hiruzen is not the strongest hokage... proof

[Omnipotent]

What did madara, the original source say that counters what itachi said?


Side note-
obito has madara's inherrited will in him? Could have sword it was black zetsu.. and that obito was made of half white..

Tobi is also a unreliable source, a person who has told so many lies in the manga.. even things like him giving nagato the rinnegan


Once again, I stated your thing makes no sense, because Madara was the FIRST to move beyond sharingan.. and would have been recognized for that..... there were many other ms users afterwards most likely.. so shishui and itachi having it wouldn't be something to put them in power..

Shishui was supposedly a member of root
and itachi was a kid , who's mission was to join anbu and be a pipeline....not become leader of the uchiha clan

Wait.

We spent hours being off-topic.

Where did Shisui, Itachi, and Izuna even get into this?

The point is it took at LEAST MS (and likely EMS) to see through Hashirama's mokuton clone jutsu as according to Edo Madara.

And that because Hiruzen doesn't even have sharingan (or a dojutsu in the first place), Hiruzen won't be able to see through it; he'll end up impaled. Simple as that. Dead.

Going back to flower power; we're going based on what we've seen Enma do. Unconscious Hiruzen. Killed while unconscious.

 

[-immortal-]

why are there SO many pictures

 

[KingHashirama]

Wait.

We spent hours being off-topic.

Where did Shisui, Itachi, and Izuna even get into this?

The point is it took at LEAST MS (and likely EMS) to see through Hashirama's mokuton clone jutsu as according to Edo Madara.

And that because Hiruzen doesn't even have sharingan (or a dojutsu in the first place), Hiruzen won't be able to see through it; he'll end up impaled. Simple as that. Dead.

Going back to flower power; we're going based on what we've seen Enma do. Unconscious Hiruzen. Killed while unconscious.

Just to add on something

Enma has only broke branches of mokuton o-o. Not the one that can take on bijuus.

 

[Owarij]

Wait.

We spent hours being off-topic.

Where did Shisui, Itachi, and Izuna even get into this?

The point is it took at LEAST MS (and likely EMS) to see through Hashirama's mokuton clone jutsu as according to Edo Madara.

And that because Hiruzen doesn't even have sharingan (or a dojutsu in the first place), Hiruzen won't be able to see through it; he'll end up impaled. Simple as that. Dead.

Going back to flower power; we're going based on what we've seen Enma do. Unconscious Hiruzen. Killed while unconscious.

Even if you need ms to see through it (doubtful), You not entertaining the possibility that hiruzen knows of it through his tutorship from hashirama

He knew about bod didn't he?

 

[zesto]

Hiruzen is the weakest sigh

 

[zesto]

Even if you need ms to see through it (doubtful), You not entertaining the possibility that hiruzen knows of it through his tutorship from hashirama

He knew about bod didn't he?

teachings are not good enough, there are certain jutsus the master will not pass on to the student. Furthermore there is absolutely nothing Hiruzen can do against flower tree world, which exerts poisons and wood dragon that absorbs the enemy's attack and there chackra.

 

[Omnipotent]

Even if you need ms to see through it (doubtful), You not entertaining the possibility that hiruzen knows of it through his tutorship from hashirama

He knew about bod didn't he?

You can be doubtful, it really doesn't matter because Madara himself said with his eye techniques, which is referring to either MS or EMS. We can't work on possibilities here, because there's no way we'll find out anything about that. Hiruzen is rarely mentioned anymore.

Yes, he knew of that genjutsu. But was it a kekkei genkai technique like flower power or mokuton clone jutsu? Why would Hiruzen be able to see through it if nobody but MS/EMS Madara could? What makes him so special? Because Hashirama spent some time with him? Well what about Mito? Or Tobirama? According to what Edo Madara says, they couldn't see through it either, so Hiruzen wouldn't be able to either.

 

[Owarij]

You can be doubtful, it really doesn't matter because Madara himself said with his eye techniques, which is referring to either MS or EMS. We can't work on possibilities here, because there's no way we'll find out anything about that. Hiruzen is rarely mentioned anymore.

Yes, he knew of that genjutsu. But was it a kekkei genkai technique like flower power or mokuton clone jutsu? Why would Hiruzen be able to see through it if nobody but MS/EMS Madara could? What makes him so special? Because Hashirama spent some time with him? Well what about Mito? Or Tobirama? According to what Edo Madara says, they couldn't see through it either, so Hiruzen wouldn't be able to either.

Are you trying to say Tobirama and Mito had reason to fight hashirama seriously -_-
and just because ninjas back THEN didn't see through it, doesn't mean there aren't ninjas who could now....you're automatically insinuating that any ninja without ms or ems would die from the clone..even if they know of it... nagato, kabuto, etc etc etc...

moukouton is hashirama's main fighting style... if hiruzen knows of his genjutsu, he knows of jutsu in his arsenal even outside of his moukton

i'll repeat, Ninjas of hashirama's time, aren't ninjas of the other times.... just because ninjas back then didnt see through it doesnt mean others in another generation wont....

 

[KingHashirama]

I'm done with this thread /forum for now. Later everyone , thank you for the good debates , everyone who debated against me. Thank you.

