100% proof(manga pages) edo hashirama was complete and perfect

[Icelerate]

1. Orochimaru could have killed Hiruzen from the very beginning

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2. When Hiruzen was stuck inside Hashirama's mokuton, Orochimaru and neither of his puppets did anything to finish him off.

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3. Throughout the fight, Orochimaru, Hashirama and Tobirama took turns in attacking Hiruzen as opposed to them attacking him all at once.

4. Hiruzen gets kicked and it takes a while for him to get up and recover but Orochimaru uses that opportunity to taunt Hiruzen.

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I must give Hiruzen credit for blowing Hashirama and Tobirama's legs off but we know now that with Hashirama's remarkable healing abilities as well as the ability to grow wood out of his body, a mere explosive tag would do squat.

5. Hiruzen was stuck in Bringer of Darkness for a while and Orochimaru allowed him to activate the seals for the RDS and even told Hiruzen to "show me this jutsu". Orochimaru even commented to hurry up and show the jutsu to me while saying are you going to let these former Hokage slowly beat you up to death as they toy with you. In other words, Orochimaru and his edos were toying around with Hiruzen and could have easily killed him but Orochimaru wanted to see this final jutsu so he allowed Hiruzen to get pounced around to cause him misery but he did not want to kill him just yet.

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6. Tobirama and Hashirama were standing there like statues when Hiruzen grabbed them and didn't bother countering in anyway because Orochimaru wanted to see what jutsu Hiruzen was going to use.

 

[LegendaryAce]

hiruzen #1 people just needs to come to term with it. You cant erase what kishi did that would mean that the manga it self is not accurate.

Quick question do you believe byakugan > sharingan ?

 

[Unbiased]

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This is the only page needed. Kabuto clearly states that HE will use the techniques of Nagato to kill naruto and bring him back. That means he is giving the orders which means he has to KNOW the powers in order to use them. The debate is over.

Lol good try but no.

"I can kill them temporaily with the human path" meaning he is in control. He doesn't have to know the power since the revived can use any of their original techniques as stated

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Also kabuto would not know all their techniques. You are stating that he knew all of techniques from
Ameyuri Ringo
Asuma Sarutobi
Chiyo
Chūkichi
Dan Katō
Deidara
Fourth Kazekage
Fū
Fuguki Suikazan
Gari
Ginkaku
Haku
Han
Hanzō
Hizashi Hyūga
Itachi Uchiha
Jinin Akebino
Jinpachi Munashi
Kakuzu
Kimimaro
Kinkaku
Kushimaru Kuriarare
Madara Uchiha
Mangetsu Hōzuki
Mū
Nagato
Pakura
Rōshi
Sasori
Second Mizukage
Shin
Third Raikage
Toroi
Torune
Utakata
Yagura
Yugito Nii
Zabuza Momochi

That is conceptually impossible. I can't believe you actually think kabuto knows every jutsu all those characters can use. The manga states the revived can use their original techniques not the one controlling the revived can use their original techniques.

 

[LegendaryAce]

Lol good try but no.

"I can kill them temporaily with the human path" meaning he is in control. He doesn't have to know the power since the revived can use any of their original techniques as stated

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Also kabuto would not know all their techniques. You are stating that he knew all of techniques from
Ameyuri Ringo
Asuma Sarutobi
Chiyo
Chūkichi
Dan Katō
Deidara
Fourth Kazekage
Fū
Fuguki Suikazan
Gari
Ginkaku
Haku
Han
Hanzō
Hizashi Hyūga
Itachi Uchiha
Jinin Akebino
Jinpachi Munashi
Kakuzu
Kimimaro
Kinkaku
Kushimaru Kuriarare
Madara Uchiha
Mangetsu Hōzuki
Mū
Nagato
Pakura
Rōshi
Sasori
Second Mizukage
Shin
Third Raikage
Toroi
Torune
Utakata
Yagura
Yugito Nii
Zabuza Momochi

That is conceptually impossible. I can't believe you actually think kabuto knows every jutsu all those characters can use. The manga states the revived can use their original techniques not the one controlling the revived can use their original techniques.

He had enough time to gather all their DNA and kabuto worked with Orochimaru also he travelled alot for infomation wouldn't be surprising he knows all their ops moves or the moves he needed to know... I find it hard to believe that he managed to get so many Edos

 

[The Necromancer]

Lol good try but no.

