sorry but itachi has this why plot no jutsu lol
but really itachi wins i see it being a close fight but itachi can detect his weakness with his sharingan. the thing in his chest and then come up with a plan to stop him. the poison will be a problem but itachi can avoid it and he has sasunoo to protect himself. as for locating sasori the sharingan can see the strings and tell were he is.
Good Job Negative Knight (AS ALWAYS).. Im going to have to agree with you. Sasori is superior to itachi in a 1on1 battle..
Some people are saying that Itachi can counter sasori with a Susanoo and amaterasu, but they fail to understand that itachi has one of the worst stamina's in the manga. He will not be able to activate susanoo that try to wait for an oppurtunity to target sasori's heart and burn it with amaterasu. This isnt a realistic option for itachi (Sasuke could though). Itachi would have to attempt to quickly end this battle, but that will be impossible because:
First: Itachi must destroy Hiroku, which will not be an easy feat for itachi UNLESSS he activates susanoo (which is heavily chakra taxing on him).
Second: he must defeat 3rd Kazekage. Which will not be an easy feat Itachi to do inside of the susanoo. People scream "he will just seal it with totsuka blade" but the manga hasnt releaved any speed feats from itachi's susanoo which would allow us to believe that itachi's susanoo swinging the blade could keep up with a puppet controlled 3rd kazekage or even sasori for that matter. When we go thru the manga we even see that everything that the totsuka blade has sealed was standing still in one spot. It will not be something easy for itachi too do especially while trying to battle the Iron sand, and sasori at the same time.
Third: Sasori's puppets. They easily overwhelm itachi. By the time the battle would have even gotten to this point itachi would be exausted from his susanoo use. Remember that even against sasuke, Itachi was not able to maintain susanoo for very long after 2 previous amaterasu uses. With itachi trying to fight the army of puppets (that defeated a country) he would again be maintaining his susanoo, losing more and more chakra, and quickly losing his eyesight. And if by some miracle itachi defeated army of puppets. he would still have to fight sasori 1on1, whilst he basically has no chakra from his susanoo usage.
The reason i havent mention itachi using amaterasu on sasori is because it would be almost impossible for him to.. He would have to focus on sasori to do it, but tht would be impossible to focus on sasori whilst you have 100+ puppets attacking you. And even while protected by susanoo, it would be suicide for itachi to try to use 2 MS techniques at once (susanoo and amaterasu), becuase of his low chakra reserves.
This battle is basically like placing a MS sasuke (minus lightning tech) against DMS Kabuto w/ his edo army.
Good Job Negative Knight (AS ALWAYS).. Im going to have to agree with you. Sasori is superior to itachi in a 1on1 battle..
Some people are saying that Itachi can counter sasori with a Susanoo and amaterasu, but they fail to understand that itachi has one of the worst stamina's in the manga. He will not be able to activate susanoo that try to wait for an oppurtunity to target sasori's heart and burn it with amaterasu. This isnt a realistic option for itachi (Sasuke could though). Itachi would have to attempt to quickly end this battle, but that will be impossible because:
First: Itachi must destroy Hiroku, which will not be an easy feat for itachi UNLESSS he activates susanoo (which is heavily chakra taxing on him).
Second: he must defeat 3rd Kazekage. Which will not be an easy feat Itachi to do inside of the susanoo. People scream "he will just seal it with totsuka blade" but the manga hasnt releaved any speed feats from itachi's susanoo which would allow us to believe that itachi's susanoo swinging the blade could keep up with a puppet controlled 3rd kazekage or even sasori for that matter. When we go thru the manga we even see that everything that the totsuka blade has sealed was standing still in one spot. It will not be something easy for itachi too do especially while trying to battle the Iron sand, and sasori at the same time.
Third: Sasori's puppets. They easily overwhelm itachi. By the time the battle would have even gotten to this point itachi would be exausted from his susanoo use. Remember that even against sasuke, Itachi was not able to maintain susanoo for very long after 2 previous amaterasu uses. With itachi trying to fight the army of puppets (that defeated a country) he would again be maintaining his susanoo, losing more and more chakra, and quickly losing his eyesight. And if by some miracle itachi defeated army of puppets. he would still have to fight sasori 1on1, whilst he basically has no chakra from his susanoo usage.
The reason i havent mention itachi using amaterasu on sasori is because it would be almost impossible for him to.. He would have to focus on sasori to do it, but tht would be impossible to focus on sasori whilst you have 100+ puppets attacking you. And even while protected by susanoo, it would be suicide for itachi to try to use 2 MS techniques at once (susanoo and amaterasu), becuase of his low chakra reserves.
This battle is basically like placing a MS sasuke (minus lightning tech) against DMS Kabuto w/ his edo army.
Good Job Negative Knight (AS ALWAYS).. Im going to have to agree with you. Sasori is superior to itachi in a 1on1 battle..
Some people are saying that Itachi can counter sasori with a Susanoo and amaterasu, but they fail to understand that itachi has one of the worst stamina's in the manga. He will not be able to activate susanoo that try to wait for an oppurtunity to target sasori's heart and burn it with amaterasu. This isnt a realistic option for itachi (Sasuke could though). Itachi would have to attempt to quickly end this battle, but that will be impossible because:
First: Itachi must destroy Hiroku, which will not be an easy feat for itachi UNLESSS he activates susanoo (which is heavily chakra taxing on him).
Second: he must defeat 3rd Kazekage. Which will not be an easy feat Itachi to do inside of the susanoo. People scream "he will just seal it with totsuka blade" but the manga hasnt releaved any speed feats from itachi's susanoo which would allow us to believe that itachi's susanoo swinging the blade could keep up with a puppet controlled 3rd kazekage or even sasori for that matter. When we go thru the manga we even see that everything that the totsuka blade has sealed was standing still in one spot. It will not be something easy for itachi too do especially while trying to battle the Iron sand, and sasori at the same time.
Third: Sasori's puppets. They easily overwhelm itachi. By the time the battle would have even gotten to this point itachi would be exausted from his susanoo use. Remember that even against sasuke, Itachi was not able to maintain susanoo for very long after 2 previous amaterasu uses. With itachi trying to fight the army of puppets (that defeated a country) he would again be maintaining his susanoo, losing more and more chakra, and quickly losing his eyesight. And if by some miracle itachi defeated army of puppets. he would still have to fight sasori 1on1, whilst he basically has no chakra from his susanoo usage.
The reason i havent mention itachi using amaterasu on sasori is because it would be almost impossible for him to.. He would have to focus on sasori to do it, but tht would be impossible to focus on sasori whilst you have 100+ puppets attacking you. And even while protected by susanoo, it would be suicide for itachi to try to use 2 MS techniques at once (susanoo and amaterasu), becuase of his low chakra reserves.
