100% proof(manga pages) edo hashirama was complete and perfect

[oooog]

I appreciate you attempting to educate the ignorant. However don't get too frustrated at Nagatoballer. Trying to debate with users that type you are, "u r" will never get the point. It is also a red flag a troll just entered an already settled debate.

Yup. I got frustrated and I think that's exactly what the goal was. I'm a Keyboard Crime Fighter looking to bring justice to this forum xd

 

[oooog]

But in that scenario, the Hiruzen we are talking about is the one who battled Orochimaru and he would have gotten owned before the battle even began. How does this relate to Orochimaru being killed when he was a genin since we aren't comparing a genin to a Hokage.

No it took time for him to summon and while he was trapped, none of the three did anything. If all three of them charged him while he summoned Emna and was breaking out, Hiruzen would not have survived such a combination attack especially in the situation he was stuck in.

Too bad now we know that Hashirama's healing ability rivals Tsunade so placing explosive tags isn't much of a feat.

You know as well as I do that Orochimaru could have finished him off but you deny this by saying it is all hypothetical. What is hypothetical is you saying Edo Hashirama was fighting at full potential but I just proved to you he wasn't.


It is pretty much cannon that Orochimaru wanted to see what Hiruzen had in store so he used the two Hokages as Guinea pigs to see what Hiruzen planned to do.

Despite all of these well thought out points, the fact of the matter is, the manga said he was a perfect edo and that edos have all of the abilities they did when they were alive.

It didnt matter how powerful they were shown, the fact of the matter is, if you gave the hokages every powerup and technique you wanted to, Hiruzen would've beat them, and he would've sealed Orochimaru's arms away and died, and the reason is, because it was crucial to the story. So you could've had 1000 edos and Hiruzen would've had to find a way to defeat them all, and seal Oro's arms away and die, since that is what HAD to happen.

EDIT: pardon me, Kishi would've had to find a way for Hiruzen to defeat all 1000 edos, and seal Oro's arms away.

 

[Nagatoballer]

try to follow along...

#1) 2 hokages vs One hokage did happen. The One hokage beat the other two hokages. No one has ever debated that fact until you came along with your 32 posts.
#2) 1 perfect Susanoo May indeed beat Hiruzen. That was not the point of this thread. The point of this thread is to prove that Orochimaru did in fact master the Edo technique, and that each edo had every ability that they had when alive.
#3) This is not a vs. thread. Hiruzen beat the Hokages, which is what was called into question. Please try to keep up.
#4) Like was said many times before, just cause they didnt use them, didnt mean they didnt have them. This was in fact the Author who drew it before he ever dreamed those techniques up.
#5) Oro perfected the technique per the manga. Meaning that when he used it, it was perfect, meaning it cant get better.
#6) It is proof when he posts manga pages. No one said anything about Hiruzen being better then Madara.
#7) No one said anything about Hiruzen against a TBB?

Now go away.

Ya this thread became about hiruzan being better then madara and harishima go back and read all these hiruzan fanboy post saying hiruzan > madara and harishima that is the only reason I am here cause hiruzan is not even close to madara or harishima. About edo we can't compare NARUTO edo to NARUTO shippuden edo cause we don't know if oro messed up or if that was just how strong the strongest people were then there is no proof and kabuto praising his master is not proof of oro perfecting edo

 

[Unbiased]

But in that scenario, the Hiruzen we are talking about is the one who battled Orochimaru and he would have gotten owned before the battle even began. How does this relate to Orochimaru being killed when he was a genin since we aren't comparing a genin to a Hokage.

No it took time for him to summon and while he was trapped, none of the three did anything. If all three of them charged him while he summoned Emna and was breaking out, Hiruzen would not have survived such a combination attack especially in the situation he was stuck in.

Too bad now we know that Hashirama's healing ability rivals Tsunade so placing explosive tags isn't much of a feat.

You know as well as I do that Orochimaru could have finished him off but you deny this by saying it is all hypothetical. What is hypothetical is you saying Edo Hashirama was fighting at full potential but I just proved to you he wasn't.