"I can kill them temporaily with the human path" meaning he is in control. He doesn't have to know the power since the revived can use any of their original techniques as stated

You must be registered for see images

Also kabuto would not know all their techniques. You are stating that he knew all of techniques from
Ameyuri Ringo
Asuma Sarutobi
Chiyo
Chūkichi
Dan Katō
Deidara
Fourth Kazekage
Fū
Fuguki Suikazan
Gari
Ginkaku
Haku
Han
Hanzō
Hizashi Hyūga
Itachi Uchiha
Jinin Akebino
Jinpachi Munashi
Kakuzu
Kimimaro
Kinkaku
Kushimaru Kuriarare
Madara Uchiha
Mangetsu Hōzuki
Mū
Nagato
Pakura
Rōshi
Sasori
Second Mizukage
Shin
Third Raikage
Toroi
Torune
Utakata
Yagura
Yugito Nii
Zabuza Momochi

That is conceptually impossible. I can't believe you actually think kabuto knows every jutsu all those characters can use. The manga states the revived can use their original techniques not the one controlling the revived can use their original techniques.

So you're saying he can make his edos use techniques he himself does not? This isn't an xbox where you press a button and find out what it does, he clearly tells nagato to use a specific technique and strategy which he couldn't do if he didn't know the jutsu.

 

[Nagatoballer]

100% proof that oro did not have edo perfected if u say that they first and second were at full strength had unlimited stamina and chakra plus can't die and they got owned U R STUPID I will make a list

1.2 hokages that are edo vs 1 hokage that is retired that just sounds dumb no matter who it is
2. Hiruzan is NOT STONGER THEN MADARA OR THE FIRST even if they where a live and not edo and it is soooooo clear because they can easily control tailed beasts hiruzan can not
2.1 prefect susanoo would rape hiruzan
3. the way hiruzan won was with a suicide atk it killed him to win so that is not stronger
4. The biggest point is why no giant wood dragon from the first or space time from the second they did not use all there power
5. Its simple it has been what 2-5 years since oro used edo amd kabuto
Has been working on it since then so it is better now.
6. Your title should say "my stupid opinion that I did not think through" thereis no proof too what u say thereisno proof against it so really stop being so dumb haha saying the third is> then madara and the first soooo dumb
7. Can hiruzan block TBB like the first NO NO NO NO (QUOTE)

Prove any of this wrong really I'm gonna keep posting this until some one can prove it wrong

 

[Unbiased]

1. Orochimaru could have killed Hiruzen from the very beginning

Spoiler

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2. When Hiruzen was stuck inside Hashirama's mokuton, Orochimaru and neither of his puppets did anything to finish him off.

Spoiler

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3. Throughout the fight, Orochimaru, Hashirama and Tobirama took turns in attacking Hiruzen as opposed to them attacking him all at once.

4. Hiruzen gets kicked and it takes a while for him to get up and recover but Orochimaru uses that opportunity to taunt Hiruzen.

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

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I must give Hiruzen credit for blowing Hashirama and Tobirama's legs off but we know now that with Hashirama's remarkable healing abilities as well as the ability to grow wood out of his body, a mere explosive tag would do squat.

5. Hiruzen was stuck in Bringer of Darkness for a while and Orochimaru allowed him to activate the seals for the RDS and even told Hiruzen to "show me this jutsu". Orochimaru even commented to hurry up and show the jutsu to me while saying are you going to let these former Hokage slowly beat you up to death as they toy with you. In other words, Orochimaru and his edos were toying around with Hiruzen and could have easily killed him but Orochimaru wanted to see this final jutsu so he allowed Hiruzen to get pounced around to cause him misery but he did not want to kill him just yet.

Spoiler

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6. Tobirama and Hashirama were standing there like statues when Hiruzen grabbed them and didn't bother countering in anyway because Orochimaru wanted to see what jutsu Hiruzen was going to use.

1: Bringing in hypothetical situations only shows desperation in an attempt to win. (no offense) that's like me saying hiruzen could of killed orochimaru when he was a genin or before he defected its obsolete from the situation.

2: Emna was summoned the second he got trapped.

3: When Hiruzen summoned Emna he charged all 3 of them and got his ass kicked albeit blowing up hashirama's leg and tobirama's arm.

4: I don't see the point. Again we can make up hypothetical situations or debate on what happened.

5: Your taking the "toy with you" out of context. Your comparing punches and kicks to kinjutsu, summons, limbs being blown off, fire style, earth style, water style, wood style, kenjutsu, heavy taijutsu ect. That's like comparing a kid with autism, down's syndrome, leukemia, and aids to mike tyson in his prime.

6: They fought back as hiruzen was sealing them.

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[leggomynecro]

To the original poster..

Good post!