This battle is basically like placing a MS sasuke (minus lightning tech) against DMS Kabuto w/ his edo army.
"but they fail to understand that itachi has one of the worst stamina's in the manga." - most people actually fail to understand that Itachi's stamina is extremely underrated...In his fight with Sasuke he was able to use genjutsu a few times, tsukyiomi, a very LARGE amount of amaterasu and susanoo as well. This while being extremely sick to start with. I'm assuming the OP doesn't want the sickest version of Itachi to fight against Sasori.
"First: Itachi must destroy Hiroku, which will not be an easy feat for itachi UNLESSS he activates susanoo (which is heavily chakra taxing on him)." - Why would Hiruko be a hard task for him? First of all if he uses Susanoo and hits Hiruko, he wins. Sould sealing and all that...yes Sasori has a soul. Secondly, Itachi is a sharingan user so his arsenal isn't limited to kunai and amaterasu.
"econd: he must defeat 3rd Kazekage. Which will not be an easy feat Itachi to do inside of the susanoo." - Again: Itachi isn't limited to 3 MS jutsus. That's just bias. Itachi was an ANBU by the age of 13. I'm pretty sure he didn't get accept due to his fabulous use of kunai.
"but the manga hasnt releaved any speed feats from itachi's susanoo" - Wrong. They showed us enough. Itachi's susanoo was activated fast enough to counter Kirin, which by definition travels at the speed of light. There's no reason to assume that he can activate susanoo very quickly and then he'll can barely move it. Sasuke seems to be able to wield his weapons quite quick, so why assume Itachi couldn't? He had a lot more training with it than Sasuke.
"When we go thru the manga we even see that everything that the totsuka blade has sealed was standing still in one spot." - We only see it once...it's like me saying "when we go through the manga, we see Sasori being killed by Sakura + old lady. Your argument is bad here. If you go by what you see in the manga, then Hashirama is a weakling, cause we haven't seen anything that strong from him and he was defeated by Hiruzen.
"By the time the battle would have even gotten to this point itachi would be exausted from his susanoo use." - Why would Itachi stay in susanoo? And no, the puppets wouldn't overwhelm him. You haven't even taken into consideration the location of the fight and the distance. So how do you want me to counter this argument, when you clearly decided they'll be fighting in a constrained space...
"And if by some miracle itachi defeated army of puppets. he would still have to fight sasori 1on1, whilst he basically has no chakra from his susanoo usage." - So up until now, Itachi only used Susanoo and has run out of chakra... nice.
This post isn't favoring Itachi at all, because you forgot to mention his full capabilities. I'm not even attacking you, but it's true. You haven't taken into consideration anything else from Itachi, except for susanoo. You're not even sure how much stamina he's got, but you assume it's low, because you've seen him die because of it...
I believe that I have made a solid point proving that Itachi's genjutsu would work. As long as Sasori can see, he can be affected by visual genjutsu. Makes sense doesn't it? How does Sasori counter genjutsu?
Also, Itachi has a fire affinity. Fire vs wood puppets...pretty much a winner here.
Not only this, but Itachi has been spending time with some of the most feared villains in the manga. Having a sharingan, you know for certain that he picked up a few jutsus along the way. I mean look at Kakashi...and he isn't as skilled as Itachi.
You also haven't taken into account that Itachi has: 1. izanami - this may not work against Sasori though, but it's in his arsenal. The one reason why I think this may work is because Sasori was able to be changed by Chyio.
2. izanagi - safe guess that they come together
3. KA - this can easily change the tide of the battle. KA can affect anyone and Itachi's got Shisui's eye. How do you counter this one?
Though Sasori is not to be taken lightly, Itachi is far from being badly matched against him. I really appreciate your try and the effort you put into this thread, but this is a clear match in Itachi's favour that will be decided even without the use of Genjutsu, as people are always discordant when it comes to whether it works on Sasori or not.
1. Hiruko, poison & traps
Of course, Sasori's poisonous traps are highly dangerous, and a single scratch is enough to take down even the strongest opponents as long as they don't have the antidote. What makes them even more dangerous is their unpredictability, even without Satetsu. But how is he actually going to land a scratch on Itachi? Considering the latter's proficiency and speed with Kunai [
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] and Shuriken [
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], which are furtherly backed up by the Sharingan's predictional abilities [
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] and his outstanding speed, it seems very unlikely to happen. Thus, Hiruko won't be much of a threat. The armor will be broken by Itachi's ordinary Ninjutsu, though it must be said that we cannot fully assess Hiruko's defensive capabilities. If everything else fails, it will be smashed by Susanoo; in a worst case scenario, Sasori's real body will be crushed right along with it.
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I'm sure you're aware of these circumstances, that's why you base most of your argumentation on Sasori's Hyakki no Soen and Sandaime Raikage's Satetsu. Even though I must agree that those techniques are often underrated, they're not as much of a threat to Itachi as you make them out to be, as I'll elaborate in the following two paragraphs.
2. How to fight Akahigi Hyakki no Soen
You're fooled by the sheer numbers, here, yet disregard that they're nothing but puppets; they only use Taijutsu, and the only thing that puts them above ordinary fodder is the poison their weapons are soaked in and their ability to fly. Even Sakura, who doesn't have impressive speed or any predictional abilities, was able to dodge their attacks quite easily. [
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] Sasuke also showed us that dealing with an overwhelming number of low-life enemies is not an issue for a Sharingan user with extraordinary Taijutsu skills. The advantage in Taijutsu those eyes grant is truly frigthening.
