3 on 3: KG, Haizaki and Zexion~ vs. Forbidden Technique, Beans2, and Icelerate
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What? Who said that Jinton being a KKT means that it takes longer to prep? Zexion only stated that it was a KKT, not that it being a KKT is why it takes longer to prep so most of this is irrelevant. Then there's the fact that Gudo Dama are weapons that can be shape-shifted, not Ninjutsu that needs to be created via the build up process. He also stated that Jinton's long build up time is likely because of the part of the creation of the jutsu where you need to change your chakra to dust release. Not because of chakra.
Sure. The prep of Jinton is faster than Madara's Susanoo clones. However:
1. Those clones aren't fast at all. [
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] Those clones that he outsped are the same ones he used heavyweight jutsu on when he saved Ay from them. So there's no real measure that shows that Jinton's prep time is erased from Sakura pumping chakra into his body. 2. The rest is based on too little to use as an argument. Using the cylindrical Jinton doesn't mean that the prep will be faster than what was shown for Super Jinton by an amount that would actually matter in the grand scheme of things. Is the difference in build up time for Madara's Juubi Sized Katon, Madara's regular giant Katon and Itachi or Sasuke's fireball jutsu large enough to notice any kind of major difference? No, they aren't. The same concept applies here.
And Onoki being given more chakra doesn't mean that he has the capability to knead such chakra into a much larger Jinton than what was used in canon, which is why despite having enormous pools of chakra the Bijuu Dama can't pool 100% of their power into a Bijuu Dama whether it's a combination attack or not.
And btw, as seen by comparing Mu and Onoki's cylindrical Jinton during the War and Onoki's cube Jinton during the Kage Summit arc, the latter is faster than the larger variant, but obviously much smaller while the larger variant takes longer to prepare. So using a cylinder super Jinton will factually take much longer than it would to use a cube Super Jinton. Though none of this will get off in the first place so it doesn't matter too much.
Full Sized Toads are tiers stronger than Gai in physical power, so why do you automatically assume that there is no way a toad can block Kisame's strike even though there are scans of the toad doing so? Your reasoning for why Kisame didn't use his full strength or anywhere close to it also don't make sense.
1. The fact that Samehada isn't a blade that slices is precisely why more force needs to be put behind the blade for it to sever Naruto's limbs. Samehada was stated to "cut someone to ribbons" not "saw off limbs" two completely different processes and even if it did, you need more effort to sever a limb with a saw type weapon than you would with a sharp blade.
2. Lmao. Bold is ridiculous. After his strike is blocked he'd stop applying all that pressure or once the summon vanishes he'd simply keep his sword up instead of letting it fall to the ground given the amount of time that passed in between his strike being blocked and the summon being called back. Maybe if the summoning had vanished a split second after Kisame's strike this would make sense.
Jiraiya was able to summon before Kisame could swing down his saw like sword with enough power to sever Naruto's limbs. That's not slow regardless of whether or not he swung it as fast as he possibly could. Definitely better than saying Kitsuchi can outspeed Jiraiya's one hand sign with Mobile Core given there are no speed feats for Kitsuchi that are actually worth anything.
There is no metric that lets you assume the bold. Yomi Numa and Summoning Jutsu aren't even close to being the same kind of jutsu so how does one being larger in volume than the other mean that Yomi Numa uses more chakra or takes a longer time to use than Yomi Numa? Where have you even seen any notable build up for any summoning jutsu no matter the size of the creature being summoned? Nowhere.
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Just an assumption based on shaky evidence that doesn't even correlate.Susanoo and Amaterasu are two completely different jutsu as well. Susanoo uses far more chakra than Amaterasu and causes far more strain yet Susanoo can be activated faster than lightning can crash into Itachi yet there is a build up time for Amaterasu. So yeah, this is bad logic to use.
And Haizaki said that Jiraiya can either turn around OR someone else can hide his hand seals, like Sasuke. Even if Jiraiya had to turn around, summoning jutsu is a longer process than Yomi Numa when it comes to hand seals (biting the hands then bending down and slapping the ground vs. making a hand sign from whatever position you are currently in) So I think it's safe to say that this following process:
1. Punch ground & Mobile Core.
2. Jumping on boulders to get off ground level
Isn't happening before Jiraiya makes a single hand sign. I also find it funny how you guys are starting off with this strategy in the first place when your team will have no idea what jutsu is being used to have Sakura preemptively punch the ground so they can get off of ground level. That is the point of hiding hand seals. Don't say "full intel" because full intel isn't the same as being able to predict each and every move your opponent will make nor does Jiraiya being covered tell them automatically that Yomi Numa is about to be used.