The thirteen year gap you make reference to, and the overhaul in power level differences is the main culprit. It is the reason you made this thread. This is poor planning, writing, and execution on Kishimoto masashi's shoulders. If an individual is going to produce quality work have it all planned ahead and execute properly. Inconsistencies in the story, referring specifically to power scale, create confusion.

 

[Unbiased]

So you're saying he can make his edos use techniques he himself does not? This isn't an xbox where you press a button and find out what it does, he clearly tells nagato to use a specific technique and strategy which he couldn't do if he didn't know the jutsu.

"So you're saying he can make his edos use techniques he himself does not?"

No the manga is saying that not me. Its not my opinion it is FACT in the manga. I have posted the page several times throughout the debate.

 

[Unbiased]

To the original poster..

Good post!


The thirteen year gap you make reference to, and the overhaul in power level differences is the main culprit. It is the reason you made this thread. This is poor planning, writing, and execution on Kishimoto masashi's shoulders. If an individual is going to produce quality work have it all planned ahead and execute properly. Inconsistencies in the story, referring specifically to power scale, create confusion.

This x1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 Give this guy a medal he understands how screwed up this story is.

 

[oooog]

Good thread. BACKED WITH MANGA PROOF. Even if others have such hard-ons for their characters they cant see it.

I'm sure if Kishi knew how powerful he would've made everybody in part 2, this fight would have been far more epic, but it wouldn't change the fact that Hiruzen would have won, just made the fight more grandiose. The manga also stated that the next generations always surpass the previous, proven when Hiruzen beat them both.

Good job.

 

[FXW]

After reading this thread, I just hope someone finds a way to break the Reaper Death Seal so the 4 sealed Hokages can come back and show us who's really the best. Hype means nothing.

 

[Unbiased]

Good thread. BACKED WITH MANGA PROOF. Even if others have such hard-ons for their characters they cant see it.


I'm sure if Kishi knew how powerful he would've made everybody in part 2, this fight would have been far more epic, but it wouldn't change the fact that Hiruzen would have won, just made the fight more grandiose. The manga also stated that the next generations always surpass the previous, proven when Hiruzen beat them both.

Good job.

Thank you + rep. I'm glad you understand

After reading this thread, I just hope someone finds a way to break the Reaper Death Seal so the 4 sealed Hokages can come back and show us who's really the best. Hype means nothing.

Yeah that would be awesome

 

[LegendaryAce]

Good thread. BACKED WITH MANGA PROOF. Even if others have such hard-ons for their characters they cant see it.

I'm sure if Kishi knew how powerful he would've made everybody in part 2, this fight would have been far more epic, but it wouldn't change the fact that Hiruzen would have won, just made the fight more grandiose. The manga also stated that the next generations always surpass the previous, proven when Hiruzen beat them both.

Good job.

Generations surpasses right this logic

Tsunade > minato>hiruzen > Tobirama> hashirama

It's you who don't understand you probably read or watch anime once even if you misunderstand you jizz and say shit ... That was awesome and you move on .. For you to understand that fight rewatch it a few times and look at it from both point of views then you would understand there was no hiruzen pawning anyone if anything he was getting owned .. The only time Orochimaru got serious was when he lost his Edos


Btw answer this remember the Danzou vs sasuke fight sasuke won but he was saved by obito at the last part

IF obito didn't say anything and that black ooze hit sasuke and they both died would you say Danzou won?

 

[Unbiased]

Generations surpasses right this logic

Tsunade > minato>hiruzen > Tobirama> hashirama

It's you who don't understand you probably read or watch anime once even if you misunderstand you jizz and say shit ... That was awesome and you move on .. For you to understand that fight rewatch it a few times and look at it from both point of views then you would understand there was no hiruzen pawning anyone if anything he was getting owned .. The only time Orochimaru got serious was when he lost his Edos


Btw answer this remember the Danzou vs sasuke fight sasuke won but he was saved by obito at the last part

IF obito didn't say anything and that black ooze hit sasuke and they both died would you say Danzou won?

1: Hiruzen was said to be the strongest of all hokages in his second term proving his superiority over minato since minato came prior to that statement being made.

2: Hiruzen foiled oro's plans by sealing his jutsu's and hashirama/tobirama that is called winning. They immediately retreated when hiruzen sealed those 3 things/people.

3: Danzo committed suicide in order to destroy the eye so he won because his intentions were successful. However sasuke also won because he forced the elder to kill himself achieving his goal as well. Both of them won that fight technically.

