(Negative Knight) Establishing why Sasori was one of the most OP Ninja (Debate)

[Negative Knight]

okay dude but chiyo,sakura,and sasori wouldnt probably be able to beat itachi. His arsenal of jutsus are just way to big and powerful. Sasori cannot counter instant cast amaterasu's with that iron sand, amaterasu is way to fast, tsukuyomi might not work since sasori isnt even human so sasori has that advantage but in the end itachi still wins. If amaterasu fails to beat sasori itachi still has susanoo and with one hit, sasori is sealed that that whole thing about having to take out his heart doesnt matter with the totsuka blade. No jutsu of sasori can break susanoo especially when he has that shield. Very few people in the narutoverse can beat itachi and sasori is not one of them.

Read the explanation part of my thread. Fully. It has counters for literally everything you just said.

 

[Rayder]

okay dude but chiyo,sakura,and sasori wouldnt probably be able to beat itachi. His arsenal of jutsus are just way to big and powerful. Sasori cannot counter instant cast amaterasu's with that iron sand, amaterasu is way to fast, tsukuyomi might not work since sasori isnt even human so sasori has that advantage but in the end itachi still wins. If amaterasu fails to beat sasori itachi still has susanoo and with one hit, sasori is sealed that that whole thing about having to take out his heart doesnt matter with the totsuka blade. No jutsu of sasori can break susanoo especially when he has that shield. Very few people in the narutoverse can beat itachi and sasori is not one of them.

The totsuka blade will have to hit his heart because that is where his soul resides. This is proved as when he transferred to another puppet body his heart was moved with him and the old puppet became a inanimate object.

If you count roughly 13 ninja who can beat him, and possibly another 5 who have a huge chance, as a few then your right.

 

[minatofan234]

yes...... i see sasori winning this unless itachi could just use susanoo and it would be over unless sasori tries to out last itachi :/

 

[New knight48]

damn you make some really good points... man i dont know its just hard for me to think that sasori, an akatsuki member who got wrecked by sakura and chiyo would be able to beat itachi. Sasori must have some weakness, I dont think masashi kishimoto even intended for sasori to be stronger than itachi. I dont know man, i mean itachi is a genius and will probably understand sasori's powers pretty fast. I never ever thought of sasori as being "strong" atleast compared to the top tier shinobi but man your good at proving the impossible.

 

[Prefontaine]

This is a very common misconception. Iron Sand's durability against Fire Release is largely misunderstood, only Lightning Release would be capable of demagnetization, due to it essentially being a Doton technique and the electricity being conducted along it. However, Fire Release techniques have been shown to be extremely prone to heat sinks such as Sand based materials e.g. Gaara's Sand against Amaretsu. Normally i would agree that Fire Release would affect metal elements, but the fact that its Iron Sand means the unique structure gives it some sort of resistance against fire.

You might be right about Izanami being the only Genjutsu which would work, but its not a combat type Genjutsu as stated by Itachi himself. He would die multiple times before its activation.

Finally, to counter Susann'o i would have to say that the activation conditions is what will decide this fight. Unlike Sasuke, Itachi doesn't use his Susann'o recklessly but rather in dire situations (Vs Nagato or Kirin). The only time i see him activating the attack is against Iron Sand World Order, but he would subsequently be trapped in a prison if he did allowing Sasori to seep sand under his Susann'o and capture, or simply allow the chakra drain to take its toll. Either way, i assume Itachi would deactivate Susann'o before this happened, leaving him without this tech for the rest of the match (unlikely to use for a 2nd time).

1. But see that's just it, Iron Sand is not a Doton related jutsu. Gaara's sand manipulation is Futon based which is weak against fire, so it is double the worse off because A. Fire>Wind and B. high temperatures demagnetize iron. Thus Sasori can not even manipulate the iron sand that is with the 3rd kazekage or in the ground because Itachi would simply use a fire technique (if not even at the beginning with full knowledge) and that whole part of his arsenal is useless. If you want me to fully explain why I certainly can..

2. Itachi was sparing Kabuto when he trapped him in Izanami, and we can't assume if this is a 1v1 battle that Itachi wouldn't do what he would have to in order to win.

3. We assume that Itachi has poor stamina/chakra levels because he became tired after using the mangekyo in part 1 and 2 and in part 2 he had succumbed to an illness. For this I will say that Itachi should be matched up against Sasori in his prime so to speak. He should not have his illness hindering his combat. On top of that it could also be said that instead of him being at the end of his use of the mangekyo, it should be at his peak. Thus if this is a true 1v1 battle, Itachi would again, not hesitate to use Susanoo and other mangekyo techniques to beat Sasori. Like when he was an edo, Itachi used the ribcage stage of Susanoo quite often and even its four arm form. In all honesty, I don't see what keeps Itachi from using the Sword of Totsuka after creating an opening.