So Yomi Numa is used, Sakura and Kitsuchi get caught and Hiruzen, Sasuke and Jiraiya close the distance and wipe you guys out. Even Mobile Core won't get off first since there's no real reason to believe that Kitsuchi and slap the ground before Jiraiya uses Yomi Numa. At least none of that you guys have provided.
Lmao I can't believe you are actually trying to carry on with this reach of a point. Not only did
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, but we've seen the aftermath of Sakura's punch and it doesn't even come close to doing what you are saying it'd do. [
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. The ground is cracked and fragmented, but there are no giant boulders around for them to jump on top of.That impact she made when she jumped and hit the ground is a pointless scan to reference because she was only able to make an impact that large after jumping and then hitting the ground with the momentum gained from said fall. An off the fly punch to the ground isn't going to create an impact any where near that level.
Also that strategy that Tazilla tried to use in our argument isn't going to work here. Not only will you guys not be outside of the swamp, (thus traveling around it is unnecessary) but a Katon/Fuuton combination from Hiruzen and his clone would evaporate Katsuyu if she turned into her liquid form and spread across the area like that.
Then we have the fact that the boulders will still be on top of the ground that becomes the swamp thus they will sink along with your team. Then we have the fact that your team won't be able to create boulders via Sakura's punch and jump on it before Yomi Numa is used as being able to do that would simply mean that they could evade the jutsu, and I could go on and on about how that isn't possible as Sakura won't even punch the ground before the jutsu is used let alone do that, and jump on the boulders.
But even if Kitsuchi can use Mobile Core faster than Yomi Numa can be used, Sasuke simply summoning Manda or any large sized generic snake under them would push them up and outside of the hole in an instant so Onoki doesn't have time to rescue Sakura and Kitsuchi before we're all up in his grill.
Summoning Katsuyu obviously does nothing. If she summons it under her it'll fall right into the swamp and be submerged on contact. Summoning it elsewhere doesn't let Sakura escape the swamp either for obvious reasons. Naruto and Gamabunta are obviously a completely different case, because Bunta's summoning broke apart the sand. Katsuyu's summoning does nothing as she'll summon her on top of a swamp that'll be much deeper than the one Jiraiya made while drugged. She gets sunk. This literally yields the same results as summoning it on top of a deep body of water. And on the off chance you were correct about this, when her and Kitsuchi jump into the air they'll have to deal with Hiruzen and Jiraiya's Raiton/Toad Oil Flame Bomb, which they can't dodge while in mid air.
But this isn't going to happen regardless. In a shallow swamp while hanging upside down Human Path (Or animal path?) was almost halfway submerged let alone Sakura not hanging upside down in a swamp from a 100% Base Jiraiya instead of the swamp he called puny. [
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] You also seem to be confused when it comes to how Yomi Numa works.
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If you were to step in deep water would you slowly sink into said water or would you be plunged down below surface until you tried to swim back up? The latter would take place, and the same goes for Yomi Numa here. Meaning no hand signs to summon her slug.They are clearly shown to be flying at the same speed covering the same distance side by side in that scan so there's no way one is faster than the other.
Deidara evaded once, he can't do that consistently as he eventually got caught by Gaara's sand attacks and then there's the fact that the difference in area of effect between the attacks Deidara dodged in that panel and what Jiraiya and Hiruzen can produce is large so them being guided doesn't really help your case and the distance is only 40 meters. And you have 2 other teammates to worry about besides Onoki so Onoki being able to evade doesn't mean that Sakura and Kitsuchi will, and they die but he lives then your team is finished. That's not even taking into account the fact that we won't be 40 meters away the entire fight. I've seen nothing yet for them evading this besides weak logic like "they are linear and not guided thus Onoki can dodge them" despite that not taking into account the length or the width of these jutsu along with the starting distance.
And Onoki's rock clones being able to move as fast as him are based on nothing. Rock Clones aren't shadow clones, nothing says that they are equal to the origina
Why would we be caught off guard? What major smoke is present in this scan after the jutsu has been used long enough to cover up the use of Jinton?
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None. Not to mention Sharingan can see through
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walls so smoke that isn't infused with chakra isn't going to blind Sasuke's vision. If an earth bunker is used in response to the firing of the Katon Hiruzen immediately follows up with 2 Raiton Streams to rip through their Earth Bunker and either:A. Kill them as they won't be able to see or sense the attack coming due to being behind the bunker, and making holes to see lets the flame through. They'll have little time to dodge too since they can't move until after the flame has died out while Hiruzen can fire before the flame has completely died out.
