Why Madara HASN'T confirmed Izuna's death

Edge

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My theory is that Madara had a plan to preserve a part of him or a substantial part of his chakra to this world. and of course it's not stated nowhere, because it is a theory like many other things are. this entire thread is based upon a theory actually.

I think it was pretty clear when I wrote that if Nagato could had used rinne tensei in any other way he could had easily revived Yahiko, anyone could disagree with the idea of Nagato reviving his best friend while knowing rinne tensei or explain why when he found out how to use the rinne tensei not even once he considered sacrificing some of his chakra to perform the jutsu, after all for Nagato bringing back just one person wouldn't be impossible, he died only after he invaded and demolished Konoha, fought a long battle against Naruto AND brought back an entire village. furthermore, it appears that Konan knows what rinne tensei is and how it can tire Nagato which makes me think they had used or attempted to use it before.
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then again there is my favourite argument, quite the opposite of what you stated, that Nagato didn't know much about the jutsu.... yet another theory. which brings us to, as you said: we don't know much about that technique. fair enough, but we do not know much about other techniques as well and yet we can observe the results and consequences. and from what is shown in the manga, so far, it seems that there is a time limit after which, is very much likely, that rinne tensei cannot bring back people.

(and what do you mean the eyes of so6p? those are Madara's? or you mean it like, the same as those of the so6p?)

We will have to see XD, a lot of jutsus have hidden secrets, especially Dojutsu (eye jutsu) that are related to the Uchiha. We've only just learned about how Susanoo had a final form; only because Madara was the only one thus far who could use it fully. Just an example.

And yeah, by S06 paths I mean Madara possesses the same eyes that shaped ninjutsu and also is a descendant of the blood that it came from (which is why he is so strong to begin with).

Although we don't know much about the Uzumaki clan's abilities as of yet, we'll have to wait and see.
 
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hashirama didnt have a death tobirama didnt have a death muu didnt have a death does this means there alive?
They all died killing each other....
No clue how Hashi died (which is a part of the tobi/zetsu mystery) and Tobirama died in the hands of the Gold and Silver squad..

get your shit straight son.
 

supino

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We will have to see XD, a lot of jutsus have hidden secrets, especially Dojutsu (eye jutsu) that are related to the Uchiha. We've only just learned about how Susanoo had a final form; only because Madara was the only one thus far who could use it fully. Just an example.

And yeah, by S06 paths I mean Madara possesses the same eyes that shaped ninjutsu and also is a descendant of the blood that it came from (which is why he is so strong to begin with).

Although we don't know much about the Uzumaki clan's abilities as of yet, we'll have to wait and see.

yeah, dude, agreed on all points. thanks for nice discussion. we will have to wait and see what's the deal with rinne tensei and exactly how powerful the rinnegan is... also, Uzumaki clan's abilities are also amazing and definitely wait for kishi to spare some more detail on them!
 

Edge

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yeah, dude, agreed on all points. thanks for nice discussion. we will have to wait and see what's the deal with rinne tensei and exactly how powerful the rinnegan is... also, Uzumaki clan's abilities are also amazing and definitely wait for kishi to spare some more detail on them!

Right back at ya dude xd
 

NarutoKage2

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bs. if he had been revived why didnt izuna use madaras eyes to revive his brother? why didnt madara teach izuna how to use the rinnegan to revive the dead? how did izuna develop s/t? and why doesnt izuna have his mangekyuo if he is tobi? u mention kakashi being revived by the rinne tensei. Newsflash: kakashi cud still use his ms after being revived. and tobi cant.
 
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Chatte

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Well I have been telling around that this whole thing is somehow ambiguous and that I strongly believe he is Tobi. Or if he's not Tobi I am pretty sure there's gonna be something big with him too as usually, when people who were talked about from the past, somehow always were brought in the present.
 

Edge

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bs. if he had been revived why didnt izuna use madaras eyes to revive his brother? why didnt madara teach izuna how to use the rinnegan to revive the dead? how did izuna develop s/t? and why doesnt izuna have his mangekyuo if he is tobi? u mention kakashi being revived by the rinne tensei. Newsflash: kakashi cud still use his ms after being revived. and tobi cant.

Laugh out loud. Let's clear a few things up here.

First of all, I'm not the one assuming Tobi is Izuna, you are. I'm just explaining why he may not be dead. But since you wanna go here, I'll go here.

For your first question, possibly because he couldn't. Rinne Tensei taxes stress on the user and possibly death, perhaps Izuna couldn't handle a Rinnegan in his weakened state after having lost his eyes which is why he sought out Nagata; an Uzumaki with vitality to be raised his whole life with the eyes.

