[Theory] Naruto shouldnt have been able to hit tobi in chap 598

[natssuu]

Are you trying to say that you understand how the jutsu works better than Kishi himself? lol

 

[Yo pappy]

It is the same justu you keep forgetting his is a liar and master manipulator
instead of just making his whole body vanish he can also selectively choose
certain parts as well how are you not getting that the manga clearly states that he is NOT actually intangible just making certain parts go to the other dimension
You all seriously need to pay more attention

You're not getting it.

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Tobi has been shown to be able to pick the exact point of entry when he chooses to come back to the original dimension, so him being "trapped" inside the Bijuu Dama is bull.

 

[DeadManWonderLand]

EXACTLY. Since both in this case and during konan's explosion ambush his entire body is obviously warped into dimension #2, so he can deliberately choose the point of entry back to dimension #1.

The only reason he cant do this normally is because he usually only phase out part of his body/organ, so "relocating" those parts when he warps back would leave him in pieces in dimension #1

thank you for explaining that he keeps thinking the justu is goku's instant teleportation they share some traits but they are not the same tobi cannot go anywhere he wants directly he goes to the pocket dimension then relocates from there

 

[spartan_kenobi]

It is the same justu you keep forgetting his is a liar and master manipulator
instead of just making his whole body vanish he can also selectively choose
certain parts as well how are you not getting that the manga clearly states that he is NOT actually intangible just making certain parts go to the other dimension
You all seriously need to pay more attention

Both the bijuu dama and konan's explosion made sure madara couldn't warp back to dimension #1 from dimension #2 where he is hiding, in konan's case she's waiting tobi out, in naruto case he's keeping tobi in dimension #2 with bijuu dama's size in dimension #1. but in both cases tobi could have used the "one jutsu" to warp back to dimension #1 anyway, just in a different spot.

And THAT is where kishimoto's design of the "one jutsu" contradits its own feats

 

[DeadManWonderLand]

You're not getting it.

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Tobi has been shown to be able to pick the exact point of entry when he chooses to come back to the original dimension, so him being "trapped" inside the Bijuu Dama is bull.

He did not have enough time the only way to counter space time is with space time he instantly got out of the way and kakashi made sure naruto was instantly behind him it is basically the same thing minato did to him to land his resengan on his back with the ftg version 2 except the only difference is the plan was a two man thing instead of one.If tobi wanted to get out of the way he would of had split his body into pieces which would of obviously killed him which is why he was hit by the resengan which would you rather get hit by ? a tailed beast bomb or a resengan ?

 

[spartan_kenobi]

thank you for explaining that he keeps thinking the justu is goku's instant teleportation they share some traits but they are not the same tobi cannot go anywhere he wants directly he goes to the pocket dimension then relocates from there

See, they are not supposed to be the same, but with kishimoto's latest "one jutsu" explanation, then by logical definition they ARE the same.

kishimoto should have mantained that suction and intangibility are two different jutsu requiring different pep time etc. intangibility being a space-time jutsu? sure. but making it the same jutsu with suction teleportation turns it into a self-contradicting mess

 

[DeadManWonderLand]

I see what your saying now but you are forgetting something else to envelop himself takes longer to envelop then something else it would of been too late either way which is why he usually only warps a the immediate section that is in danger of getting hit but since kakashi
used his kamui the attack was instantly posistioned in front of him

 

[Yo pappy]

He did not have enough time the only way to counter space time is with space time he instantly got out of the way and kakashi made sure naruto was instantly behind him it is basically the same thing minato did to him to land hid resengan on his back the only difference is the plan was a two man thing instead of one.If tobi wanted to get out of the way he would of split his body into pieces which would of obviously killed him

That's aside the fact, what I'm trying to get at here is that it's not the same jutsu, and that Tobi was never really trapped inside the Bijuu-Dama. Him getting hit was all plot, which is fine by me, but trying to deny it is senseless. Tobi got hit by Minato because he teleported above him, Naruto was right in front of him.