B. Force them to scatter or dodge, meaning Jinton doesn't happen in that breath.
That worked well with the Juubi because it stands on two legs and is tall and it's Bijuu Dama's AoE isn't large until it explodes. The same can't be said for Gamabunta and Jiraiya's oil or Hiruzen's elemental attacks. Not to mention he can't make everyone misfire at the same time so this doesn't even matter. Onoki being relatively close despite him flying only makes it worse for him when it comes to evasion.
But once again Kitsuchi and Sakura get stuck in the swamp so this can't happen regardless.
That's why Hiruzen's clones can accompany the toads, preventing Onoki from blitzing and taking them out as to do so he'll have to be able to maneuver around Hiruzen's large scale elemental Raiton from close-mid range, which he won't be able to do. So he either gets shot down or he is forced to retreat. This also means that he isn't using Jinton while Sakura and Kitsuchi are left with Sasuke, Jiraiya, Hiruzen's clone and the original. Without Onoki's help they don't stand a chance of defeating these 3. Their best bet is to try and use Mountain Sandwich in an attempt to take them out in one go, but the distance of 40m will be much shorter as the battle has actually started. They easily close the barely existent distance and turn this into a CQC/Mid range fight, which my team dominates in. Sakura is strong in close combat, but Hiruzen's moveset lets him easily keep her at bay from mid range, or Sasuke can just take her out in close range due to his Chidori Katana and his skill and reflexes. Kitsuchi is also strong in CQC, but Hiruzen's Raiton hard counters Doton offenses and defenses along with Sasuke's Chidori and Chidori Spear nor will he have time to use anything like Mobile Core as long as either Sasuke and a Hiruzen clone are all over him.
So yeah, Onoki flying up to deal with boss toads means his team dies. Though the battle wouldn't ever get this far to begin with.
Addressed below and above.
CES-Chakra ENHANCED Strength. Lightening her makes her punches weak just like they did to Ay's. As shown by Sakura's usage of said technique the more momentum behind her punch=more power, meaning that the normal workings of a punch and how it deals damage still apply here. [
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] [
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] [
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] That's also why messing with her muscles let him disable her super strength, because it's not just chakra creating that power. It's chakra enhancing her natural strength. Also:
All that scan states is that chakra is gathered in the fist, not that chakra is gathered and then released to create an explosion type effect. So lightened Sakura would have weak punches.
Addressed this above and below.
Boost? I hope you don't mean enhance Ninjutsu, because the only thing that can be channeled through Katsuyu is the Mystical Palm Technique as shown by the Manga, which is Medical Ninjutsu. Not Byakugo's ability to enhance Ninja with excess chakra. Not a thing in this Manga supports this claim of yours and no, being able to channel Mystical Palm Technique doesn't equate to Katsuyu being a remote receiver for anything chakra related for Tsunade.
Communications is a legit argument, but it doesn't really matter.
Onoki lightening his teammates doesn't matter. Yomi Numa actively pulls it's captives inside.
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You can see Human Path on top of the ceiling, thus he was upside down meaning gravity is pulling him down. Yet when Yomi Numa is used he partially sinks into the swamp, and that was the smallest and most shallow swamp Jiraiya has ever made let alone the one he used against the giant snakes. So if Yomi Numa is used and they get caught they'll sink regardless of being lightened. Sure, will they sink as fast? No, but in the grand scheme of things it doesn't really matter.
If you don't have a scan of Kitsuchi using this or being stated to use this technique then it'd be wise not to even go there. Doton Clones and Doton Walls are not the same technique. Doton Walls were stated to be a very basic technique because it had to be a jutsu anyone could master in an instant. [
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] Doton Clones were not and Kitsuchi being more proficient than someone like Ino or Choji or Shikamaru doesn't mean that he's allowed to get a more proficient jutsu because he knows the seals.Addressed. Btw, they aren't completely weightless. Lightweight=/=Weightless.
Mu can't move at all while prepping Jinton, so why would a clone moving him be a loop hole for this fact? Nonetheless , even if someone physically moving Onoki lets him be mobile, his clones haven't shown physical speed on par with his own and they aren't shadow clones thus the chances of you guys proving that our long and wide ranged attacks are dodged go from 0 to -10. :lol And your chakra boost does nothing for the prep time of Jinton as explained above.