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Now, bear in mind that Sasuke fought these Shinobi without any intent to kill [
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] and was, at that point, inferior to Itachi in terms of both Taijutsu and speed. Yet he managed to take them down without a single drop of blood in return. [
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] What's stopping Itachi from doing the same to these puppets? It was nowhere indicated (at least not in any canon source) that Sasori can act individually while controlling them; quite the contrary, he looked extremely concentrated or rather busy while doing so and could not even react properly to the seal thrown by Sakura. Itachi may also back up his Taijutsu with Karasu Bunshin, which were said to require less Chakra than regular Kage Bunshin, and Bunshin Daibakuha, which could deal a considerable amount of damage to those puppets. [
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Another major weakness, which can be exploited by Itachi, lies in the Chakra strings that form the basis of Kugutsu no Jutsu; they're indispensable for controlling puppets. For one thing, the Sharingan can see Chakra, which means that Itachi can clearly see the strings; but that's not the crucial point. The crucial point is that those very threads can be cut, taking away any control over a puppet from the puppeteer. [
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] Doing so is basically Kugutsu no Jutsu's downfall, as each and every puppet whose strings are cut will turn into a useless doll until the strings are re-attached. Omoi's swordsmanship is obviously on a very high level, but it pales in comparison to Susanoo's feats in that area. The Chakra blades Susanoo can form at will aren't just huge, but also very sharp; they were cutting through rocks and Kimimaro's bones (which were said to be harder than steel, and were on top of that powered by Senchakra in this specific scenario) with relative ease [
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], making them superior to even the Samurai's Chakra enhanced blades. [
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] By using this weakness to his advantage, which is to be expected considering Itachi's analytical prowess, Hyakki no Soen will be defeated without much trouble. Even if the puppets could somehow prevent him from doing so, they don't stand a chance against Susanoo, which has four hands to slice or smash them. Due to its imane size, huge amounts of puppets can be destroyed within a small amount of time. Stage one, the fully formed skeleton, will be more than enough here, considering it already blocked attacks far more impressive than anything these puppets can do; iron simply splinters on its surface. [
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3. Sandaime Kazekage & Satetsu
Satetsu might be very dangerous, but then again, I don't see it scratching Itachi at all. A main factor that Satetsu and Gaara's sand already differ in is the time it takes to form, which is by far not instant. [
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] It does not work like Gaara's sand in general. Its main purpose is to be shaped and compressed into weapons and projectiles that are used to attack the enemy, which makes it less flexible and versatile. Furthermore, Sandaime Kazekage's attack patterns can be predicted by observing Sasori's fingers, which Sakura even considered a puppeteers natural weakness; Sasori reacted accordingly by admitting that it'd take a while to catch her at that rate. [
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] If Sakura was able to do so, imagine Itachi observing Sasori with his Sharingan. Unfortunately, you did not put any emphasis on weaknesses such as this one. Apart from these main factors there is Itachi's speed and his reflexes. Faster attacks with a lower destruction-rate, like Satetsu Shigure, may also be blocked by one of Itachi's quickly executed, defensive Suiton techniques. [
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] What further adds to Itachi quickly analyzing and overcoming Satetsu is the very fact that he can see the magnetic Chakra released by the puppet. [
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] With that being said, the only real threat to Itachi would be Satetsu Kaiho; due to its truly unpredictable nature it would be Sasori's only technique Itachi couldn't overcome without Susanoo. However, more than stage one won't be needed, for reasons that should be obvious. It won't be trapped inside the iron net, either, as its sword-feats and the branches' thinness are enough to assume it being able to cut through Kaiho without much trouble. [
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] From that point on, Sasori won't be able to harm Itachi any longer. He never displayed the ability to seep Satetsu under his enemies and rise spikes from it (similar to Obito's Sashiki no Jutsu); the scan you presented in your introduction was merely the result of Chiyo blocking the spikes that were shot from the air. Even though it can be assumed and seems likely that such a move is very well possible, it seems unlikely to actually happen in battle. I doubt that Sasori could figure out Susanoo's weakness during the short time it'll be active, especially since he'd be forced to use everything Sandaime Kazekage has to keep Susanoo at bay. Even if he was to figure it out, it seems unlikely for Itachi not to notice the iron sand under his feet; after all he's a very aware fighter and knows of his own weakness far better than Sasori does. In addition, he can - as I already stated above - decipher Kazekage's magnetic Chakra-waves.
Let's turn the tables now; how can Sandaime Kazekage counter Susanoo, if at all? Of course; in theory he could create a huge shield of Satetsu while constantly pressuring Susanoo and thus exhausting Itachi. But again, how likely is that scenario to actually happen in battle? As I already explained, Itachi's speed and ordinary Ninjutsu are enough to avoid Satetsu; the only technique forcing Itachi to use Susanoo will be Satetsu Kaiho. Now, what is Kaiho normally followed by? Exactly, the Kazekage puppet entering the structure itself. That move is basically a double-edged sword, as it will restrict the puppet's movements as well - once it is close enough to Itachi it doesn't have any hope of escaping Susanoo. Susanoo is moving extremely quick, being even able to catch Orochimaru off guard while he was having his speech - pay close attention to the hyphen and the questionmark implying interruption and surprise. [
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] But it's not just the speed it moves; its activation works instantly as well, surprising even Kabuto, despite his Sennin Modo enhanced perception.
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This page furtherly shows you Itachi being able to use single parts of Susanoo individually, reducing the strain on his body. In light of these feats, Sandaime Kazekage's chances of survival are slim. Be aware that Itachi could theoretically perform that move at any given time he's close enough to the puppet - even before Satetsu Kaiho is actually used.
4. Amaterasu
Enough talk about Itachi facing Sasori's techniques. How much chances does Sasori have against Amaterasu, one of the most powerful Ninjutsu in existence and Itachi's biggest ace in this fight? It's out of question that Sasori's speed is not enough to dodge Amaterasu. Sasuke, who had the same speed, prior knowledge about the technique and fought a nearly blind & nearly dead Itachi without intent to kill, was merely escaping it for a few seconds before being caught. You mentioned Satetsu being able to block it, but overlook the fact that unlike Gaara's sand, it does not react on its own. Its speed hasn't been shown to be comparable, either, as long as it's not shot in form of projectiles (not to mention that Gaara blocked Enton: Kagetsuchi, not Amaterasu). To form a shield of Satetsu, Sasori must notice the attack and manually give Sandaime Kazekage the respective order. Until that happened, either of them will be already engulfed in the black flames, considering that its activation is near instantly. [
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] Even Ae, the fastest man alive at that point, felt the need of his utmost speed and reflexes to actually dodge it. That being said, I don't see Sasori or Kazekage successfully escaping Amaterasu; most of the other counters you have presented are pretty flawed, in my opinion.
Covering Sandaime Kazekage with a thin layer of Satetsu, similar to Gaara's Suna no Yoroi: In theory that's basically a good idea, but Sasori never displayed that ability. The puppet wasn't covered by such a layer during his fight with Chiyo and Sakura; it's simply not part of Sasori's/Kazekage's regular fighting style. You're right in your claim that Satetsu is quite versatile and can be adapted to a variety of situations [
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]; but the moment Sasori realizes the danger of Amaterasu and tries to adapt to it, it will already be too late.
Immediately removing the affected body part: In case of Sandaime Kazekage that might even work. It was shown that Sasori can instantly remove parts of Sandaime's body, which would negate the effects of Amaterasu. [
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] However, that method would only be of use if Itachi aimed at one of the puppet's limbs instead of the torso, which is by far not given. Even if that was the case, sacrificing one of its extremities would only save it once, in return decreasing its power. Then again, that method could only save Sandaime Kazekage, not Sasori. Since Itachi can see Sasori's core, even through his clothes, it is to be expected that he aims straight for it; it's the only part of his body producing Chakra, after all.