This then brings up the question, how can Izuna use Madara->Nagato's Rinnegan now? Possibly because of Senju DNA which we know Tobi possesses (he may have acquired it after his revival) and which would increase his ability to use Rinnegan.

Izuna didn't develop S/T, it's Obito's eye, presumably with Obito's latent power.

We've never seen whether Tobi has MS or not, it's still unconfirmed. Plus it wouldn't even matter if you believe Tobi is Izuna, since he possesses Obito's eye and Madara's Rinnegan, we wouldn't see his original MS pattern anyway.

Newsflash! Rinne Tensei is different than Edo Tensei. While Edo Tensei revives one IN HIS/HER PRIME, Rinne Tensei revives one in HIS/HER ORIGINAL BODY. Izuna presumably died eyeless, which is why he was revived without his eyes and hence, his MS.

And again, you don't know if Tobi can or can't use MS.
 

The God of Wind

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Madara is speaking as if Izuna's death is in the past. It's a tricky way to word it, but basically Madara is confirming his death, but at the same time leaving his actual current status ambiguous. Basically we know Izuna DIED (in the past), but he may not actually be DEAD.

Wow, then......in the same sense I can say that Madara is Tobi and he has been alive ever since he awakened the Rinnegan even though he died after his battle with Hashirama and is now an Edo Tensei! Madara isnt making a play on words unfortunately for you and your fanboyism for the nonexistent Izuna, it means what he says, his brother left him his eyes after death, that was the only thing that was passed down to Madara from his brother.

If your memory is weak, Madara and the Tsunade were talking about inheritance from their clans, the will of fire was passed down to the Senju's, to which Madara replied, Izuna passed down his eyes(a physical object).

The point of that conversation was Eyes(Power/Physical)>Will(spiritual)

Understand Einstein?

Also, when Madara talks about rising from the dead, he is obviously talking about Rinne Tensei no Jutsu, which Nagato was supposed to use on Tobi.
 

Edge

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No need to be offensive :shrug:, and again, I never said in my original post that Izuna was Tobi. This is your assumption, not mine.

Wow, then......in the same sense I can say that Madara is Tobi and he has been alive ever since he awakened the Rinnegan even though he died after his battle with Hashirama and is now an Edo Tensei! Madara isnt making a play on words unfortunately for you and your fanboyism for the nonexistent Izuna, it means what he says

Lol, in the same sense? Your spouting things that don't correlate at all to what I was talking about. We know Madara's current status, he died and was revived. If you want to argue how Tobi can be two people at once, go ahead.

My fanboyism...it seems to me this is less of an actual argument with actual intelligent points and more of an attack on me. Shame!:flaw:

You're correct at least, Madara isn't making a play on words. If you were actually reading my posts, he's telling the truth. His brother DIED, but he doesn't acknowledge that he's currently dead, why would he?

his brother left him his eyes after death, that was the only thing that was passed down to Madara from his brother.

If your memory is weak, Madara and the Tsunade were talking about inheritance from their clans, the will of fire was passed down to the Senju's, to which Madara replied, Izuna passed down his eyes(a physical object).

The point of that conversation was Eyes(Power/Physical)>Will(spiritual)

My memory isn't weak unfortunately. They weren't only talking about inheritance from their clans, but inheritance IN GENERAL. The Senju's believe in the will of fire (love and trust being passed on) while Madara doesn't, he believes in power and might which can actually be obtained (hence earlier in the chapter, where he says power is an actual thing). So yes, it is more of a physical/spiritual argument between them.

However, I don't understand what you're trying to argue. You're basically just repeating what I said. Izuna gave/lost his eyes to Madara. What's your point?

Also, when Madara talks about rising from the dead, he is obviously talking about Rinne Tensei no Jutsu, which Nagato was supposed to use on Tobi.

Oh really? Good job figuring that out. Read my first post where I help you by posting a picture of RINNE TENSEI. Even Einstein could have figured that one out :rolleyes:
 

The God of Wind

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My point was, Hashirama died and passed on his Will.
Izuna died and passed on his eyes.

There is no hidden meaning in his words.

Izunas eyes are an example of Madara's statement about power being an actual, real thing, opposed to the Will of Fire, which is NOT A PHYSICAL THING.


Do you get what Madara was saying and why?
 

Edge

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My point was, Hashirama died and passed on his Will.
Izuna died and passed on his eyes.

There is no hidden meaning in his words.

Izunas eyes are an example of Madara's statement about power being an actual, real thing, opposed to the Will of Fire, which is NOT A PHYSICAL THING.


