruzen is aiming at with his narrow Raiton streams while he waits for the Toad Oil Fire to settle down, while our team doesn't have to wait, using a super Jinton that is executed fairly quickly. He wouldn't know what exact position our team decided to bunker down, as he's firing after the Toad Oil combination (loss of LoS), where our team will be countering after the fact. Not to mention, it isn't out of character for Iwagakure ninjas to counter similar attacks with Mobile Core as well [
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].It works perfectly on Gamabunta, because the combination takes time to initiate, as well as the duration of the jutsu itself. Kitsuchi only needs to raise a higher platform under Gamabuntas feet than the one on the Juubi to completely mess up Gamabuntas footing and aim. Example: Kitsuchi raises a high platform on Gamabuntas back legs, forcing him to aim immediately towards the ground, which may rebound around your teams vicinity considering it's large AoE.
Lol, not a chance.
Hiruzen's clones suddenly and conveniently accompanying the boss toad summons was not a part of the original premise that Zexion proposed. Icelerate's counter entailed Onoki wrecking those summons in the way Zexion used them. So if you guys are going to conveniently switch up strategies without prior specifying where and when Hiruzen's Kage Bunshins come into play here, then we will also adjust our strategy accordingly. In this case, going aerial secures the demise of Jiraiya's precious Boss Toad summons, as Onoki only needs to fire his laser Jinton or quick fire a lesser scaled Jinton [
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]. Jiraiya and the bunshins can very likely jump off the summons to avoid this, but your tactic irresponsibly left your summons defenseless in the air against an unstoppable one shot attack.What is being implied here is that momentum carries the bulk behind the destructive output of Sakura's punch. Just like Icelerate pointed out, which was conveniently danced around, Ay's momentum exceeds anything Sakura can ever wish to accomplish BY FAR. Yet, his destructive output is nowhere near that of Sakura's. It's as simple as that. CES=Chakra Enhanced Strength, and the fact is, that enhancement is extremely substantial. Far more substantial than momentum, which clearly plays a smaller factor in damage output.
The bold is incorrect considering Katsuyu channelled Byakogou chakra into the shinobi who were having their chakra absorbed by the god tree which allowed them to keep fighting.
Your second point is also incorrect because mystical palm technique works by transferring chakra into the target to heal them, which means to heal via Katsuyu, Katsuyu receives chakra from Sakura/Tsunade and then it is used to heal the target. Mystical palm technique is a chakra transfer in a delicate fashion so it is more highly advanced than just regular chakra transfer which even early part 2 Naruto could do.
Here is a DB4 translation by Turrin from NF which proves your assertion wrong.
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forums.com/posts/52197648/This fact was addressed in Beans' first post in response to Haizaki so stop recycling old argumentation when it's been countered. Again:
1- For them to actually get caught in the swamp Jiraiya would have to use YN before Sakura punches the ground, something you've failed to prove.
2- Summoning Katsuyu would just as easily allow Sakura to escape the swamp.
3- When Ice said Onoki would lighten his teammates that was obviously a reference to him making them weightless in which case they can fly upwards with enough force to break free from the swamp's pull, not like this is necessary because we literally have a scan showing Onoki pulling Aoba out of a cement trap. That exact same interaction can be applied with his rock clones pulling his teammates out of the swamp.
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And yes, in the grand scheme of things it DOES matter because a lightened person will sink slower than normal like you just admitted. This gives Onoki more time to make clones and rescue his teammates. Also mentioning that it was the smallest and most shallow swamp Jiraiya's used is irrelevant because you have no proof that the size of the swamp affects the speed at which it pulls in its targets, and there's no reason to believe it does.
@Bold because achieving flight through the lightened boulder technique is achieved by maintaining different body positions and stances:
Obviously one can't change their stance if they are focusing on gathering dust chakra between their outstretched hands so it stands to reason that to prep Jinton one must be stationary but not necessarily immobile. Not only this but look at the lengths Akatsuchi goes to just to disrupt Jinton [X], instead of bumping or shaking Onoki to disrupt the prep he literally wrenches his hands apart which goes to show prepping Jinton isn't nearly as delicate as a process as you think it is so your assertion that "Mu can't move at all while prepping Jinton" is a baseless one.