Sasori taking off his coat after being hit: That 'counter' is a joke, to be honest. Amaterasu will burn through that coat in no time; Amaterasu is not burning slowly, which is commonly believed quite often. It burned through Karin's two layers of clothes and damaged her back in only a few seconds. [
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] In order to remove the coat, Sasori would have to unbutton it, thus sacrificing one of his arms. [
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] And after the cloak is removed, there would be again nothing to protect his heart. Dressed or not, Amaterasu will spell out Sasori's death.
Forming a defensive wall of puppets or Satetsu before the technique is used, to block Itachi's vision: That'd be working indeed, but again, that's just in theory. Since it would require Sasori to anticipate Amaterasu, I don't see it happening, for reasons that I already explained above. On top of that, Sasori does not possess any knowledge about it. You must also consider that it's a two-way tactic; Itachi having no sight on Sasori means that Sasori has no sight on Itachi, either. That could turn out devastating, as it would give Itachi the opportunity to perform or prepare a variety of moves and strategies, unnoticed.
5. Itachi's stamina and Chakra
Though it is true that Itachi's Chakra levels are quite poor, people often underestimate what he can do with the few Chakra he has. Against Sasuke he used the Mangekyou Sharingan to a great extent. He used Tsukuyomi, which was portrayed to be quite straining, and had to endure it being broken on top of that. He used two extremely longs periods of Amaterasu, releasing enough flames to set half of the forest around the Uchiha hideout's roof on fire.
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What people tend to overlook is that he also extinguished the flames on Sasuke's wing, which was shown to be quite taxing. [
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] Afterwards he still had the power to use Susanoo and maintain its final form for quite a while. It tanked Kirin and fought Yamata no Jutsu, afterwards it sealed Orochimaru and still engaged Sasuke. As if that's not enough, he even used a technique to seal Amaterasu into Sasuke's eyes, in the end. All that while he was at the brink of death, in addition to his ordinary Nin-, Tai- and Genjutsu. He won't tire out against Sasori, even if he was forced to use Amaterasu thrice and Susanoo's first stage for a short while.
To put it in a nutshell, Itachi's basic skills are mostly enough to defend against Sasori, who in return will be totally overpowered by Amaterasu and Susanoo. Itachi won't be forced to use these techniques too often during this encounter, that's why I don't see him tiring out, either. Itachi is the clear winner here, even without use of Genjutsu.
I have to commend you for that argument, you really altered my perspective in how close a fight this would be, even to the point where Itachi starts with the natural advantage. Some might say you rebuked my entire argument but this thread served a double purpose of simply highlight Sasori's own strength as well as proving him standing an equal chance in this fight.
A lot of your points were nothing short of enlightening, when considering Itachi's abilities the subtleties like the use of clones, kunai, shuriken and feints are often overlooked because of the MS techniques he possess.
I was lucky to witness Flori's Glory xd.
Points considering Akahigi Hyakki no Soen
When considering his performance of 100 Puppets i was fully aware of the puppets only posing a threat because of the sheer number of them.
Comparing Sasuke's defeat of those countless men doesn't directly relate to the situation in question but its a good point nonetheless. Those men don't possess the necessary capabilities to attack simultaneously along with the granted ability of flight to attack from all directions and not only in a linear manner (running straight forward), much like they did against Sasuke.
Furthermore, the 100 puppets seem to be far more proficient in landing a least one scratch compared to "fodder" armies (i don't usually use the term but it fits the given situation). Suigetsu and Zabuza seemed to match this feat shown by Sasuke with relative ease, with the latter even using a kunai from his mouth and nothing else. This takes away from the claim that the Sharingan grants the user the ability to fight armies of people/puppets with relative ease as two relatively low-ranking ninja seemed to match this feat despite not being a part of the Uchiha clan.
While it might be quite underestimated, the granted ability of flight is essential in Sasori's 100 Puppet formations in order to overwhelm Itachi. Without it, they would practically be sitting ducks who can be fought off on a 1 vs 1 basis due to the predictability of opponent's who remain on the ground.
Negative Knight said:
Sasori's 100 Puppet army (all equipped with poisonous weapons) takes this to a whole another level, the looming amount of simultaneous offensives would even prove to be far too much for even the Sharingan to keep up with. Considering each and every one of these puppet is capable of pseudo flight, they could act Itachi from every and all directions at 360 Degrees, seemingly overwhelming his capacity to not get scratched by even a single offensive from the army of puppets.
100 Puppet Army acting Simultaneously
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With an army of these puppets, Sasori could employ countless formations for them including: trapping Itachi in a hurricane formation where they circle him and move in to attack one group at a time whilst preventing him from escaping.
Another possible formation is a drilling one, where they come together in a spinning formation to attack all at once. Defensive formations can also be formed by grouping the puppets together as a shield to block Amaretsu's direct field of vision and then shedding any of the puppets which are caught by the inextinguishable black flames.
The above is a quote from my original argument. Notice how all of the puppets can act simultaneously and are all capable of flight. This puts them far above the standard of ordinary fodder armies, especially considering contact from a single puppet would result in imminent death.
A further testament to the Red Secret Technique should be the hype surrounding it. The fact Sasori felt the compulsion to mention he took down an entire nation with it shows how deadly an offensive it can actually be.
Points considering Satesu no Shigure
The sharingan's granted ability to forsee attacks and anticipate assualts can only take him so far. How many simulatenous attacks could it possibly react to before being overwhelmed ? Even then, some of Sasori's attacks far exceed the anticipatory capabilites of the sharingan, as Varrah stated earlier they break the sound barrier and are hypersonic.
When you consider this logically, Itachi's own enhanced reflexes can't hope to compare to the very force of magnetism.
Earlier in my thread i stated this:
"Due to being a product of magnetism's repulsive forces, it acts in such a way that can't be anticipated by anyone not even the user themselves. The forces interact in several ways, most likely producing a uniquely different shape every time effectively negating even the best of reflexes. Ordinary acts can be anticipated due to following some sort of linear pattern with each use but magnetism's sporadic nature completely negates this, at a simple turn an offensive can come out of nowhere".
From this, we can clearly see, its impossible to determine the course of attacks which are solely governed by magnetic forces, they exceed the human capability to react to the said stimuli.
That's actually an impressive point you raise about the coagulation of Iron Sand, whilst it takes longer than ordinary sand, being governed by the force of magnetism makes up for this. There's an extent to how fast Gaara's Sand can be manipulated, but magnetism being a force separate of chakra manipulation is an whole new league together, its potentially for attraction and repulsion is limitless. That being said, if the 3rd Kazekage acts as the main magnet Sasori, with his relatively sharp reflexes could use this to attract an instantaneous shield from already present Iron Sand on the terrain.