 

[iSpeak]

It takes a little while bit of prep for Tobi to teleport from one location to another, its not instant.

 

[DeadManWonderLand]

That's aside the fact, what I'm trying to get at here is that it's not the same jutsu, and that Tobi was never really trapped inside the Bijuu-Dama. Him getting hit was all plot, which is fine by me, but trying to deny it is senseless. Tobi got hit by Minato because he teleported above him, Naruto was right in front of him.

I see what your saying now but you are forgetting something else to envelop himself takes longer to envelop then something else it would of been too late either way which is why he usually only warps a the immediate section that is in danger of getting hit but since kakashi
used his kamui the attack was instantly posistioned in front of him


there is no way he was getting out of it kishi does this for a living your are not going to find a problem with this lol
one eye is for offense one is for defense it is the same justu utilized differently it is the same justu and how is him being above him or front of him have anything to do with it ?above or in front are you really going to say he was hit simly because of the fact it was from above as the act of coming from above is tobi's weakness ? now your sounding ridiculous
he got hit because he was litterally an instance faster then him
kakashi used the same plan in essence the only difference like i said before was
it took two people to pull off this time
get over it

now your simply just stating kishi is lying

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[DeadManWonderLand]

It takes a little while bit of prep for Tobi to teleport from one location to another, its not instant.

thats what i tried telling him its not gokus instant teleportation tech

 

[Yo pappy]

I see what your saying now but you are forgetting something else to envelop himself takes longer to envelop then something else it would of been too late either way which is why he usually only warps a the immediate section that is in danger of getting hit but since kakashi

Tobi was able to teleport in, and out of a Dust Release cube before it exploded. He should have been able to dodge that attack. Admit it bro, plot.

 

[ANBU Kakashi23]

they may be the same jutsu, but the actions have different mechanics, the intangibility doesnt give him the luxury of changing his position in universe A like it would if he warped his body, thats the draw back of intangibility and what konan exploited , even if unknowingly. say for instance if he warped from A to A', then he would choose to go to B, thats fine, but he didnt warp, he, lets say, dematerialized , from a to a', this being instant and a great defense but his dematerialization requires that he cant move in A outside his physical means

 

[Lightning Release]

Didn't read. LOL ^_^

 

[KidGamer65]

kishimoto's explanation of tobi's "one jutsu" is simply put, a self-contradicting mess.

basically, as everyone on narutobase already knows, when kamui (and tobi's ability) sends objects from dimension A to dimension A', their relative positions stay unchanged, thus the two dimensions are structured as such that overlapping coordinate systems can be applied:

I. that if kamui warps an object at point A in dimension A, it will ALWAYS END UP at point A' in dimension A'.

Now here's the thing, kakashi, and by extension kishimoto, tells us that tobi's "suction" jutsu is THE SAME JUTSU. if so, then his teleportation (using suction), which allows him to travel and transport things he sucks in (like sasuke and karin during kage summit) across large distance instantly, can only mean the following:

II. while statement I holds true, when tobi warps an object from point A' in dimension A' BACK to dimension A, IT DOESN'T HAVE TO ARRIVE AT point A

Since "suction" is supposed to be the same jutsu as the "intangibility" trick, and we all know how tobi phasing between 2 dimensions is instantaneous, then the way Naruto hit tobi in the last chapter is completely illegit. Let's slow down and see what happens:

Naruto using bijuudama's sheer size to force tobi to phase from his position point A in dimension A, to point A' in dimension A', to which point kakashi sent naruto's bunshin waiting for him. The "smart" thing about this plan is when tobi realized the bunshin's at point A' he couldnt escape back to point A because point A is completely engulfed in bijuu dama: TOBI IS PINNED DOWN. Brilliant right? WRONG!

If suction teleportation is the "same jutsu" as intangibility, then statement II would hold true, meaning tobi can just warp back to dimension A instantaneously but NOT AT point A, but at a random point B far away from the bijuu dama!