Rock clones can fly just as fast as the original. Like the DB page stated above says, maintaining different stances is how Onoki and his clones navigate through the air and not a chakra-based ability. Why exactly would Onoki's clones fail to make stances just because they don't have the chakra reserves of the original? There is no difference in punching when it comes to rock clones (bottom panel). Therefore changing stances (which require less movement and agility than the act of punching) can be achieved just as easily by rock clones as by the original Onoki.
Definitely didn't start prepping it before since it's shown Muu isn't prepping Jinton while Naruto gives a command to Gaara [X]. So the earliest Muu could have started prepping Jinton was at the same moment Gaara moved his hand which holds very very little significance to your argument since Muu had nearly completed forming his cylinder at the same moment Naruto's chakra arm hit the sand cloud, and per Muu's statement would have completed his Jinton had it not been for Naruto's second chakra arm. That's pretty f*cking fast, and with Sakura reducing prep time, the prep time becomes almost nonexistent.
Naruto's physical reaction was on par with V2 Raikage's. Please don't act like this was a significant amount of time in any was shape or form. Especially when Naruto was the one who gave Gaara the command to form the sand cloud so he didn't have to react to it as he knew it was coming.
Even for you, this was a reach. Take into context the situation where Edo Muu was on Naruto's side, and that if he's giving Naruto a command that means he's telling Naruto to act in his best interests. So "dodge this" means the exact same thing as "you should dodge it" in this instance.
After we escape the initial use of YN, as explained several times, the Eruption Volcano secures our team from any further use of YN by immediately erupting it which frees our team. It is simply used as added insurance.
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From the above panel, we can see that TenTen has been overlooking the entire battlefield the entire time. Right before Kitsuchi was shown intercepting Kinkaku, TenTen was
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. If Kitsuchi was anywhere close to that area at that moment, he would of been spotted and TenTen wouldn't only be commenting on how they were all getting destroyed by Kinkaku. This for a fact proves that Kitsuchi came from and travelled from a much farther distance than Kinkuku had to in order to hit Darui. In order to accomplish that feat, he had to be faster than Kinkuku in order to not only intercept his attack, but also assess the situation and immediately utilize his rock fist technique before Kinkaku's attack landed. This shows great traveling speed, body movement speed, reaction speed, and jutsu execution speed (Accurate with him being the captain of the Close Range Unit) especially considering it's a V2 Jin here. We'll leave the Darui point alone, as it doesn't make a difference and it's unclear whether Darui looked away or not.
Putting Kituchi above Deidara in terms of speed is baseless? Let's not be stubborn here. Kitsuchi was a captain of the entire Shinobi Alliance Army, alongside Kakashi, Gaara, Mifune, and Darui. All extremely proficient ninja. The difference here, is that he is the captain the of Close-Range division, which obviously means he is extremely proficient in CQC, which is the style of combat that demands the most amount of reaction, execution, and body speed. Let's not put that in the same category as someone who got blitzed by Sai please. "Oh but that was aerial", Deidara could of jumped off his bird and out of the way of the attack like he did to Sasuke's shunshin blitz, but obviously couldn't.
Reposting the linkless paragraphs with links
_____________________________
Paragraph 1
The bold is obviously false because manga repeatedly shows that jutsu prep is the result of chakra build up rather than change in chakra nature, and since you just clarified that neither you nor Zexion ever argued that being a KKT would make it take longer to prep, Jinton should be no different in that regard. So that whole premise can be thrown out the window when the manga explains that:
1. Changing chakra to an element is chakra control [
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]. 2. The process of controlling and manipulating chakra based on an individual technique usually occurs in the few seconds when the user makes hand seals [
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][Link not working]. 3. This argument is backed up by how
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, but didn't need time to convert his chakra into earth element. That happened during the hand seals.4. Then there's the fact that if converting chakra to an element/KKG was the reason for prep time then you'd have to argue that non-element techniques would consistently have faster execution speed then non-element techniques, an assumption supported by nothing in this manga.