No. When Mu is shown he's already shown with a cylinder in his hands. This is the beginning stage of Jinton. [
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] So either he started preparing Jinton a second time before or while Gaara created his sand cloud and before Naruto leaped off of it or it was slower because he had already gathered up some of the chakra for the jutsu.Bold makes no sense, because Naruto's reaction being fast doesn't mean that his physical action is as quick. He had to fire his chakra arm towards the cloud to push himself up. So that time is absolutely not negligible. Naruto was able to freefall from over 10m away before Mu could prepare and fire off Jinton. The chakra arm feat isn't a good feat either as explained.
He said "dodge this", implying that Naruto would be able to dodge in that position. He never said "you should dodge it", and if the chakra already being prepared means that the second go around took less time, then it means the time it took for him to charge up Jinton before being interrupted and after is the real prep time for Jinton, and that is hilariously easy for my team to exploit when Onoki has to waste time trying to save his own team from Yomi Numa.
That's a bad counter to Yomi Numa considering if it's ever used Kitsuchi gets caught, so he won't be able to use this jutsu to erupt the swamp in the first place. All it does is erase the first swamp that was used which doesn't help or hurt anyone in this match up.
That's an off panel interception feat, which almost means nothing. You don't know when Kitsuchi started moving or where he started moving from to gauge this speed feat and I can show you a million different feats like this. So no, he's obviously not faster than a cloaked Kinkaku unless you can show that they left at the same time, but Kitsuchi was able to travel farther/faster than Kinkaku did, and Kinkaku never escaped Darui's LoS. Darui was behind a giant rock when that happened.
-He looked, saw Kinkaku.
-He looked away.
-He looked back and Kinkaku was gone.
If Kinkaku had moved while Darui was looking at him and Darui had the same reaction this point would make sense. As for the rest...come on, you have to be joking. Taijutsu skill and speed are not the same thing. Tsunade's Taijutsu skill far surpasses Sasuke's yet Sasuke is easily faster than she is w/ or without the help of the Sharingan as shown by feats and the databook scores. Deidara isn't a slow character as he has a 4.5 in the databook. [
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] Kitsuchi has no impressive speed feats based on what you've posted here while Deidara has reacted, albeit with trouble, to Sasuke (one of the fastest characters in the Manga when it comes to Shunshin outside of god tiers) twice in a row. Putting Kinkaku above Deidara literally has no basis. Deidara isn't slow, in close quarters he had issues with Sasuke's speed. Kitsuchi won't be blitzed obviously but he'll have issues nonetheless.
You shouldn't have bothered with the speed analysis if you weren't going to include real speed feats.
1.
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2.
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In between these two panels is a time where Kitsuchi easily could've been moving. You can't show that he wasn't so saying he traveled from the distance he was last shown at to the Gedo Mazo before the Gedo Mazo could stomp out Shikamaru and Darui is conjecture.
Ok.
Ok.
No. What type of logic is that? The force behind an attack isn't the only thing that determines how far the receiver of said force gets sent flying. The weight of the person being hit is also a major factor and a giant Juubi clone definitely weighs far more than Kabuto does.
How does this even put her speed on a completely different level than Tsunade's? Tsunade said she wouldn't go easy, not that she'd come at her with the intent to kill. Base Tsunade is fast enough to rush Naruto, grab his Kunai by slipping it through the finger hole and then flick him in his head so there's no way that Sakura at that time can completely evade a 100% serious Tsunade. Not going easy=/=Not holding back a bit. Base Yin Seal Sakura would be lucky to be on par or a little bit above Tsunade in speed let alone on a completely different level.
No, the distance between her and Naruto and Sasuke and the Juubi form Kaguya is extremely relevant. From that distance it was hard for top speedsters to react. Not a distance dramatically different. Is it a good feat? Sure. One worth mentioning? Not really because it doesn't prove her superiority to anyone here in terms of reaction speed except for maybe Hiruzen.
@bold: The Juubi feat doesn't matter, because size isn't reason for you to compare the Juubi's speed and the Rabbit Monster's chakra arm speed.
Naruto and Co. had to deal with shockwaves and smoke and dust blocking their view of the Juubi right before it attacked them. [
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] So no, this doesn't put Sakura's reaction speed on par with Kakashi's. Even if there was no visual obstruction and the Juubi 100% speed blitzed Naruto and co, the fact that the Juubi can do that against people like Killer B and BM Naruto and Kakashi means that it's far faster than a chakra arm that can't do that to Sakura, who isn't faster (or as fast as) than Kakashi and isn't even on the same tier of reaction speed as BM Naruto. Not even close.An irrelevant feat.
1. You don't know how large that explosion was.
2. You don't know how fast the ball was.
3. You don't know how far Sakura was from that guy.
How strong it is doesn't matter when talking about speed.