Do you get what Madara was saying and why?

Yes...and once again you're just repeating what I've been saying and what I just said in response to you earlier. I understand what they're talking about and I never said there was any hidden meaning in his words.

I don't know how many times I can shout Izuna died. HE DIED. The question is, is he CURRENTLY DEAD.
 
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whats interesting is madara keeps sayins izuna passed on his eyes...its sounding like it was a voluntary thing, like an agreement they had or something.
i think this agreement or w/e they had (if thats the case) was for madara to get rinnegan and then revive izuna somehow, and then they would both have the eyes.
 

NarutoKage2

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Laugh out loud.
You might consider crying when Tobi's mask comes off lol.
.Let's clear a few things up here.

First of all, I'm not the one assuming Tobi is Izuna, you are. I'm just explaining why he may not be dead. But since you wanna go here, I'll go here.
Dude, get real. Honestly answer this: would you even have made this thread if not for the question of Tobi's ID? I think we both know what you're discussing, so no need to play dumb.
For your first question, possibly because he couldn't. Rinne Tensei taxes stress on the user and possibly death, perhaps Izuna couldn't handle a Rinnegan in his weakened state after having lost his eyes which is why he sought out Nagata; an Uzumaki with vitality to be raised his whole life with the eyes.
Well, there are all kinds of possibilities. But even then there are some problems with what you're saying.
According to you're theory, Izuna might be alive because Madara used Rinne Tensei to revive him. There is no proof that this tech would bring Izuna back in the state he was just before he died. Otherwise, Kakashi would have been bleeding when he was revived in the Pain arc. But this was NOT the case with him or anyone else brought back. They were as good as new, w/o any sign of being in the same physical condition they were in just before they died.
Bolded^, correction: Madara knew Nagato, Izuna or whoever might be Tobi did'nt seek out sh!t, keeping Nagato in the picture was Madara's plan all along.
This then brings up the question, how can Izuna use Madara->Nagato's Rinnegan now? Possibly because of Senju DNA which we know Tobi possesses (he may have acquired it after his revival) and which would increase his ability to use Rinnegan.
Exactly. But then if you suppose that, please explain how in the world Izuna came across this DNA after the 2nd shinobi world war, when most of the Senju became MIA(its a mystery what happened to them).
Izuna didn't develop S/T, it's Obito's eye, presumably with Obito's latent power.
This is the most damaging possible statement to your position. Why in the world did Izuna want a random half dead kid's 2 tomoe sharingan, and not another more skilled Uchihas? This simply makes no sense at all.
We've never seen whether Tobi has MS or not, it's still unconfirmed. Plus it wouldn't even matter if you believe Tobi is Izuna, since he possesses Obito's eye and Madara's Rinnegan, we wouldn't see his original MS pattern anyway.
What are the odds that EVERY time his eyes have been shown they have only been in the tomoed state, even when he took control of the Kyuubi. Again you're climbing on a thin rope here with this Izuna might be alive/Tobi stuff. ANd the question i ask you is why did'nt Izuna have his eyes when revived by Rinne Tensei? And in the fight against Konan his other eye was revealed, it was still just a regular sharingan in apperance, nothing like Izuna's Mangekyuo.
Newsflash! Rinne Tensei is different than Edo Tensei. While Edo Tensei revives one IN HIS/HER PRIME, Rinne Tensei revives one in HIS/HER ORIGINAL BODY. Izuna presumably died eyeless, which is why he was revived without his eyes and hence, his MS.
That's what i've been trying to tell you. It is different. It does'nt make you a zombie, but there is no proof that Izuna if he were revived would'nt have his eyes.
Another fail on your part. What exactly do you mean by 'original body'? But never mind, explain why Kakashi had his ORIGINAL BODY revived in a perfectly fit condition, with all the damage done to it repaired, yet in Izuna's case the damage of losing the eyes is not repaired?
And again, you don't know if Tobi can or can't use MS.
No, but it is far more likely that he cannot than he can. That's like saying a Senju could have awoken the sharingan since Senju and Uchiha are related, but obviously its unlikely.
 

Zato

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Not true. In that scene, Madara is debating with Tsunade in that the only thing that is passed on after death from generation to generation is power. Tsunade argues that this isn't true and that love and the famous Will of Fire are passed on. Madara retorts that all they inherited was hatred.

Nothing there states that Izuna's death was Madara's motivation.