Also the coagulation of his Iron Sand could possible be explained by the purpose he was using for in his fight against Chiyo and Sakura. Gaara tends to use free flowing sand in an attempt to overwhelm his opponent whilst Sasori aims to injure his opponent to cause them to be poisoned.
Furthermore, he was in all out offensive mood against his opponents in his only fight, against Itachi he would be cautious to remain equally defensive as offensive, possibly suggesting a new use for his Iron Sand.
All of this might sound slightly theortical, but here's some evidence to back my claims.
Sasori showing himself to use Iron Sand directly from the terrain
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The 3rd Kazekage Puppet using its chest to control varying strengths of magnetic forces (Top Right Image)
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As for the points considering Susann'o's Slash, the fact that Iron Sand is sand based makes it difficult to cut/pierce directly, Kimmimaro's bones in that picture even look hollow. If the Iron Sand is condensed, its possible the Totsuka Blade can't penetrate it (it would take a stab not a slash, which would have a considerably lower force) but i wouldn't bet on it. Even then, the purpose of Iron Sand World Order isn't to block the slashes of the sword but rather restrict his and its movements (he can't swing it) so there would be no opportunity for such a thing.
Points concerning Amaretsu
I must concede when it comes to your points concerning Amaretsu, it seems to be far too devastating a jutsu for a large portion of the Narutoverse to counter.
However, concerning Hiruko's endurance capabilites, do you think it could hold out long enough for Itachi to resort to Amaretsu ? If so, Sasori would immediately obtain knowledge on the technique and adjust his fighting style accordingly.
Shi (Raikage's Bodyguard) easily deducing the nature of Amaretsu as well as Enton Kagatsuchi
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Hiruko is largely underrated simply because he was destroyed by a full-powered punch from Sakura, there was no reason for her to hold back if it was a life and death situation.
Its structure even gives off an air of durability, most likely enough to completely/partially tank Itachi's Exploding clone and Fire Release Ninjutsu. If this is truly the case, Sasori would be more than capable of holding out with his Armour alone until Itachi has to resort to Amaretsu. Bare in mind this tactic is fully dependent on Hiruko's own durability and so is based primarily on speculation.
Even then, we're assuming Sasori won't dodge Itachi's attacks as if he must tank them without a question.
Here you might bring up the point that if Hiruko is struck with Amaretsu, how would Sasori proceed to evacuate ?
Sasori evacuating a broken Hiruko with ease and considerable speed (Bottom Panel is Sasori)
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Other Points to consider
By the way, i just want to hear some of your thoughts on some ideas i've had that no-one has picked up on since i made the thread.
Negative Knight said:
Sasori had a collection of over 200 Puppets made of deceased and very skilled Shinobi, they seem to still posses their abilities as shown through the Third Kazekage retaining both his Kekkei Genkai Magnet Release and his Iron Sand.
Chiyo claiming that Human Puppets retain all their abilities from when they were alive
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How Sasori could use this ability against Itachi: Sasori's collection provided him with an insane amount of battle versatility, especially considering they were portable by keeping them in summoning scrolls and required relatively little time to bring out. Considering each and every one of his human puppets were of a certain quality as claimed by Sasori himself along with them retaining all of their jutsu from when they were alive provided Sasori with an infinite chakra supply (the puppets utilized their own chakra) and an seemingly endless array of Ninjutsu which undoubtedly possessed high calibur users of the five basic elements.
People always discount this as a factor in fights when concerning Sasori's abilites, they assume his entire arsenal consists only of the Third Kazekage's Satesu no Shigure and Performance of 100 Puppets.
Considering the following statements of Sasori possessing multiple human puppets and the fact they retained all of the abilities they had in their previous life, do you think its possible to deduce that Sasori was on a even higher level than the thread portrays (not compared to Itachi but rather in general) ?
Its highly probable that Sasori keeps his best human puppets with him at all times, mainly due to the below statements, my own deductions and his actions in his fight.
Sasori bringing out a whole human puppet from a fairly small and portable scroll
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Sasori claiming that there was no point in bringing out a "2nd Human puppet"
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The 2nd Manga scan particularly interests me. Sasori claimed that all of his puppets were of a certain caliber, Sandaime Kazekage is a clear testament to this, being of such a level most opponents would lose to its lower-ranking jutsu e.g. Iron Sand Bullets.
Does this change your general view on Sasori's level of strength (not concerning this fight) ? It seems to me as if he's definitely one of the most underrated characters in the NU.
I would just like to say that I enjoy reading your threads very much. I never really put much thought into naruto even though I've been watching it since I was a child, I find they way you present and imagine things to he extremely captivating and amusing.
It is a bad match up for Itachi cause he can't use genjutsu but I still think he wins cause if Chyo+Sakura were able to dodge most of Sasori's attacks; Itachi should be able to as well. And I don't see what Sasori could do againnst a Susanoo.
I have to commend you for that argument, you really altered my perspective in how close a fight this would be, even to the point where Itachi starts with the natural advantage. Some might say you rebuked my entire argument but this thread served a double purpose of simply highlight Sasori's own strength as well as proving him standing an equal chance in this fight.
A lot of your points were nothing short of enlightening, when considering Itachi's abilities the subtleties like the use of clones, kunai, shuriken and feints are often overlooked because of the MS techniques he possess.
I'm totally aware that this thread served two purposes, but my intentions did not go ahead of showing Itachi's superiority. The thread's second purpose cannot be disproved, as Sasori's indeed an extremely fearsome opponent whose strength can only be acknowledged. The only reason he seems to be underestimated at all appears to be the very fact that he was beaten by an old woman and Sakura. What people don't seem to be considering, however, is that Chiyo was as well a not to be underestimated master of Kugutsu no Jutsu and a high level Shinobi possessing prior knowledge, and Sakura being not all that weak and having made preparations in advance, namely mixing antidotes. Then again, there's enough room to interpret that Sasori lost on purpose, in the end.
Nonetheless, I must still disagree with Sasori standing equal chances, which is not the case.
When considering his performance of 100 Puppets i was fully aware of the puppets only posing a threat because of the sheer number of them.
Comparing Sasuke's defeat of those countless men doesn't directly relate to the situation in question but its a good point nonetheless. Those men don't possess the necessary capabilities to attack simultaneously along with the granted ability of flight to attack from all directions and not only in a linear manner (running straight forward), much like they did against Sasuke.
Furthermore, the 100 puppets seem to be far more proficient in landing a least one scratch compared to "fodder" armies (i don't usually use the term but it fits the given situation). Suigetsu and Zabuza seemed to match this feat shown by Sasuke with relative ease, with the latter even using a kunai from his mouth and nothing else. This takes away from the claim that the Sharingan grants the user the ability to fight armies of people/puppets with relative ease as two relatively low-ranking ninja seemed to match this feat despite not being a part of the Uchiha clan.