 

[New knight48]

wait also i just realized something... cant itachi just amaterasu the core itself, lol it doesnt matter if he switches bodies the core will still melt and break.

 

[BlackDude]

I agree to some extent

Sasori has more chakra, and immunization too genjustu just about puts him up there .....but Itachi skill/intelligences would be a big factor in this fight!
I
D
K

For now ill just have to think about it for a moment



B
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Overall good thread , great details

 

[Negative Knight]

damn you make some really good points... man i dont know its just hard for me to think that sasori, an akatsuki member who got wrecked by sakura and chiyo would be able to beat itachi. Sasori must have some weakness, I dont think masashi kishimoto even intended for sasori to be stronger than itachi. I dont know man, i mean itachi is a genius and will probably understand sasori's powers pretty fast. I never ever thought of sasori as being "strong" atleast compared to the top tier shinobi but man your good at proving the impossible.

Thanks man i appreciate that. Sasori wasn't weak and Kishi didn't intend for him to come across like that. Why do you think Kishi made it so he wanted to die on purpose against Chiyo and Sakura ? If he wanted to dodge and did, a stabbed Sakura and a no remaining chakra chiyo would be useless against him.

Also notice how Sasori had hype behind his name. 1) Killed the strongest Kazekage at age 15. 2) Had a quality collection 298 Human Puppets. Even when Deidara was being introduced into Akatsuki, he had an air of superiority around him, as if he was on the level of both Itachi and Kisame.

If i find the page, i'll show you what i mean.

wait also i just realized something... cant itachi just amaterasu the core itself, lol it doesnt matter if he switches bodies the core will still melt and break.

I've also explained this. Sasori will either have
1) The Hiruko Armour to protect him
2) His Akatsuki Robe
3) His 100 Puppet Army
4) Iron Sand (if its fast enough to react)

Even wearing thin clothing would protect from the flames long enough for Sasori to shed it.

 

[New knight48]

dude when he uses his 100 puppet jutsu he already has his armor off. He even takes of the robes and the sand isnt fast enough to react. If itachi realizes that thats his core(and itachi will probably realize this since he is a genius after all) he can just amaterasu it... thats its sasori is dead

 

[Negative Knight]

dude when he uses his 100 puppet jutsu he already has his armor off. He even takes of the robes and the sand isnt fast enough to react. If itachi realizes that thats his core(and itachi will probably realize this since he is a genius after all) he can just amaterasu it... thats its sasori is dead

If i were to use this logic, i could say the moment Sasori uses Iron Sand Bullets Itachi is dead. Iron Sand bullets are hypersonic and exceed the speed of sound, the sharingan nor can any person react to that but Minato.

1. But see that's just it, Iron Sand is not a Doton related jutsu. Gaara's sand manipulation is Futon based which is weak against fire, so it is double the worse off because A. Fire>Wind and B. high temperatures demagnetize iron. Thus Sasori can not even manipulate the iron sand that is with the 3rd kazekage or in the ground because Itachi would simply use a fire technique (if not even at the beginning with full knowledge) and that whole part of his arsenal is useless. If you want me to fully explain why I certainly can..

2. Itachi was sparing Kabuto when he trapped him in Izanami, and we can't assume if this is a 1v1 battle that Itachi wouldn't do what he would have to in order to win.

3. We assume that Itachi has poor stamina/chakra levels because he became tired after using the mangekyo in part 1 and 2 and in part 2 he had succumbed to an illness. For this I will say that Itachi should be matched up against Sasori in his prime so to speak. He should not have his illness hindering his combat. On top of that it could also be said that instead of him being at the end of his use of the mangekyo, it should be at his peak. Thus if this is a true 1v1 battle, Itachi would again, not hesitate to use Susanoo and other mangekyo techniques to beat Sasori. Like when he was an edo, Itachi used the ribcage stage of Susanoo quite often and even its four arm form. In all honesty, I don't see what keeps Itachi from using the Sword of Totsuka after creating an opening.

I don't think we should count Prime Itachi, same as Nagato doesn't get use of his legs in fights nor does Orochimaru get use of his hands.

Also to end the debate on demagnetization, i need to explain something.

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Amaretsu usually burns through anything relatively easily, especially considering it has hype claiming "flames as hot as the sun". Yet it proved to be so inefficient in burning through Gaara's Sand, why is that exactly ? The reason for this, probably stems from sand being a very efficent heat sink, it allows the heat to dissipate through it efficiently so it doesn't burn/melt easily.