Nice try.
If you look at it that way then I can agree to some extent. But I see it in a different way. If you go back to what Tobi's story was on Madara and Hashirama you would see that Izuna's death was Madara's motivation. Madara still wanted to crush the Senju because he didn't want Izuna's death and his sacrificing of his eyes to be meaningless because of the peace pact with the Senju. Madara believed that power is the key to peace which explains why he did what he did to Oonoki and Muu and looked down on Hashirama's beliefs. His hatred and motivation is stemmed from his brothers death.
 

Edge

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You might consider crying when Tobi's mask comes off lol.

Dude, get real. Honestly answer this: would you even have made this thread if not for the question of Tobi's ID? I think we both know what you're discussing, so no need to play dumb.

Well, there are all kinds of possibilities. But even then there are some problems with what you're saying.
According to you're theory, Izuna might be alive because Madara used Rinne Tensei to revive him. There is no proof that this tech would bring Izuna back in the state he was just before he died. Otherwise, Kakashi would have been bleeding when he was revived in the Pain arc. But this was NOT the case with him or anyone else brought back. They were as good as new, w/o any sign of being in the same physical condition they were in just before they died.
Bolded^, correction: Madara knew Nagato, Izuna or whoever might be Tobi did'nt seek out sh!t, keeping Nagato in the picture was Madara's plan all along.

Exactly. But then if you suppose that, please explain how in the world Izuna came across this DNA after the 2nd shinobi world war, when most of the Senju became MIA(its a mystery what happened to them).

This is the most damaging possible statement to your position. Why in the world did Izuna want a random half dead kid's 2 tomoe sharingan, and not another more skilled Uchihas? This simply makes no sense at all.

What are the odds that EVERY time his eyes have been shown they have only been in the tomoed state, even when he took control of the Kyuubi. Again you're climbing on a thin rope here with this Izuna might be alive/Tobi stuff. ANd the question i ask you is why did'nt Izuna have his eyes when revived by Rinne Tensei? And in the fight against Konan his other eye was revealed, it was still just a regular sharingan in apperance, nothing like Izuna's Mangekyuo.

That's what i've been trying to tell you. It is different. It does'nt make you a zombie, but there is no proof that Izuna if he were revived would'nt have his eyes.
Another fail on your part. What exactly do you mean by 'original body'? But never mind, explain why Kakashi had his ORIGINAL BODY revived in a perfectly fit condition, with all the damage done to it repaired, yet in Izuna's case the damage of losing the eyes is not repaired?

No, but it is far more likely that he cannot than he can. That's like saying a Senju could have awoken the sharingan since Senju and Uchiha are related, but obviously its unlikely.


Alright, two main things that I feel you have issues with.

1) How Rinne Tensei works.

You claim that Rinne Tensei doesn't revive the soul into its deceased body. By original body I mean the body that they died in. The soul is returned to the body as it was then the person died. Look.

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Notice how each soul is returned to its original body. Kakashi isn't healed (notice the bruises), he gets up as if he'd been asleep the entire time. With the exception of mortal wounds (Fukasaku), I'd say they are revived into their original bodies as I had said.

Izuna presumably died with no eyes, therefore, if he was revived via Rinne Tensei, he's be revived eyeless.

2) Obito's eye.

Have you read Chapter 597? If not, go ahead. Although I hate to admit it, Tobi is basically admitting he got his Sharingan in the same place/time Kakashi got his. That coupled with the similar S/T technique almost confirms it's Obito's other eye.

We know Tobi collects sharingan. It isn't that far-fetched to assume he somehow (I hate to admit it) found Obito's corpse and looted his eye. With the tech that comes with it, who wouldn't want it?
 

Edge

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If you look at it that way then I can agree to some extent. But I see it in a different way. If you go back to what Tobi's story was on Madara and Hashirama you would see that Izuna's death was Madara's motivation. Madara still wanted to crush the Senju because he didn't want Izuna's death and his sacrificing of his eyes to be meaningless because of the peace pact with the Senju. Madara believed that power is the key to peace which explains why he did what he did to Oonoki and Muu and looked down on Hashirama's beliefs. His hatred and motivation is stemmed from his brothers death.

Well everyone views things differently, and I respect your view :eek:

But since we know now that Tobi isn't Madara, that whole conversation with Sasuke seems a bit voided. Until those sentiments come out of Madara's actual mouth, I wouldn't trust Tobi.
 

KidGamer65

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This is the most damaging possible statement to your position. Why in the world did Izuna want a random half dead kid's 2 tomoe sharingan, and not another more skilled Uchihas? This simply makes no sense at all.

Are you kidding me ? you say this make no sense even though it said it in chapter 597 :sy:, plus if he nedded eyes really badly I dont think he'd be picky about which ones he took.
 
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