100% proof(manga pages) edo hashirama was complete and perfect

[oooog]

Bullets weren't headshots/Bullets weren't powerful enough (Diff types of mags and such)

Abilities weren't used to full capacity.

but the bullets in this case were sent to kill, i.e. head shot... if they were sent to capture Hiruzen, sure. You could say Oro was toying with Hiruzen all day long, but the goal here was to kill Hiruzen using his former mentors.

 

[Son of God]

but the bullets in this case were sent to kill, i.e. head shot... if they were sent to capture Hiruzen, sure. You could say Oro was toying with Hiruzen all day long, but the goal here was to kill Hiruzen using his former mentors.

Imagine I wanted to kill you but did't put in a full effort.
What if I had you tied up, and I knew you would die. But I wanted you to suffer. I shot wildly

If his goal was to kill, maybe he wanted to kill him using minimal effort.

I could challenge myself to kill you bu only hipfiring. Or choose to only aim at your non-vital spots until you died a painful death.


Anyway, knowing Oro's character, it's quite possible he was toying from the start. No manga page saying he wasn't.


For those who don't get my analogy - or think I'm going off topic - I'm saying

Just cause a weapon is perfected, doesn't mean the user is perfect at using it. Nor does he choose to perfectly use it.

 

[Nagatoballer]

Okay, to explain once again:

Just because they didn't use a technique doesn't mean they didn't have the technique. They didn't use the techniques that Kishi gave them later (in our time/more recently) because at the time (back in 1999 our time when the fight was written/drawn), Kishi didn't think about all of the power he wanted to give Hashirama and Tobirama.

If he had thought about it and he had Hashirama summon a huge wood dragon, then Kishi would've also had to give Hiruzen a way to beat that. But Hiruzen would've won anyway because like I said it was important to the story. He could do this, because he wrote it that Hiruzen was the strongest of all hokages.

So again, imagine the fight over again and Hashi has every technique you can imagine and uses them all because the manga says he has them and can use them, and then imagine Hiruzen still beats him, seals Oro's arms and dies, because that is how the story was written.

EDIT: please notice how I didn't mention anything about Madara.

I mention madara to reference hashis power if hashi used full power the village would be destroyed so hashi did not use full power. So I guess unbiased thinks sage mode NARUTO can pown pain because the story had to happen like that. if it is not clear that the first is way beyond hiruzan then there is no hope the things the first has done blow hiruzan away. Ya hiruzan is better then oro and the second but not the first the first could fight tailed beasts and madara same time u think hiruzan really beat him and the second same time legit unbiased wow this is dumb

 

[Unbiased]

It would, if they were at full power.

What I am trying to get at here is, that even if Oro perfected them, he may have not used them to their full power.
He possibly could have, but I don't see manga statements that say he did.

Man can perfectly manufacture an AK47 (so that it is the best of the best), but cannot, or chooses not to use it perfectly (doesn't aim, fires while drunk, not paying attention etc)

There is nothing stating he wasn't using them at full power. The facts are Orochimaru perfected edo tensei, the effects of a perfect edo tensei is all original moves are available, the summoned does not disobey you(madara knew the commands to get out), and the summoned does the die. With that being said it is factual that they were at full power since power translates into your ninjutsu and skills.

"Just cause a weapon is perfected, doesn't mean the user is perfect at using it. Nor does he choose to perfectly use it."

Edo tensei is perfected. The user is the one who perfected it. Therefore the user is perfect at using it. In some scenarios that wouldn't work like manufacturing guns but in this one it works well.

 

[Nagatoballer]

But with that illustration it would be like saying that someone got hit with a perfectly manufactured AK47 and live, as the weapons here actually did hit Hiruzen. If you could get hit and live, you could say you are strong enough to take a bullet from an AK47 regardless of how drunk the shooter was

Ya but what if that ak47 was rebuilt (edo) and it only shot 22 caliber bullets its the same gun but not the same fire power

 

[Son of God]

There is nothing stating he wasn't using them at full power. The facts are Orochimaru perfected edo tensei, the effects of a perfect edo tensei is all original moves are available, the summoned does not disobey you(madara knew the commands to get out), and the summoned does the die. With that being said it is factual that they were at full power since power translates into your ninjutsu and skills.

"Just cause a weapon is perfected, doesn't mean the user is perfect at using it. Nor does he choose to perfectly use it."

Edo tensei is perfected. The user is the one who perfected it. Therefore the user is perfect at using it. In some scenarios that wouldn't work like manufacturing guns but in this one it works well.

