[Theory] Naruto shouldnt have been able to hit tobi in chap 598

[Codex]

they may be the same jutsu, but the actions have different mechanics, the intangibility doesnt give him the luxury of changing his position in universe A like it would if he warped his body, thats the draw back of intangibility and what konan exploited , even if unknowingly. say for instance if he warped from A to A', then he would choose to go to B, thats fine, but he didnt warp, he, lets say, dematerialized , from a to a', this being instant and a great defense but his dematerialization requires that he cant move in A outside his physical means

^This.

They don't appear to be the same jutsu, technically, but if that's what Kishi decides to call it, so be it. But the intangibility and warping certainly operate differently.

Also, he can't use both modes at the same time, as Konan pointed out. This makes sense when he's only partially tangible, but evidently the same holds when he's fully intangible and he can't warp. In other words, he must enter and leave his dimension by the same means, whether it be warping or phasing.

 

[grenwood]

oh my god...

he didn't technically leave dimension A, his ghost stayed in its spot while his body moved to dimension A'. This is not the same as warping to and from dimension A' as the ghost still has a presence on dimension A, this is a more battle oriented use of his kamui.

 

[spartan_kenobi]

He couldn't because he did not travel completely the way into the dimension. This is why you can still see him in the Real World while he's intangible. Had he traveled in completely then he could have warped away from the Bijuu Dama.

that was one of the ways i tried justifying what happened last chapter at first, since it seems the tip of tobi's head was still "outside" bijuu dama. but upon closer look he did warp completely into dimension #2 later as seen when the naruto bunshin hit tobi in dimension #2.

also there's the case of konan ambush i brought up, where tobi obviously went completely into dimension #2 to evade the explosion at first.

and to those who say teleportation takes more prep time than intangibility, that's how it's supposed to be! but stating that the two are the same jutsu just contradicts this, for kishimoto's explanation of the jutsu confirms instant warping, and that if teleportation through suction is the same jutsu, then by definition it should require no more prep time than intagibility, for it is simply the transference between two dimension that kishimoto implies shares overlapping coordinate systems in terms of world line, if you will refer to einstein's general relativity.

kishimoto should have left the two jutsus as two separate jutsus

 

[spartan_kenobi]

What if the dimension 'a' is timeless. Tobi travels in his dimension at regular speed yet no time is lost in the real world. That would answer your question. Eventhough its only a theory. :noc:

kishimoto showing the kamui-ed kunai hitting tobi in dimension #2 following the same trajectory as it disappeared in dimension #1 confirms that both dimensions are structured so that their world lines can be measured by a uniform space time 4 dimensional coordinate system.

 

[spartan_kenobi]

oh my god...

he didn't technically leave dimension A, his ghost stayed in its spot while his body moved to dimension A'. This is not the same as warping to and from dimension A' as the ghost still has a presence on dimension A, this is a more battle oriented use of his kamui.

as someone else pointed out on this thread and as kishimoto comfirmed through kakashi, the "ghost mode" is a hoax, and tobi was simply instantly warping sections of his body between corresponding coordinates between the two dimensions, giving the "appearance" of becoming ghost like, or "intangible".

which is to say, when naruto's arm is "running through" tobi's face, the section of his face that seems to overlap with naruto's arm are no longer in dimension #1, but since the overlapped section cannot be seen, people assumed tobi was becoming "intangible", which is just what tobi want his opponents to assume.

 

[spartan_kenobi]

And for people who say it's just a manga series and doesn't need to abide known laws of physics, kishimoto does seem to possess some knowledge of general relativity or did some light reading into the topic.

Like how a physics major would tell you time-travel as seen in movies are nonsense because the world lines (an object's passage through space time continuum measuring both the trajectory and the passage of time) of the two realities would almost certainly share different topology information in terms of space and time. So kishi specifically showed how after sasuke and karin are warped into tobi's dimension they were lying on what appears to be geometry measurable by known coordinate systems, yet not on the ground on planet earth (or planet naruto) to solve this paradox.

but he really dropped the ball advancing his design of space time jutsu with the latest chapters. his definitions contradict his character's feats in narutoverse' physical reality, and in a way narutoverse' laws of physics starts collapsing onto itself by logic.

kind of a shame though, since kishimoto mostly did a wonderful job before he moved from traditional physics as seen in earlier parts of the series to the realm of relativity.