While it might be quite underestimated, the granted ability of flight is essential in Sasori's 100 Puppet formations in order to overwhelm Itachi. Without it, they would practically be sitting ducks who can be fought off on a 1 vs 1 basis due to the predictability of opponent's who remain on the ground.
The above is a quote from my original argument. Notice how all of the puppets can act simultaneously and are all capable of flight. This puts them far above the standard of ordinary fodder armies, especially considering contact from a single puppet would result in imminent death.
A further testament to the Red Secret Technique should be the hype surrounding it. The fact Sasori felt the compulsion to mention he took down an entire nation with it shows how deadly an offensive it can actually be.
I don't see how the given situation doesn't relate to Akahigi no Soen. There's nothing to assume that these Shinobi fought Sasuke in a linear manner; the battlefield indicates something else. Shinobi can jump and do it quite often, even within close range; in the end, the puppets of Hyakki no Soen need to go down in order to harm Itachi as well. For him to be attacked from all ancles he would need to be completely surrounded, which I don't see happening when he's constantly moving. As I already pointed out even Sakura was able to dodge their attacks quite effortlessly, despite being targeted from all sides.
Shinobi is a key word, by the way. The people Zabuza fend off were ordinary mercenaries, possessing nothing comparable to the arts of Ninja. [
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] Further, they were far inferior compared to the Shinobi Sasuke defeated in terms of numbers. [
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] Then again, Zabuza didn't even defeat all of them, and didn't get through without receiving a scratch, either; quite the contrary. Most importantly, I don't see how Zabuza could be considered a low-rank-Shinobi.
Regarding Suigetsu, I cannot remember him defeating any bigger amount of enemies. In case you're refering to the test subjects at Orochimaru's northern hideout, you must consider that he was assisted by Sasuke, who didn't even break a sweat; unlike Suigetsu, who seemed to be quite exhausted afterwards. [
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] Moreover, his Kubikiribocho and Suika no Jutsu are perfectly suited for Taijutsu. One could even go as far as to claim that he's completely invulnerable to ordinary Shinobi that are not capable of using Raiton. Then again, those prisoners were frenzied and couldn't control their powers nor their emotions; the mental side-effects of the Juin are well known.
In conclusion, fighting and without receiving a single blow defeating such a large group of Shinobi is still an impressive feat, which is greatly eased by the Sharingan. In the end, the puppets' ability to fly will only be of use to some point against Itachi, who displayed more than once that he's very well capable of performing Taijutsu even while in the air.
The sharingan's granted ability to forsee attacks and anticipate assualts can only take him so far. How many simulatenous attacks could it possibly react to before being overwhelmed ? Even then, some of Sasori's attacks far exceed the anticipatory capabilites of the sharingan, as Varrah stated earlier they break the sound barrier and are hypersonic.
When you consider this logically, Itachi's own enhanced reflexes can't hope to compare to the very force of magnetism.
Earlier in my thread i stated this:
"Due to being a product of magnetism's repulsive forces, it acts in such a way that can't be anticipated by anyone not even the user themselves. The forces interact in several ways, most likely producing a uniquely different shape every time effectively negating even the best of reflexes. Ordinary acts can be anticipated due to following some sort of linear pattern with each use but magnetism's sporadic nature completely negates this, at a simple turn an offensive can come out of nowhere".
From this, we can clearly see, its impossible to determine the course of attacks which are solely governed by magnetic forces, they exceed the human capability to react to the said stimuli.
That's actually an impressive point you raise about the coagulation of Iron Sand, whilst it takes longer than ordinary sand, being governed by the force of magnetism makes up for this. There's an extent to how fast Gaara's Sand can be manipulated, but magnetism being a force separate of chakra manipulation is an whole new league together, its potentially for attraction and repulsion is limitless. That being said, if the 3rd Kazekage acts as the main magnet Sasori, with his relatively sharp reflexes could use this to attract an instantaneous shield from already present Iron Sand on the terrain.
Also the coagulation of his Iron Sand could possible be explained by the purpose he was using for in his fight against Chiyo and Sakura. Gaara tends to use free flowing sand in an attempt to overwhelm his opponent whilst Sasori aims to injure his opponent to cause them to be poisoned.
Furthermore, he was in all out offensive mood against his opponents in his only fight, against Itachi he would be cautious to remain equally defensive as offensive, possibly suggesting a new use for his Iron Sand.
All of this might sound slightly theortical, but here's some evidence to back my claims.
Sasori showing himself to use Iron Sand directly from the terrain
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The 3rd Kazekage Puppet using its chest to control varying strengths of magnetic forces (Top Right Image)
Indeed, this paragraph sounds exceedingly theoretical, yet I don't see your point. He's not fighting the very force of magnetism itself, but its result; namely the projectiles and weapons that are tossed around. Sandaime displayed not a single attack that indicates a Shinobi of Itachi's calibre couldn't evade it. The only attack your prior statement fits is Satetsu Kaiho, which I admitted would be the only technique Itachi could not overcome without using Susanoo. Furthermore, you entirely ignored my main argument about Satetsu's anticipation, which lies in observing the patterns of Sasori's fingers. By doing so, Sakura quickly learned to decipher and predict his attacks, making even Sasori himself admitt that he'd need some time to catch her at that rate. [
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] Now, what are Sakura's observant and evasive skills compared to Itachi's?
Regarding the point you raised about attracting an instant shield, I can hardly imagine that. It was shown on more than one occasion that Satetsu needs some time to collect. If we assume that instantly attracting sand to serve as a spontaneous shield was possible, it would only be of marginal strength. Without being compressed, the iron sand is but sand; and unlike the special sand Gaara carries inside his gourd, it isn't enhanced with ancient Chakra and a mother's love that are responsible for its astounding defensive capabilities. It certainly wouldn't be strong enough to stop Susanoo's blades or Yasaka no Magatama, nor would it be fast enough to block Amaterasu.
As for the points considering Susann'o's Slash, the fact that Iron Sand is sand based makes it difficult to cut/pierce directly, Kimmimaro's bones in that picture even look hollow. If the Iron Sand is condensed, its possible the Totsuka Blade can't penetrate it (it would take a stab not a slash, which would have a considerably lower force) but i wouldn't bet on it. Even then, the purpose of Iron Sand World Order isn't to block the slashes of the sword but rather restrict his and its movements (he can't swing it) so there would be no opportunity for such a thing.