So no, this isn't a feat that trumps what Kakashi and Sasuke did there and have done in general. Especially Kakashi since a distraction and a point blank attack, near point blank anyway, were both needed just to barely hit him with the jutsu.
And don't try to correlate explosion size with the size of the ball itself. That's inconsistent and depends on the power of the user, and this guy only has a fraction of Naruto's power. Oh and btw, the excerpt from the novel states that the ball expanded to have a diameter of 1 meter and then it blasted towards Sakura and hit half her body and sent her flying through the forest. Where does it say that the explosion is what hit half of her body? It wouldn't even make sense for that to be the explosion considering it fired straight ahead. If she evaded the ball completely then it would've soared past her and exploded elsewhere behind her.
So this is a terrible feat to mention in defense of her speed.
Your speed analysis is flawed. Are they faster than Hiruzen? Yes. Jiraiya? No. He also has a 4.5, and that ranks body movement speed and reaction speed, so either he's exceptional in both or very exceptional in one or the other, but it really doesn't matter.
And there is zero evidence that Sakura and Kitsuchi would be faster than Sasuke w/ the speed enhancement from being lightened. None at all. Especially Kitsuchi since your entire section about him was based on off-panel interception feats.
If you guys aren't in the swamp then there is no real reason for Sasuke to try and rush on his own, and I agree that there is no way he'll cross the distance before Sakura can transfer chakra to Kitsuchi. However your use of that DB scan is bad. The scan doesn't state it can be any size, it states that it can get larger if more chakra is added, not that it's size is variable based on how much chakra is put in. Rasengan can get larger based on the amount of chakra put it, but it never gets smaller than the standard size for that user.
Not to mention that scan also says "With a chakra handout from Naruto it can even trap the Gedo Mazo", meaning it's poorly translated considering Naruto never handed him chakra against the Gedo Mazo or even against the Juubi for him to use Mountain Sandwhich. Should you really be using terrible translations to prove your points? I think not.
And btw how is Kitsuchi making it on top of the volcano he created without my team murking him as described above and below? How does not being able to make the volcano mud change the fact that he can make the ground below it mud? Not like that's necessary but I'm just curious. And what Doton is he going to use while on his volcano? Most of the Doton you've mentioned, or rather all of them,
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the user to make
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with the
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. The Mountain is not the ground so how will he use Earth Sandwich and Mobile Core and whatnot to attack/defend/hinder our team? He won't, that's how.Lmao. Who is nitpicking? You guys suggested a strategy and it was addressed. Nothing more to it. Jinton doesn't extend farther than the Mountain or as far as it thus Jinton can't be used in an attempt to block off all escape routes, and Mountain Sandwich or Super Jinton never get off. Btw the circle created by the Jinton's blow is how you can determine it's size as Onoki simply made it and spun around in a circle to wreck the flower world.
Kirin taking longer to prep than Mountain Sandwich or Jinton doesn't matter because they won't be able to prep and finish either of these techniques due to our opening act.
I also don't know if you are doing this on purpose or on accident, but you should really stop misconstruing the arguments of the post you counter. Where did Zex say Sasuke outright solos or blitzes Kitsuchi and Sakura in a head on match? He stated multiple times that the only reason such a scenario would ever take place is because you guys would be stuck in the swamp.
Uh, no. Onoki is in the air according to you guys. If Kitsuchi and Sakura are trapped in the swamp Sasuke charges. If not then he isn't charging them let alone by himself. How is Onoki going to use Mobile Core while in mid air and then follow up fast enough w/ Jinton to actually hit Sasuke?
He won't. That's how.
Moving at the same time=/=Moving at the same speed. Come on Ice. :lol
When Jiraiya used Toad Oil Flame bomb they didn't see Manda actually enter the ground.
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As stated multiple times TOFB will be used, and when that happens Manda uses the flame as a cover to dive underground (since you guys won't be able to see due to your own shield on top of the flame blocking your VIEWS anyway) thus you'll have no idea where he is nor will you know of his presence at all if Sasuke summons Manda as your vision is cloaked by our attack and your shield.So this almost guarantees that someone either gets picked off by a surprise attack and nulls any points about the volcano jutsu. Btw, if Sakura and Kitsuchi (he can't do this one alone) are using this technique to expel Manda (even assuming that they knew he dove underground) then you'd be leaving yourselves open for TOFB and Hiruzen's Raiton x 2 or 3 considering Earth Sandwich and Super Jinton won't be happening while the Volcano is being used. If Onoki tries to step in to help he dies because he won't be able to prep Jinton in time nor is he fast enough to grab them and then fly out of range.