 

[celarian]

I think the only reason that the only reason that he one is for story purposes and I think edo was alot different then it is in shippuden. You would also think the 2nd hokage would know some secrets or inner mechanics of the justu, like madara did. I do think oro restrained them. When you look at naruto there are constantly battle just like this, even though a character might be supposedly going full on they pause and taunt and end up dragging the battle on and getting killed. I guess what i mean to say is that it a one on one battle with hashirama i dont think he could have one, and i dont know enough about tobi to make a decision. Just saying my thoughts, no reply needed.

 

[Nagatoballer]

100% proof that oro did not have edo perfected if u say that they first and second were at full strength had unlimited stamina and chakra plus can't die and they got owned U R STUPID I will make a list

1.2 hokages that are edo vs 1 hokage that is retired that just sounds dumb no matter who it is
2. Hiruzan is NOT STONGER THEN MADARA OR THE FIRST even if they where a live and not edo and it is soooooo clear because they can easily control tailed beasts hiruzan can not
2.1 prefect susanoo would rape hiruzan
3. the way hiruzan won was with a suicide atk it killed him to win so that is not stronger
4. The biggest point is why no giant wood dragon from the first or space time from the second they did not use all there power
5. Its simple it has been what 2-5 years since oro used edo amd kabuto
Has been working on it since then so it is better now.
6. Your title should say "my stupid opinion that I did not think through" thereis no proof too what u say thereisno proof against it so really stop being so dumb haha saying the third is> then madara and the first soooo dumb
7. Can hiruzan block TBB like the first NO NO NO NO (QUOTE)

Prove any of this wrong really I'm gonna keep posting this until some one can prove it wrong

Really u make this to complicated answer these simple points and u will see with out a doubt that the first and madara are so far beyond any ninja we know and who ever said the next gen always passes the last where is itachi or sasuke or any uchias perfect susanoo or rinnengan what hokage since the first could dominate tailed beasts none these are facts if the first beat madara and madara has perfect susanoo then hiruzan is no where near there skill people are so dumb if u can rove any of this wrong I will agree but u can't this thread and hiruzan fanboys are worse then itachi fanboys

 

[oooog]

Generations surpasses right this logic

Tsunade > minato>hiruzen > Tobirama> hashirama

It's you who don't understand you probably read or watch anime once even if you misunderstand you jizz and say shit ... That was awesome and you move on .. For you to understand that fight rewatch it a few times and look at it from both point of views then you would understand there was no hiruzen pawning anyone if anything he was getting owned .. The only time Orochimaru got serious was when he lost his Edos


Btw answer this remember the Danzou vs sasuke fight sasuke won but he was saved by obito at the last part

IF obito didn't say anything and that black ooze hit sasuke and they both died would you say Danzou won?

Tsunade did surpass the previous hokages in healing techniques. Minato did surpass the 2nd in S/T jutsu. So whats your point?

No where did I say Hiruzen is clearly better than Hashi, just the manga proven fact that Hashi was complete and competent unlike a lot of others cling to.

I have said it before, Danzo got screwed in that fight. If Tobi and Karin weren't there, it would've been a different story.

 

[Nagatoballer]

1: Hiruzen was said to be the strongest of all hokages in his second term proving his superiority over minato since minato came prior to that statement being made.

2: Hiruzen foiled oro's plans by sealing his jutsu's and hashirama/tobirama that is called winning. They immediately retreated when hiruzen sealed those 3 things/people.

3: Danzo committed suicide in order to destroy the eye so he won because his intentions were successful. However sasuke also won because he forced the elder to kill himself achieving his goal as well. Both of them won that fight technically.

Wow u r stupid 2 people can't win there has to be a loser and a winner if u die u r a loser oro beat hiruzan so I guess oro is better then madar and harishima hahaha

 

[Unbiased]

I think the only reason that the only reason that he one is for story purposes and I think edo was alot different then it is in shippuden. You would also think the 2nd hokage would know some secrets or inner mechanics of the justu, like madara did. I do think oro restrained them. When you look at naruto there are constantly battle just like this, even though a character might be supposedly going full on they pause and taunt and end up dragging the battle on and getting killed. I guess what i mean to say is that it a one on one battle with hashirama i dont think he could have one, and i dont know enough about tobi to make a decision. Just saying my thoughts, no reply needed.

Well the Edo in shippuden happened a decade after its conception so it is different in terms of power scaling but at the core it is the same jutsu. You are correct in saying naruto battles happen like this EX Itachi vs Sasuke, Killer Bee Vs Sasuke, Shikamaru vs Temari/flute girl and all the others ect. That's just how naruto fights are lots of taunting instead of pure action.