 

[Owarij]

teachings are not good enough, there are certain jutsus the master will not pass on to the student. Furthermore there is absolutely nothing Hiruzen can do against flower tree world, which exerts poisons and wood dragon that absorbs the enemy's attack and there chackra.

you don't know that..

all you're arguing is based on 70 year old hiruzen that could not use any powerful jutsu because of chakra levels..

if that's what you're arguing stop.. hashirama > old hiruzen.... there is no debate in that

When the abilities of a character aren't shown in the manga, hype is a tool used by a writer to show what the ninja is capable of..
We knew Minato was an extraordinary genius before he ever made his debut in the manga..

We know the white fang wont lose to tenten because of his hype by minato.... hype is important

 

[Disquiet]

Sigh, there are more threads about this. :silly:

 

[Omnipotent]

Are you trying to say Tobirama and Mito had reason to fight hashirama seriously -_-
and just because ninjas back THEN didn't see through it, doesn't mean there aren't ninjas who could now....you're automatically insinuating that any ninja without ms or ems would die from the clone..even if they know of it... nagato, kabuto, etc etc etc...

moukouton is hashirama's main fighting style... if hiruzen knows of his genjutsu, he knows of jutsu in his arsenal even outside of his moukton

i'll repeat, Ninjas of hashirama's time, aren't ninjas of the other times.... just because ninjas back then didnt see through it doesnt mean others in another generation wont....

Did Hiruzen have a reason to fight Hashirama when they were both alive?
I'm not referring to the time period, I'm referring to the eye technique. A user with rinnegan should be able to see through it, because the rinnegan is just an evolved EMS. I'm taking what Edo Madara says literally and yet you're trying to find nonexistent meanings of what he said.

That's an assumption and nothing more. Null point; unless you can prove with a manga scan that Hiruzen knew all of Hashirama's mokuton jutsu. Including flower power and mokuton clone jutsu. Anyways, how would it matter if he knew about it? Madara didn't say nobody knew about it. He said nobody could see through it. So whether or not Hiruzen knows about it is an irrelevant point.

Prove that ninja from this generation can see through it. Because a Kage, the Godaime Hokage, the Slug Sannin, couldn't and I'm pretty sure she's in another generation because she's Hashirama's granddaughter.

 

[frbro82]

1 Hashirama
2 Minato
3 Hiruzen
4 Tsunade
5 Tobi

 

[oShux]

1-It's obvious he wasn't the strongest
2- Learn to type proper English
3- There was no fuucking proof in this thread at all

Thread destroyed, have a nice day

 

[Vexorian]

Strongest Hokage, not Strongest Shinobi. Hokage really only goes up to the level of MS/EMS. Rinnegan is another level, one that nobody without some serious haxx can attain.

 

[siyo]

I don't think this was needed as only delusional people will disagree. They won't change their minds so don't even try

Oh, the irony.

You should have no problem disproving the notion that Hiruzen was known as the strongest Hokage, right? I mean, you said yourself you had overwhelming evidence to support your case, which means producing a scan shouldn’t be too troubling. I’m sure you know how fiction works…

It’s canon that Hiruzen was known as the strongest Hokage. No speculation there, it’s actually written in both the databooks and the manga (we even saw him defeat them in battle). Last I checked there are no expiration dates on statements made in those, unless, of course, the author retconned them. Since you believe he did retcon Hiruzen’s strenght- and the burden of proof is on you- I expect something that contradicts it:

You must be registered for see images

I have a feeling I will be waiting for a long time

 

[siyo]

This, I can agree with.



Scan's fake. Hence the "Strongerst". Although, the words in the speech bubbles are correct.

What is your point? Googled it and posted the first one I saw, everybody knows what the manga says...

Here's the next one:

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

Unless I manipulated or changed what the text said i.e. the speech bubbles , I don't see the need to point that out.

 

[iSpeak the Truth]

Because it's known that that image is fake. And if I--someone on "your side"--didn't point that out for you, the members who oppose your viewpoint would and you would lose credibility. If we're going to put proof in our arguments, it might as well be legtimate.

Lol so this ^^ is what it's come down to now? Denying manga pages?

 

[lol99]

Hiruzen doesnt have 1000 genjutsus, it seems thats a slight mistake in viz scan

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

just throwing it out here^^

You must be registered for see links

 

[siyo]

Because it's known that that image is fake. And if I--someone on "your side"--didn't point that out for you, the members who oppose your viewpoint would and you would lose credibility. If we're going to put proof in our arguments, it might as well be legtimate. I'm just trying to help you out.

I guess the extra text someone used to explain the obvious, to the slow ones out there, tipped them off.

This is not a detailed report, on the contrary.It's a manga. Everyone knows what is being referred to; even if someone wanted to be a smart ass about it I could then just give the exact page number later on. Then that person would not only look bad for attacking something completely irrelevant, it’d also expose his/her argument or lack thereof.

Though I appreciate the intention behind your actions, I really do, it’s still poor reasoning (nothing to do with credibility). What you did was pedantic, needless, distracting, etc., but, what's done is done. No need to argue semantics let’s all return to the subject at hand.

Btw, there should be only one side. You have to be objective regardless of how your favorite characters have been portrayed by the author.In this case Hiruzen is called the strongest Hokage.It shouldn't matter whether another Kage is looking more impressive or not.