1. Ok.
2. Addressed.
3. Not really as explained below.
4. No, because Kitsuchi and Sakura will be trapped in a swamp and finished off by Hiruzen or Sasuke while clones from Hiruzen and Jiraiya make sure Onoki never gets a Jinton off. Even if you guys weren't in the swamp, we have 3 members, and 1 of them can make 5 clones. Lol if you think all 8 of our heads are needed to stop Onoki from prepping Jinton.
No, Deidara prepared the hand sign first. Deidara initialized the jutsu after Ittan used Mobile Core. Then we have the fact that Deidara was clearly waiting for a cue from Sasori to use his jutsu. We've already seen how fast Deidara can make his bombs explode so this was a bad point to make unless you think Ittan can use Mobile Core faster than Deidara can blow up a bomb despite Deidara being able to do so before Sasuke can hit him from
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, who is far faster than Ittan.Thus Deidara's explosion occurs faster than Mobile Core. Your argument leads one to believe that Ittan was able to bend down and slap his hands into the ground before Deidara could mentally initiate (already had the hand sign made) a C1 explosion. :lol
Addressed this above.
Onoki's Jutsu doesn't make weight 0.
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Even with the ultra lightweight jutsu he needed Gaara's help to stop the Meteor, not to mention that post was referring to her flying alongside Onoki. She is slower in flight than him as shown by the scan Zexion posted of the Shinobi being unable to keep up with Onoki despite being lightened by the same jutsu as him.
Lmao bro what? He clearly only used 3. Not 5.
-1 Dragon breaks through and almost hits Itachi, he dodges. [
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] -Another Dragon breaks through the ceiling and Itachi dodges it. [
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]-Final Dragon hits his arm and burns it.
That anime clip clarifies and reinforces what is shown in the Manga though that shouldn't be necessary.
Sasuke created Kirin to kill Itachi and was about to use it in some form against Team 7, so I think it's safe to say that Sasuke didn't make a jutsu he'd be unable to use unless he was on top of a Mountain unless he can somehow see the future to realize that he'd end up fighting Itachi on a Mountain.
Amaterasu not being here doesn't affect the prep time of the jutsu, it only affects the amount of clouds formed. Less clouds=Weaker Jutsu. They'll still form in the same general timeframe as shown in the Manga, which is a few seconds since Itachi and Sasuke only traded a few words back and forth before the thunderstorm started. Why even talk about time when you guys can't kill our team before any of this happens? Then we have the fact that we are in an area where there is a forest practically at arm's reach. Hiruzen can make 5 clones for multitasking like mentioned in both posts. While 2-3 clones+original fight your team the leftovers can set the forest on fire with Giant Katon, thus (unnecessarily) increasing Kirin's power.
And no, even w/o Amaterasu's heat Kirin is at least a few times stronger than any Raiton Sasuke can use on his own and a well placed Chidori would kill everyone on this team let alone dozens of lightning bolts at least on par with that, likely far stronger, being guided through the skulls of these 3. Please don't even try to entertain the notion of Kitsuchi and Onoki of all people being able to take a direct hit from this and live.
Also, it's only stated that Sasuke will rush you guys if you are stuck in the swamp and we've already stated multiple times that he can use Katon right before charging or while charging so this doesn't even matter. Kirin being more prep than Jinton doesn't matter either because we have 2 other people (more like 6 because of Hiruzen) there to prevent it from getting off.
Final Statement On How Your Team Dies
1: Match starts off and Yomi Numa is used.
2: Your team can't predict it being used so Sakura punching the ground is a strategy that never takes place nor did you guys have any other plausible counters in place for this jutsu, thus you guys get caught.
3: We don't get dragged down via Mobile Core because Kitsuchi can't bend down and slap the ground with his hands faster than Jiraiya can make a hand sign regardless of Sasuke (also far faster than Kitsuchi) having to cover his view as I've explained above. Even if we did a simple summoning jutsu to call Manda, giant snakes or Bunta pushes them up to the top depending on how large the hole is.
-Most of the strategies relating to using Super Jinton or Earth Sandwich never take place because there has been no good counter for Yomi Numa at the start of this match. Hell, most of the things we've talked about don't even happen because of that simple fact. Even if the swamp is taken care of like I said above, you guys won't have the opportunity to prepare anything.