The same could be said for Iron Sand but on a lesser scale. Gaara's Sand > Amaretsu (in terms of durability against the flames), Iron Sand > Normal Fire Release ?

Also, if the structure of Iron Sand dwarfs Itachi's Fire Release then it automatically tanks the flames. On a final note, we have to bare in mind Itachi cannot and i mean cannot spam Fire Release Ninjutsu, his low stamina levels don't allow for wasting chakra on such a futile task.

One more thing, how does Itachi gain knowledge on demagnetization and etc ?

 

[New knight48]

itachi shouldn't be sick, nagato being crippled doesnt change a thing if he can still use all of his six paths of pain. Also i have not seen the sakura and chiyo fight in awhile but how was sakura and chiyo able to dodge the Iron sand bullets if they are as overpowered as u say and if itachi uses susanoo when he does amaterasu it will defend against these bullets and it will hit sasori's core quicker than sasori's sand coming from under susanoo.

 

[Negative Knight]

itachi shouldn't be sick, nagato being crippled doesnt change a thing if he can still use all of his six paths of pain. Also i have not seen the sakura and chiyo fight in awhile but how was sakura and chiyo able to dodge the Iron sand bullets if they are as overpowered as u say

They didn't. They had to shield against it with a powerful chakra shield or Chiyo's puppets taking the full hits. After that, Chiyo had no puppet left to use, leaving Sakura as her puppet.

 

[Negative Knight]

wait read the edited version of that comment, i added something else

Itachi is not reckless like Sasuke, he uses Susann'o for die situations. Even if were to use it, its like trying to draw blood from a stone, he wouldn't react in time. Hypersonic means faster than the speed of sound, its like Sasori calling Itachi's name and him receiving the resulting sound almost instantaneously.

Now i know what you're thinking, "he reacted to Kirin!" No, he didn't. Itachi was told by Sasuke and even given prep time to use it, Sasuke bragged about how this jutsu was undodgeable like Amaretsu, in that time alone Itachi processed that he had no choice but to activate it.

The only one who could truly react to Kirin without prep time would have to be anyone in the series who is capable of unparalleled speeds e.g. A, Minato, 3rd Raikage and so on

At his exact moment, you're thinking of replying how did Chiyo dodge it ? Well Sasori did the same thing as Sasuke, he thought he won because they had one shield but two people to protect knowing Chiyo would save Sakura. Against an opponent like Itachi, Sasori would never attempt such a thing.

In the slight chance Itachi did manage to activate Susann'o, the Iron Sand would be on the floor in front of Susann'o. It would be a fairly simple task of seeping right under.

EDIT: Delete that 2nd comment, that's multi-posting without a reason. Like i said, i will report you if this contiunes. "Mwahaha i win" What the F*ck man ? I actually considered you to be a logical person.

 

[New knight48]

dude is 2 posts in a roll really multi posting... i thought i edited that post enough so i just posted another does it really bother you that much... he can have susanoo already activated before sasori did the bullets and again amaterasu would be faster than even the sand seeping under the susanoo... whatever though im done debating with you in my mind i just cant see sasori winning whatever i guess its ur opinion.

 

[Negative Knight]

dude is 2 posts in a roll really multi posting... i thought i edited that post enough so i just posted another does it really bother you that much... he can have susanoo already activated before sasori did the bullets and again amaterasu would be faster than even the sand seeping under the susanoo... whatever though im done debating with you in my mind i just cant see sasori winning whatever i guess its ur opinion.

Not really, but when you post things like "I win, you lose" in that 2nd post, it annoys me. Yes, its my opinion, the exact same way Itachi winning is yours.

 

[Prefontaine]

I don't think we should count Prime Itachi, same as Nagato doesn't get use of his legs in fights nor does Orochimaru get use of his hands.

Amaretsu usually burns through anything relatively easily, especially considering it has hype claiming "flames as hot as the sun". Yet it proved to be so inefficient in burning through Gaara's Sand, why is that exactly ? The reason for this, probably stems from sand being a very efficent heat sink, it allows the heat to dissipate through it efficiently so it doesn't burn/melt easily.

The same could be said for Iron Sand but on a lesser scale. Gaara's Sand > Amaretsu (in terms of durability against the flames), Iron Sand > Normal Fire Release ?

Also, if the structure of Iron Sand dwarfs Itachi's Fire Release then it automatically tanks the flames. On a final note, we have to bare in mind Itachi cannot and i mean cannot spam Fire Release Ninjutsu, his low stamina levels don't allow for wasting chakra on such a futile task.

One more thing, how does Itachi gain knowledge on demagnetization and etc ?