Hmm maybe I am wrong then. Maybe Oro is perfect at using it. But did he choose to use it perfectly? Or in other words, where does it say he wanted them to kill Hiruzen using all they got, rather than half assing it.

 

[Nagatoballer]

There is nothing stating he wasn't using them at full power. The facts are Orochimaru perfected edo tensei, the effects of a perfect edo tensei is all original moves are available, the summoned does not disobey you(madara knew the commands to get out), and the summoned does the die. With that being said it is factual that they were at full power since power translates into your ninjutsu and skills.

"Just cause a weapon is perfected, doesn't mean the user is perfect at using it. Nor does he choose to perfectly use it."

Edo tensei is perfected. The user is the one who perfected it. Therefore the user is perfect at using it. In some scenarios that wouldn't work like manufacturing guns but in this one it works well.

So just answer this one ? Do u think hiruzan could beat hashi and the second if they were all in there primes at the same time

 

[b7718]

If you are basing your opinion on the Oro/Hiruzen fight:

- Both the 1st and 2nd had no wish to fight Hiruzen, so it's safe to say Oro was in complete control of their bodies/abilities.

- Oro may have been in control of their bodies/abilities, however
Who knows how to best utilize one’s own abilities in battle better then ones own self? Hashi/Tobi: lifetime experience Oro: 5 min.

- As all villains do whether it be movies, anime's, comic books, etc, they almost ALWAYS feel the need to show their superiority by toying with their opponents (especially when they mean to kill them). Watching an opponent suffer and drawing out a fight as long as they can for ones own pleasure is a pretty standard prerequisite to being a villain, and that's exactly what Oro was doing at the time.



- Tsunade and Onoki were both present when Hiruzen was in his prime, and I haven’t heard one mention of him during the war.

- We’ve seen what nearly every Kage’s was capable of during this war, and they’ve all shown unique and impressive abilities. Now I know Hiruzen was able to use all 5 elements, but those moves during the fight with Oro pale in comparison, I would rank them high Jonin level.

- “Hiruzen was old so he couldn’t perform better moves at the time” By that logic, Onoki must have been able to destroy the moon in his youth because he’s around the same age, and he’s been pretty damn impressive against Madera.

 

[Nagatoballer]

funny, what about when kabuto gave deidara full control because he knew deidara himself would be better then him with full control on.... oro didnt know enough about neither... thats where all yoru facts go down the drain

More logic being ignored

 

[oooog]

Imagine I wanted to kill you but did't put in a full effort.
What if I had you tied up, and I knew you would die. But I wanted you to suffer. I shot wildly

If his goal was to kill, maybe he wanted to kill him using minimal effort.

I could challenge myself to kill you bu only hipfiring. Or choose to only aim at your non-vital spots until you died a painful death.


Anyway, knowing Oro's character, it's quite possible he was toying from the start. No manga page saying he wasn't.


For those who don't get my analogy - or think I'm going off topic - I'm saying

Just cause a weapon is perfected, doesn't mean the user is perfect at using it. Nor does he choose to perfectly use it.

I see what you are getting at but:

Spoiler

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They are killing machines. Thats what they are programmed to do. You can't make a bullet hit someones hip if you already aimed at their head and you have mastered your rifle. When he put the talismans into their heads, he turned them into mindless zombies looking to kill. There's no half hearted way to go about that.

And Manga said he had perfected Edo Tensei, so there is no using it imperfectly by mistake.

He may have been toying with him, but not thru this technique. Remember there was even another body that would've come back as well... so he wasn't playing around...

 

[Nagatoballer]

One of the best points I have seen plus granny chio is super old and she could still do her ten finger puppets so why hiruzan so weak as an old man look at what danzo did he was older then hiruzan when he faught and died in the ninja world age can be the greatest weapon more time for knowledge

 

[Son of God]

I see what you are getting at but:

Spoiler

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They are killing machines. Thats what they are programmed to do. You can't make a bullet hit someones hip if you already aimed at their head and you have mastered your rifle. When he put the talismans into their heads, he turned them into mindless zombies looking to kill. There's no half hearted way to go about that.

And Manga said he had perfected Edo Tensei, so there is no using it imperfectly by mistake.

He may have been toying with him, but not thru this technique. Remember there was even another body that would've come back as well... so he wasn't playing around...

I guess I'm confused. Once the talisman was in their skulls, Oro didn't FULLY control them?