4: Sasuke fires his Katon into the air, Hiruzen makes 5 clones, 3 + Jiraiya to attack your teammates and the rest to set the forest (remember our
From here on out Onoki is on his own as my team's long range attacks such as [
Hiruzen is listed at 1.631 m in height on the wiki/databook, divide that by 40 and you get around 25, a little less than that. Less than 25 lines equal to Hiruzen's height would cover 40m. I'm not going to take time to draw them all out by hand but I'm sure it can be agreed that you can fit more than 25 lines on that scan thus Hiruzen's jutsu extend past 40m. Also for Toad Oil Flame Bomb, Bunta is listed at 17 meters. [
Thus Hiruzen and Jiraiya's jutsu extend a distance larger than that of our starting distance here and like I said above, we'll have 3 Hiruzen using jutsu on this scale. Don't argue that Onoki will make clones, lighten both, and pull them out of the swamp all before Hiruzen can make a hand sign and fire off these jutsu.
-Thunderstorm starts and then Kirin one shots if we aren't able to take out all 3 of your teammates with our regular offensive jutsu alone.
2: Your team can't predict it being used so Sakura punching the ground is a strategy that never takes place nor did you guys have any other plausible counters in place for this jutsu, thus you guys get caught.
S/N: On the very very off chance you guys can escape (highly unlikely) using that boulder strategy (lol) and manages to use Mobile Core to drop us down deep into the earth then the whole ordeal your team goes through to avoid Yomi Numa gives my team more than enough time to close the 40m distance and attack:
Alt. 0. A summoning jutsu from Sasuke or Jiraiya easily pushes our team above the core, and like I've established Hiruzen's jutsu are far beyond 40m in length so my team doesn't even need to move from their initial positions to reach your team. Also I don't recall Kitsuchi having any feats to drop the earth so low that a boss summon/bijuu sized creature won't stand as tall or taller than it. The only mobile core that surpassed that size is the one he used w/ the other Doton users in the alliance. [
Alt. 1. Hiruzen's elemental jutsu. As shown below the range they cover is greater than that of a 40m distance let alone the distance after our team actually starts to move towards your own.
Alt. 2. Sasuke will fire his Katon to the atmosphere while charging as mentioned previously by Haizaki and Zexion.
Alt. 3. Jiraiya will call Gamabunta and he'll add to Hiruzen's assault using Toad Oil Flame Bomb. So not only are you guys attacked by 3 giant elemental attacks that you can't block (Raiton>>Doton), but you have Jiraiya's flame which dwarfs a Bijuu sized summon in width and length to deal with, and based on your counter strategy for Yomi Numa:
Alt. 0. A summoning jutsu from Sasuke or Jiraiya easily pushes our team above the core, and like I've established Hiruzen's jutsu are far beyond 40m in length so my team doesn't even need to move from their initial positions to reach your team. Also I don't recall Kitsuchi having any feats to drop the earth so low that a boss summon/bijuu sized creature won't stand as tall or taller than it. The only mobile core that surpassed that size is the one he used w/ the other Doton users in the alliance. [
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] Ittan's Mobile Core isn't anywhere near that large and Kitsuchi being stronger than Ittan isn't evidence that his Mobile Core will be so much larger that he can make this strategy invalid so I don't want to see you guys claim that. Don't use Sakura as an excuse either, because then she'll have to abandon punching the ground to help with a mobile core, and that punch is the only attempted rebuttal you guys have for Yomi Numa. So anyway, like Zexion and Haizaki have already stated my team begins an all out assault on you guys, what I'll do now is simply expand upon that.Alt. 1. Hiruzen's elemental jutsu. As shown below the range they cover is greater than that of a 40m distance let alone the distance after our team actually starts to move towards your own.
Alt. 2. Sasuke will fire his Katon to the atmosphere while charging as mentioned previously by Haizaki and Zexion.
Alt. 3. Jiraiya will call Gamabunta and he'll add to Hiruzen's assault using Toad Oil Flame Bomb. So not only are you guys attacked by 3 giant elemental attacks that you can't block (Raiton>>Doton), but you have Jiraiya's flame which dwarfs a Bijuu sized summon in width and length to deal with, and based on your counter strategy for Yomi Numa:
You guys will be in mid air unable to block these techniques with Doton and unable to evade due to the sheer AoE of these techniques. As for what happens if you survive that initial attack? That's all covered in the main portion of the post in my counters.
3: We don't get dragged down via Mobile Core because Kitsuchi can't bend down and slap the ground with his hands faster than Jiraiya can make a hand sign regardless of Sasuke (also far faster than Kitsuchi) having to cover his view as I've explained above. Even if we did a simple summoning jutsu to call Manda, giant snakes or Bunta pushes them up to the top depending on how large the hole is.