 

[NarutoVsGoku]

so basically you are saying that Kishi is wrong about the manga and its logic and physics that he created right? ok....

thats like me telling Dr Suess that he's logically incorrect because Cats dont where Hats nor do they talk...

 

[Scorpio0Pharaoh0Titan]

Who gives two flying ****s about what you have to say? Really...

It's kishi's manga, either accept it as fact with respect to its context (i.e: the NARUTOVERSE) or don't and stop reading it.

You can write me a 400 page thesis paper on how you believe it is two separate jutsu's... it won't change the FACT that kishi stated it as ONE and therefore, because kishi said it, I will take his word over you.

Simple reasoning to it: It's his manga, not yours.

 

[NarutoFan20]

kishimoto's explanation of tobi's "one jutsu" is simply put, a self-contradicting mess.

basically, as everyone on narutobase already knows, when kamui (and tobi's ability) sends objects from dimension A to dimension A', their relative positions stay unchanged, thus the two dimensions are structured as such that overlapping coordinate systems can be applied:

I. that if kamui warps an object at point A in dimension A, it will ALWAYS END UP at point A' in dimension A'.

Now here's the thing, kakashi, and by extension kishimoto, tells us that tobi's "suction" jutsu is THE SAME JUTSU. if so, then his teleportation (using suction), which allows him to travel and transport things he sucks in (like sasuke and karin during kage summit) across large distance instantly, can only mean the following:

II. while statement I holds true, when tobi warps an object from point A' in dimension A' BACK to dimension A, IT DOESN'T HAVE TO ARRIVE AT point A

Since "suction" is supposed to be the same jutsu as the "intangibility" trick, and we all know how tobi phasing between 2 dimensions is instantaneous, then the way Naruto hit tobi in the last chapter is completely illegit. Let's slow down and see what happens:

Naruto using bijuudama's sheer size to force tobi to phase from his position point A in dimension A, to point A' in dimension A', to which point kakashi sent naruto's bunshin waiting for him. The "smart" thing about this plan is when tobi realized the bunshin's at point A' he couldnt escape back to point A because point A is completely engulfed in bijuu dama: TOBI IS PINNED DOWN. Brilliant right? WRONG!

If suction teleportation is the "same jutsu" as intangibility, then statement II would hold true, meaning tobi can just warp back to dimension A instantaneously but NOT AT point A, but at a random point B far away from the bijuu dama!

In fact this is not the first time tobi's getting pinned down like this. the ambush explosion by konan is exactly the same. but if it's "just one jutsu" like kakashi says, then statement II dictates that tobi shouldn't have been pinned down in either case.


Conclusion: defining suction and intangibility as "one jutsu" is logically erroneous, for it would have rendered both naruto's attack and konan's ambush meaningless.

Fail... This is Kishi's Manga not Your's.

 

[Jakuzos]

they may be the same jutsu, but the actions have different mechanics, the intangibility doesnt give him the luxury of changing his position in universe A like it would if he warped his body, thats the draw back of intangibility and what konan exploited , even if unknowingly. say for instance if he warped from A to A', then he would choose to go to B, thats fine, but he didnt warp, he, lets say, dematerialized , from a to a', this being instant and a great defense but his dematerialization requires that he cant move in A outside his physical means

i couldnt have said it better ^^

 

[lorul2]

kishimoto showing the kamui-ed kunai hitting tobi in dimension #2 following the same trajectory as it disappeared in dimension #1 confirms that both dimensions are structured so that their world lines can be measured by a uniform space time 4 dimensional coordinate system.

distance does not equal time!

 

[Nakba]

Dude........Perhaps he used all of his chakra ?

 

[Krish]

kishimoto's explanation of tobi's "one jutsu" is simply put, a self-contradicting mess.

basically, as everyone on narutobase already knows, when kamui (and tobi's ability) sends objects from dimension A to dimension A', their relative positions stay unchanged, thus the two dimensions are structured as such that overlapping coordinate systems can be applied:

I. that if kamui warps an object at point A in dimension A, it will ALWAYS END UP at point A' in dimension A'.

Now here's the thing, kakashi, and by extension kishimoto, tells us that tobi's "suction" jutsu is THE SAME JUTSU. if so, then his teleportation (using suction), which allows him to travel and transport things he sucks in (like sasuke and karin during kage summit) across large distance instantly, can only mean the following:

II. while statement I holds true, when tobi warps an object from point A' in dimension A' BACK to dimension A, IT DOESN'T HAVE TO ARRIVE AT point A

Since "suction" is supposed to be the same jutsu as the "intangibility" trick, and we all know how tobi phasing between 2 dimensions is instantaneous, then the way Naruto hit tobi in the last chapter is completely illegit. Let's slow down and see what happens:

Naruto using bijuudama's sheer size to force tobi to phase from his position point A in dimension A, to point A' in dimension A', to which point kakashi sent naruto's bunshin waiting for him. The "smart" thing about this plan is when tobi realized the bunshin's at point A' he couldnt escape back to point A because point A is completely engulfed in bijuu dama: TOBI IS PINNED DOWN. Brilliant right? WRONG!