I'm aware that it restricts Susanoo's movements, but as I pointed out, Susanoo can free itself without much trouble, may it be through slicing or shooting Yasaka no Magatama. Totsuka won't be needed in this specific scenario, but only the ordinary Chakra daggers and swords Susanoo brings forth at the user's command. Kimimaro's bones are hollow indeed, but they're still as hard, if not harder than steel. The huge pillars that Susanoo tore through were of a certain density as well. Be also aware that Susanoo's size is decided by the user, within a certain limit: It can be human sized or six times as tall. It is a technique that is not to be messed with.
I must concede when it comes to your points concerning Amaretsu, it seems to be far too devastating a jutsu for a large portion of the Narutoverse to counter.
However, concerning Hiruko's endurance capabilites, do you think it could hold out long enough for Itachi to resort to Amaretsu ? If so, Sasori would immediately obtain knowledge on the technique and adjust his fighting style accordingly.
Shi (Raikage's Bodyguard) easily deducing the nature of Amaretsu as well as Enton Kagatsuchi
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Hiruko is largely underrated simply because he was destroyed by a full-powered punch from Sakura, there was no reason for her to hold back if it was a life and death situation.
Its structure even gives off an air of durability, most likely enough to completely/partially tank Itachi's Exploding clone and Fire Release Ninjutsu. If this is truly the case, Sasori would be more than capable of holding out with his Armour alone until Itachi has to resort to Amaretsu. Bare in mind this tactic is fully dependent on Hiruko's own durability and so is based primarily on speculation.
Even then, we're assuming Sasori won't dodge Itachi's attacks as if he must tank them without a question.
Here you might bring up the point that if Hiruko is struck with Amaretsu, how would Sasori proceed to evacuate ?
Sasori evacuating a broken Hiruko with ease and considerable speed (Bottom Panel is Sasori)
Not to go like a bull at a gate, I'll firstly agree with Hiruko providing a certain amount of protection. Underrated is a strong term in this case, as there's basically nothing to rate at all; we barely saw it in action. I'm having no doubts that Sakura broke through it with a full-powered punch, and believe that most attacks below that level would've failed at completely destroying it. After all, it's Sasori's main shield for a reason. But since we cannot assess its capabilities, I'll leave that point aside and do you a favour by focusing on Amaterasu.
First of all, Shee did not deduce Amaterasu's mechanics the way you claim. He compared Sasuke's skills with it to Itachi's [
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], which implies that he already saw the latter using it or heard of him using it. In conclusion, he was already informed about the Jutsu. Personally, I don't think that Hiruko would push Itachi to a point where Amaterasu might be released. In case that his ordinary Ninjutsu fails, he'd more likely resort to Susanoo, as using it for a minimal amount of time is less exhausting than Amaterasu, which immediately causes the eye to bleed after just one usage; details are explained within my first post. If Itachi was to use Amaterasu on Hiruko, he'd do it in a rush, if he wanted to get rid of him as fast as possible for whatever reason. And if that was the case, my dear, he'd immediately target Sasori after burning Hiruko, who would then be defenseless, especially under that blanket.
By the way, i just want to hear some of your thoughts on some ideas i've had that no-one has picked up on since i made the thread.
People always discount this as a factor in fights when concerning Sasori's abilites, they assume his entire arsenal consists only of the Third Kazekage's Satesu no Shigure and Performance of 100 Puppets.
Considering the following statements of Sasori possessing multiple human puppets and the fact they retained all of the abilities they had in their previous life, do you think its possible to deduce that Sasori was on a even higher level than the thread portrays (not compared to Itachi but rather in general) ?
Its highly probable that Sasori keeps his best human puppets with him at all times, mainly due to the below statements, my own deductions and his actions in his fight.
Sasori bringing out a whole human puppet from a fairly small and portable scroll
You must be registered for see images
Sasori claiming that there was no point in bringing out a "2nd Human puppet"
You must be registered for see images
The 2nd Manga scan particularly interests me. Sasori claimed that all of his puppets were of a certain caliber, Sandaime Kazekage is a clear testament to this, being of such a level most opponents would lose to its lower-ranking jutsu e.g. Iron Sand Bullets.
Does this change your general view on Sasori's level of strength (not concerning this fight) ? It seems to me as if he's definitely one of the most underrated characters in the NU.
It doesn't really change my view, as I was already aware of those points. Whilst I agree that he's one of the most underestimated Akatsuki members, it is hard to judge powers that were only hinted but never demonstrated. He implied that he was in possession of 298 human puppets, but he also implied that Sandaime Kazekage was by far the strongest of them. I don't think that the rest of his puppets is at a comparable level, nor do I believe that Sasori's Chakra would be enough to use them all in battle. I'm not implying that they are weak, as he himself claimed that he cared about 'quality', but I suppose there's a reason why he thought that using another human puppet would be pointless: The reason that his other puppets are no threat to those who overcame his strongest one.
What makes me more curious is whether or not Hyakki no Soen concists of human or ordinary puppets. They awfully resemble humen, especially when comparing them to the puppets Kankuro uses. But at the same time, they seemed to be at most average in terms of power, which forms a contrast to Sasori's following statement:
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It either means that he greatly exaggerated or that Hyakki no Soen is used with ordinary puppets. Another possible interpretation would be that the puppets' individual abilities greatly weaken when they're controlled in such large groups.
lol no, itachi is just with the same level as sasori.accept fact.
sasori can counter almost all of itachi's arsenal, while itachi doesnt have any antidote for the poison. one scratch is all that it takes for sasori to win, which is not hard to do against a fight with itachi. sasuke manage to hit itachi in a simple kunai/shuriken battle, what makes you think sasori,with all of his arsenal, will not be able to land a single blow, unless, you're an itachi fanboy ofcourse.
damn you make some really good points... man i dont know its just hard for me to think that sasori, an akatsuki member who got wrecked by sakura and chiyo would be able to beat itachi. Sasori must have some weakness, I dont think masashi kishimoto even intended for sasori to be stronger than itachi. I dont know man, i mean itachi is a genius and will probably understand sasori's powers pretty fast. I never ever thought of sasori as being "strong" atleast compared to the top tier shinobi but man your good at proving the impossible.
i know why dude, its because of your love for itachi. I know its hard to accept facts that itachi is within the level of sasori. well actually,as a non fan of both characters, I actually believe sasori is slightly in an advantage against itachi.
I'm totally aware that this thread served two purposes, but my intentions did not go ahead of showing Itachi's superiority. The thread's second purpose cannot be disproved, as Sasori's indeed an extremely fearsome opponent whose strength can only be acknowledged. The only reason he seems to be underestimated at all appears to be the very fact that he was beaten by an old woman and Sakura. What people don't seem to be considering, however, is that Chiyo was as well a not to be underestimated master of Kugutsu no Jutsu and a high level Shinobi possessing prior knowledge, and Sakura being not all that weak and having made preparations in advance, namely mixing antidotes. Then again, there's enough room to interpret that Sasori lost on purpose, in the end.