-Most of the strategies relating to using Super Jinton or Earth Sandwich never take place because there has been no good counter for Yomi Numa at the start of this match. Hell, most of the things we've talked about don't even happen because of that simple fact. Even if the swamp is taken care of like I said above, you guys won't have the opportunity to prepare anything.
4: Sasuke fires his Katon into the air, Hiruzen makes 5 clones, 3 + Jiraiya to attack your teammates and the rest to set the forest (remember our
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) on fire. From here on out Onoki is on his own as my team's long range attacks such as [
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] will force Onoki to evade thus he won't be able to free his teammates. Note that the distance between Hiruzen and the statue is greater than 40 meters. The statue was going to kill the shinobi on the ground with these jutsu so obviously they reach all across the distance between Hiruzen and Mini SS. Hiruzen used the same exact jutsu.Hiruzen is listed at 1.631 m in height on the wiki/databook, divide that by 40 and you get around 25, a little less than that. Less than 25 lines equal to Hiruzen's height would cover 40m. I'm not going to take time to draw them all out by hand but I'm sure it can be agreed that you can fit more than 25 lines on that scan thus Hiruzen's jutsu extend past 40m. Also for Toad Oil Flame Bomb, Bunta is listed at 17 meters. [
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] This is Toad Oil Flame Bomb. [
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] I don't even need to go into how much longer than 40m this jutsu is in terms of length, and how close it is to 40m in terms of width.Thus Hiruzen and Jiraiya's jutsu extend a distance larger than that of our starting distance here and like I said above, we'll have 3 Hiruzen using jutsu on this scale. Don't argue that Onoki will make clones, lighten both, and pull them out of the swamp all before Hiruzen can make a hand sign and fire off these jutsu.
-Thunderstorm starts and then Kirin one shots if we aren't able to take out all 3 of your teammates with our regular offensive jutsu alone.
That's 2 paths. One where Yomi Numa was successful and one where Yomi Numa was unsuccessful. Not saying that this is how the battle goes down no matter what. Based on the counters you've provided this is what happens.
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Forbidden Technique
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Brother Numpsay
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For the sake of the reader, i think team debates shouldn't be allowed anymore. Look at that KG post. It'd take me like 5 days to read it. Like Heeeeeeeeeeeeell no (like black woman say with that funny accent in tv)
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It was long but it was the last post. It had to cover everything because we don't get a chance to respond to what the last debater says, no one likes being in such a position where they don't get to address certain points.
Lol it follows up what we previously said so if you've been following this debate, it won't take you as long to read because it just solidifies what we've been saying. It would only take long to counter because of the strong points there.
Don't understand why people say these are that long, cut each post in half seeing as half of them are quoted arguments you don't need to truly read again and the whole thing comes out to 30 pages (in word) idk about you but I can read 30 pages in a lovecraft book in just about if not a little less than an hour, and this is word pages with normal font so its about 30 pages in a goosebumps book :lol
KidGamer65
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Obviously because your speed point is irrelevant, inaccurate, flawed beyond belief and doesn't affect this match up even in any moderate way, shape or form. :lol
KidGamer65
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Ironic coming from the guy who typed that speed "analysis" up. Quote me again when you are done whining.
I've only read the first three arguments and I'm leaning towards Team 1 as of right now because some of Beans2's arguments were somewhat contradictory and a display of imprudence. Then again, I've only read the first three arguments, so that could change, but I think Hizaiki and Zexion did a superb job and majority of what Beans2 presented is what I'd consider a cogent argument outside of a few mistakes that I observed.
However, I know that it's habitual for debaters to compile a very thorough and extensive argument, but having to read all of these things can be very strenuous and perplexing having to connect every single detail together. I'd prefer it that at least for team debates that there should be a word limit (debaters should reach a consensus for this) because I felt as if some of the information presented was superfluous. Constructing a more concise and thorough argument at times would've seemed to be better IMO. I think Beans2 actually did the best in that regard.
But who am I kidding. At the end of the day, I'm still going to scrutinize everything and give a thorough judgement, it's just that it'll be a very wearisome task. Just my input as of right now though.
However, I know that it's habitual for debaters to compile a very thorough and extensive argument, but having to read all of these things can be very strenuous and perplexing having to connect every single detail together. I'd prefer it that at least for team debates that there should be a word limit (debaters should reach a consensus for this) because I felt as if some of the information presented was superfluous. Constructing a more concise and thorough argument at times would've seemed to be better IMO. I think Beans2 actually did the best in that regard.
But who am I kidding. At the end of the day, I'm still going to scrutinize everything and give a thorough judgement, it's just that it'll be a very wearisome task. Just my input as of right now though.