It is pretty much cannon that Orochimaru wanted to see what Hiruzen had in store so he used the two Hokages as Guinea pigs to see what Hiruzen planned to do.

1: That wouldn't of ever happened since that's not the way orochimaru(kishi) wanted the fight to play out. That's why it isn't situational. Its not like i'm like "oh crap I can't answer this" but it would be a waste of time since its hypothetical. Yes he could of gotten owned but that's not how the fight was intended.

2: The very next box after being captured he summons emna, they weren't standing around looking at the sky lol. Now if were talking about him breaking loose that happened 1 page after he summoned emna. So its not like they were staring at him he summoned emna and broke loose.

3: The feat is he employed stealth tactics in Broad Daylight against 3 Kage level ninja. That is a major feat. That's like naruto using rasengan secretly without anyone noticing.

4: Your point has no bearing. I argue facts not what if's. We can play the what if game but that won't prove anything factual.

5: Your original point was the hokages were just standing there taking it when hiruzen got injured to the point where blood shot out of his mouth. They clearly weren't guinea pigs if they were fighting back.

I appreciate you attempting to educate the ignorant. However don't get too frustrated at Nagatoballer. Trying to debate with users that type you are, "u r" will never get the point. It is also a red flag a troll just entered an already settled debate.

Please listen to this guy and ignore trolls.

 

[Nagatoballer]

Despite all of these well thought out points, the fact of the matter is, the manga said he was a perfect edo and that edos have all of the abilities they did when they were alive.

It didnt matter how powerful they were shown, the fact of the matter is, if you gave the hokages every powerup and technique you wanted to, Hiruzen would've beat them, and he would've sealed Orochimaru's arms away and died, and the reason is, because it was crucial to the story. So you could've had 1000 edos and Hiruzen would've had to find a way to defeat them all, and seal Oro's arms away and die, since that is what HAD to happen.

EDIT: pardon me, Kishi would've had to find a way for Hiruzen to defeat all 1000 edos, and seal Oro's arms away.

So they were perfect but did not use all there power that sound like imperfect to me but like u said the story had to go that way just like NARUTO can't loose cause its called NARUTO

 

[oooog]

Ya this thread became about hiruzan being better then madara and harishima go back and read all these hiruzan fanboy post saying hiruzan > madara and harishima that is the only reason I am here cause hiruzan is not even close to madara or harishima. About edo we can't compare NARUTO edo to NARUTO shippuden edo cause we don't know if oro messed up or if that was just how strong the strongest people were then there is no proof and kabuto praising his master is not proof of oro perfecting edo

Okay finally some points with out insults.

I'm sorry Hiruzen Fanboys said He was better than Madara. Something you will see a lot of fanboys do here. It's best to get used to it and ignore it, or else everyone will deem you as a troll.

The thread was not about who was better it was to hash out the argument that Hashirama somehow wasn't complete or was weaker for some reason, which is not proven by the manga. In fact just the opposite was proven by the manga. It was also said A B C logic doesn't work a number of times meaning that just because Hiruzen beat Hashirama's edo and Hashirama beat Madara doesn't mean that Hiruzen would beat Madara.

Kabuto said Oro had mastered the technique. When he said that he didn't say "unlike Oro's Edo Tensei mine is this or that..." or anything of the like to give us any indication that the technique had changed or improved. The only reason someone would want to add that assumption into the mix would be because they didn't want to face the fact Hiruzen did beat Hashi's edo with all his power.

I would also like to add that before this thread I was under the assumption that the 1st and 2nd were somehow incomplete, although I never engaged in any Hashi vs. Hiruzen threads, because I didn't know for sure and I don't like making assumptions.

EDIT: I dont think he's a troll just a newbie. Gotta start somewhere.

 

[Nagatoballer]

Okay finally some points with out insults.

I'm sorry Hiruzen Fanboys said He was better than Madara. Something you will see a lot of fanboys do here. It's best to get used to it and ignore it, or else everyone will deem you as a troll.