Paragraph 2
1. You're attempting to discredit that feat by saying Susanoo clones are slow. Irrelevant when you take into account the
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between the clones and Gokage. Doesn't matter if they're slow, they absolutely would have interrupted the Jinton prep if Onoki was on his own. Those clones were fast enough to
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once and Tsunade
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(based on the blades sticking through their chest). It is far faster for Mei or Tsunade to dodge an attack then it is for Onoki to get off Jinton before the clones closed that short distance, yet he managed to do it.2. When did Ice use cylindrical jinton or even mention the shape of a Jinton as being relevant in this argument? He didn't, so this is mostly irrelevant. Your Katon example holds no weight when Jinton=/=Katon, and it's shown that
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have a faster execution speed than large ones, something you even admit in this paragraph so it clearly proves that regular Jinton w/ Sakura's help will be faster to prep than super Jinton w/ Sakura's help. We only needs to use regular Jinton to take out your team members.Onoki clearly had the capability to knead more chakra than what Tsunade gave him into Jinton, based on
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and her confirming that she was low on chakra. To assume what was shown in canon is Onoki's limit while ignoring the evidence pointing towards it being Tsunade, not Onoki, who had reached their limit is a fallacy. A larger super Jinton than what was shown in canon, which can also be swung around, is enough to wipe out your entire team at once. As for the last bit, I have no idea what you're talking about. Shape of jinton clearly has nothing to do with the speed of its execution as evidenced by Muu and Onoki clashing
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.Paragraph 17
@Bold because achieving flight through the lightened boulder technique is achieved by maintaining different body positions and stances:
Doton: Keijūgan no Jutsu ("Light-Weight Rock Technique)
Short-Rang, Offensive and Supplementary
To dance in the sky released from gravity's constraints
The Jutsu reduces the target's gravity. It's natural application is to enhance, naturally it's used to make the weight of the things one carries lighten, ones personal weight can also be reduced, making ones movements fast and agile. The atmosphere as well as the human body is made light, in-order to soar even through the sky. On occasion, it is popular for a person to control the jutsu's flight in the sky with specific stances (heavy paraphrased, but you get it: many users control their flight with their stance), with practice one can freely fly about in the sky.
Touching the target in an instant their gravity is taken away. The Jutsu user regulates how much (gravity) is snatched away.
The sensation of soaring through the sky is extraordinarily pleasant....
Short-Rang, Offensive and Supplementary
To dance in the sky released from gravity's constraints
The Jutsu reduces the target's gravity. It's natural application is to enhance, naturally it's used to make the weight of the things one carries lighten, ones personal weight can also be reduced, making ones movements fast and agile. The atmosphere as well as the human body is made light, in-order to soar even through the sky. On occasion, it is popular for a person to control the jutsu's flight in the sky with specific stances (heavy paraphrased, but you get it: many users control their flight with their stance), with practice one can freely fly about in the sky.
Touching the target in an instant their gravity is taken away. The Jutsu user regulates how much (gravity) is snatched away.
The sensation of soaring through the sky is extraordinarily pleasant....
Obviously one can't change their stance if they are focusing on gathering dust chakra between their outstretched hands so it stands to reason that to prep Jinton one must be stationary but not necessarily immobile. Not only this but look at the lengths Akatsuchi goes to just to disrupt Jinton [
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], instead of bumping or shaking Onoki to disrupt the prep he literally wrenches his hands apart which goes to show prepping Jinton isn't nearly as delicate as a process as you think it is so your assertion that "Mu can't move at all while prepping Jinton" is a baseless one.Rock clones can fly just as fast as the original. Like the DB page stated above says, maintaining different stances is how Onoki and his clones navigate through the air and not a chakra-based ability. Why exactly would Onoki's clones fail to make stances just because they don't have the chakra reserves of the original? There is no difference in
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when it comes to rock clones (
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). Therefore changing stances (which require less movement and agility than the act of punching) can be achieved just as easily by rock clones as by the original Onoki.Paragraph 18
Definitely didn't start prepping it before since it's shown Muu isn't prepping Jinton while Naruto gives a command to Gaara [
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]. So the earliest Muu could have started prepping Jinton was at the same moment Gaara moved his hand which holds very very little significance to your argument since Muu had nearly completed forming his cylinder at the same moment Naruto's chakra arm hit the sand cloud, and per Muu's
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would have completed his Jinton had it not been for Naruto's second chakra arm. That's pretty f*cking fast, and with Sakura reducing prep time, the prep time becomes almost nonexistent.Naruto's physical reaction was on par with V2 Raikage's. Please don't act like this was a significant amount of time in any was shape or form. Especially when Naruto was the one who gave Gaara the command to form the sand cloud so he didn't have to react to it as he knew it was coming.
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