In fact this is not the first time tobi's getting pinned down like this. the ambush explosion by konan is exactly the same. but if it's "just one jutsu" like kakashi says, then statement II dictates that tobi shouldn't have been pinned down in either case.


Conclusion: defining suction and intangibility as "one jutsu" is logically erroneous, for it would have rendered both naruto's attack and konan's ambush meaningless.

He couldn't because he did not travel completely the way into the dimension. This is why you can still see him in the Real World while he's intangible. Had he traveled in completely then he could have warped away from the Bijuu Dama.

 

[romaine18]

Wow deadman you really are a slow learner. :flaw:
This was a very well thought out thread, and it very accurately considers the geometry of tobi's jutsu.
However, as stated before by someone else this is a manga and Kishi can allow... just about anything he imagines to happen in the narutoverse. Logic does not really really seem to matter in naruto, I swear I saw Chouji grow wings in one of the previous shippuden episodes

 

[romaine18]

He couldn't because he did not travel completely the way into the dimension. This is why you can still see him in the Real World while he's intangible. Had he traveled in completely then he could have warped away from the Bijuu Dama.

What are you talking about? So you're saying he's midway between both dimensions? He's in two places at once...?

 

[KidGamer65]

What are you talking about? So you're saying he's midway between both dimensions? He's in two places at once...?

Yeah it's like he's midway between both dimensions, cause when he goes in that dimension completely we can't see him in the outside world anymore.

 

[lorul2]

kishimoto's explanation of tobi's "one jutsu" is simply put, a self-contradicting mess.

basically, as everyone on narutobase already knows, when kamui (and tobi's ability) sends objects from dimension A to dimension A', their relative positions stay unchanged, thus the two dimensions are structured as such that overlapping coordinate systems can be applied:

I. that if kamui warps an object at point A in dimension A, it will ALWAYS END UP at point A' in dimension A'.

Now here's the thing, kakashi, and by extension kishimoto, tells us that tobi's "suction" jutsu is THE SAME JUTSU. if so, then his teleportation (using suction), which allows him to travel and transport things he sucks in (like sasuke and karin during kage summit) across large distance instantly, can only mean the following:

II. while statement I holds true, when tobi warps an object from point A' in dimension A' BACK to dimension A, IT DOESN'T HAVE TO ARRIVE AT point A

Since "suction" is supposed to be the same jutsu as the "intangibility" trick, and we all know how tobi phasing between 2 dimensions is instantaneous, then the way Naruto hit tobi in the last chapter is completely illegit. Let's slow down and see what happens:

Naruto using bijuudama's sheer size to force tobi to phase from his position point A in dimension A, to point A' in dimension A', to which point kakashi sent naruto's bunshin waiting for him. The "smart" thing about this plan is when tobi realized the bunshin's at point A' he couldnt escape back to point A because point A is completely engulfed in bijuu dama: TOBI IS PINNED DOWN. Brilliant right? WRONG!

If suction teleportation is the "same jutsu" as intangibility, then statement II would hold true, meaning tobi can just warp back to dimension A instantaneously but NOT AT point A, but at a random point B far away from the bijuu dama!

In fact this is not the first time tobi's getting pinned down like this. the ambush explosion by konan is exactly the same. but if it's "just one jutsu" like kakashi says, then statement II dictates that tobi shouldn't have been pinned down in either case.


Conclusion: defining suction and intangibility as "one jutsu" is logically erroneous, for it would have rendered both naruto's attack and konan's ambush meaningless.

What if the dimension 'a' is timeless. Tobi travels in his dimension at regular speed yet no time is lost in the real world. That would answer your question. Eventhough its only a theory. :noc:

 

[Floydical]

I don't say this very often but i have no idea what you just explained.

I can see that it may not be explained as well as it should have been, and may have a plot hole involved, but I simply cannot follow your logic that disproves it.

I'm still gonna rep you for the effort though