The thread was not about who was better it was to hash out the argument that Hashirama somehow wasn't complete or was weaker for some reason, which is not proven by the manga. In fact just the opposite was proven by the manga. It was also said A B C logic doesn't work a number of times meaning that just because Hiruzen beat Hashirama's edo and Hashirama beat Madara doesn't mean that Hiruzen would beat Madara.

Kabuto said Oro had mastered the technique. When he said that he didn't say "unlike Oro's Edo Tensei mine is this or that..." or anything of the like to give us any indication that the technique had changed or improved. The only reason someone would want to add that assumption into the mix would be because they didn't want to face the fact Hiruzen did beat Hashi's edo with all his power.

I would also like to add that before this thread I was under the assumption that the 1st and 2nd were somehow incomplete, although I never engaged in any Hashi vs. Hiruzen threads, because I didn't know for sure and I don't like making assumptions.

Ya I don't even like itachi or sasuke cause NARUTO base and now people are trying to ruin hiruzan for me. And the only point that is legit is the fact that the story had to happen like that witch I hate just like pain fight and danzo fight and the Garda deidra fight the outcome where already known before it happened. As long as evwryone knows that hashi and madara are legends and hiruzan is not on There level good. And A>B>C logic can never work in NARUTO

 

[Son of God]

Woah. So Oro perfected Edo, I agree.

But where does it say he was using them to their FULL extent? Not trolling.
Where does it say: Oro used his 2 edo's at full power.

 

[Paintry4]

Grt thing about edo tensei, but you might be grt dying fan of hiruzen.so that u're telling even 1st and 2nd hokages were at their full power but cudn't defeat hiruzen.

 

[Unbiased]

Okay finally some points with out insults.

I'm sorry Hiruzen Fanboys said He was better than Madara. Something you will see a lot of fanboys do here. It's best to get used to it and ignore it, or else everyone will deem you as a troll.

The thread was not about who was better it was to hash out the argument that Hashirama somehow wasn't complete or was weaker for some reason, which is not proven by the manga. In fact just the opposite was proven by the manga. It was also said A B C logic doesn't work a number of times meaning that just because Hiruzen beat Hashirama's edo and Hashirama beat Madara doesn't mean that Hiruzen would beat Madara.

Kabuto said Oro had mastered the technique. When he said that he didn't say "unlike Oro's Edo Tensei mine is this or that..." or anything of the like to give us any indication that the technique had changed or improved. The only reason someone would want to add that assumption into the mix would be because they didn't want to face the fact Hiruzen did beat Hashi's edo with all his power.

I would also like to add that before this thread I was under the assumption that the 1st and 2nd were somehow incomplete, although I never engaged in any Hashi vs. Hiruzen threads, because I didn't know for sure and I don't like making assumptions.

EDIT: I dont think he's a troll just a newbie. Gotta start somewhere.

His prior post were screaming troll unfortunately but learned we don't respond to dumb crap like that.

Woah. So Oro perfected Edo, I agree.

But where does it say he was using them to their FULL extent? Not trolling.
Where does it say: Oro used his 2 edo's at full power.

I'm assuming you read page 520 page 13 by your statement "oro perfected edo" so on that same page in the last panel it states the revived can use all their original techniques. Since they were given the order to kill they had the option to use their full techniques therefore implying they were at full power.

 

[Unbiased]

Grt thing about edo tensei, but you might be grt dying fan of hiruzen.so that u're telling even 1st and 2nd hokages were at their full power but cudn't defeat hiruzen.

Yes that's what happened in the manga.

Hokages are given kill command, Edo Tensei allows the revived to use all original techniques, therefore with all their techniques at their disposal they(oro,hashi,tobirama) could not best Hiruzen.

 

[Son of God]

His prior post were screaming troll unfortunately but learned we don't respond to dumb crap like that.



I'm assuming you read page 520 page 13 by your statement "oro perfected edo" so on that same page in the last panel it states the revived can use all their original techniques. Since they were given the order to kill they had the option to use their full techniques therefore implying they were at full power.