Well than that is a huge disappointment. Then in all future debates, A should be one handed, Orochimaru with no arms, Hidan should be headless, Kabuto as he was in part 1, Tsunade should be cut in half, etc. Yet, even if Itachi is to be ill and nearly blind he can still defeat Sasori.

All i'm saying is that if we are going to play by the rules of electromagnetism, regular fire techniques and Amaterasu are more than sufficient to make it ineffective. Sand, Gold Sand, and Iron Sand are all Ninja tools that are chakra infused. but they way that they are manipulated is different. In the case of the third kazekage, he uses his magnet release to manipulate the iron sand, thus any amount of sufficient heat neutralizes the iron making it incapable of being manipulated. If not, well then we'll just have to agree to disagree XD

Itachi's low stamina levels only come into play with the use of his mangekyo techniques, as his chakra control, chakra level, clan prowess, and his genius/high intelligence/ aptitude as a prodigy allow him to utilize everything else extremely well. He could sustain and maintain the normal sharingan and mastered it at the age of 8. This takes much more chakra than other techniques.

Again, Itachi being a generational genius, if we are playing by the rules of electromagnetism incorporated into the narutoverse, would be plain to him.



This is like the first time I've really gotten a chance to debate someone, it's been enjoyable! Thanks for including me man

 

[hatake89]

good as always. Sasori takes this low to mid diff.

 

[Negative Knight]

good as always. Sasori takes this low to mid diff.

A little ambitious man xd

Well than that is a huge disappointment. Then in all future debates, A should be one handed, Orochimaru with no arms, Hidan should be headless, Kabuto as he was in part 1, Tsunade should be cut in half, etc. Yet, even if Itachi is to be ill and nearly blind he can still defeat Sasori.

All i'm saying is that if we are going to play by the rules of electromagnetism, regular fire techniques and Amaterasu are more than sufficient to make it ineffective. Sand, Gold Sand, and Iron Sand are all Ninja tools that are chakra infused. but they way that they are manipulated is different. In the case of the third kazekage, he uses his magnet release to manipulate the iron sand, thus any amount of sufficient heat neutralizes the iron making it incapable of being manipulated. If not, well then we'll just have to agree to disagree XD

Itachi's low stamina levels only come into play with the use of his mangekyo techniques, as his chakra control, chakra level, clan prowess, and his genius/high intelligence/ aptitude as a prodigy allow him to utilize everything else extremely well. He could sustain and maintain the normal sharingan and mastered it at the age of 8. This takes much more chakra than other techniques.

Again, Itachi being a generational genius, if we are playing by the rules of electromagnetism incorporated into the narutoverse, would be plain to him.



This is like the first time I've really gotten a chance to debate someone, it's been enjoyable! Thanks for including me man

Likewise, you're a very patient person so we can have an actual debate rather than a anger-fueled argument.

On a final point, i agree to an extent with your point about electromagnetism. However would you agree the amount of Iron Sand dwarfs Itachi's overall capability for Fire Release and Amaretsu ? If so, then Iron Sand just dissipates the heat (due to how much there is) evenly along the sand making the overall amount minsicule and the resulting effect, close to negligible other than heating the Sand. Wouldn't this eventually go against Itachi, due to Sasori being able to manipulate scorching sand ? However, i do concur on your point about the heat weakening the magnetic field, even if it wouldn't demagnetize the sand, it would make it considerably more difficult to control it, if there isn't enough of it to distribute the heat evenly.

My point is further backed up by how water and Lightning work. Water conducts electricity well, however if there a large amount of water compared to the lightning, the charge just spreads so thin it becomes almost 0.

As for Amaretsu, it remains on the Iron Sand's surface, meaning it could easily be manipulated away from Sasori himself the moment it went alight and possibly redirected at Itachi.

 

[Lilt]

I think any Dōjutsu is a problem for Sasori because: (he can see Sasori's heart and weakness easily)

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Combine that with Itachi's intellect and ridiculous offensive jutsu and legendary weapons, and Sasori is toast.

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[Prefontaine]

For sure, hopefully we can continue this healthy friendship haha.

Oh I certainly can agree to what you just said. If there is just too much iron sand, Itachi just can not deal with all of it and would have to resort to other tactics while being overwhelmed. Izanami and the Sword of Totsuka are still two trump cards of Itachi's that he could pull out that Sasori just can't stop.

Regardless, the point of your thread was made that Sasori is a very powerful shinobi and that he should not be underestimated. I just think that, Itachi is a bad match up for him. Blaze brought up a some good points as well that I'd agree with in support of Itachi.

If I were to defend Sasori I think that that would have been equally fun haha!