Nonetheless, I must still disagree with Sasori standing equal chances, which is not the case.
I don't see how the given situation doesn't relate to Akahigi no Soen. There's nothing to assume that these Shinobi fought Sasuke in a linear manner; the battlefield indicates something else. Shinobi can jump and do it quite often, even within close range; in the end, the puppets of Hyakki no Soen need to go down in order to harm Itachi as well. For him to be attacked from all ancles he would need to be completely surrounded, which I don't see happening when he's constantly moving. As I already pointed out even Sakura was able to dodge their attacks quite effortlessly, despite being targeted from all sides.
Shinobi is a key word, by the way. The people Zabuza fend off were ordinary mercenaries, possessing nothing comparable to the arts of Ninja. [
You must be registered for see links
] Further, they were far inferior compared to the Shinobi Sasuke defeated in terms of numbers. [
You must be registered for see links
] Then again, Zabuza didn't even defeat all of them, and didn't get through without receiving a scratch, either; quite the contrary. Most importantly, I don't see how Zabuza could be considered a low-rank-Shinobi.
Regarding Suigetsu, I cannot remember him defeating any bigger amount of enemies. In case you're refering to the test subjects at Orochimaru's northern hideout, you must consider that he was assisted by Sasuke, who didn't even break a sweat; unlike Suigetsu, who seemed to be quite exhausted afterwards. [
You must be registered for see links
] Moreover, his Kubikiribocho and Suika no Jutsu are perfectly suited for Taijutsu. One could even go as far as to claim that he's completely invulnerable to ordinary Shinobi that are not capable of using Raiton. Then again, those prisoners were frenzied and couldn't control their powers nor their emotions; the mental side-effects of the Juin are well known.
In conclusion, fighting and without receiving a single blow defeating such a large group of Shinobi is still an impressive feat, which is greatly eased by the Sharingan. In the end, the puppets' ability to fly will only be of use to some point against Itachi, who displayed more than once that he's very well capable of performing Taijutsu even while in the air.
Indeed, this paragraph sounds exceedingly theoretical, yet I don't see your point. He's not fighting the very force of magnetism itself, but its result; namely the projectiles and weapons that are tossed around. Sandaime displayed not a single attack that indicates a Shinobi of Itachi's calibre couldn't evade it. The only attack your prior statement fits is Satetsu Kaiho, which I admitted would be the only technique Itachi could not overcome without using Susanoo. Furthermore, you entirely ignored my main argument about Satetsu's anticipation, which lies in observing the patterns of Sasori's fingers. By doing so, Sakura quickly learned to decipher and predict his attacks, making even Sasori himself admitt that he'd need some time to catch her at that rate. [
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] Now, what are Sakura's observant and evasive skills compared to Itachi's?
Regarding the point you raised about attracting an instant shield, I can hardly imagine that. It was shown on more than one occasion that Satetsu needs some time to collect. If we assume that instantly attracting sand to serve as a spontaneous shield was possible, it would only be of marginal strength. Without being compressed, the iron sand is but sand; and unlike the special sand Gaara carries inside his gourd, it isn't enhanced with ancient Chakra and a mother's love that are responsible for its astounding defensive capabilities. It certainly wouldn't be strong enough to stop Susanoo's blades or Yasaka no Magatama, nor would it be fast enough to block Amaterasu.
I'm aware that it restricts Susanoo's movements, but as I pointed out, Susanoo can free itself without much trouble, may it be through slicing or shooting Yasaka no Magatama. Totsuka won't be needed in this specific scenario, but only the ordinary Chakra daggers and swords Susanoo brings forth at the user's command. Kimimaro's bones are hollow indeed, but they're still as hard, if not harder than steel. The huge pillars that Susanoo tore through were of a certain density as well. Be also aware that Susanoo's size is decided by the user, within a certain limit: It can be human sized or six times as tall. It is a technique that is not to be messed with.
Not to go like a bull at a gate, I'll firstly agree with Hiruko providing a certain amount of protection. Underrated is a strong term in this case, as there's basically nothing to rate at all; we barely saw it in action. I'm having no doubts that Sakura broke through it with a full-powered punch, and believe that most attacks below that level would've failed at completely destroying it. After all, it's Sasori's main shield for a reason. But since we cannot assess its capabilities, I'll leave that point aside and do you a favour by focusing on Amaterasu.
First of all, Shee did not deduce Amaterasu's mechanics the way you claim. He compared Sasuke's skills with it to Itachi's [
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], which implies that he already saw the latter using it or heard of him using it. In conclusion, he was already informed about the Jutsu. Personally, I don't think that Hiruko would push Itachi to a point where Amaterasu might be released. In case that his ordinary Ninjutsu fails, he'd more likely resort to Susanoo, as using it for a minimal amount of time is less exhausting than Amaterasu, which immediately causes the eye to bleed after just one usage; details are explained within my first post. If Itachi was to use Amaterasu on Hiruko, he'd do it in a rush, if he wanted to get rid of him as fast as possible for whatever reason. And if that was the case, my dear, he'd immediately target Sasori after burning Hiruko, who would then be defenseless, especially under that blanket.
It doesn't really change my view, as I was already aware of those points. Whilst I agree that he's one of the most underestimated Akatsuki members, it is hard to judge powers that were only hinted but never demonstrated. He implied that he was in possession of 298 human puppets, but he also implied that Sandaime Kazekage was by far the strongest of them. I don't think that the rest of his puppets is at a comparable level, nor do I believe that Sasori's Chakra would be enough to use them all in battle. I'm not implying that they are weak, as he himself claimed that he cared about 'quality', but I suppose there's a reason why he thought that using another human puppet would be pointless: The reason that his other puppets are no threat to those who overcame his strongest one.
What makes me more curious is whether or not Hyakki no Soen concists of human or ordinary puppets. They awfully resemble humen, especially when comparing them to the puppets Kankuro uses. But at the same time, they seemed to be at most average in terms of power, which forms a contrast to Sasori's following statement:
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It either means that he greatly exaggerated or that Hyakki no Soen is used with ordinary puppets. Another possible interpretation would be that the puppets' individual abilities greatly weaken when they're controlled in such large groups.
You've countered each and every of my points successfully, not to mention given me a new outlook on this fight altogether. It seems as if Itachi is the likely winner after your insightful yet realistic arguments.
I haven't had enough experiencing debating with Sasori, so only people like Owarij and FizzyDrink could give you a difficult time.
I look forward to debating with you in the future .