Yeah, that doesn't mean they were at full power. Using all techniques doesn't mean full power. That's why you used the word "imply".

Imagine an RPG game. If I was max level, I can use all of my abilities. But without the proper gear equipped, I can't be a full power.

 

[Nagatoballer]

Yes that's what happened in the manga.

Hokages are given kill command, Edo Tensei allows the revived to use all original techniques, therefore with all their techniques at their disposal they(oro,hashi,tobirama) could not best Hiruzen.

U really feel good about this post there is no way they were using there full power we know cause when madara says good thing hashi ain't here cause now u only have to redo the maps a little proves that hashi fought on a large scale and if he used full power half the leaf village would have been destroyed use ur head for once and hiruzan died and oro lived so how did oro not best him?

 

[Unbiased]

Yeah, that doesn't mean they were at full power. Using all techniques doesn't mean full power. That's why you used the word "imply".

Imagine an RPG game. If I was max level, I can use all of my abilities. But without the proper gear equipped, I can't be a full power.

I can understand your point as a gamer myself, but having the option to use all their techniques yet still being beaten would give hiruzen the superiority would it not?

 

[oooog]

Okay, to explain once again:

Just because they didn't use a technique doesn't mean they didn't have the technique. They didn't use the techniques that Kishi gave them later (in our time/more recently) because at the time (back in 1999 our time when the fight was written/drawn), Kishi didn't think about all of the power he wanted to give Hashirama and Tobirama.

If he had thought about it and he had Hashirama summon a huge wood dragon, then Kishi would've also had to give Hiruzen a way to beat that. But Hiruzen would've won anyway because like I said it was important to the story. He could do this, because he wrote it that Hiruzen was the strongest of all hokages.

So again, imagine the fight over again and Hashi has every technique you can imagine and uses them all because the manga says he has them and can use them, and then imagine Hiruzen still beats him, seals Oro's arms and dies, because that is how the story was written.

EDIT: please notice how I didn't mention anything about Madara.

 

[Son of God]

I can understand your point as a gamer myself, but having the option to use all their techniques yet still being beaten would give hiruzen the superiority would it not?

It would, if they were at full power.

What I am trying to get at here is, that even if Oro perfected them, he may have not used them to their full power.
He possibly could have, but I don't see manga statements that say he did.

Man can perfectly manufacture an AK47 (so that it is the best of the best), but cannot, or chooses not to use it perfectly (doesn't aim, fires while drunk, not paying attention etc)

 

[warpathixclan]

funny, what about when kabuto gave deidara full control because he knew deidara himself would be better then him with full control on.... oro didnt know enough about neither... thats where all yoru facts go down the drain

 

[oooog]

It would, if they were at full power.

What I am trying to get at here is, that even if Oro perfected them, he may have not used them to their full power.
He possibly could have, but I don't see manga statements that say he did.

Man can perfectly manufacture an AK47 (so that it is the best of the best), but cannot, or chooses not to use it perfectly (doesn't aim, fires while drunk, not paying attention etc)

But with that illustration it would be like saying that someone got hit with a perfectly manufactured AK47 and live, as the weapons here actually did hit Hiruzen. If you could get hit and live, you could say you are strong enough to take a bullet from an AK47 regardless of how drunk the shooter was

 

[Jurian Uchiha]

I know but every time I see a top 10 and see hashirama on the top 5, I think why is a guy who got beat by a 69 year old grandpa with low chakra reserves that high?

Well the 3rd is definitely not getting the credit he deserves. I mean, he was fast enough to pull out the Death Reaper Seal on two previous Hokages after all

 

[Son of God]

But with that illustration it would be like saying that someone got hit with a perfectly manufactured AK47 and live, as the weapons here actually did hit Hiruzen. If you could get hit and live, you could say you are strong enough to take a bullet from an AK47 regardless of how drunk the shooter was

Bullets weren't headshots/Bullets weren't powerful enough (Diff types of mags and such)

Abilities weren't used to full capacity.