If suction teleportation is the "same jutsu" as intangibility, then statement II would hold true, meaning tobi can just warp back to dimension A instantaneously but NOT AT point A, but at a random point B far away from the bijuu dama!

In fact this is not the first time tobi's getting pinned down like this. the ambush explosion by konan is exactly the same. but if it's "just one jutsu" like kakashi says, then statement II dictates that tobi shouldn't have been pinned down in either case.


Conclusion: defining suction and intangibility as "one jutsu" is logically erroneous, for it would have rendered both naruto's attack and konan's ambush meaningless.

Dude, you have a point about 'just one jutsu'. I just re-read chapter 475 to confirm that. After finishing with Fu and Torune, Tobi, who was on top of the pillar on the bridge, goes back to the other dimension to bring Sasuke and Karin. When he's back, he teleports himself on the bridge, not on the pillar on it.

The distance could be appx 15-20 metres from where he disappeared to where he reappeared. The bijuudama is a massive jutsu however. Compare it to the size of the 8 tails in the last chapter; you'll see its range.

There may be a limit to where he can be when coming back to dimension A.
This is why he didn't think of it as an option and got hit. Also, another simple way to see it is Naruto just surprised him too much. From the moment he saw Naruto in dimension A' upto when he's hit, there may be only 1 second or less....

 

[aimop95]

Pretty sure the laws of the natural world sort of go bye bye once you hit the world of anime. Especially this type of anime.

In any case, Tobi basically uses dimensions to travel and hid himself in. I would suggest that when he is in his intangible mode, it is him standing in the space between dimensions.

and when he teleports, he obviously goes completely into another dimension (where he apparently can get to another spot in the real world quite quickly).

 

[ismael]

What is the meaning of that in english please .

 

[shk1020]

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minato escaped from tobi.

naruto was faster than him in the kyuubi mode (before kurama and naruto combined forces). with their combination, they should be even faster. thus naruto was able to hit tobi before he could do anything.

EDIT:
I just saw the title and posted this. i have no clue how relevant it is. lol

 

[kisamexRocks]

Makes sense to me, he could have just warped away in another spot. he did it when he was buying time for Sauske vs Itachi fight, he was covered in Shino's bugs and managed to delete his body and appear behind them while the bugs were surrounding that same spot he vanished from.

 

[Donkey Kong]

Both the bijuu dama and konan's explosion made sure madara couldn't warp back to dimension #1 from dimension #2 where he is hiding, in konan's case she's waiting tobi out, in naruto case he's keeping tobi in dimension #2 with bijuu dama's size in dimension #1. but in both cases tobi could have used the "one jutsu" to warp back to dimension #1 anyway, just in a different spot.

And THAT is where kishimoto's design of the "one jutsu" contradits its own feats

He couldn't even transfer to the 2nd dimension when battling konan because he's tangible when he does it dude and she caught him off guard. That was the whole point. Also, he did not know that naruto's clone was in the 2nd dimension when he was fighting him so he was most likely smug with the idea to just return back to his original location. You're missing the point of the bijuu dama. It was shot just to make him go into the dimension, not so he couldn't warp back. Don't think too hard.

 

[JuvenileSin]

Here's my opinion. Same jutsu used different ways. the whole "There's more than one way to skin a cat." Although if he teleports while going intangible only the part that is intangible is going to teleport. Therefore if a piece of him is missing he most likely wont teleport since he would lose the rest. And in page 14 on ch 598 it looks like part of his left arm is missing till he actually gets hit but once he does get hit he probably teleported out since you can see his arm again and only his mask got damaged from the rasengan and not his whole face. And if i were him i'd rather lose a mask over my arm.

 

[noted]

you make things sound to complicated they explained it in the magna if you dont get it your just an idget

Hahahahahaa you are hilarious